Stealth

Could we get rework like Heroes of the Storm?

Different game..... different mechanics.

@Cynz.9437 said:Different game..... different mechanics.

Ooo, yes... but reasoning Blizzard picked to make changes could apply here also. They are changing Stealth because it's overpowered against inexperienced players and unfun to play against, while not being good enough against experienced players. Right now, you can't properly balance Thieves and Mesmers, because they have access to Stealth.

Wouldn't you welcome "visual" nerf to it, while getting buffs somewhere else at same time?

Quaggan thinks that it should be like world of warcraft where they are completely invisible far away but then when they come closer you can see them a little bit.

Currently Quaggan observes that they are deleted from the game graphically when in stealth.

@huehuehueh.5106 said:Quaggan thinks that it should be like world of warcraft where they are completely invisible far away but then when they come closer you can see them a little bit.

Currently Quaggan observes that they are deleted from the game graphically when in stealth.

Quaggan thinks they should be "visible" while they are close, yet stealth could apply defensive buffs to compensate, which could linger for a while after leaving stealth.

Stealth doesn't matter in terms of game play/ power level / balance difficulty/ fun to play against or what else.. is just a bad/broken mechanic to implement in any pvp games...but gw2 has already built 5 years of content around it..there's no way...

Some indicator (even if almost unnoticable) would be fine, especially at close range.

In return, revealed should either be removed or preserve stealth, just allowing people to see them very clearly, that way stuff like shadow arts traits will still work.

Probably wont work since just know the location of a stealthed enemy is enough to do most of your damage. If there was any hint to an exact location like in that gif then stealth would almost be useless.

i do think what the post above me suggest with stealth working with distance is interesting. maybe even an ability or trait could be reworked into or added to a class as an anti stealth mechanic like that.

@Brandon.8294 said:Probably wont work since just know the location of a stealthed enemy is enough to do most of your damage. If there was any hint to an exact location like in that gif then stealth would almost be useless.

i do think what the post above me suggest with stealth working with distance is interesting. maybe even an ability or trait could be reworked into or added to a class as an anti stealth mechanic like that.

Quaggan disagrees, whenever you use Shadow Refuge to counter targeting, prevent stomp and revive your ally it works, despite fact your enemes know you're there reviving downed ally and they can cleave. If your stealth would let them see you, but not target, nothing would change in this case... and if as compensation it would apply additional damage mitigation to you and affected allies (e.g. protection, cleanse conditions per tick and/or regenerate more HP) it would be even better.

I'd rather have stealth working like Evelynn in LoL.

Funny part is stealth is worse in SWTOR, yet is somehow healthier at the same time. You out right cannot see an Assassin until they wombo combo you.

Anyone remember the stray Deception Assassin that 100-0 you, if you weren't outright predicting them? But to be fair, if you take a SWTOR PVP noob and a GW2 PVP noob, the SWTOR with 95 percent of the time win.

Once again, different game, different mechanics. The gw2 stealth design is created around gw2 combat, not combat of other games.In wow a lot of spells require target, gw2 is different thing.Also, say we take wow for example, stealth isn't only mechanic rogues have to survive. They have for example CC chains that thieves will never have.Take stealth from LoL - once again stealth there is not main mechanic of the class. They can do fine without stealth, thief on other hand depends on it.

As far as mirage goes, do we really need to open that can of homogenization?

But let's assume for a sec Anet changed stealth to be easily determined like in other games - we would have effect as we had with DD at HoT lauch. Thief resorted to dodge spam and to less stealth (hello revs) which resulted in people crying about dodge and.... dodges and vigor being nerfed over and over and over again. I mean why not just ask to deleted thieves, be honest.

... Why would anyone use stealth if it were just a lightly coloured version of spectual walk? It'd be essentially the same as complaining about Ele PvE DPS, and suggesting all of their weapon skills should conjure rubber ducks that hit for precisely 5 damage.

@Cynz.9437 said:Once again, different game, different mechanics. The gw2 stealth design is created around gw2 combat, not combat of other games.In wow a lot of spells require target, gw2 is different thing.Also, say we take wow for example, stealth isn't only mechanic rogues have to survive. They have for example CC chains that thieves will never have.Take stealth from LoL - once again stealth there is not main mechanic of the class. They can do fine without stealth, thief on other hand depends on it.

As far as mirage goes, do we really need to open that can of homogenization?

But let's assume for a sec Anet changed stealth to be easily determined like in other games - we would have effect as we had with DD at HoT lauch. Thief resorted to dodge spam and to less stealth (hello revs) which resulted in people crying about dodge and.... dodges and vigor being nerfed over and over and over again. I mean why not just ask to deleted thieves, be honest.

Ooo, you say "stealth design is created for gw2 combat", Quaggan agrees.However, in Quaggans opinion it's poorly designed, there is no reason to not rework it, if you could reach certain goals, e.g.:a) Mechanic being more noob friendly;b) Mechanic being less frustrating to play against;c) If mechanic would have more downsides, you can add real upsides to it, especially when you could invest into stealth traits (Shadow Arts traits could be more rewarding with "weaker" stealth).

@MyPuppy.8970 said:I'd rather have stealth working like Evelynn in LoL.Yeah and she sacrifices a lot of 1v1 strength for that stealth. Not to mention she only gets it at lvl 6. It's properly balanced there while here in GW2 stealth mechanics for all classes definitely need reevaluation.

I actually really like the stealth in GW2. =-(

GW2 stealth shouldn't have existed in the first place. Thief isn't a real class; it was designed as a showcase for stealth. Mesmer got stealth because it was hamfisted into a few skills for flavor's sake. As time went on, other classes continued to get it in varied, arbitrary amounts. Given how safe it is to cast a ranged, instant burst from perfect invisibility, GW2 stealth really does nothing but take away from the game at large.

The only remotely fair instance of perfect invisibility I've seen in video games exists within Team Fortress 2, and it goes to show how many down-sides and design consideration (various overpowered incarnations of the Dead Ringer aside) that such an obscenely powerful mechanic requires in order to be considered "balanced" or "acceptable" on any level. Perfect invisibility is not something from which players should be able to launch instant, lethal attacks from range, and yet that is all that GW2 stealth has encouraged. GW2 stealth is not a well-thought out implementation of an idea: it's the result of somebody saying "We could make a stealth rogue class, right?" and then doing it without really considering how such a mechanic's presence would impact the rest of the game.

The visibility of a stealthed target close by only works in purely tab-targeted games.

All you'd need to do is play in action camera and it'd completely negate any purpose of stealth at all in this game.

Stealth just needs to be made less spammable or made higher-risk. I don't think anyone's complaining about Cloak and Dagger being overpowered despite the fact it can keep a thief stealthed indefinitely given SA because it's just super easy to counter if it's used repeatedly and has a hit condition tied to it making it unreliable.

Granted, they'd also need to reduce efficacy of low-risk damage negation and the likes if they took this mentality. because it's just as bad if not worse by design and definitely worse numerically.

@Philelectric.3769 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:... Why would anyone use stealth if it were just a lightly coloured version of spectual walk? It'd be essentially the same as complaining about Ele PvE DPS, and suggesting all of their weapon skills should conjure rubber ducks that hit for precisely 5 damage.

@Philelectric.3769 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:Could we get rework like Heroes of the Storm?

Ooo, with "visible" stealth? Quaggan could agree to that.Some of you (Thief mains) panic too much over suggestion, let me use example of Ranger - bow can't do anything to you without a target (with exception of Joko Barrage), so can't Staff with exception of Vine Surge (if you don't dodge), Ranger won't be able to hit you with warhorns Hunter's Call, sword won't directly charge on you and AA damage on it is a Joko, neither he will be able to send pets to attack you, so basicaly only GS could be handy and to truly harm you, Ranger would need to use Entangle with GS...

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:Once again, different game, different mechanics. The gw2 stealth design is created around gw2 combat, not combat of other games.In wow a lot of spells require target, gw2 is different thing.Also, say we take wow for example, stealth isn't only mechanic rogues have to survive. They have for example CC chains that thieves will never have.Take stealth from LoL - once again stealth there is not main mechanic of the class. They can do fine without stealth, thief on other hand depends on it.

As far as mirage goes, do we really need to open that can of homogenization?

But let's assume for a sec Anet changed stealth to be easily determined like in other games - we would have effect as we had with DD at HoT lauch. Thief resorted to dodge spam and to less stealth (hello revs) which resulted in people crying about dodge and.... dodges and vigor being nerfed over and over and over again. I mean why not just ask to deleted thieves, be honest.

More to the point Stealth as a mechanic was created for GW2 combat as it was at launch. The combat in GW2 has got faster and changed substantially since then, where stealth was largely something you couldn’t camp without significant investment or help with blasts in smoke fields from others. Now since the trait rework, some new skills and the increased availability of leap/blast finishers on some classes which gained a smoke field stealth is a much larger issue than it ever has been.

Stealth as a mechanic needs a rework and as part of the thief would likewise need some adjustments making depending on what was done. I doubt messmer would need much or anything done to it though as only the bad ones stealth camp.

Edit: forgot to add, as stealth is a universal mechanic consideration does need to be given across all game modes as if it operates differently in each mode it would probably be worse than now. While I don’t think stealth as a mechanic is that big an issue in PvP outside of stealth openings and cheesy camp and one shot builds it’s certainly a major issue in WvW.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The visibility of a stealthed target close by only works in purely tab-targeted games.

All you'd need to do is play in action camera and it'd completely negate any purpose of stealth at all in this game.

Stealth just needs to be made less spammable or made higher-risk. I don't think anyone's complaining about Cloak and Dagger being overpowered despite the fact it can keep a thief stealthed indefinitely given SA because it's just super easy to counter if it's used repeatedly and has a hit condition tied to it making it unreliable.

Granted, they'd also need to reduce efficacy of low-risk damage negation and the likes if they took this mentality. because it's just as bad if not worse by design and definitely worse numerically.

Personally I think forced reveal when you come out of stealth or/and stealth no longer stacking might be as good a suggestion as I’ve seen. Both have their flaws obviously and as I mentioned previously there would need to be a number of traits reworked, thieves could also lose the CD on BS if stealth times were reduced as it already has a 1/2s cast as a barrier to spamming.

I'm all for Anet to completely remove stealth all together from all the classes. It's a toxic bad design which should never exist in the Gw2. Heck, it did even exist in Gw1 and made Gw1 a healthy competitive environment.

Ever since stealth was introduced in Gw2: it had pushed out the population out of the game and wrecked all the fun and the competitive gaming scene out of the window.

Why not learn from mistakes which damaged your product? Anet answer was to expand stealth to other classes which increased more damage to the game even more. Decreasing the population even more resulting in Gw2 profits and reputation in the gaming industry declining even more.

So...No!

As long Anet embraces toxic design, stealth will remain in their toxic state

(Gw2 competitors strives to embraces healthy competitive design including stealth in their game)

Toxicity Reward-Only Design belong in Gw2, Leave healthy fair competitive risk+reward design to Gw2 competitor's.

Thanks

Ooo, with "visible" stealth? Quaggan could agree to that.Some of you (Thief mains) panic too much over suggestion, let me use example of Ranger - bow can't do anything to you without a target (with exception of Joko Barrage), so can't Staff with exception of Vine Surge (if you don't dodge), Ranger won't be able to hit you with warhorns Hunter's Call, sword won't directly charge on you and AA damage on it is a Joko, neither he will be able to send pets to attack you, so basicaly only GS could be handy and to truly harm you, Ranger would need to use Entangle with GS...

bow can't do anything to you without a target (with exception of Joko Barrage)- Thats 100% false, Rapid fire can hit a stealthed player. In fact, its not hard to hit a stealthed player with rapid fire, hunter's shot and point blank shot. same goes for all the GS skills. If you see a black powder+ heartseeker combo, lead your shots toward the black powder and you will hit the thief (even the one I'm asking you to show on the dolls where he touched you in the wrong way).

Also, sometimes the pet will follow a stealthed player and land a few hits for 1 or 2 sec.

Go play a d/p thief for a while. I suggest roaming in WvW or unranked because your job isnt to take fights in sPvP. Find decent and good players to fight and go feel the frustration of getting hit by random spams(with 1200+range) the whole duration of your stealth. You'll realise how must LoS is your friend even when you go dark.

Now Ele: they have plenty of abilities to hit some1 in stealth so stealth was never a problem for them.Guardians and necros have plenty of abilities to hit a stealthed player aswell. Stealth was never a problem for them.Rev have enough abilities to hit some1 in stealth and also have a couple of defensive abilities to prevent any burst from stealth.Warrior are pretty much in the situation ranger is but way better when we talk about easily dealing with stealth.Mesmer have stealth and a few defensive abilities to easily deal with it. It will most likely depend on Core/Chrono or MirageEngi(holo and scrapper for the most part) Have the tools to hit and defend from any stealth burst. There is even stealth in their fighting tools to deal with it

@Philelectric.3769 said:

Ooo, with "visible" stealth? Quaggan could agree to that.Some of you (Thief mains) panic too much over suggestion, let me use example of Ranger - bow can't do anything to you without a target (with exception of Joko Barrage), so can't Staff with exception of Vine Surge (if you don't dodge), Ranger won't be able to hit you with warhorns Hunter's Call, sword won't directly charge on you and AA damage on it is a Joko, neither he will be able to send pets to attack you, so basicaly only GS could be handy and to truly harm you, Ranger would need to use Entangle with GS...

Quaggan thinks you've never played Ranger, because otherwise you would know that if Rapid Fire or Point Blank have no target you can side step and they will... miss, thats because they are firing in straight line like Bristlebacks in PvE. Try to shoot those with disabled auto targeting (just to imagine target is stealthed) while "aiming" without target at moving mob at higher distance and watch your arrows hit air...

If they were to change stealth, they would have to change a lot of spells. Which is a lot of work. A LOT. For what exactly? So few noob players and players without map awareness can have more advantage? I mean honestly? Don't we already have enough builds every season which carry inexperienced players to rating where they don't belong? You really want to help them? I would prefer Anet to invest their resources into making pvp better (MM, rank/gain loss system, templates, class balance split between pve and pvp etc.).

I never saw any decent player complaining about stealth in this game. It is probably most dynamic and more thought through implementation of stealth across all games i have played before (and i played quite few of them).

@Burnfall.9573 said:I'm all for Anet to completely remove stealth all together from all the classes. It's a toxic bad design which should never exist in the Gw2. Heck, it did even exist in Gw1 and made Gw1 a healthy competitive environment.

Ever since stealth was introduced in Gw2: it had pushed out the population out of the game and wrecked all the fun and the competitive gaming scene out of the window.

Why not learn from mistakes which damaged your product? Anet answer was to expand stealth to other classes which increased more damage to the game even more. Decreasing the population even more resulting in Gw2 profits and reputation in the gaming industry declining even more.

So...No!

As long Anet embraces toxic design, stealth will remain in their toxic state

(Gw2 competitors strives to embraces healthy competitive design including stealth in their game)

Toxicity Reward-Only Design belong in Gw2, Leave healthy fair competitive risk+reward design to Gw2 competitor's.

Thanks

Oh the irony coming it from rev that was literary designed (and made OP) to sell HoT xpac. What is truly more toxic, huh?