Weaver is OK, but... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Weaver is OK, but...

So here's my real problem with the weaver. If the Ele had weapon swap it basically sums up a weaver in amount of skills, however weapon swap would allot player more control over how they fight and make skills more readily available. Instead of just element shuffle you could change weapon sets to better handle changing situations. As it stands right now all they've really done is make the class more complicated to get to the skills you need and when you need them.

Comments

  • Yea that one of the main complains players have with weaver. Its a new playstyle that limits you options when attunement swapping. Its a new elite that is clunky compared to core elementalist. Using a new dual skill suppose to be impactful and they never felt that way. I want the dual skills buffed to the point that using a new dual skill would amaze you. Half of the dual skill types that felt that way but were not powerful enough. The muddy and chill type of dual skills were underpowered. I like that idea of finding new rotation to excel in pvp with the various weapon sets.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nah, I'm not in favor of weapon swapping. They just need a better method of swapping attunements for the Weaver. Now maybe a later spec could be based around weapon swapping, but that's not what the Weaver is about.

  • No. No weapon swap please. That wouldn't be useful at all. The attunements are designed to be Fire: Power/Condition, Air: Power/Precision, Water: Defensive/Healing, Earth: Defensive/Denial.

    What would be the point of say running Sword/Focus+Staff or Scepter/Dagger? You would attune to an element, swap weapons and still be in that same element with similar skills to what you just switched out from because each attunement is designed similarly across all weapons. Adding weapon swap will just add unnecessary complications and balancing issued to Weaver.

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  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2017

    @Ulion.5476 said:
    Using a new dual skill suppose to be impactful and they never felt that way. I want the dual skills buffed to the point that using a new dual skill would amaze you.

    Comparatively, Thief does it right. Every dual skill they have is not like the other, and is unique in its own way.

    Shadow Shot (gap closer and blind), Shadow Strike (Shoot and shadowstep backwards), Death Blossom (dodge while inflicting bleeds, unique animation), Pistol Whip (perhaps the least creative one), Unload (channeled projectile nuke), Flanking Strike (evade and boon strip). They're all unique in what they do, and you'll never see a thief single-weapon skill that can bring anything similar to the table.

    Weaver I don't recall much but dagger had a poor man's Burning speed (fire + water), another Frozen Burst (Air+fire); Staff had so many aoes... oh so many. Fire + earth, Fire + water (also healed?), Earth + water. Scepter had boring and clunky projectiles (air + water and fire + water, latter had an evade attached because why not), a channeled beam like Arc Lightning (air + fire, although it does more damage), a Comet that stuns (air + earth), another Comet that nukes and burns (Fire + earth) but you had to stay still while channeling lol...

    Overall, they're rather weak and uninspired. I don't see much hope at this point, it's not like they're gonna redesign the spec with 5 days left until release :(

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  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rain.9213 said:
    No. No weapon swap please. That wouldn't be useful at all. The attunements are designed to be Fire: Power/Condition, Air: Power/Precision, Water: Defensive/Healing, Earth: Defensive/Denial.

    What would be the point of say running Sword/Focus+Staff or Scepter/Dagger? You would attune to an element, swap weapons and still be in that same element with similar skills to what you just switched out from because each attunement is designed similarly across all weapons. Adding weapon swap will just add unnecessary complications and balancing issued to Weaver.

    No, look, there are clear uses for weapon swapping in the abstract. I don't think it has a role in the Weaver, since the Weaver is about "weaving" two elements together, but it would definitely have a role to play in potential future Ele specs. Yes, each element has it's own role, but so does each weapon. Dagger is about short range DPS and mobility. Staff is about long range AoE. Scepter is about long range direct damage, etc. There would definitely be a benefit in starting a fight in a Staff build, and then after laying some stuff down you swap to Daggers and move in to dance, then maybe switch back to range to deal with another enemy.

    Again, you would want a trait line designed to support this playstyle, it would likely have its own limitations added in, but it would be a viable and interesting set of options for a potential Ele build.

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Comparatively, Thief does it right. Every dual skill they have is not like the other, and is unique in its own way.

    Yeah, although to be fair, the Thief has like 1/4th as many Dual skills as the Weaver.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not for weapon swapping... Roughly, we should have enough skills to be able to cope with anything. If we can't, then the skills are bad. And if you feel like you need to switch weapon for something else, then that "else" means "better" and so the skills are bad.

    The only "weapon swap" related thing I'd like to see is : have the weapon swap become an elemental swap. For example : you are attuned Fire - Air, you hit "weapon swap", and you become attuned "Air - Fire". I think it already has been suggested, but it won't hurt to ask again.

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  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    I'm not for weapon swapping... Roughly, we should have enough skills to be able to cope with anything. If we can't, then the skills are bad. And if you feel like you need to switch weapon for something else, then that "else" means "better" and so the skills are bad.

    That's not true though. Everything is situational. Let's talk very simply. Let's say you have only two skills, one that deals a little damage in an AoE pool at a long distance, and another that deals a lot more damage, but in a short range cone. Which is the better skill to slot? Neither, they each have their uses, balanced properly. The longer range one is better when staying too close to an enemy is dangerous, or there are a lot of targets you need to swap between, or when you just need to stay in a limited area. The shorter range one is better when it's possible to get and stay close to the target and keep using it safely. Neither is ideal in the other's situation, so being able to swap between those options is very useful. And ability that has all the best traits is just unbalanced, every balanced ability has trade-offs to encourage variety.

    The previous Eles were balanced around giving up that advantage in exchange for having more variety within the rangers they chose, but that doesn't mean that there would be no benefit to Eles having weapon swapping options.

    The only "weapon swap" related thing I'd like to see is : have the weapon swap become an elemental swap. For example : you are attuned Fire - Air, you hit "weapon swap", and you become attuned "Air - Fire". I think it already has been suggested, but it won't hurt to ask again.

    I started a similar thread a few below this one, but it's gotten a lot of downvotes. My idea was to have two bars of elements showing, one controlling MH and the other controlling OH, and you could swap between them using weapon swap, allowing you to focus on the skills you wanted to switch.

  • On weapon swapping. Add that to the current Ele and you get a better class. Not only do you get the ability to shift elements, you also get versatility in range and spells. Since both systems can manipulated separately the player has more control and access to needed skills on the fly. Plus once you've used up skills on one weapon swapping refills skill. You may want a dagger for stacking fights vs a staff for more AOE situtaions. Now your ele can better react to changing game dynamics. Putting everything on attunement swapping means double the time to get to needed spells. Staff is seriously going to suffer under this system since fire 4 and 5 are extremely situational, 5 it's more that it's been nerfed into uselessness. To get the bonuses from fire your main attunement needs to be fire that's two attunement swaps to get access to fire's attunement bonus.

    Don't get me wrong I want the weaver to be fun, adding complexity to the class isn't going to complimentary to anyone but elite/single profession players. So for those who can track all the changes and react well to changing situations it won't be a problem. For the average player having many different classes and toons it will be a hindrance to enjoying the game.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its all power dmg and its block-able that is weaver at the end of the day as well as ele so its very lacking. They realty needed to make the burst skills on weaver to be unblock-able or at least add in a way to make them unblock-able. As well as more condis.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Without weapon swap I can't realistically see myself playing anything other than Staff or Scepter in most scenarios. Dagger is alright because it has a bit of range but the 130 melee range of the Sword skills is very limiting when most classes can swap to a ranged alternative. Playing Condi Revenant this was incredibly apparent as we only had Mace/Axe for Condi prior to Renegade and it was very, very limiting for much of the game. I could still see sword in a few scenarios but general play just don't see it (especially with it's absurdly slow attack chains).

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodiak.3281 said:
    Without weapon swap I can't realistically see myself playing anything other than Staff or Scepter in most scenarios. Dagger is alright because it has a bit of range but the 130 melee range of the Sword skills is very limiting when most classes can swap to a ranged alternative. Playing Condi Revenant this was incredibly apparent as we only had Mace/Axe for Condi prior to Renegade and it was very, very limiting for much of the game. I could still see sword in a few scenarios but general play just don't see it (especially with it's absurdly slow attack chains).

    Honestly I don't understand this.
    You mention staff and scepter, so I believe you are talking about PvE...
    When doing open world pve, there is no scenario where, if needed, you can't back off, get ooc and swap to a ranged weapon.
    When doing instanced content, there is no scenario where you don't know what you are going to deal with and can swap weapons before encounters appropriately.

    So I really fail to understand why the weapon swap is seen as the only way to adapt to the whole ranged/melee thing...

    On PvP/WvW this is much more critical with opponents using area control (necro aoes for example) or projectile block, but those are never long enough that I felt like not having weapon swap was a big disadvantage. Just hold on for a second, maybe use the time to buff/heal yourself and get back at it.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like Ele because it requires a learning curve and some skill. Please don't dumb this class down because you don't want to put any effort into learning attunement rotations.

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  • @lLobo.7960 said:
    Honestly I don't understand this.

    I mostly play PvE (whatevers) and WvW (Staff backline).

    Honestly speaking, I ain't got time to back out and swap weapons or track which weapons need range when I can simply use a ranged weapon all the time. If Build Templates were a thing and swapping Traits/Gear/etc were all tied together in a second I might be more inclined to do so but they aren't. It's a huge pain in my kitten when I swap to Scepter/Focus for camp resecures and a bit of roam only to find I forgot to swap X or Y traits.

    Weapon swap isn't the only way to adapt, the other way to adapt is simply always use weapons that have a ranged component. Even the 300 range on Daggers can be enough in many cases. It's viable to do this because these weapons do full damage regardless of range so it's not like Staff or Scepter suddenly lose 20% damage by being in same range as Sword.

    In WvW having only 130 range puts you squarely into the melee frontline which honestly looking at Weaver I dunno why you'd bring that over Sc/W (or Staff) support Tempest to better support the frontline group (Dagger would add cleave but Scepter is better blasts/aoe).

    Again unless Sword really blows out the damage meters I just don't see it's range limitations really worth it.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodiak.3281 said:
    In WvW having only 130 range puts you squarely into the melee frontline which honestly looking at Weaver I dunno why you'd bring that over Sc/W (or Staff) support Tempest to better support the frontline group (Dagger would add cleave but Scepter is better blasts/aoe).

    Again unless Sword really blows out the damage meters I just don't see it's range limitations really worth it.

    I think sword will be bad for zerg fights due to the low tagging capacity.
    A frontline weaver could be viable as support with the heals on sword water, the stance heal and the bonus from the elite...
    I don't think this will be better than tempest though.

  • Sword weaver seems better as a roamer rather than a zerg.

    PLEASE, NO WEAPON SWAP! I really think that we must adapt to pre attune into a defensive element with weaver, we must notice that now we can use ofensive skills and defensive ones with the correct attunement combinations without any delay, i dont really see the problem if, per example i need obsidian flesh from focus, i just attune into earth before i think i will need this skill, then attune into an offensive element so i have it ready.

    Also, as an option, we have unravel if we are in a urge to use an off hand skill (this skill should be a stun breaker too).

    And weaver is like learning to play ele again, the dual mechanic adds difficulty to the class but also more possibilities.

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  • @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Kodiak.3281 said:

    I think sword will be bad for zerg fights due to the low tagging capacity.
    A frontline weaver could be viable as support with the heals on sword water, the stance heal and the bonus from the elite...
    I don't think this will be better than tempest though.

    I can't see a frontline weaver as viable in any spec really. There's simply better existing options no matter how you build it. Sticking to the melee comparison topic, Dagger is simply superior in that setting due to range, better cleave, and arguably better support. The fact that Weaver is largely "selfish" survivability and DPS gain just make the whole deal worse compared to Tempest as you mentioned.

    Weaver might see some use on Staff Backline but I'm going to have to test it extensively before I'm convinced.

  • I'm not saying weapon swap is a must, merely that with added complexity to the most complex class isn't something that makes me want to play that class more. Better control of the elements would have been fun, using mixed elements would have been more of what I would look forward to. Setting elements by offhand element and mainhand element would have worked. Now you can have certain 4 and 5 skills which are usually the utility slots able to shift without changing the mainhand skills in it's current setup the utility slots are two attunement shifts away from specific utility skills.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    Weaver aside, I'd love to have weapon swap on my elementalist at some point. Having both Staff and D/F available in WvW would be awesome.

    The amount of skills is mind-blowing though -- going from 20 to 40 for land skills alone (we don't have two water weapons at the moment). That set of 40 is extreme compared to any other profession. There may be issues when you consider the amount of healing available in water.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @juno.1840 said:
    Weaver aside, I'd love to have weapon swap on my elementalist at some point. Having both Staff and D/F available in WvW would be awesome.

    The amount of skills is mind-blowing though -- going from 20 to 40 for land skills alone (we don't have two water weapons at the moment). That set of 40 is extreme compared to any other profession. There may be issues when you consider the amount of healing available in water.

    I'd like to see this too, but I'd expect, and really want it to come with some ele-swapping limitations, so that you could like switch weapons at will, but there would be serious restrictions on how easily you can swap elements, like maybe you could only slot two at a time to choose from, or each weapon could only have two elements attached to it, or something along those lines.

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