How to balance Scourge — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How to balance Scourge

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited December 3, 2017 in Necromancer

The primary aim of these changes is to:

  • Tone down Scourge's raw power level in PvP and WvW
  • Increase parity between Sand Savant and Scourge's other two grandmaster traits in WvW and sPvP.
  • Improve Support options for Scourge
  • Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge.
  • Increase scourge's disengage and escape options.
  • Do all of the above without needing skill splitting and without negatively affecting Scourge's PvE DPS potential.
  • Still leave scourge as a competitive option in PvP and WvW.

Now that I have laid out my goals for these changes, here are the proposed changes themselves:

  1. Sand Savant only increases the size of shades, Sand Savant will no longer increase the size of effects spawned at the scourge.
  2. Shade auto attacks are only casted by shades and not at the scourge's position.
  3. The healing power contribution to the Barriers applied by Sand Cascade, Sand Flare, and Desert Empowerment is significantly increased.
  4. Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple.
  5. Punishment skills now only convert boons into torment, instead of torment + cripple.
  6. Demonic Lore now applies Cripple in addition to it's previous effects.
  7. The Shade recharge reduction component of Sand Savant has been moved to Feed from Corruption.
  8. Ghastly Breach's cooldown has been increased to 120 seconds.
  9. Trail of Anguish now applies 3 stacks of Stability. (up from 1) Trail of Anguish no longer converts boons.
  10. Sand Swell cast time reduced to 0.5 seconds. (down from 1 second) Sand Swell no longer converts boons.
  11. Abrasive Gift now converts 1 condition into a boon instead of cleansing.

The purpose of changes #1 and #2 are to make it so that Scourges now need to utilitize their shades for offense, instead of simply having 300 radius killzone perpetually centered on the scourge's position. This should make scourge less of shutout hard counter to melee classes, while still leaving Shades as a effective area denial tool.
The purpose of changes #3 and #11 is to make more support focused scourge better to open up a new role for scourge.
The purpose of changes #4 and #5 is because having every torment applying skill natively come with it's own cover condi is excessive, and the lack of a rate limit on how fast cripple can be applied results in current gen Scourge being able to apply so much cripple as to be able to maintain 100% uptime even against builds that are running enormous amounts of -cripple duration and impairment removing skills.
The purpose of #6 is to offset the removal of cripple from all other skills by allowing scourge to trait back into cripple access, but since Demonic Lore has a ICD, the cripple access from this trait will not be as overpowering as current gen Scourge's is. This change also makes Demonic Lore more desirable in PvP.
The purpose of change #7 is to cut down on the dominance of Sand Savant as a trait, moreover the recharge reduction makes much more sense on 3-shade scourge than it does on Savant Scourge given that 3-shade scourge needs that recharge reduction much more.
The purpose of #8 is to bring Ghastly Breach inline with Plaguelands. (Currently Ghastly Breach is just a significantly better version of Plaguelands as far as PvP is concerned)
The purpose of #9 and #10 is to give scourge a little better escape capabilities, while cutting down on the superfluous amounts of boonrip available to scourge.

Sanity is for the weak minded
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Comments

  • Yuyuske.7182Yuyuske.7182 Member ✭✭✭

    I kinda like these.

    I'd honestly be OK with a DPS drop on Scourge if A.) Reapers got a DPS buff (which they need anyways), and B.) Scourge got better support capabilities. I may be in the minority, but I'd be fine with Scourge being a support class (just so long as it's actually useful / necessary, and not shelved because druids do it better).

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    The killzone around the scourge is a major problem for sure and in my opinion is the perfect example of the powercreep that PoF has brought to the game. Does anyone remember the tempest mechanic? Overloads. They are basically an AoE that you do around you and they do have quite a few similarities with how the shade effects work. To be fair 1 shade effect isn't as powerful as an overload, but you can stack them to make them just as strong. The difference is that you also get to apply the effects around the shade instead of only around you, while also being unable to be interrupted, all while you can also use your weapon skills because the shade effect is not a cast. I get that you sacrifice your death shroud "health" for this but at least you get something out of barriers so it's not a full sacrifice, especially since barrier has the benefit that allies can heal you through it.

    To be frank, I think that the way scourge is designed is quite ridiculous and I have no idea how Anet thought that this would be a support spec. It's always conditions and corruptions for necro no matter what the spec is meant to accomplish, and reaper was a great example of this until the revamp. Where is the healing? Where are the boons except for might? Where is a decent unique buff or something? I thought these scourges where supposed to reject Joko, not embrace his ways. Seriously, what's going on here?

    The suggestions here seem solid, but Anet balances at a glacial pace. Even if they decide to change scourge to having healthier gameplay and more support options today, it will take them a couple of years before they accomplish it.

  • I don't play scourge in pvp so I can't really comment too much about that aspect. However speaking from a PvE perspective, the second change would absolutely neuter scourge dps.

    1. Shade auto attacks are only casted by shades and not at the scourge's position.

    This essentially means that any movement will destroy scourge dps. It used to be fine before the change where shade pulses burning but since burning damage was so high, even if boss is moving the damage remains to be the respectable. After the nerf and change to increased torment on desert shroud, it means that you have very low dps down time as scourge in pve because you can just literally run at boss at melee range if they are moving. So without having it pulse from yourself, it would be a very very bad change without some sort of serious compensation for it.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Scourge is a dead class in wvw. Long live Backline Revenant.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Right now the barrier is just plain useless in my opinion.
    I think the barriers should turn into health after the 2 second phase instead of just disappearing (or at least half of it). Maybe even lower the amount of barrier that can be applied but enemies still has the chance to dps down it and necros now got a better support utility/self survivability.

  • Crius.5487Crius.5487 Member ✭✭✭

    AOE attacks should be extremely powerful against a group but also deal less damage to each target than a single target attack. This means you should only want to use an AOE attack against a group instead of a single target skill. The problem with scourge is the AOE attacks deal just as much damage if not more than any single target attacks that scourge has to offer. Most attack skills are also just that, AOE. My personal opinion in balancing scourge for PvP and WvW is not just looking at the class itself but revamping how AOE is done in the game across all classes and abilities.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    this changes are not good in my opinion.

    Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple

    scourge is by far slowliest class in the game. and you want delete cripple from scourge? the only way to catch enemies. how you want beat a ranger if you cannot slow him? he will use superspeed invis and leaps to kite you and bomb you on 1500 range and you will never land a hit.

    Ghastly Breach's cooldown has been increased to 120 seconds.

    ghastly breach recharge on 120 sec? a very immobile skill that hit an enemie max 1 time before he dodged out of the aoe.
    look to mirage elite (cumulated 1350 range port+3condi remove+9 confu), or warrior elite (200 boonstrip), or the holosmith prime light beam (massive dmg+1200 range +launch), there are many strong elites next to ghastly breach

    Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge

    its just the counter to the superfluous amount of boons all classes cast in the game have.
    boonshare meta in hot was kitten, so its good that scourge AND WARRIOR counter it.
    how you want stop an enemy with perma stabi, perma resistance, perma protection without boonstrip???

    finally necro is

    -> last place in mobility rank
    -> last place in casting boons (also stability)
    -> last place in casting heal
    -> last place in sustain (no blocks, no invuls, no invis)
    -> not only 1 good weapon on necromancers in comparison to all other classes

    thiefs -> massive numbers of dodges, ports, invis, also a block WHILE massive dmg (can one-shoot people)
    mesmers -> massive invuls, invis, stunbreaks, ports, blocks/evades WHILE massive dmg in condi AND power (can one shot people)
    warriors -> massive invuls, blocks, leaps while massive dmg (massive dmg hits on on axe and GS)
    holosmith -> every 2 sec 600 range leap in photon forge, 900 range leaps on rocket boots bring him very high mobility, massive dmg on photon skills and elite (1200 range + knockback + 60 sec cd - less than ghastly breach)
    i could continue with it for ranger (massive sustain and range and mobility), firebrand (endless support, burndmg), ele (a lot more dmg than scourge in every scenario, while have more support in heal AND booncast).

    only rev ist weak class atm.

    the only reason people cry because of scourge is, that people want back skilless boonshare yolopush meta which is countered by warri and scourge. i can only say l2p. who just push into enemies and spamming 1 have no right to win any fight. thats skilless and deserved to get punished.

    How is boonshare mindless when you actually have to push more than one button to actually keep those boons outs?

    Are you sure you even PvP son?
    I don't think you do
    If you so, that mindset is pretty kitten warped.
    Having two of the same class, AND same spec (from a PVP perspective) is not healthy for gameplay.
    Having one class suffocates a point for, at least, ten to fifteen seconds is not healthy.
    Though, I will agree if these changes are mostly for WvW/PvP then I say they are good.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    this changes are not good in my opinion.

    Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple

    scourge is by far slowliest class in the game. and you want delete cripple from scourge? the only way to catch enemies. how you want beat a ranger if you cannot slow him? he will use superspeed invis and leaps to kite you and bomb you on 1500 range and you will never land a hit.

    Ghastly Breach's cooldown has been increased to 120 seconds.

    ghastly breach recharge on 120 sec? a very immobile skill that hit an enemie max 1 time before he dodged out of the aoe.
    look to mirage elite (cumulated 1350 range port+3condi remove+9 confu), or warrior elite (200 boonstrip), or the holosmith prime light beam (massive dmg+1200 range +launch), there are many strong elites next to ghastly breach

    Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge

    its just the counter to the superfluous amount of boons all classes cast in the game have.
    boonshare meta in hot was kitten, so its good that scourge AND WARRIOR counter it.
    how you want stop an enemy with perma stabi, perma resistance, perma protection without boonstrip???

    finally necro is

    -> last place in mobility rank
    -> last place in casting boons (also stability)
    -> last place in casting heal
    -> last place in sustain (no blocks, no invuls, no invis)
    -> not only 1 good weapon on necromancers in comparison to all other classes

    thiefs -> massive numbers of dodges, ports, invis, also a block WHILE massive dmg (can one-shoot people)
    mesmers -> massive invuls, invis, stunbreaks, ports, blocks/evades WHILE massive dmg in condi AND power (can one shot people)
    warriors -> massive invuls, blocks, leaps while massive dmg (massive dmg hits on on axe and GS)
    holosmith -> every 2 sec 600 range leap in photon forge, 900 range leaps on rocket boots bring him very high mobility, massive dmg on photon skills and elite (1200 range + knockback + 60 sec cd - less than ghastly breach)
    i could continue with it for ranger (massive sustain and range and mobility), firebrand (endless support, burndmg), ele (a lot more dmg than scourge in every scenario, while have more support in heal AND booncast).

    only rev ist weak class atm.

    the only reason people cry because of scourge is, that people want back skilless boonshare yolopush meta which is countered by warri and scourge. i can only say l2p. who just push into enemies and spamming 1 have no right to win any fight. thats skilless and deserved to get punished.

    How is boonshare mindless when you actually have to push more than one button to actually keep those boons outs?

    Are you sure you even PvP son?
    I don't think you do
    If you so, that mindset is pretty kitten warped.
    Having two of the same class, AND same spec (from a PVP perspective) is not healthy for gameplay.
    Having one class suffocates a point for, at least, ten to fifteen seconds is not healthy.
    Though, I will agree if these changes are mostly for WvW/PvP then I say they are good.

    Edit: Wait, I know you haven't PVP'd recently, because you said Ele has more damage than a scourge and trying to paint them as the meta spec right now. Lmao, yea no.

    Tempest doesn't have 'lots of damage'
    Weaver doesnt have 'lots of damage' with support either.

    Both have fairly low damage.
    And if you are playing core fresh air, you are glass my friend.
    If you are trying to make justification against boons, at least have a sliver of information that is not biased trash.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    this changes are not good in my opinion.

    Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple

    scourge is by far slowliest class in the game. and you want delete cripple from scourge? the only way to catch enemies. how you want beat a ranger if you cannot slow him? he will use superspeed invis and leaps to kite you and bomb you on 1500 range and you will never land a hit.

    And under my changes, scourge can still trait back into cripple access. The issue is that current gen scourge applies so much cripple that it can maintain 100% cripple uptime even against foes that are specifically counterbuilt against impairment conditions. t's not uncommon to see 30+ seconds of cripple being laid down by a scourge. Oh and current gen scourge's cripple spam is all baseline to the class, no build investment necessary.

    Ghastly Breach's cooldown has been increased to 120 seconds.

    ghastly breach recharge on 120 sec? a very immobile skill that hit an enemie max 1 time before he dodged out of the aoe.
    look to mirage elite (cumulated 1350 range port+3condi remove+9 confu), or warrior elite (200 boonstrip), or the holosmith prime light beam (massive dmg+1200 range +launch), there are many strong elites next to ghastly breach

    Ghastly Breach is a 100% guaranteed decap every 60/75 seconds. No other class even has guaranteed decap skills let alone one on a 60 second cooldown. Moreover even by elite skill standards Ghastly Breach is enormously overloaded. It applies burning, torment, cripple, and slow, while ripping boons and granting might to allies.

    Oh and lets not forget that Ghastly Breach makes Plaguelands completely redundant, since Ghastly Breach applies almost as much raw damage, but Breach is frontloaded, larger radius, with shorter cast time, and shorter cooldown. I mean shoot Ghastly Breach has a shorter base cooldown than Chilled to the Bone does and CttB isn't even a DPS skill.

    Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge

    its just the counter to the superfluous amount of boons all classes cast in the game have.
    boonshare meta in hot was kitten, so its good that scourge AND WARRIOR counter it.
    how you want stop an enemy with perma stabi, perma resistance, perma protection without boonstrip???

    We have more than enough boonhate on the base necro, there is no call for Scourge's insane AoE ripping power. Also no class has perma resistance, and no class has perma stability. Tempest is the only class with perma protection.

    There is a reason Scourge has a 100% pick rate in Tournaments.

    -> Ghastly breach

    in PvE, i think we dont need tlk about lack of dmg in pve from necro -> so this skill dont need a nerf there
    in wvw, is much space to evade. so this skill tick max 1 time on an enemy before he left the aoe (1 stack burning, 2 stack torment is far away from one shot) -> no nerf needed
    in pvp its maybe very strong because of small capture points, but nerf cd to 120 sec (+60% cd) is completely disproportional. spellbreaker elite removes 8 times more boons than necro elite and have 90 sec cd...

    and everything makes all other necro elites redundant because necro elites are trash. lich is trash after it get changed. plague is trash after it get changed, minion was ever trash. and your argument: "one elite is trash and no one want use it, so trash all other elites too, to bring it back to game" this is not really an argument.

    -> cripple
    1.)removals:
    daredevil-> unhindered combatant, perma remove of cripple
    all thieves have access to "dont stop" (in Acrobatik) -> 80% duration decrease to cripple
    engis -> mecha leggs (in inventions): -33% cripple
    druid-> natural stride: 33% reduce on cripple
    soulbeast-> dolyak stance (direct remove)
    chrono-> time marches on: 25%reduce to cripple
    warrior-> dogged march: duration decreased by 33%
    guard and ele have in general massive condiremove
    rev-> riposting shadows direct removal
    and more
    2.) leaps,teleports
    every leap or teleport ignores cripple.

    warriors, thieves, mesmers, holosmiths, eles, revs, rangers, guards have enough of those skills to move very fast WHILE they are crippled. and WHILE crippleduration ends.

    there are MANY counters to cripple, also the possibility to use bufffood, -20% condi duration.

    => so no reason to nerf

    -> boonhate on core necro
    what have booncorrupt on core nec to do with scourge?

    Traitlines:
    all scourges have to play the same 3 traitlines:
    -course-> just f2 booncorrupt can be skilled (8 sec cd on f2)
    -soul reaping (no booncorrupt here)
    -scourge (just booncorrupt on unending corruption-> 1 corrupt 10 sec cd on f1 with sand savant, thats not really much)

    skills:
    you can choose scourge skills OR core necro skills, but not all together.
    e.g.
    you can use "corrupt boon" and well of corruption from core nec.
    or you can choose "trail of anguish and dessicate from scourge. but why scourge is overpowered because he have all of this skillls? he just can choose 2 of them. third utility skill is usually spectral armor or something like that.

    so if you would delete booncorrupt from punishment skills, what would change? the amount of booncorrupt would finally bee the same because scourge would change to core nec skills...

    you should see, booncorrupt is speciality of necromancer, so its legit than necro has access to it. also boo ncorrupt itself dont kill people.
    -X stacks might changed to weakness
    -fury changed to blindness
    -protection to 1 stack vulnerability

    does weakness,blindness and 1 stack vulnerability kill you? no...

    other classes can easy kill you if you get corrupted because of OP dmg from SB,Mirages,Thiefes, holosmiths..... but than you should nerf their dmg and not necro...

    -> necro has 100% pick rate in tournements

    there are a lot of other classes, have 100% pick rate in tournements too. also no argument...

  • ilmau.9781ilmau.9781 Member ✭✭✭

    Scourge is epic weak it need to be buffed, just go for classical boon corruption/conversion for each shade pulse on each shade skill and whenever you corrupt a boon you also apply burning and transfer a condition on each foe you hit, please add some more mobility too and breakstuns and some pulsing stability. Ty.

    oh, and since we are here i would also kindly ask to nerf the Reaper a bit more it is still decent in open world pve would be nice if you finish off whatever is left of it.

    Kresh Bloodghast -

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    -> cripple
    engis -> mecha leggs (in inventions): -33% cripple
    warrior-> dogged march: duration decreased by 33%
    druid-> natural stride: 33% reduce on cripple
    chrono-> time marches on: 25%reduce to cripple

    First off traits that reduce the duration of cripple don't mean anything to Scourge because Scourge's cripple application is that high. Scourge can easily maintain 100% cripple uptime even on builds that have all of these: Relentless Pursuit, Hoalbrak Runes, and Speed of Shadows

    Clearing Scourge's cripple isn't even that useful because it's immediately reapplied due to the fact that all F skills apply cripple baseline, and all punishment skills apply cripple baseline, in addition to Scepter 2's cripple, and of course swiftness corruption.

    @Zero.3871 said:
    -> cripple
    1.)removals:
    daredevil-> unhindered combatant, perma remove of cripple
    all thieves have access to "dont stop" (in Acrobatik) -> 80% duration decrease to cripple
    soulbeast-> dolyak stance (direct remove)
    chrono-> time marches on: 25%reduce to cripple
    guard and ele have in general massive condiremove
    rev-> riposting shadows direct removal
    and more

    First off Scourge flat out hardcounter's ele, because elementalist do not have any form of burst condi remove, and even under my changes Scourge would still win against elementalist. Moreover base guard and DH also lack the necessary cleansing to survive a scourge. Firebrand despite having more condi clear than any other class in the entire history of the game can only survive a scourge for limited periods of time before having to disengage.

    2.) leaps,teleports
    every leap or teleport ignores cripple.

    Which would mean my changes to Scourge's cripple access would not effect scourge against leap/teleports.

    there are MANY counters to cripple, also the possibility to use bufffood, -20% condi duration.

    I'm still trying to find that food slot on my sPvP build panel.

    => so no reason to nerf

    With my changes scourge will still win every single matchup it currently wins. The difference is that with my changes Scourge will not be mandatory pick for all pvp formats.

    -> boonhate on core necro
    what have booncorrupt on core nec to do with scourge?

    Because Scourge has access to everything that core necro does? Necromancer already has more than enough corrupts on the base class to be competitive. Loading a entire elite spec with boonrip is superfluous.

    Traitlines:
    all scourges have to play the same 3 traitlines:
    -course-> just f2 booncorrupt can be skilled (8 sec cd on f2)
    -soul reaping (no booncorrupt here)
    -scourge (just booncorrupt on unending corruption-> 1 corrupt 10 sec cd on f1 with sand savant, thats not really much)

    Path of Corruption is 2 boons every 6 seconds because you forgot about Vital Persistence.

    Also what you aren't accounting is the area covered by Shade Corrupts. A Savant Scourge hitting F2 with his shade will be applying Path of Corruption to a 282,743 * 2 = 565,486 unit^2 area of the field.

    skills:
    you can choose scourge skills OR core necro skills, but not all together.
    e.g.
    you can use "corrupt boon" and well of corruption from core nec.
    or you can choose "trail of anguish and dessicate from scourge. but why scourge is overpowered because he have all of this skillls? he just can choose 2 of them. third utility skill is usually spectral armor or something like that.

    so if you would delete booncorrupt from punishment skills, what would change? the amount of booncorrupt would finally bee the same because scourge would change to core nec skills...

    Here is what Meta Scourge has:
    * Unending Corruption (1 corrupt, 300 radius on shade drop, AoE, 3 charges @ 10.05 second charge cooldown)
    * Path of Corruption ( 2 corrupt, 300 radius on shade and Scourge, AoE, 6 second cooldown)
    * Trail of Anguish (1 boon rip per strike, AoE, 25 second cooldown)
    * Scepter auto chain (1 corrupt per chain, single target)
    * Sand Swell (1 boon rip, AoE, 35 second cooldown)

    • Ghastly Breach (1 boon rip per pulse, 5 total pulses, AoE, 75 second cooldown)

    Note: WvW Scourge runs more rips than the above list.

    Compared to Reaper (which would be meta if it wasn't completely usurped by Scourge) Scourge is just a massive amount of totally uncalled for power creep. There is no need for having every single punishment skill to rip boons, there is no need for Ghastly Breach to have a shorter cooldown than CttB. There is no need for literally everything Scourge does to be done in massive 300 radius AoEs.

    there are a lot of other classes, have 100% pick rate in tournements too. also no argument.

    Class representation in the last mouthly tournament:
    Elementalist: 1
    Engineer: 7
    Guardain: 21
    Mesmer: 12
    Necro: 21
    Ranger: 11
    Revenant: 0
    Thief: 11
    Warrior: 11

    All of those necros where Scourges. The only class with equivalent representation is Firebrand, all other classes have half or less of Scourge's representation. The reason Firebrand has equivalent pick rate to Scourge is because Firebrand is the only support class that can function in a teamfight against a Scourge.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Rudra.6932Rudra.6932 Member ✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Zero.3871 said:
    the only reason people cry because of scourge is, that people want back skilless boonshare yolopush meta which is countered by warri and scourge. i can only say l2p. who just push into enemies and spamming 1 have no right to win any fight. thats skilless and deserved to get punished.

    Scourge has plenty ways to corrupt boon. The OP is talking about superfluous boonstrips which are unintentional or accidental boon strips. The only punishment skill that a scourge uses to actively convert boon is Ghastly breach. Everything else is a defensive utility and used as such. The boon strip is a side effect - a collateral damage. It is not an active play and it piles on even more into the Scourge's button spamming, lack of active play style. And talking about skill less boonshare yolo push meta - it has just been replaced by a skill less button mashing boonstrip meta.

    Watch a Scourge+FB go against another Scourge+FB on a node and see how the fight goes. It all comes down who can press buttons more and out-corrupt the other party. Mind you, not out skill, but out corrupt and out spam.

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    1. Sand Savant only increases the size of shades, Sand Savant will no longer increase the size of effects spawned at the scourge.
    2. Shade auto attacks are only casted by shades and not at the scourge's position.
    4. Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple.

    I think point 1 will be sufficient. Keeping the radius around the scourge unchanged from Sand Savant would instantly change the Scourge MO of a 300 radius kill zone that happily rushes onto a node forcing people off it to a strategic gameplay where you need to choose where you want to go and where you want to place your shade.

    1. Trail of Anguish now applies 3 stacks of Stability. (up from 1) Trail of Anguish no longer converts boons.

    Trail of Anguish needs to punish people for stepping into it in some form. I suggest that it should apply torment and cripple if people step on it and remove the boon conversion from it. It is a telegraphed path that should be avoidable. Additionally, I would suggest that Trail of Anguish now pulses swiftness on the user for the duration of the skill effect as it does for other people running on the trail. It should still give only 1 stack of stability to other people who step on it, so that stability stacks are not blown out of proportions with increase in the number of scourges.

    However, the rest of the punishment skills other than Ghastly breach should not be doing accidental boon conversion.

  • Vitali.5039Vitali.5039 Member ✭✭✭

    @Animi.4617 said:
    I think the barriers should turn into health after the 2 second phase instead of just disappearing (or at least half of it).

    It could be one of the most broken mechanic then.

  • Swadow.6213Swadow.6213 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    It is simple to nerf Scourge in PvP, reduce damage of burnign by 50% and make all conditions (including nerfed burning) deal their damage over 100% more duration. No longer will they suddenly get 50% health back because of a burning/torment tick and Parasitic Contagion. No more of the condition spikes. All conditions are now balanced and so is Scourge.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    Class representation in the last mouthly tournament:
    Elementalist: 1
    Engineer: 7
    Guardain: 21
    Mesmer: 12
    Necro: 21
    Ranger: 11
    Revenant: 0
    Thief: 11
    Warrior: 11

    All of those necros where Scourges. The only class with equivalent representation is Firebrand, all other classes have half or less of Scourge's representation. The reason Firebrand has equivalent pick rate to Scourge is because Firebrand is the only support class that can function in a teamfight against a Scourge.

    No, i just see that scourge is the only effective way to counter all the boons, thats the reason people take it so often. if there were other classes with that possibility, no one would play scourge...and at its current state, its very easy to stun and bomb scourges (you need skilled teamplay for that but it seems most people are overstrained with playing with skill). his f-skillcast is very limited to its lifeforce. in pvp scourge start with 0 lf, activating ALL f skills cost 66% or something like that of whole lf. so you cannot brainless spam it.

    shades can get blocked, or use invul (like mirage).

    in wvw scourges lack of mobility has way higher impact than in pvp. decreasing castime on sand swell would change nothing.
    in wvw i see deadeyes, weavers, mesmers one shot people with 20-30k dmgs, where is this power creep? kitten 30k...on mirage and deadeye while that you have tonns of invis or invuls to stay alive after your hit.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Rudra.6932 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    @Crinn.7864 said:
    1. Sand Savant only increases the size of shades, Sand Savant will no longer increase the size of effects spawned at the scourge.
    2. Shade auto attacks are only casted by shades and not at the scourge's position.
    4. Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple.

    I think point 1 will be sufficient. Keeping the radius around the scourge unchanged from Sand Savant would instantly change the Scourge MO of a 300 radius kill zone that happily rushes onto a node forcing people off it to a strategic gameplay where you need to choose where you want to go and where you want to place your shade.

    The shade auto could probably be left at the Scourge, particularly given that as another poster pointed out, the on-scourge auto is necessary in PvE. I still insist on the cripple removals however, not because scourge shouldn't have cripple, but because the current rate of application is overbearing to the extreme.

    1. Trail of Anguish now applies 3 stacks of Stability. (up from 1) Trail of Anguish no longer converts boons.

    Trail of Anguish needs to punish people for stepping into it in some form. I suggest that it should apply torment and cripple if people step on it and remove the boon conversion from it. It is a telegraphed path that should be avoidable. Additionally, I would suggest that Trail of Anguish now pulses swiftness on the user for the duration of the skill effect as it does for other people running on the trail. It should still give only 1 stack of stability to other people who step on it, so that stability stacks are not blown out of proportions with increase in the number of scourges.

    However, the rest of the punishment skills other than Ghastly breach should not be doing accidental boon conversion.

    Trail of Anguish already does strike damage + 4 sec burning to enemies that step in it (in addition to it's other effects) I intended to simply removing the boon conversion and leave the burning application. 4 seconds of burning per strike is enough I think, given everything else the skill does even without the boonrip.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Vitali.5039Vitali.5039 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    activating ALL f skills cost 66% or something like that of whole lf. so you cannot brainless spam it.

    Spam skills is always bad but the major culprit of Scourge's spamming is Nefarious Favor, wich turn condition into boons and (if traited) corrupt boons and increase life force for every boon corrupted. And spamming Fx skills isn't required to be successful.

    @Zero.3871 said:
    in wvw i see deadeyes, weavers, mesmers one shot people with 20-30k dmgs

    And about the damage of Mesmers and Thieves..

    skills should follow the law of "biggest tell = biggest burst/effect" and class the one of "high survivability = low damage/mobility" but this seems true only for certain professions.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dont think recommended changes from previous posts are good. That would make a roaming scourge even worse

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    daredevil-> unhindered combatant, perma remove of cripple

    Perma.
    Somebody kill that guy.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    daredevil-> unhindered combatant, perma remove of cripple

    Perma.
    Somebody kill that guy.

    Unhindered combatant used to give pretty much immunity to movement impairing conditions. It was half the reason it changed.

    Still a strong trait for that purpose just not completely overbearing as it was before.

  • So, changes 1 and 2 would hurt pve with change one basically removing scourge support which is what anet seems to want scourges role to be. The changes you propose are far too harsh for pvp as well, when range already counters scourges too well in my opinion, which is the tradeoff of scourges countering heavy boon classes and all melee classes.

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    Those changes are just a giant nerf. I wouldn't call them balance at all. If you want to beat a scourge range them or avoid the initial condi bomb. :)

  • So, what exactly makes us more (or even as) viable in (high-end) PvE content? We are already the least asked for in raids and T4 (CM) fractals. These suggested changes will only change that we'll be kicked on the spot from now on!

    Let me help you:
    1. Double burning stacks on stationary foes (e.g. via the traits: Dhuumfire, Sadistic Searing and Demonic Lore) (which won't affect PvP/WvW players for pretty much 99% of the time, and if it does, you're just a bad player)
    And if you want to tone down the boon removal also in PvE (cause you mentioned avoiding splitting), which in my opinion is a very bad idea (it's pretty much the only thing that makes the Necro/Scourge a tiny bit useful)!!! Then at least do the following:
    2. Remove boon removal on the Mesmer sword auto-attack: Mind Spike
    3. Increase damage and/or applied condi stacks on boonless foes, for it's already harder to strip boons, you should be awarded if you achieve to strip them clean (also much harder to achieve in WvW/PvP than PvE!)

  • @Renita.7824 said:
    So, changes 1 and 2 would hurt pve with change one basically removing scourge support which is what anet seems to want scourges role to be. The changes you propose are far too harsh for pvp as well, when range already counters scourges too well in my opinion, which is the tradeoff of scourges countering heavy boon classes and all melee classes.

    Support Scourge is not a thing anywhere. As proposed in point 1, with Sand Savant not affecting Scourge centered ring's radius (radius only, not target cap), the scourge can still "support" 5 people with barrier while using a single sand Shade using Sand Savant trait and additional 5 people near the scourge, but not in a 300m radius, but a 150m radius. I don't see how that is a problem if and when Anet increases the support potential of scourge.

    I agree that point 2 is unnecessary. The shade auto attacks needs to remain otherwise it will remove scourge from viability.

    The biggest problems with scourge right now are -
    1. Very low cool down boon corruption F2 skill which is instant activation with instant effect.
    2. A big radius of kill zone around the scourge which renders proper placement of shades inconsequential in most team fights.

    A reduced radius around the scourge will address both these issues.

    Now I am not different class main complaining about how op scourge is. Necromancer is my main class and I play both Scourge and Reaper and I can see these glaring problems in Scourge. I know for a fact, that even if the radius around me is not affected by Sand Savant, I can still turn team fights with a scourge and the original scourge radius is still good enough for melee deterrence while not completely shutting it down. I know that I am already weak against ranged pressure if I am caught in the open and this change will not affect that in any way.

    The radius reduction around the scourge will go along way in bringing back a semblance of intelligence in scourge gameplay while providing intelligent counterplay options. As it stands now, if I log in to a scourge, I press buttons and stuff die. It is a snooze fest.

  • @Zero.3871 said:
    this changes are not good in my opinion.

    Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple

    scourge is by far slowliest class in the game. and you want delete cripple from scourge? the only way to catch enemies. how you want beat a ranger if you cannot slow him? he will use superspeed invis and leaps to kite you and bomb you on 1500 range and you will never land a hit.

    How about you think, how to run away from class that :
    1. Caps whole point alone with AoE almost as big as the point.
    2. Already corrupts your swiftness to cripple without cripple on that kitten alone.
    3. Requires almost no PvP experience. Necro literally has to understand basics. I protec point I win. Necro doesnt have to think about running to decap other point because he doesnt have to face Necro.

    Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge

    its just the counter to the superfluous amount of boons all classes cast in the game have.
    boonshare meta in hot was kitten, so its good that scourge AND WARRIOR counter it.
    how you want stop an enemy with perma stabi, perma resistance, perma protection without boonstrip???

    By nerfing boon spam for classes that over perform, not by creating class that counters all 8 other classes.

    finally necro is

    -> last place in mobility rank

    For good reason. Imagine mobile Scourge flying from point to point decapping it alone with only counterplay being Deadeye camping it.

    -> last place in casting boons (also stability)

    I think boon corruption makes up for that kitten plenty.

    -> last place in casting heal

    Why would you give class pocket support? Isnt firebrand baby sitting you enough?

    -> last place in sustain (no blocks, no invuls, no invis)

    This point kitten kills me man XD. NECRO HAS 19K BASE HEALTH. I KNOW ITS SURPRISE BUT ONLY CLASS THAT DOES HAVE 19K BASE HP TOO IS kitten WARRIOR. ON TOP OF THAT NECRO HAS SHROUD OR kitten SHIELD. No blocks? Let me fear all the kitten away. No invuls? Barrier aint good enough huh? Especially since barrier blocks condi dmg while inluv wont save you. No invis? Not even thieves use invisibility so whats your point?

    -> not only 1 good weapon on necromancers in comparison to all other classes

    What yo dou mean not 1 good weapon? Scepter necro stacks condis for nothing. No projectile to evade or block. Simple auto attack.

    thiefs -> massive numbers of dodges, ports, invis, also a block WHILE massive dmg (can one-shoot people)

    But cant necros.

    mesmers -> massive invuls, invis, stunbreaks, ports, blocks/evades WHILE massive dmg in condi AND power (can one shot people)

    Yea fair this class needs some toning down just like necros.

    warriors -> massive invuls, blocks, leaps while massive dmg (massive dmg hits on on axe and GS)

    Who runs axe? Also he got nerf to resistance so he shouldnt be problem for necros.

    holosmith -> every 2 sec 600 range leap in photon forge, 900 range leaps on rocket boots bring him very high mobility, massive dmg on photon skills and elite (1200 range + knockback + 60 sec cd - less than ghastly breach)

    Not only holosmith is forced to play melee in holo forge, he gets boons you can corrupt, and when he doesnt look after heat he will literally half kill himself. Very high mobility would be nice counter to necro if he literally couldnt stand in his cancer fields as big as my mom.

    i could continue with it for ranger (massive sustain and range and mobility), firebrand (endless support, burndmg), ele (a lot more dmg than scourge in every scenario, while have more support in heal AND booncast).

    Firebrand needs nerfs. I dont care about rangers but man. Man. Ele has more dmg than scourge in every scenario. In what world? Are we talking about full zerk fresh air scepter focus ele? THAT DOESNT HAVE SAID SUPPORT AND DIES FROM 2 HITS? Or are we talking about auramancer. Which thanks to you now rather than healing teammates kills them thanks to necro. Or perhaps you are talking about Sw/Dagger weaver. Which at best hits for 3k with Fire 2 skill.

    only rev ist weak class atm.

    Herald is currently sitting on 57% win rate, you really dont play Pvp at all.

    the only reason people cry because of scourge is, that people want back skilless boonshare yolopush meta which is countered by warri and scourge. i can only say l2p. who just push into enemies and spamming 1 have no right to win any fight. thats skilless and deserved to get punished.

    How is THIS better? Only difference is that one was defensive while this is offensive build. Current necro is literally in same state auramancer tempest was. If tempest was your problem then, then necro is your problem now.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This point kitten kills me man XD. NECRO HAS 19K BASE HEALTH. I KNOW ITS SURPRISE BUT ONLY CLASS THAT DOES HAVE 19K BASE HP TOO IS kitten WARRIOR. ON TOP OF THAT NECRO HAS SHROUD OR kitten SHIELD. No blocks? Let me fear all the kitten away. No invuls? Barrier aint good enough huh? Especially since barrier blocks condi dmg while inluv wont save you. No invis? Not even thieves use invisibility so whats your point?

    I can only say that you are overestimating health and underestimating active defense and this does not deserve you as a gw2 player. Block, invuln, evade and dodge allow you to prevent infinitely mre damage than what a few point of health can prevent. It also allow you to prevent hard CC from making you take even more hit than you intended. So please just stop with your "high health pool are OP", it only show how poor your understanding of the defensive mechanisms of the game is.

    A large health as only defensive mechanism:
    Pro:

    • allow you a few more seconds to handle condi pressure
    • ease your mind at the thought of being hit

    Con:

    • make you utterly weak against hard CC
    • force you to take all the hits and the procs from those hit
    • the more health you got the harder it is to refill it

    These cons outweight the pro in gw2 dynamic gameplay. Even the pros are a weakness, since it make you as a player more "dull" in front of the beating that the opponent give you and that is a flaw that easily lead you to your fall.

    On topic:
    The focus of the proposed change on scourge's tools and not on core tools is a step in the right direction in order to balance the scourge. However, first thing to do would be to balance scourge shroud skills. The awfully short cool downs in comparison to death shroud and the fact that there is no cast time make for pretty strong skills. If it were me I'd get rid altogether of the shade and push everything onto the scourge while making F1 a spamable ranged aoe skill with cast time and after cast.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Renita.7824 said:
    So, changes 1 and 2 would hurt pve with change one basically removing scourge support which is what anet seems to want scourges role to be. The changes you propose are far too harsh for pvp as well, when range already counters scourges too well in my opinion, which is the tradeoff of scourges countering heavy boon classes and all melee classes.

    Except a scourge can simply queue with a support FB or support Tempest and completely nullify the "weakness to ranged classes" meanwhile no support is capable of keeping a melee alive against a scourge for a reasonable amount of time.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Looks like Anet's approach to balancing condi bombing (something Scourge is really good at) is to enforce the original idea of conditions being sustained DoT's, not bursting. I don't think this bodes well for Scourge.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    These cons outweight the pro in gw2 dynamic gameplay.

    That's just a comparison of how long you'll live if you sit there and soak damage with high vitality vs spamming invuln frames. Of course option 2 is better.

    In a real gw2 dynamic environment there's more multiple more factors which you left out:

    • How much counterpressure are you outputting when you're soaking damage with high vitality?
    • How hard is it for your attacker to negate this counterpressure?
    • How much stability and healing can you have pumped in to you from outside sources if you're going to be guaranteed to cause Hiroshima if you manage to stay alive?

    This is really where your pros and cons comparison is asking the wrong questions.

    The answers:

    • Scourge does unprecedented counterpressure, more than compensating for a weaker form of defense by soaking damage with vitality.
    • Scourge counterpressure is very hard to negate, with two 300 radius blasting zones of instant cast conditions & corruptions.
    • Scourges being able to all-in to AoE counterpressure makes any healing and rolling Stability a Firebrand grants a Scourge 200% effective compared to the value of healing anything else. This symbiotic relationship is the true cause of the mega imbalance.

    From a PvP balance perspective, there are two possibilities:

    • One, Scourge would need a different role than AoE counterpressure and therefore not auto-carry fights so massively when it is propped up by stab/heal life support. Re-worked to a competitively strong support, duelist, or given other utility.
    • Two, Scourge needs to have easier to negate counterpressure. Either much more easily avoided, or much more skillful to land, or both.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well I'm answering to the general "necro" side of the defensive question, and I agree with you that scourge need a lot of polish.

    My issue is more it's wrong claim that health point is a good defensive option. It's not. Like you say if you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand minipet that take care of him.

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    From a PvP balance perspective, there are two possibilities:

    • One, Scourge would need a different role than AoE counterpressure and therefore not auto-carry fights so massively when it is propped up by stab/heal life support. Re-worked to a competitively strong support, duelist, or given other utility.
    • Two, Scourge needs to have easier to negate counterpressure. Either much more easily avoided, or much more skillful to land, or both.

    I totally agree with you on those point. The way anet designed the scourge really impacted to much PvP gamemodes. It's understandable that they want to tune down boons, afterall they are trying to do so since a long time already, however, in my opinion, the scourge put this "aspect" off limit. It would have been better if we had seen more e-spec with access to boon strip (like they did with the spell breaker) than having the massive toxic cloud which is the scourge. If you add the fact that most scourge shroud skills can not be interrupt, it's totally ridiculous. There is no deny that the scourge at this point is a cancer for PvP that need a lot of work from the balance team, however, Im afraid that the whole mechanism need to be reworked at this point (like the shroud which need rework since launch...)

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038

    If you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand

    You know that in a solo contest Scourge beats every meta build in the hands of equally top end players? The problem with doing that is it reduces your value significantly to be away from Firebrand and multiple enemies, as your team will auto lose vs. enemy Scourge & Firebrand if their Scourge is not squandering its value by merely winning a 1v1.

    I don't see the basis for your claim that a solo contest leaves a Scourge vastly outshined.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    @Dadnir.5038

    If you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand

    You know that in a solo contest Scourge beats every meta build in the hands of equally top end players? The problem with doing that is it reduces your value significantly to be away from Firebrand and multiple enemies, as your team will auto lose vs. enemy Scourge & Firebrand if their Scourge is not squandering its value by merely winning a 1v1.

    I don't see the basis for your claim that a solo contest leaves a Scourge vastly outshined.

    My basis is not the scourge but the mean. I'm saying it again, health point are not a better mean of survivability than active defense. You are blinded by the scourge spec, it's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about large health pool vs active defense in a general manner. So again, health point as a mean of defense, in a solo contest, will be vastly outshined by active defense as a mean of defense. This is a direct answer to those that claim that having a large health pool is a strong defense. It is not. A large health pool is a finite defense while active defense have infinite potential.

    Now, if you read the later half of my post, you should have seen that I agree with you that the scourge (and yes here I'm talking about the scourge) need some tune down in it's mechanism. For me it's unbelievable that all those shroud scourge skills manage to end up being instant skills and even that there is no way to counter the desert shroud. At the very least, an interrupt should be able to stop the desert shroud.

  • Ivantreil.3092Ivantreil.3092 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Zero.3871 said:

    -> cripple
    1.)removals:
    engis -> mecha leggs (in inventions): -33% cripple

    I can't really speak for the other classes, but for my main Engi, don't bring that kitten argument of "there's an existing counter, so it's fine", take a kitten look to our meta builds, inventions has been dumped from being a viable option, because we don't have enough damage for like spec in survival traits, we need the offensive traits or we hit like a noodle, if you are gonna argue counters, at least make sure it's being kitten use on this meta.

  • Lexan.5930Lexan.5930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    The primary aim of these changes is to:

    • Tone down Scourge's raw power level in PvP and WvW
    • Increase parity between Sand Savant and Scourge's other two grandmaster traits in WvW and sPvP.
    • Improve Support options for Scourge
    • Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge.
    • Increase scourge's disengage and escape options.
    • Do all of the above without needing skill splitting and without negatively affecting Scourge's PvE DPS potential.
    • Still leave scourge as a competitive option in PvP and WvW.

    Now that I have laid out my goals for these changes, here are the proposed changes themselves:

    1. Sand Savant only increases the size of shades, Sand Savant will no longer increase the size of effects spawned at the scourge.
    2. Shade auto attacks are only casted by shades and not at the scourge's position.
    3. The healing power contribution to the Barriers applied by Sand Cascade, Sand Flare, and Desert Empowerment is significantly increased.
    4. Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple.
    5. Punishment skills now only convert boons into torment, instead of torment + cripple.
    6. Demonic Lore now applies Cripple in addition to it's previous effects.
    7. The Shade recharge reduction component of Sand Savant has been moved to Feed from Corruption.
    8. Ghastly Breach's cooldown has been increased to 120 seconds.
    9. Trail of Anguish now applies 3 stacks of Stability. (up from 1) Trail of Anguish no longer converts boons.
    10. Sand Swell cast time reduced to 0.5 seconds. (down from 1 second) Sand Swell no longer converts boons.
    11. Abrasive Gift now converts 1 condition into a boon instead of cleansing.

    The purpose of changes #1 and #2 are to make it so that Scourges now need to utilitize their shades for offense, instead of simply having 300 radius killzone perpetually centered on the scourge's position. This should make scourge less of shutout hard counter to melee classes, while still leaving Shades as a effective area denial tool.
    The purpose of changes #3 and #11 is to make more support focused scourge better to open up a new role for scourge.
    The purpose of changes #4 and #5 is because having every torment applying skill natively come with it's own cover condi is excessive, and the lack of a rate limit on how fast cripple can be applied results in current gen Scourge being able to apply so much cripple as to be able to maintain 100% uptime even against builds that are running enormous amounts of -cripple duration and impairment removing skills.
    The purpose of #6 is to offset the removal of cripple from all other skills by allowing scourge to trait back into cripple access, but since Demonic Lore has a ICD, the cripple access from this trait will not be as overpowering as current gen Scourge's is. This change also makes Demonic Lore more desirable in PvP.
    The purpose of change #7 is to cut down on the dominance of Sand Savant as a trait, moreover the recharge reduction makes much more sense on 3-shade scourge than it does on Savant Scourge given that 3-shade scourge needs that recharge reduction much more.
    The purpose of #8 is to bring Ghastly Breach inline with Plaguelands. (Currently Ghastly Breach is just a significantly better version of Plaguelands as far as PvP is concerned)
    The purpose of #9 and #10 is to give scourge a little better escape capabilities, while cutting down on the superfluous amounts of boonrip available to scourge.

    I like what your trying to do here. I would love that the top line of scourge give us more boons. I would love to see protection when traited for sand savant, and rejuvenation, or a small heal to desert empowerment. I find that blood healing is really good, when you can predict damage taken by allies. I would love to see scourge be able to put out small heals with their barrier similar to how elle puts out healing with aura's as well as all their added bonus effects. I would love to see the healing range of transfusion increased to 600 units to allow better healing in a raid scenario.

    Removing cripple kind of kills the flavor of torment in that it does more damage as people move and cripple makes them move slower so the idea is more damage from point a to b. I would like to see the cripple last longer so people have to cleanse it more in spvp.

    I dont like the idea of changing sand savant not increase the area around the necro. I play support in raids sometimes and being able to barrier 2 separate locations and hit 10 people is really important.

    Sand swell shorter cast time would be so desired. YES please anet give us this .5 cast time :). Also maybe 900 range?????

  • Lexan.5930Lexan.5930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    @Dadnir.5038

    If you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand

    You know that in a solo contest Scourge beats every meta build in the hands of equally top end players? The problem with doing that is it reduces your value significantly to be away from Firebrand and multiple enemies, as your team will auto lose vs. enemy Scourge & Firebrand if their Scourge is not squandering its value by merely winning a 1v1.

    I don't see the basis for your claim that a solo contest leaves a Scourge vastly outshined.

    My basis is not the scourge but the mean. I'm saying it again, health point are not a better mean of survivability than active defense. You are blinded by the scourge spec, it's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about large health pool vs active defense in a general manner. So again, health point as a mean of defense, in a solo contest, will be vastly outshined by active defense as a mean of defense. This is a direct answer to those that claim that having a large health pool is a strong defense. It is not. A large health pool is a finite defense while active defense have infinite potential.

    Now, if you read the later half of my post, you should have seen that I agree with you that the scourge (and yes here I'm talking about the scourge) need some tune down in it's mechanism. For me it's unbelievable that all those shroud scourge skills manage to end up being instant skills and even that there is no way to counter the desert shroud. At the very least, an interrupt should be able to stop the desert shroud.

    I totally agree with this. Health is not a defensive aspect in the same way that boons, dodges, and abilities are. Having a high health pool but with no way to refill it means nothing. Or having mobility as well. Warrior has the same heath pool as necro, higher armor and more mobility and lower cooldowns. Even if they can't heal well on demand, they can get away and have active defenses negating physcal damage and condi damage on demand.

    Other classes have invulnerabiliy or the ability to get out if things are too hot. Necro has lmited acess to defensive boons, and has a very limited mobility so that many other classes that can chase down have a large advantage. Necro's high health poool doesn't do much f we can't refill is anywhere near as quickly as say engi's or elle's or even guardians.

    The idea that a necro can "outlast" opponents as anet says they want, is hard to actually realize in spvp, or even at all. Necro's, even with barrier, still rely on teammates, especially in a teamfight where the CC is crazy and getting away is not an option.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    What I see here is a lot of necro hate.

    How come mesmers can be gods in pvp guardians rangers thieves eles, and warriors, but necros are relegated to being trash tier in every mode but WvW? And now you want them to be trash there.How is that fair?

    The reason I don't pvp in Spvp is because I cannot find a good team mate who wants to play and will heal me to keep me alive, and in Spvp my team usually ignores me and throws me under the bus and the enemy team rushes me and insta Gibs me.Necros need some sorta way to counter other classes, because being able to be hard countered by all other classes sure isn't fair.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How is that fair? Since when is MMO about being fair?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    How is that fair? Since when is MMO about being fair?

    Because if you nerf necro and make them trash tier, they are going to be useless all around.

    World of Warcraft has roles, Everquest has roles for every class, and necro needs a role.Its not balanced if only a couple of classes are mandatory and the rest are niche.

    Solution:Make every class niche.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    How is that fair? Since when is MMO about being fair?

    Because if you nerf necro and make them trash tier, they are going to be useless all around.

    World of Warcraft has roles, Everquest has roles for every class, and necro needs a role.Its not balanced if only a couple of classes are mandatory and the rest are niche.

    Solution:Make every class niche.

    OK, but that doesn't say anything about fair ... WoW, Everquest ... those MMO's don't apply here. They have a completely different game philosophy and design. How do you make ever class niche in a game without trinity? Even in trinity games, you don't have niches for classes ... unless there are so few classes that EACH fills the unique role only it has.

    People need a greater appreciation for how different GW2 is ans what that means for their personal ideas of what that means for class design. Before raids, class design in GW2 was a PURELY CONCEPTUAL one; there was never any need for 'fair' or 'balance' as we understand it because content didn't require people to choose specific classes.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    I believe the problem with gw2 is that there is no trinity.How do you balance these classes?

    Also I,ver heard that if it wasn't about dps race it would open up desiring others.If necros and others do less dos but are consistently desired for something, I could live with that, but other classes can provide more stuff and do it way better, so why bring necro? Yeah sure we got our epidemic, but if epi gets nerfed, might as well just delete necro class.

    I also wish anet would try to balance the core necro and elites so we can have multiple roles.I like playing multiple classes, but opening up possibility for one more role just in case is nice for those who love necro.It feels kinda weird how our previous elite was nerfed to make way for our new elite, and how they didn't think ahead how it would effect pvp.If scourge was as broken previous to the nerfs, what were they thinking? They need to do more beta testing.

    Also:In fractals coni turn and boon corrupt is super useful.If it was as useful in raids, that would be wonderful.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    The answer is simple ... the classes don't need to be balanced in a game where the key factor in class differentiation isn't based on roles. Holy trinity ensures a class has a 'place' in the game, so the developers need to ensure those classes do their jobs. GW2 doesn't do that. Also, Anet hasn't created an environment that does not require performance equivalence among the classes. That design philosophy has allowed players the freedom to make class and build decisions freeing them of performance-analysis burden other games have. It's a VERY casual friendly approach and it was intended.

    The ACTUAL problem is that you and others can't break free of the traditional notions other MMO's have indoctrinated you into; that balance (or more accurately, performance equivalence) is important. In this game, it's not; when Anet refers to balance, it's based on their idea of how the game should work, not that there are variations in performance between or within classes that need to be removed. This upcoming Wintersday patch is a great example; the change to conditions into being a more sustained damage source is not borne out of the idea that any class is over or under performing ... it's based on the fact that Anet wants conditions to require build up and maintenance to get long-termed sustained damage from them ... that's a boarder game mechanics consideration.

    You're trying to force a concept on a game that has intentionally discarded it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    My basis is not the scourge but the mean. I'm saying it again, health point are not a better mean of survivability than active defense. You are blinded by the scourge spec, it's not what I'm talking about here.

    So you claim that overall you objectively see Scourge in full context and largely agree that Scourge needs a rework into an equally powerful role but less to do with teamfighting and relying on Firebrand.

    You can understand my confusion in saying that due to Scourge's defense type, without Firebrand it gets outshined when solo. If you understood the Scourge in full context, you'd understand why that's false - Blood Scourge is possibly the best fighter in 1v1 / small scale despite its lack of active avoidance which is made up for.

    Just in general, lacking a certain thing doesn't disqualify you from excelling in any or all roles. Looking at a profession from the full potential is the only valuable perspective.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

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