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Should there be a GW 3? - [Merged]

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  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    GW2 though, its not a full MMORPG yet either, one aspect it is missing, is Open World PvP.
    Open World PvP is what full MMORPG's like EQ and WoW have. Something GW2 and ESO lacks to become a real full MMORPG.

    One of the greatest strengths of the Guild Wars series is that they don't just copy bad ideas from previous MMOGs.

    In WvW, I'll gladly jump someone trying to take a camp or insert myself into two other servers fighting, but forcing that dynamic onto the entire game world just means open-world PVE players become a lot more skittish and frustrated, with no actual payoff for anyone involved. Jumping in to help someone who's in over their head is a lot more fun.

    There were maybe 20 people in all of WoW who used "open world pvp" to do anything cool, and hundreds called them trolls and cried on the forums because of it. It's a false dream and a mechanical dead end, just like "make players rest for a few minutes to regain mana" or "if you kill people you get 'PK' karma and then we can send you to virtual jail."

  • "Only 'real' 'full' MMOs have open world PvP"
    Bah! Says who?

    Certainly not the gaming sites.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No, there should not be a GW3.
    Arenanet barely manages to continue developing GW2.

    If Arenanet was to suddenly put GW2 into maintenance mode and start working GW3, where would the money come from?
    Do you think many people would put money into a game that's already set not to get any more updates?

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    gw3 already exist. And already people play that gw3. I don't want say the official name of that game, to prevent promotion.
    So, question solved.
    As for me gw2 is more fun. So I stay here.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    GW2 though, its not a full MMORPG yet either, one aspect it is missing, is Open World PvP.
    Open World PvP is what full MMORPG's like EQ and WoW have. Something GW2 and ESO lacks to become a real full MMORPG.

    Oh boy, yet another Open World PvP thread.

    I haven't seen one of them for at least 5 minutes, so I guess it was due...

    GW2 has PvP. There is no need for it to be included in open world content. Not sure how this invalidates GW2 as a "full MMORPG". What, exactly, is the industry definition of that?

    Interestingly, the industry definition of "MMORPG" is quite loose.

    Since the term literally means "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game" the only requirements are:

    1) Be an online game (One that you connect to servers for, as opposed to having to host your own lobbies)
    2) Be a multiplayer game
    3) Have a persistent area that many people can co-exist in
    4) Allow players to use avatars they control to interact with the game (I.e. "Be an RPG" which in of itself is essentially synonymous with "Be a game" given how much you can stretch the term)

    GW2 ticks all of the relevant boxes for being an "MMORPG" which even encompasses things like ARPG's such as Path of Exile or the asian style of "Lobby Simulators" like Soulworker, Phantasy Star Online 2 or FFXIV (Yes, it has an open world. But 99.99% of what you do in game ends up being the Duty Finder or a Story quest that puts you into a solo instance). Even shooters like Destiny 2, Global Agenda and Warframe are considered to be "MMORPG's" (Even though these too are "Lobby Simulators")

    As such, there's no real requirement for specific gameplay elements for the title to be applied. Since, it's merely a genre of game rather than a description of said games.

    Even with all this...

    GW2 literally does have Open World PvP. It's called WvW. Which takes place in an Open World and involves Player versus Player combat. Just because it doesn't involve ganking PvErs that have 0 desire to PvP (Anymore at least... Back when WvW was needed for World Completion on the other hand...) doesn't make it any less Open World PvP.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Should there be a GW3?

    Probably. But it's unlikely that ANet have the funds to make a new game.

    This is why I don't think GW3 will happen anytime soon. I don't think Anet currently has the resources or the desire to make a new GW3 MMORPG, which is why they have announced another expansion. I don't mind this at all and will be happy if there are only more expansions for GW2 still.

  • I believe it's time for a new game engine. One that works more modular and can more easily be upgraded to work with new and upcoming technical innovations. GW2 is getting old and more and more laggy. ANet only set GW1 to maintainance mode once they realized that the current engine would not support their plans and began work on GW2. We're now in a similar situation where the Team is pushing the engine's limits and it shows more and more. The only question is whether ANet has the energy, money and inspiration for a GW3.

    One thing is for certain though: PvE ganking has no place in any Guild Wars game.

    Bugtracker: Costume Brawl
    Announcementtracker: Alliances, Legendary Armory

  • Id be really excited for a GW3, as much as I love GW2 it has too many fundamental problems for it to really shine.

  • jokke.6239jokke.6239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    I would rather have they made a sequel like Path of Exile does it soon with Path of Exile 2.
    What does that mean?
    Make a sequel that connects with Guild Wars 2.
    Guild Wars 2 + Guild Wars 3 (basicly a huge kitten expansion the size of a full MMO with modern graphics)

    Create a new big open world (Core Tyria size) and story with 1-80 content with modern graphics.
    Update or completely recreate the character models
    If possible update the graphics of older zones
    Plus whatever Arena Net would want to add for a "sequel"

    They would need to update/rework the engine, will probably never happen, but one can dream.

    What would be the benefits of this?

    Guild Wars 3 would already be full of content as soon as it released. (The exact reason why PoE chose to do it. Why throw years of hard work out the window?)
    They could still market the update as Guild Wars 3 and receive attention from gaming press and gaming community
    We wouldn't lose any progress or MTX.
    Guild Wars 2's philosophy of no vertical progression and map level scaling makes this game a perfect fit for this model, in a game where all content is still relevant. In fact it's a even better fit for the model than PoE is, since in PoE2 you will have to choose a campaign to level in (PoE1 or PoE2). In Guild Wars 3 you could simply jump between GW2 and GW3 without any issues.

    "So pretty much just a a fancy expansion called Guild Wars 3 for marketing reasons?"

    Somewhat .. but not quite ..
    It's a new concept, we will have to wait and see how well it works out for Path of Exile.
    It updates the game to modern standards while adding all the content you would expect from a sequel.

  • @White Kitsunee.4620 said:
    Id be really excited for a GW3, as much as I love GW2 it has too many fundamental problems for it to really shine.

    Is the problem WvW lag?
    Next gen game shouldn't be seeing lag in WvW?

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Should there be a GW3?

    GW2 though, its not a full MMORPG yet either, one aspect it is missing, is Open World PvP.
    Open World PvP is... [what... ever...]

    Well you just disqualified most MMOs out there...

    Kinda hard to take you seriously if you think an MMO needs PvP, let alone 'open world'...

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    GW2 though, its not a full MMORPG yet either, one aspect it is missing, is Open World PvP.
    Open World PvP is what full MMORPG's like EQ and WoW have. Something GW2 and ESO lacks to become a real full MMORPG.

    Yay arbitrary definitions of acronyms are always fun. It's been years but once upon a time WOW had servers with open world PVP enabled (which were usually empty/devoid of players) and servers with open world PVP disabled (which were usually active and full of players), fun times.

    Also, WVW is not Open World PVP? What is it, instanced PVP?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Just because it doesn't involve ganking PvErs that have 0 desire to PvP (Anymore at least... Back when WvW was needed for World Completion on the other hand...) doesn't make it any less Open World PvP.

    Sometimes, WvW does involve "ganking" PvE players that have no desire to PvP.
    Like the players that wait for the daily Veteran to respawn, or trying to capture the daily ruins.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Sometimes, WvW does involve "ganking" PvE players that have no desire to PvP.
    Like the players that wait for the daily Veteran to respawn, or trying to capture the daily ruins.

    Big difference between that kind of thing being a side dish and the main course.

    Back in Shadowbane days I'd have to literally park myself in perma-stealth next to groups farming xp (in that terrible "old school" just-redo-the-same-few-fights-over-and-over kind of way) in order to ambush anyone who showed up to gank them.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Just because it doesn't involve ganking PvErs that have 0 desire to PvP (Anymore at least... Back when WvW was needed for World Completion on the other hand...) doesn't make it any less Open World PvP.

    Sometimes, WvW does involve "ganking" PvE players that have no desire to PvP.
    Like the players that wait for the daily Veteran to respawn, or trying to capture the daily ruins.

    Personally, I hate when this happens but if I'm playing in the WvW sandbox, then I should expect to be treated as an enemy to some players. Sure, it sucks for me when it happens, but I'd rather have it this way than to install open world PvP.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There might be GW3 ... but no one should assume it will just be a GW2 correction version that contains things they want fixed in it. If anything, I think a GW3 release might eliminate one or two of the least popular game modes ... this idea of having three game modes in one game has been nothing but a disaster for Anet.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    Well, that is a true MMORPG definition. Pretty much all the founding MMORPGs had it.
    Look at OSRS, WoW, EQ. Foundering MMORPGs.

    Lets be honest too, with WvW is instanced not Open World, same with ESO.
    However, ESO has PvE content that people actually do in the WvW instance, so it feels closer to an Open World PvP feeling than GW2.
    GW2 lacks PvE content in WvW. None of it is worth it except for daily and one time achievement.

    ...
    Speaking of which.
    If GW2 decides to finally bring back the Underworld, if they want to do it right, they should put it in WvW. And yes, you'd have to travel to it like you do in ESO PvE areas.
    Like you do in OSRS PvE areas in PvP. Like you do in EQ and WoW, theres a good dungeon... But its in enemy territory too.

    This would make GUILDS in GW2 actually mean something, as in Guild Mission is go into WvW do this PvE content, with 15 of us no one is likely to mess with us unless its a zerg... But 5 or less of us going in, probably gonna get messed with.

    ...
    The one thing GW2 lacks, is meaningful small to medium sized parties. As in you login, you search for friends and say lets do this.
    Not at a scheduled time like raids or guild missions, not a random PUG squad. But a on the fly, with friends, with guilds, like 5-20 of them.

    GW2 needs to work on content where friends actually start mattering, guilds actually start mattering, 5-20 is good enough, over 20+ makes it just too easy to do. Over 20+ is hard to get together too, and starts to be a random PUG squad with meaningless connections/friendships.

    One of the core things about MMORPGs is connections and friendships.

    ..
    You can be on a losing server, but if you have around 15 people that always down to ride with you, the outnumbered server doesn't feel so outnumbered anymore. Sure that enemy zerg may come and rekt you, but you can do stuff, and that enemy zerg has better things to do like go after bigger fish than to rekt a 15ish group all day.

    As for GW3. All I want you to think about is.
    WoW does not have a WoW2
    EQ has an EQ2, but it failed, EQ is better
    OSRS has a new Runescape, but if failed OSRS is better
    And that GW2 was born along with Diablo3 and Elder Scrolls Online, so best pay attention to them.
    Diablo3 doesn't have open world anything, and I'm not sure if it considers itself MMORPG, but my opinion, they should make Diablo4 and it be a TRUE MMORPG.
    ...
    As for GW3 or GW2,
    And TRUE MMORPG

    IF you look at living story, the Charr are rebellion, the next expansion could be nothing but everyone rebelling.
    Pick your side.
    Tyria is now Open World PvP boys and girls.
    That would draw in a lot of WoW playerbase, because the playerbase of WoW, its mainly Open World PvP'ers.
    And ya know another fact.
    ...
    WoW is STILL the highest populated MMORPG.
    ..
    Let me say this again too, WoW is mainly Open World PvP'ers, and HIGHEST populated MMORPG.
    Think about it.
    ..
    Also thinking more, MMORPGs back then, you had to run to your place or get a wizard portal. I'm ok with WP, but I'm glad they reducing the amount of WP in zones. Sure its 2020 time to adapt, but you can't put the 2020 in a TRUE MMORPG. Be thankful when you die others cannot loot you. You don't have all your gold drop when you die too.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    I feel pretty confident that ANet has the necessary metrics to understand what content is mostly engaged in by the player base which is why there seems to be more focus on open world than PvP/WvW. This might also be true for guilds which is why the content for guilds dried up some time ago.

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    The one thing GW2 lacks, is meaningful small to medium sized parties. As in you login, you search for friends and say lets do this.
    Not at a scheduled time like raids or guild missions, not a random PUG squad. But a on the fly, with friends, with guilds, like 5-20 of them.

    One thing it lacks.... for you. I frequently play with a small group of friends and we don't have a guild hall.

    GW2 needs to work on content where friends actually start mattering, guilds actually start mattering, 5-20 is good enough, over 20+ makes it just too easy to do. Over 20+ is hard to get together too, and starts to be a random PUG squad with meaningless connections/friendships.

    Again, this is your perspective, your preference. It may not be the model that ANet chooses to follow. My small group of friends doesn't have any problem with doing content that involves a large group of random players.

    One of the core things about MMORPGs is connections and friendships.

    Really? This is a core design point? I'm not sure that I agree with you.

    You can be on a losing server, but if you have around 15 people that always down to ride with you, the outnumbered server doesn't feel so outnumbered anymore. Sure that enemy zerg may come and rekt you, but you can do stuff, and that enemy zerg has better things to do like go after bigger fish than to rekt a 15ish group all day.

    You seem to be focused a lot on WvW aspects of gaming. While GW2 has WvW content, it doesn't seem to me to be the game's primary focus. I don't believe that it should start to be that focus now.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Let me say this again too, WoW is mainly Open World PvP'ers, and HIGHEST populated MMORPG.
    Think about it.

    It's why WoW's PVP servers were dead before they consolidated them... oh wait.
    Highest populated MMORPG? Yes. Because it has open world pvp? Obviously not.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we can safely put to bed any ideas that a "true mmo" requires open world pvp outside of what WvW style modes already offer. GW2 does a lot of things that the earlier MMOs like UO, Everquest, Anarchy Online and many others (WoW was a few years later) did not.

    Ultimately someone else already covered what makes an MMORPG and open world pvp isn't one of the criteria, so lets not allow that to drive the conversation since it isn't at all correct

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Let me say this again too, WoW is mainly Open World PvP'ers, and HIGHEST populated MMORPG.
    Think about it.

    It's why WoW's PVP servers were dead before they consolidated them... oh wait.
    Highest populated MMORPG? Yes. Because it has open world pvp? Obviously not.

    Couldn't say it better. No one should be illogically joining two 'facts' and implying they are related and then speculating it's what is holding GW franchise back from massive success.

    I think it's safe to say that very few people that are fans of the GW franchise would want OW PVP and probably just as safe to say it would attract not many people who don't play GW franchise as well. There are games that do it better ... and those people know it.

    I'm also certain that whatever GW3 could be ... no definition of MMORPG will constrain it. In otherwords, people need to stop getting hung up about definitions ... they aren't relevant. No one chooses a game to play because of how stringent the game adheres to some definition of what an MMORPG is.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • No.

    Sure make another game (MMO even) set in Tyria with the lore, but make it something different than GW2. Call it "Tyria" or something. If there were going to be a new IP, I'd rather it be that, "new".

    A lot of things are broken or just too outdated (including some mechanics), especially in the early content of GW2.

    I would however love for GW2 to get some well deserved polish. Honestly I would prefer a seamless "remaster" of some content, LWS1 replacement, engine optimization and higher resolution textures in older zones than a rehash of Guild Wars 2 with the label of Guild Wars 3. Too bad all the player data, environments couldn't somehow be migrated to something like Unreal Engine 4, which would possibly make it more possible for upgrades to later Unreal Engine iterations in the future and help "future-proof" the game. Add in better/stable server tech, and amazing! Honestly, if this was the new feature of the third expansion, then it would be the best feature. Probably better than mounts. haha. But in the end, is GW2 a forever game? Does ANet really want to keep this as their flagship until the end? If not, such overhauls like engine upgrades are likely not worth it. However, if they want this to still be considered competition after another 5 years, then yeah, the update would be essential.

    TLDR: No, I don't think there should be a "Guild Wars 3". I would rather see something new and different while still keeping with the same Arenanet philosophy (map exploration, horizontal progression, beautiful environments) found in both GW1 and GW2. But I'd even more rather see a better GW2.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    GW2 though, its not a full MMORPG yet either, one aspect it is missing, is Open World PvP.
    Open World PvP is what full MMORPG's like EQ and WoW have. Something GW2 and ESO lacks to become a real full MMORPG.

    One of the greatest strengths of the Guild Wars series is that they don't just copy bad ideas from previous MMOGs.

    Creating new bad ideas isn't any better in my opinion.

    I do agree with you about open world PvP though.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think adding a third to this franchise would be beneficial. I've loved this game for years but the past few have just been consistently disappointing and inconsistent pretty much everywhere else. The only thing we can ever truly count on is gemstore updates every 2 weeks.

    They've had multiple features throughout this game's lifespan that they've just completely abandoned. Fractals (one every 2 years is pretty much life support.) Dungeons (since vanilla.) Raids (never did them and can understand not wanting to spend the resources on them in their current state but why not try to improve or iterate on them instead of converting them to a one boss, one room encounter with kitten rng rewards?) Guild Halls (aside from the occasional decoration drop here and there.)

    Living story releases that feel smaller, and smaller, and smaller. Bounties were abandoned. Not that they were overly exciting to begin with as the rewards for doing anything in this game are generally nothing more than mats that might equate to .01% of what you need to craft a legendary.

    To be honest it just seems like there's no organization behind the scenes, there's hardly any marketing to appeal to new players despite having beautiful artwork and an engaging combat system. They have seemingly some of the most talented devs in the business but it just feels like there's a total lack of direction and over the past few years it just feels like more and more resources have been starved out of the game. Less updates, less content. We might have had interesting current event releases awhile back, but those have now been shoved aside in favor of some generic bonus event that gives us some low dollar gemstore items, magic find boosters, and rng boxes with .0000000001% chance at a new shiny infusion. They're not even consistent with these events? I love no downstate wvw but we've gotten it twice in what.... a year? You'd think during this downtime they would be able to automate some of these bonus events like the boss rush, meta event rush, fractal rush, similarly to how they've automated festivals. But it's just totally random.

    Anyway, yeah, I don't think I'd invest in a third rendition of this franchise. Unless it had substantially more funding and some semblance of consistency or seemed to reflect that it was the majority focus of the studio. As it is right now it just seems like there's a few passionate people left developing this game and the rest are off working on another project.

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    I don't think adding a third to this franchise would be beneficial. I've loved this game for years but the past few have just been consistently disappointing and inconsistent pretty much everywhere else. The only thing we can ever truly count on is gemstore updates every 2 weeks.

    They've had multiple features throughout this game's lifespan that they've just completely abandoned. Fractals (one every 2 years is pretty much life support.) Dungeons (since vanilla.) Raids (never did them and can understand not wanting to spend the resources on them in their current state but why not try to improve or iterate on them instead of converting them to a one boss, one room encounter with kitten rng rewards?) Guild Halls (aside from the occasional decoration drop here and there.)

    Living story releases that feel smaller, and smaller, and smaller. Bounties were abandoned. Not that they were overly exciting to begin with as the rewards for doing anything in this game are generally nothing more than mats that might equate to .01% of what you need to craft a legendary.

    To be honest it just seems like there's no organization behind the scenes, there's hardly any marketing to appeal to new players despite having beautiful artwork and an engaging combat system. They have seemingly some of the most talented devs in the business but it just feels like there's a total lack of direction and over the past few years it just feels like more and more resources have been starved out of the game. Less updates, less content. We might have had interesting current event releases awhile back, but those have now been shoved aside in favor of some generic bonus event that gives us some low dollar gemstore items, magic find boosters, and rng boxes with .0000000001% chance at a new shiny infusion. They're not even consistent with these events? I love no downstate wvw but we've gotten it twice in what.... a year? You'd think during this downtime they would be able to automate some of these bonus events like the boss rush, meta event rush, fractal rush, similarly to how they've automated festivals. But it's just totally random.

    Anyway, yeah, I don't think I'd invest in a third rendition of this franchise. Unless it had substantially more funding and some semblance of consistency or seemed to reflect that it was the majority focus of the studio. As it is right now it just seems like there's a few passionate people left developing this game and the rest are off working on another project.

    It's easy to imagine why they would try GW3 - taking control of the MMORPG market.

    Honestly, with the hype and trailers Anet provided before GW2 released, I thought it was going to be far better than it was.

    They never fixed many issues and the game has been on gemstore life-support ever since. Something poor must have happened behind the scenes all those years ago.

  • We don't need to see a Guild Wars 3. Only a Guild Wars 2 on direct x 11 or 12 with never before see land masses. Old land masses are getting older by the month. Nothing to see here move along, move along... ;)

  • As tempting as it is to imagine what a 3rd Guild Wars would look like, I'd much rather this game be given the budget and team it deserves to fix up the older content and optimize the the game overall

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭

    They shouldn't have merged the old 2017 'real' thread with the new troll 'only PvP games are MMos' fake thread...

    But since they have...

    I'm going to ignore the new troll and reply to the 2017 guy...

    @Cyrin.1035 said:
    Should the GW series continue with an entirely new sequel? Or should GW 2 simply continue with expansions?

    Some want a new and more advanced graphics engine. Some want new or more races and professions to be explored. There are so many possibilities for a GW 3, but is GW 2 enough to expand on and if it is, what does that mean for its longevity?

    Guild Wars 3 should happen once the 'core lore' of Guild Wars is finally present in Guild Wars 2. Ie... we still need Cantha. Thankfully that's coming soon. Back in 2017 it didn't look like it would ever happen.

    When they do get around to Guild Wars 3 they need to make sure the launch day version includes some parts of Kryta, Elona, and Cantha. Enough that we know the core game won't take 8 years to be out again...

    It should also remember the name of the franchise... "Guild Wars"... and... actually have guild wars in it. Maybe that could be the actual plot. It was the 'lead to' for Guild Wars 1... the backstory was that the 'guild wars' had recently ended... but we got Guild v Guild PvP....

    For Guild Wars 3... they should make some large world scale 'NPC Guilds' that are at war. Like FFXIV does - where a guild there is an NPC organization so the player groups got a funky name 'free company'... But not as... funky...

    Players could then either be involved as participants in this, or as a neutral third party trying to stop it because 'hey - the real threat is over here guys'...

    • That said the 'hey the real threat is over here' plot device is too over-used... so I would favor either 'the guild war is the real threat - lets destroy these guilds' or 'the guild war is the real issue, let's win it'.

    Then we need to think about timeline and technology.

    Guild Wars 2 is already more of a sci fi game than a fantasy game. The Asura have future tech, the Charr sometimes do. They need to either 'destroy the technology' or 'push it forward'.

    So Guild Wars 3 is either 'back in the iron age because something broke all the tech' or looks like 'Shadowrun' - Cyberpunk era technology with magic. I think the Cyberpunk angle would be best - as it's territory no other MMO has done. Shadowrun itself keeps 'almost coming to MMOs' but never quite, and is a dated concept anyway...

    Graphics and so on... yeah - update to whatever's current when it comes out. And maybe less with the 'extreme contrasts in colors' that cause Guild Wars 2 to be a source of eye-strain when played for long sessions...

    Races / Professions... Mostly the current core races, but add Tengu, Hylek, Skritt, and Dredge. Skritt and Dredge are actually perfect for higher tech. Skritt could either be 'junk rats' or... having realized they get super smart when in large numbers, there could be Skritt cities that make even the Asura look dumb, but any Skritt outside of them is 'less developed'. And a small few skritt have mastered being 'smart but not super-genius' when alone - the player option.

    Professions... and game engine... I think it would be time to bring tanks and healers in. Not because it's "better", but because it's better... in an MMO... it makes designing organized team play content a lot smoother... there's a reason we don't have new dungeons and our fractals are not as dynamic as they could be - there's only so much you can do when your player comp is basically 5 DPS that don't harmonize well all that often... and the current system, when they do harmonize, is too easily 'broken' by those players...

    Roles at least give developers tools to enforce the way fights play out.

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Animism.7530 said:

    Honestly, with the hype and trailers Anet provided before GW2 released, I thought it was going to be far better than it was.

    They thought they had created the perfect 'role-less' combat system, finally breaking free of the 'trinity' MMOs so often rely on.

    Within about 2 months players had figured out how to break it using as simple a trick as 'stack and dodge'...

    And I guess the original developer team was so insulted to find out that their mechanic was that easy to break that they just... gave up... They got rid of their dungeon team, and ever since then on some levels they have been floundering.

    Remember how before Guild Wars 2 came out we got all these videos about how they had made the perfect combat system that would be so dynamic and intense to play and something no one could ever 'kitten'. It would challenge novice and master alike and require intense team planning and real time coordination.

    stack, and dodge. collect loot.

    dev team quits.

    It also didn't help that the lore folks broke canon with the very initial realize - changing the ethnicity of the Krytans to be 'caucasian' when that's NOT what they were in Guild Wars 1... Then when Living Story happened, they broke even their own canon when they added the people on the sky ships who had Charr and Humans together for a few hundred years - when the end of the Charr and Human war was only recent.

    So you had:

    • our combat engine wasn't the challenge we expected it to be
    • our lore team didn't read any of the prior lore, let alone even their own lore

    And so I think a lot of them just stopped caring.

    Shortly after this we started seeing them trying to move away from the core NPCs they had launched the game with. People started getting killed off or otherwise replaced... and the 'dragon' storyline started being something to avoid rather than explore. Granted we have finally moved the dragon plot forward, but it seems like it's been more of 'something that was around the story the new writers wanted to do, rather than what they really wanted to explore'.

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, but I first want at least 5 more years of GW2 development. With at least 2 more expansions, player housing and a new Hall of Monuments to bridge between GW2 and GW3. Ofc, GW2 should stay online just like GW1.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    Well it got merged, do I agree, no.
    Its 2020.

    2020 thinking shouldn't be merged with 2017 thinking.

    If anyone wondering where the 2020 thinking started, its page 6, you probably didn't read it too. Everyone reads 1st page and maybe last page, 2020 thinking is not on first page now sadly.

    Well, I was thinking that.
    EQ made EQ2 unsuccessful
    OSRS made new runescape unsuccessful
    Diablo2 made Diablo3 and called it an MMORPG!? It's pretty much Diablo2 again, Diablo2 is better, also unsuccessful

    Successful games?
    World of Warcraft, 15 years later, still #1. If they made WoW2, guess what, WoW would probably be dead and WoW2.
    Same kind of fate EQ and EQ2 faced, you don't divide the playerbase.

    So GW3?
    What will happen to GW2?
    Will it be another EQ and EQ2?
    What happened again?

    You think WoW is "we need to goto a better development platform, we gotta be on the new UNREAL ENGINE GUYS, its key to our success!"
    shake my head

    unreal engine, the latest development engine doesn't mean anything. Its the tiny details that makes a good game.

    Thats why WoW is still KING
    WoW is STILL #1

    WoW is just WoW
    not WoW2 WoW3

    Just WoW
    Here in 2020, still kicking everyone's butt because the new games dev's business analysts they all listening to wrong people.
    "Open World PvP, nayyy nayyy I say!"

    Its #1 thing going for it for the game with #1 population #1 MMORPG
    Alliance vs Horde
    Open World PvP.

    If GW2 decides to make GW3, it better be because of the fact they want to do Open World PvP

    If its because they want to be on the latest and greatest unreal engine, thats a dumb move if you ask me.
    Just look at Everquest and Everquest2, OSRS new runescape.... etc etc etc

    WoW gonna still kick all yall butts on their Quake 3 engine or whatever back 15 years ago. Yall be on unreal engine thinking its key to success, and still getting whooped by engine from 15 years back.

    GW2 needs to start thinking about player housing
    start thinking about what it can exploit as a niche, racing if you ask me
    needs to think about bringing back that PvP from GW1, battlegrounds, that was a hit
    needs to start thinking about guild wars
    needs to start thinking about stuff people do for fun and not just for rewards

    this game right now its too reward focused and commander icon that just signifies rewards will come easy here
    needs to think about building actual bonds, like people party up in the open world

    yeah solo is fun, being able to do events so is cool and hype.... But your missing on the friendship aspect.
    Maybe need to add faster/double rewards if you group with 3 or more friends in zones.

    I can beat this whole game and not even have a friend.

    Most of this stuff is all stuff WoW does, the little things. The big thing is
    Alliance vs Horde
    How's that done you ask?
    Open World PvP

    Define open world PvP?
    Thats me coming to The Grove and just going ham on everything slyvari

    Yes you heard right, me going to a city where others are in too, and freely being able to kill whoever is not on my team, even the NPCs.
    Thats Open World PvP

    No safe places.


    See this video? ... btw this is just 1 of several servers.. this is 2019, recent.

    You just wanna do PvE, too bad, The Charr is here, we raiding you tonight.
    Thats what people want, thats why WoW is #1

    Aint no game challenging its Open World PvP.
    Thats why none of the other games even close to greatness

    "lag we need better engine to solve lag problems"
    Meanwhile Quake 3 engine or whatever 15 years ago engine WoW is running, we doing good enough, its not what makes or breaks people, its the tiny details and we do them right and thats why people stick around and keep playing WoW.

    "hey children why have you came back to WoW?"
    These other games, they just don't want to do Open World PvP, they listen to wrong people advice.
    This only game that has good Open World PvP.
    "Alliance vs Horde!!!! same thing that drew in people 15 years ago... STILL same thing people seeking"

    As Mr.Mcmahon says "Controversy creates cash" Thats exactly what Open World PvP does, it ticks off people that they keep coming back for more.

    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    ..
    FPS games, what game is making big $$$?
    Oh its an open world FPS, 100 players in it?
    Ok ok ok

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Meanwhile Quake 3 engine or whatever 15 years ago engine WoW is running, we doing good enough, its not what makes or breaks people, its the tiny details and we do them right and thats why people stick around and keep playing WoW.

    World of Warcraft is using a proprietary engine that has been updated multiple times over the history of the game. The engine used today is very different to the one used on release. There are a lot of games out there that started with a very old engine and updated later on. If a company wants to update their engine to bring it up to modern standards, they can do it, provided they pay the price for it.

  • The thing about WoW is... It looks great, combat aside.

    The one main thing GW2 gets along the right lines is the detail and fluidity of combat. I can't find another MMO to match it; which makes choosing an MMO to play all the more irritating; as others have far more compelling and consistent stories.

    I mean I never played WoW - and I managed to watch all of their cutscenes from the latest expansion which were movie-quality.

  • @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    Most of this stuff is all stuff WoW does, the little things. The big thing is
    Alliance vs Horde
    How's that done you ask?
    Open World PvP

    Although I would say you make some valid points, the important thing to realize is there should be diversity in games as there is diversity in gamers. Many (if not most) GW2 players play GW2 because they don't want to play WoW (or a game like WoW). I see no point in making a game that already does what another game does. Much better to create a game that does what another does not, and so players have greater choice. I always wonder why some players make comments like, "make the game more like this game", especially when it comes to the core mechanics and philosophy of a game, when said player could just go play "that game".

    Personally I love GW2 and play it because of what it is. I think it just needs a bit more love and polish, hence why there doesn't really need to be a Guild Wars 3 (unless there is a big change like open world PvP, etc.). But it will be pretty funny to see GW2 still running on DX9 in 2025 and barely breaking 45fps in high population zones with next gen processors and graphics cards and with skill lag issues to boot. WoW's engine has been updated and it is not the "Quake 3 engine or whatever 15 years ago engine" you think it to be.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @firedragon.8953 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    Most of this stuff is all stuff WoW does, the little things. The big thing is
    Alliance vs Horde
    How's that done you ask?
    Open World PvP

    Although I would say you make some valid points, the important thing to realize is there should be diversity in games as there is diversity in gamers. Many (if not most) GW2 players play GW2 because they don't want to play WoW (or a game like WoW). I see no point in making a game that already does what another game does. Much better to create a game that does what another does not, and so players have greater choice. I always wonder why some players make comments like, "make the game more like this game", especially when it comes to the core mechanics and philosophy of a game, when said player could just go play "that game".

    Well, you can excuse players for making such arguments when it is the same behaviour we see in alot of developers and the capital power behind them. In fact, it could be argued that it is the very same thing that is the reason for the decline of this game.

    GW2 was launched with a vision and that vision was very similar to what you describe here: Doing things well that other games did not do well enough. Since then we have seen them try to dip into esports, raids, mobas, adventure rpg and likely console and mobile. All those trends have in common that they may be popular but also cutthroat popular among developers and a game tend to excel at the things its core systems were designed for.

    GW2 doesn't even have to be bad at these things, it just has to be unable to stand out enough to compete and beat out more established titles within those genres for chasing such trends to be a popular mistake.

    That can be summed up in the overarching discussion of this thread: Whether there will be a GW3 can be seen in two ways - a continued game or a continued name. I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has tried and will keep trying to make a GW3 in name. I do not think that ArenaNet are looking to make a GW3 that is a next-generation GW2 (the way GW2 at least could be argued relates to GW1). Even in the very broad strokes of how you could define MMO drawn out in this thread - I don't think they are looking to make more MMO. Not just because of how MMO's do not need to be rebranded as new games aside from sales hype but mostly because the company is not interested and built to do it anymore, in general. The IP is the only value that the studio has to the publisher by now, I'm sure. Whether that is a good thing or them repeating mistakes again is another question.

  • firedragon.8953firedragon.8953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    I couldn't agree more.
    Insightfully depressing. Enheavyning, even. Thanks! ...I guess. :p

    To be hypocritical I would suggest that Guild Wars 3 (don't call it that though, maybe something like "Tyria: The Birth of Magic") be more like The Witcher 3. An awesome single player campaign with a deep story set in Tyria and wide open world to explore. Add in the option for players to create and host their own PvP lobbies and even have a montly/weekly hosted WvW mode (seige/raiding game mode) where 30 or so players join a random color team every time they join the event. Really "lore it up" with the beginning of the gods, magic and dawn of humanity in Tyria to get people interested in playing the MMO called Guild Wars 2 (maybe even GW1).

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Most of this stuff is all stuff WoW does, the little things. The big thing is
    Alliance vs Horde
    How's that done you ask?
    Open World PvP

    WoW hasn't done "Alliance vs Horde" in literal years.

    Even it's lore has gotten kind of wishy-washy in regards to the actual war between the 2 factions. With Taurens, Trolls and Blood Elves being "Horde" mostly for convenience, while the Forsaken are off doing their own thing and are barely even part of the Horde (With actions that make the Warchief(s) question them)

    Meanwhile, there's been a lot of introduced neutral groups that feature races from both factions and are dealt with by both factions. Even Thrall, the ex-Warchief became like BFF's with Varian Wrynn (The King of Stormwind, whom is himself, friend of Orcs what with being Lo'Gosh and fighting for his freedom in the gladiator battles in Dire Maul alongside Broll Bearmantle a Night Elf Druid and Valeera Sanguinar a Blood Elf Rogue)

    They've tried to emphasise "Alliance vs Horde" in a few expansions, but it often falls short because of how their story takes precedent (Such as how in TBC it was Alliance + Horde vs Demons, WotLK it was Alliance + Horde vs Lich King, Catacylsm it was Alliance + Horde vs Deathwing, Pandaria it ended up being Alliance + Horde vs Garrosh, WoD it was Alliance + Horde vs alternate universe Horde, in Legion it was Alliance + Horde vs Demons and BFA it has been Alliance + Horde vs Elder God)

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    ..
    FPS games, what game is making big $$$?
    Oh its an open world FPS, 100 players in it?
    Ok ok ok

    Current fads are whatever is most streamable.

    Right now, it's Battle Royales. Before that it was MOBA's (5v5 matches on a specific map)

    Though Counter Strike has always been highly popular (Another 5v5 game on small maps)

    Also, Among Us has started picking up in popularity which is a 4-10 player "TTT" style game that pits randomly selected "Imposters" vs innocents.

    Thus, it won't be long until Battle Royales also fall out of popularity like MOBA's did and a new genre becomes the new fad (Meanwhile, CS:GO will continue to be one of the most profitable games due to the consistent tournaments it holds and thus streaming coverage)

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    That can be summed up in the overarching discussion of this thread: Whether there will be a GW3 can be seen in two ways - a continued game or a continued name. I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has tried and will keep trying to make a GW3 in name. I do not think that ArenaNet are looking to make a GW3 that is a next-generation GW2 (the way GW2 at least could be argued relates to GW1). Even in the very broad strokes of how you could define MMO drawn out in this thread - I don't think they are looking to make more MMO. Not just because of how MMO's do not need to be rebranded as new games aside from sales hype but mostly because the company is not interested and built to do it anymore, in general. The IP is the only value that the studio has to the publisher by now, I'm sure. Whether that is a good thing or them repeating mistakes again is another question.

    From a business standpoint, a GW3 would be beneficial to ANet. As it would allow for an additional revenue source, as opposed to relying entirely on GW2 as their sole income (With maybe a few GW1 sales here and there as people go back to play them)

    GW3 however, shouldn't be an MMO. Such a thing is simply too costly to produce and would then start to compete with GW2 directly (As few people would actively play both MMO's and fewer still would actively spend money on both)

    GW3 being a single player RPG (Maybe with some multiplayer functionality) would put it in a place where it doesn't compete with GW2 and would be a way to generate some additional profit and potentially highlight GW2's existence (So people from outside of GW franchise can play it, have fun and then look to spend more time in the GW universe with GW2)

    After that, they can decide on if they want to make a new MMO (Be it GW4 or a new IP) or continue with GW2 and addtional non-MMO titles.

    Though, as I mentioned earlier in this thread (Before it got merged), I don't know if they have the resources to be able to hire a second team to work on an additional title. Be it an MMO or not.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    I guess that's why you will never see a GW3 if that is truly the main reason to make it.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    I guess that's why you will never see a GW3 if that is truly the main reason to make it.

    Yep, you also wont see a WoW killer if no one does it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    I guess that's why you will never see a GW3 if that is truly the main reason to make it.

    Yep, you also wont see a WoW killer if no one does it.

    Good thing no one needs a WoW killer either. I mean, let's stop this silliness now ... there doesn't need to be a GW3 just to take a swing at WoW to try to knock them out of OW PVP. That makes NO sense.

    There are lots of reasons ... and way better and likely ones than to hold the crown for OW PVE ... for someone to make GW3.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    Only if the former team who created Guild Wars make it than i will buy it and support them. Until than, i could care less if they make Guild Wars 3 or not because after 8 years of throwing away everything Guild Wars stood for in the trash and dishonoring the meaning of Guild Wars and its lore, I absolutely have no interested in or will support with anything that will further disgrace Guild Wars name

    { GUILD WARS-}

    10/10

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Well it got merged, do I agree, no.
    Its 2020.

    2020 thinking shouldn't be merged with 2017 thinking.

    If anyone wondering where the 2020 thinking started, its page 6, you probably didn't read it too. Everyone reads 1st page and maybe last page, 2020 thinking is not on first page now sadly.

    Well, I was thinking that.
    EQ made EQ2 unsuccessful
    OSRS made new runescape unsuccessful
    Diablo2 made Diablo3 and called it an MMORPG!? It's pretty much Diablo2 again, Diablo2 is better, also unsuccessful

    Successful games?
    World of Warcraft, 15 years later, still #1. If they made WoW2, guess what, WoW would probably be dead and WoW2.
    Same kind of fate EQ and EQ2 faced, you don't divide the playerbase.

    So GW3?
    What will happen to GW2?
    Will it be another EQ and EQ2?
    What happened again?

    You think WoW is "we need to goto a better development platform, we gotta be on the new UNREAL ENGINE GUYS, its key to our success!"
    shake my head

    unreal engine, the latest development engine doesn't mean anything. Its the tiny details that makes a good game.

    Thats why WoW is still KING
    WoW is STILL #1

    WoW is just WoW
    not WoW2 WoW3

    Just WoW
    Here in 2020, still kicking everyone's butt because the new games dev's business analysts they all listening to wrong people.
    "Open World PvP, nayyy nayyy I say!"

    Its #1 thing going for it for the game with #1 population #1 MMORPG
    Alliance vs Horde
    Open World PvP.

    If GW2 decides to make GW3, it better be because of the fact they want to do Open World PvP

    If its because they want to be on the latest and greatest unreal engine, thats a dumb move if you ask me.
    Just look at Everquest and Everquest2, OSRS new runescape.... etc etc etc

    WoW gonna still kick all yall butts on their Quake 3 engine or whatever back 15 years ago. Yall be on unreal engine thinking its key to success, and still getting whooped by engine from 15 years back.

    GW2 needs to start thinking about player housing
    start thinking about what it can exploit as a niche, racing if you ask me
    needs to think about bringing back that PvP from GW1, battlegrounds, that was a hit
    needs to start thinking about guild wars
    needs to start thinking about stuff people do for fun and not just for rewards

    this game right now its too reward focused and commander icon that just signifies rewards will come easy here
    needs to think about building actual bonds, like people party up in the open world

    yeah solo is fun, being able to do events so is cool and hype.... But your missing on the friendship aspect.
    Maybe need to add faster/double rewards if you group with 3 or more friends in zones.

    I can beat this whole game and not even have a friend.

    Most of this stuff is all stuff WoW does, the little things. The big thing is
    Alliance vs Horde
    How's that done you ask?
    Open World PvP

    Define open world PvP?
    Thats me coming to The Grove and just going ham on everything slyvari

    Yes you heard right, me going to a city where others are in too, and freely being able to kill whoever is not on my team, even the NPCs.
    Thats Open World PvP

    No safe places.


    See this video? ... btw this is just 1 of several servers.. this is 2019, recent.

    You just wanna do PvE, too bad, The Charr is here, we raiding you tonight.
    Thats what people want, thats why WoW is #1

    Aint no game challenging its Open World PvP.
    Thats why none of the other games even close to greatness

    "lag we need better engine to solve lag problems"
    Meanwhile Quake 3 engine or whatever 15 years ago engine WoW is running, we doing good enough, its not what makes or breaks people, its the tiny details and we do them right and thats why people stick around and keep playing WoW.

    "hey children why have you came back to WoW?"
    These other games, they just don't want to do Open World PvP, they listen to wrong people advice.
    This only game that has good Open World PvP.
    "Alliance vs Horde!!!! same thing that drew in people 15 years ago... STILL same thing people seeking"

    As Mr.Mcmahon says "Controversy creates cash" Thats exactly what Open World PvP does, it ticks off people that they keep coming back for more.

    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    ..
    FPS games, what game is making big $$$?
    Oh its an open world FPS, 100 players in it?
    Ok ok ok

    You didnt even watch the video, did you?

    It shows WoW is completely unplayable like that because the WoW engine breaks with that many players.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Well it got merged, do I agree, no.
    Its 2020.

    2020 thinking shouldn't be merged with 2017 thinking.

    If anyone wondering where the 2020 thinking started, its page 6, you probably didn't read it too. Everyone reads 1st page and maybe last page, 2020 thinking is not on first page now sadly.

    Well, I was thinking that.
    EQ made EQ2 unsuccessful
    OSRS made new runescape unsuccessful
    Diablo2 made Diablo3 and called it an MMORPG!? It's pretty much Diablo2 again, Diablo2 is better, also unsuccessful

    Successful games?
    World of Warcraft, 15 years later, still #1. If they made WoW2, guess what, WoW would probably be dead and WoW2.
    Same kind of fate EQ and EQ2 faced, you don't divide the playerbase.

    So GW3?
    What will happen to GW2?
    Will it be another EQ and EQ2?
    What happened again?

    You think WoW is "we need to goto a better development platform, we gotta be on the new UNREAL ENGINE GUYS, its key to our success!"
    shake my head

    unreal engine, the latest development engine doesn't mean anything. Its the tiny details that makes a good game.

    Thats why WoW is still KING
    WoW is STILL #1

    WoW is just WoW
    not WoW2 WoW3

    Just WoW
    Here in 2020, still kicking everyone's butt because the new games dev's business analysts they all listening to wrong people.
    "Open World PvP, nayyy nayyy I say!"

    Its #1 thing going for it for the game with #1 population #1 MMORPG
    Alliance vs Horde
    Open World PvP.

    If GW2 decides to make GW3, it better be because of the fact they want to do Open World PvP

    If its because they want to be on the latest and greatest unreal engine, thats a dumb move if you ask me.
    Just look at Everquest and Everquest2, OSRS new runescape.... etc etc etc

    WoW gonna still kick all yall butts on their Quake 3 engine or whatever back 15 years ago. Yall be on unreal engine thinking its key to success, and still getting whooped by engine from 15 years back.

    GW2 needs to start thinking about player housing
    start thinking about what it can exploit as a niche, racing if you ask me
    needs to think about bringing back that PvP from GW1, battlegrounds, that was a hit
    needs to start thinking about guild wars
    needs to start thinking about stuff people do for fun and not just for rewards

    this game right now its too reward focused and commander icon that just signifies rewards will come easy here
    needs to think about building actual bonds, like people party up in the open world

    yeah solo is fun, being able to do events so is cool and hype.... But your missing on the friendship aspect.
    Maybe need to add faster/double rewards if you group with 3 or more friends in zones.

    I can beat this whole game and not even have a friend.

    Most of this stuff is all stuff WoW does, the little things. The big thing is
    Alliance vs Horde
    How's that done you ask?
    Open World PvP

    Define open world PvP?
    Thats me coming to The Grove and just going ham on everything slyvari

    Yes you heard right, me going to a city where others are in too, and freely being able to kill whoever is not on my team, even the NPCs.
    Thats Open World PvP

    No safe places.


    See this video? ... btw this is just 1 of several servers.. this is 2019, recent.

    You just wanna do PvE, too bad, The Charr is here, we raiding you tonight.
    Thats what people want, thats why WoW is #1

    Aint no game challenging its Open World PvP.
    Thats why none of the other games even close to greatness

    "lag we need better engine to solve lag problems"
    Meanwhile Quake 3 engine or whatever 15 years ago engine WoW is running, we doing good enough, its not what makes or breaks people, its the tiny details and we do them right and thats why people stick around and keep playing WoW.

    "hey children why have you came back to WoW?"
    These other games, they just don't want to do Open World PvP, they listen to wrong people advice.
    This only game that has good Open World PvP.
    "Alliance vs Horde!!!! same thing that drew in people 15 years ago... STILL same thing people seeking"

    As Mr.Mcmahon says "Controversy creates cash" Thats exactly what Open World PvP does, it ticks off people that they keep coming back for more.

    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    ..
    FPS games, what game is making big $$$?
    Oh its an open world FPS, 100 players in it?
    Ok ok ok

    You didnt even watch the video, did you?

    It shows WoW is completely unplayable like that because the WoW engine breaks with that many players.

    Difference between WoW and GW2

    WoW allows it
    GW2 they'd be making 6 instances of it.

    I prefer a game that is as open as it can be, like WoW.
    GW2, player restriction
    GW2, WvW restriction, invisible wall
    GW2 has a bunch of restrictions meanwhile WoW...
    You want open world PvP and that includes HOMECITIES. By all means, come into the enemy HOMECITY and destroy them all.

    If WoW had a WvW mode, it would include going into the enemys starting WP and being able to wipe them. Complete domination.
    Restriction Wars 2, you can't do that.

    You wont ever see another MMORPG especially GW2 having a 1000 vs 1000 fight.
    In WoW if you can dream it, it can be done.
    In GW2 if you can dream it, probably a restriction

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Well it got merged, do I agree, no.
    Its 2020.

    2020 thinking shouldn't be merged with 2017 thinking.

    If anyone wondering where the 2020 thinking started, its page 6, you probably didn't read it too. Everyone reads 1st page and maybe last page, 2020 thinking is not on first page now sadly.

    Well, I was thinking that.
    EQ made EQ2 unsuccessful
    OSRS made new runescape unsuccessful
    Diablo2 made Diablo3 and called it an MMORPG!? It's pretty much Diablo2 again, Diablo2 is better, also unsuccessful

    Successful games?
    World of Warcraft, 15 years later, still #1. If they made WoW2, guess what, WoW would probably be dead and WoW2.
    Same kind of fate EQ and EQ2 faced, you don't divide the playerbase.

    So GW3?
    What will happen to GW2?
    Will it be another EQ and EQ2?
    What happened again?

    You think WoW is "we need to goto a better development platform, we gotta be on the new UNREAL ENGINE GUYS, its key to our success!"
    shake my head

    unreal engine, the latest development engine doesn't mean anything. Its the tiny details that makes a good game.

    Thats why WoW is still KING
    WoW is STILL #1

    WoW is just WoW
    not WoW2 WoW3

    Just WoW
    Here in 2020, still kicking everyone's butt because the new games dev's business analysts they all listening to wrong people.
    "Open World PvP, nayyy nayyy I say!"

    Its #1 thing going for it for the game with #1 population #1 MMORPG
    Alliance vs Horde
    Open World PvP.

    If GW2 decides to make GW3, it better be because of the fact they want to do Open World PvP

    If its because they want to be on the latest and greatest unreal engine, thats a dumb move if you ask me.
    Just look at Everquest and Everquest2, OSRS new runescape.... etc etc etc

    WoW gonna still kick all yall butts on their Quake 3 engine or whatever back 15 years ago. Yall be on unreal engine thinking its key to success, and still getting whooped by engine from 15 years back.

    GW2 needs to start thinking about player housing
    start thinking about what it can exploit as a niche, racing if you ask me
    needs to think about bringing back that PvP from GW1, battlegrounds, that was a hit
    needs to start thinking about guild wars
    needs to start thinking about stuff people do for fun and not just for rewards

    this game right now its too reward focused and commander icon that just signifies rewards will come easy here
    needs to think about building actual bonds, like people party up in the open world

    yeah solo is fun, being able to do events so is cool and hype.... But your missing on the friendship aspect.
    Maybe need to add faster/double rewards if you group with 3 or more friends in zones.

    I can beat this whole game and not even have a friend.

    Most of this stuff is all stuff WoW does, the little things. The big thing is
    Alliance vs Horde
    How's that done you ask?
    Open World PvP

    Define open world PvP?
    Thats me coming to The Grove and just going ham on everything slyvari

    Yes you heard right, me going to a city where others are in too, and freely being able to kill whoever is not on my team, even the NPCs.
    Thats Open World PvP

    No safe places.


    See this video? ... btw this is just 1 of several servers.. this is 2019, recent.

    You just wanna do PvE, too bad, The Charr is here, we raiding you tonight.
    Thats what people want, thats why WoW is #1

    Aint no game challenging its Open World PvP.
    Thats why none of the other games even close to greatness

    "lag we need better engine to solve lag problems"
    Meanwhile Quake 3 engine or whatever 15 years ago engine WoW is running, we doing good enough, its not what makes or breaks people, its the tiny details and we do them right and thats why people stick around and keep playing WoW.

    "hey children why have you came back to WoW?"
    These other games, they just don't want to do Open World PvP, they listen to wrong people advice.
    This only game that has good Open World PvP.
    "Alliance vs Horde!!!! same thing that drew in people 15 years ago... STILL same thing people seeking"

    As Mr.Mcmahon says "Controversy creates cash" Thats exactly what Open World PvP does, it ticks off people that they keep coming back for more.

    If they do make GW3, this should be the main reason why. Open World PvP

    ..
    FPS games, what game is making big $$$?
    Oh its an open world FPS, 100 players in it?
    Ok ok ok

    You didnt even watch the video, did you?

    It shows WoW is completely unplayable like that because the WoW engine breaks with that many players.

    Difference between WoW and GW2

    WoW allows it
    GW2 they'd be making 6 instances of it.

    I prefer a game that is as open as it can be, like WoW.
    GW2, player restriction
    GW2, WvW restriction, invisible wall
    GW2 has a bunch of restrictions meanwhile WoW...
    You want open world PvP and that includes HOMECITIES. By all means, come into the enemy HOMECITY and destroy them all.

    If WoW had a WvW mode, it would include going into the enemys starting WP and being able to wipe them. Complete domination.
    Restriction Wars 2, you can't do that.

    You wont ever see another MMORPG especially GW2 having a 1000 vs 1000 fight.
    In WoW if you can dream it, it can be done.
    In GW2 if you can dream it, probably a restriction

    Ignoring the fact WoW is still unplayable at those numbers. You can keep dreaming about it, it doesnt make it any less of a messy fantasy. There is a reason WoW battlegrounds are FAR more restrictive than WvW instances with FAR less player counts.

    Also, Eve Online had it's biggest battle ever 10 days ago with like 9,000 players.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Only when Guild Wars 2 uses more cores to process the data. We cant even see 30+ people without lags.

  • I can see gw2 getting an upgrade to a higher direct x in the future like WoW did without changing the game. If they made a GW3 it would have to be more unique. So GW3 would have to become virtual reality instead of basic computer design

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Chyanne Waters.8719 said:
    I can see gw2 getting an upgrade to a higher direct x in the future like WoW did without changing the game. If they made a GW3 it would have to be more unique. So GW3 would have to become virtual reality instead of basic computer design

    rumor- they were working on Guild Wars 2.1-(an upgradeable version--perhaps Guild Wars 3?) that was the project they were working on?

    (Guild Wars 2 is based on a modified Guild Wars 1 engine and probably has probably pushed it to its limit= skill lag, dc's, cpu-hungry. There is so much that can be done and with the next expansion arriving, lowering the total map cap=Map Caps might be the only available solution)

    As Swagger stated in a post, Anet is desperate for players retention and are reaching out to other platforms=Steam for cashflow increase and stability-layoffs. Swagger is 100% correct. In other word, Guild Wars 3 will not be happening in a very long time or perhaps will never happen until there is stability with increase financial gain.

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Kichwas.7152 said:
    It also didn't help that the lore folks broke canon with the very initial realize - changing the ethnicity of the Krytans to be 'caucasian' when that's NOT what they were in Guild Wars 1... Then when Living Story happened, they broke even their own canon when they added the people on the sky ships who had Charr and Humans together for a few hundred years - when the end of the Charr and Human war was only recent.

    So you had:

    • our combat engine wasn't the challenge we expected it to be
    • our lore team didn't read any of the prior lore, let alone even their own lore

    And so I think a lot of them just stopped caring.

    Shortly after this we started seeing them trying to move away from the core NPCs they had launched the game with. People started getting killed off or otherwise replaced... and the 'dragon' storyline started being something to avoid rather than explore. Granted we have finally moved the dragon plot forward, but it seems like it's been more of 'something that was around the story the new writers wanted to do, rather than what they really wanted to explore'.

    To be fair, I wouldn't necessarily call these narrative points as lore discrepancies as we have evidence to the contrary from a historical basis.

    1) Krytan "whitewashing"

    While it is a bit unfortunate that the more Mediterranean-like Krytans were mostly replaced by the Caucasian-like Ascalonians, lorewise this kind of change makes sense if we consider the 250 years between games and the Ascalonians' mindset during a time of crisis for their people.

    The Ascalonians had been displaced from their homes because of the aggressive charr invasion, and those who stuck with Rurik followed him on his dangerous trek west to seek sanctuary in Kryta. The besieged Ebonhawke, and the Foefire which had culled most of the Ascalonians who had decided to stay in their homeland, certainly didn't help matters a few decades later as far as Ascalonian population went.

    It thus makes sense that the Ascalonians, while considering themselves to be on the brink of extinction, would breed like rabbits in Kryta. While some of them would settle into what became known as the Ascalonian Settlement in Gendarran Fields, many more integrated into Krytan society once Divinity's Reach had been built in the aftermath of Zhaitan's rise flooding the coastline. So, under this historical lens it is understandable why so many present-day denizens of the Kingdom of Kryta appear to be descended from Ascalon based on skin color while a few other ethnicities would be native Krytan as well as of Canthan, Elonian and Orrian descent.

    At least Queen Jennah is decidedly Krytan in ethnicity as we can see in her skin color. :)

    2) Charr Zephyrites before the Ebonhawke Treaty

    As for charr working alongside the Zephyrites, the charr were a more recent addition to their roster. The Zephyrites began as a group of Canthan and Elonian humans who dedicated themselves to Glint. As it happens, Glint also promoted views of a harmonious future and collaboration between the races (her line in "Crystalline Memories" even outright states: "Tyria's last hope rests on the unity of the races. The pooling of their strength. It is the only way."), so it'd make sense that the Canthan and Elonian-descended Zephyrites (who didn't have the same war baggage that Ascalonians, Krytans and Orrians had against the charr) would be welcoming of charr initiates into their ranks.

    In the Sea of Sorrows novel, taking place around Zhaitan's awakening in the 13th century AE (i.e. circa 100 years before the signing of the Ebonhawke Treaty), we already saw Iron Imperator Singe Seigemourn attempting a peace treaty with Kryta by delivering valuable human artifacts to Kryta until that attempt was foiled by Cobiah Marriner's pirate crew raiding the vessel before she reached her destination. During this time we also saw charr like Sykox Steamshroud being the charr confidante of Cobiah and an acting member of the first Captain's Council of Lion's Arch. So even beyond the Gwen and Pyre alliance from GW1 times, it wasn't uncommon for charr and humans to form friendships or even consider peaceful coexistence even if it'd take more than a century from Sea of Sorrows before the stage was truly set for a widespread armistice.

    As such, it isn't out of the question to see charr here and there among the Zephyrites, especially as they aren't that numerous among the Zephyrites when compared to the overwhelming human majority in the order.

    3) Moving on from core NPCs for Living World Season 1 etc.

    This is a bit of a trickier topic; I'm still hunting for the exact dev sources from long defunct websites and from some of the pulled down videos, but basically the thought process for moving on from many core NPCs like Destiny's Edge went something like this during Season 1:

    Season 1 was an ambitious project intended to take place in real time (hence the controversial change of adding five days to the Mouvelian calendar to correspond with our Earth's calendar to sync the two times with IRL game patches) with permanent changes and evolution for Tyria as a whole with little replay possibility. This living world approach also meant that the timeline would have to adapt to whatever point in the narrative each player had access to at the time. So, for all intents and purposes, Season 1 was stuck in the year 1325 AE of the Zhaitan campaign. Depending on your progress, the characters would refer to you as being orderless, having joined an order, having formed the Pact, or having slain Zhaitan. All these variables made it a nightmare to work in a coherent story while keeping all these timeline points in mind. That's why they often tried to write things as ambiguously as possible as each variable line would also need to be localized to supported langages and go through QA, which added to the overall cost of the episodes.

    Such an approach forced the devs to figure out how to tell the story. As some players wouldn't have finished the Zhaitan campaign let alone formed the Pact or joined the orders, it essentially meant "reseting" the storyline so Season 1 would take place simultaneously with personal story. That's why Rytlock and Logan are still hostile towards one another in S1 despite them forgiving one another by the end of the personal storyline, and why the Pact wasn't referenced at all until towards the end of S1 when the devs realized such a narrative approach wasn't feasible in the long run. Because narratively Destiny's Edge couldn't have come together due to both S1 and PS taking place simultaneously (and because DE only truly reunited at the end of the PS) and how DE were still stuck at their respective racial capitals at the start of PS, it meant keeping them out of the main narrative except for brief appearances like Caithe trying to catch Scarlet in Twilight Arbor or Rytlock checking out Scarlet's probes at Bloodtide Coast.

    Another, just as major reason for sidelining DE and much of the core Tyria cast was simply because of voiceactor (VA) availability. Because S1 was updated biweekly and kept devs in a constant crunch (which burned out quite a few of them over the following months with the amount of content they had to pump out), that kind of hectic schedule didn't necessarily allow for detailed long-term narrative planning beyond major story beats like what Scarlet's overarching goal was etc. Several A-list VAs who ANet had used for core Tyria simply didn't have the time to record lines every two weeks as they had other VA commitments too. This was particularly noticeable with Felicia Day, Zojja's VA, whose popularity was surging at the time and kept her busy for a long time and thus out of S1 entirely. The access to male VAs in particular ended up being so bad at the time that new characters like Marjory Delaqua and Ellen Kiel, who were originally intended to be male (we know from Peter Fries that Ellen's original name was Elam Kiel), had to be rewritten as female just to get female VAs for them. As such, using Destiny's Edge (or the Iconics as the devs called them) in prominent positions in S1 narrative was simply not feasible.

    As such, while keeping both the narrative chronology (PS and S1 taking place in the same year initially as per the devs' "Living Story" idea while players would be in different chronological spots in the PS) and VA accessibility in mind, the devs had to come up with new recurring heroes who the players could bond with in the meantime. These new heroes became internally referred to as the B-Iconics, or Biconics for short. I suppose that in order to ease the transition from DE to what eventually became Dragon's Watch, some of the Biconics ended up being related to the Iconics in some manner (Taimi = Zojja's ward; Braham = Eir's son; Rox = Rytlock's half-sister in original cut S1 ending although we don't know if that idea is still canon among the writers; and both Kas and Jory had some past history with Logan).

    This also applied to pretty much every other core Tyria NPC too depending on how their character arcs had progressed in the PS, so we couldn't have any notable development simply because players were, at the time, still in different stages of completing the PS and adding any post-PS character development for racial and order leaders and the like would've been a big spoiler. Because PS was focusing on Zhaitan, that also meant that, at least in initial stages, the devs distanced themselves from the dragon threat and focused on more local threats that would "seamlessly" integrate with the core Zhaitan experience in S1.

    Thankfully the devs reconsidered the "Living Story" approach for the latter half of S1 and began slowly integrating S1 as a whole into the main storyline as a sequel to PS by the time they decided to start using multiple seasons to tell the story rather than just being on a constant "Living Story" phase.

    Part of me wonders, though, what might've been if the devs had decided to stick with their original S1 vision rather than changing it for Season 2 and the expansion approach. Would that have meant that we would've chronologically handled all the subsequent expansion and living world villains (Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, Jormag etc.) in the same year as Zhaitan because of the concept of the ever-changing world? How many non-core maps would we have gotten for Tyria rather than mostly focusing on heavily altering already existing core Tyria maps, and would most of the new zones simply have been temporary locations never to be accessed once a few weeks' playtime had passed? How long would they have kept the spoiler-free approach of initial S1 narrative (because many people still hadn't finished the personal story) before realizing they just had to bite it and start adding spoilery character development for prominent characters to advance the story, or would they have tried to use dialogue variables (despite the costs) as long as possible as a sort of proto-phasing? It's fun to think about the possibilities even though realistically handling all of this while developing the game would've been a nightmare as the years went by despite the ambitious ideas.

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kossage.9072 said:

    @Kichwas.7152 said:
    It also didn't help that the lore folks broke canon with the very initial realize - changing the ethnicity of the Krytans to be 'caucasian' when that's NOT what they were in Guild Wars 1... Then when Living Story happened, they broke even their own canon when they added the people on the sky ships who had Charr and Humans together for a few hundred years - when the end of the Charr and Human war was only recent.

    So you had:

    • our combat engine wasn't the challenge we expected it to be
    • our lore team didn't read any of the prior lore, let alone even their own lore

    And so I think a lot of them just stopped caring.

    Shortly after this we started seeing them trying to move away from the core NPCs they had launched the game with. People started getting killed off or otherwise replaced... and the 'dragon' storyline started being something to avoid rather than explore. Granted we have finally moved the dragon plot forward, but it seems like it's been more of 'something that was around the story the new writers wanted to do, rather than what they really wanted to explore'.

    To be fair, I wouldn't necessarily call these narrative points as lore discrepancies as we have evidence to the contrary from a historical basis.

    1) Krytan "whitewashing"

    While it is a bit unfortunate that the more Mediterranean-like Krytans were mostly replaced by the Caucasian-like Ascalonians, lorewise this kind of change makes sense if we consider the 250 years between games and the Ascalonians' mindset during a time of crisis for their people.

    The Ascalonians had been displaced from their homes because of the aggressive charr invasion, and those who stuck with Rurik followed him on his dangerous trek west to seek sanctuary in Kryta. The besieged Ebonhawke, and the Foefire which had culled most of the Ascalonians who had decided to stay in their homeland, certainly didn't help matters a few decades later as far as Ascalonian population went.

    It thus makes sense that the Ascalonians, while considering themselves to be on the brink of extinction, would breed like rabbits in Kryta. While some of them would settle into what became known as the Ascalonian Settlement in Gendarran Fields, many more integrated into Krytan society once Divinity's Reach had been built in the aftermath of Zhaitan's rise flooding the coastline. So, under this historical lens it is understandable why so many present-day denizens of the Kingdom of Kryta appear to be descended from Ascalon based on skin color while a few other ethnicities would be native Krytan as well as of Canthan, Elonian and Orrian descent.

    At least Queen Jennah is decidedly Krytan in ethnicity as we can see in her skin color. :)

    If roughly a thousand brits showed up in Egypt around the year 1300, it wouldn't matter how 'pushy' they were. In 250 years they simply couldn't breed fast enough to replace the entire Egyptian population. Even if they did it today, it still wouldn't happn.

    The Ascalonian refugees were a smaller group by a vast margin because so few made it over and their kingdom was not large to begin with.

    The numbers just can't do that. The Ascalonians would largely vanish into the scene.

    We have historical examples of this. The Jewish population of Ethiopia looks decidedly Ethiopian. There's a "Chinese" population in east Africa and an African population in India - and you can only know this with DNA tests or talking to people. There's a Korean population in Mexico that... looks mestizo, and that only took 100 years.

    When groups work to keep their lines distinct, then they don't visibly vanish, but also don't "take over". The Chinese population of Jamaica mostly looks Chinese. Spainish people are still visibly Spanish in Mexico - and the Indian and Mestizo populations did not also vanish - and in this case the groups actively mix and have for 500 years.

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    I want the whole planet uncovered and be playable first. Then we can talk about GW3