How would you counter this?

Imo, the current meta is range spam and boon corrupt and warrior bubble. These do the most damage and kill the general populace of wvw players. Therefore it causes players to lose moral if they have no clue how to deal with it besides getting good.

I propose we write how we would counter it, and compare notes, therefore giving everyone a chance to balance things out.

By doing this, I think while we derp about the way things are, our fellow players will have a plan to counter these most met zerg combos.

Issue 1. Sandshade spamIssue 2. warrior bubbleIssue 3. pirate ship by revs and elesissue 4. combination of 1 and 2Issue 5. combination of 1 and 3Issue 6. combination of 2 and 3issue 7. combination of all three and others i failed to mentionissue 8. acs and other sieges.

1. the spikes can be blocked. guard f3 1 or mace and shield or dh really helps or any blocking skills.

if tormented, where you have so much corrupt, dont move to much, team cleanse by fb f2 5 4 2, which will convert condi to boons, heal the team and clear stuff. revs and wars can clear this too if light fields are dropped, ie. symbol of swifness, blast on those.

2. boon strip and range the warrior and condi him. he will not survive if done fast. necro wells do this good in combo with hammer revs.

if he pulls it off, jump out of the bubble, therefore its important to have leaping skills.

passive traits like empowering might, herald ferocity, necro lifesteal and guard toughness helps in these cases, and team stun break from herald, aura mancer ele and fb or dh or base guard. Move out, boon spam, counter it with your blocks, and bomb. also you have your own warriors to bubble them. dodge rolls by guards help a lot for base team heal or waters by eles.

3. time that they drop their bombs, when its done, rush in, pull them together and kill. revs first, then necro, then ele.

stay tight and move fast because they hurt so you can revive dowbs fast. minstrel guards on mercy runes are best here.

do issue one and 2 on them. easy farm.

4. bait the enemy, once their stuff is done, gap the distance and drop your own issue 1 and 2 and 3.

5. same as 4.

6. in these cases, wars become defensive bombs, and meat of range, thus, care if you push because it'll be instant death. time it right, bait and ve aggressive. you will have to fight in some of the bubbles and having more melees, you may survive due to passives ans stun breaks.

push with your rev cor, wars to cast bubbles on theirs, then bomb.

7. here, your experience determines what to do. Boon teams would stack and mitigate damage before, during and after the attack.

boons up, bait, counter bomb boon up. Like before condi, boons are still very good.

Also, have atleast 10 players on ts and 10 in squad. ensure everyone has a leap and is mobile and running passive traits.

10 can fight 15 to 20 bad players. And so on.

Ideal is 20 plus in group and in ts.

Currently I favor the guard rev necro ele warrior setup. also the guard rev rev rev war. or guard guard rev rev war. or guard rev necro necro war.

the cheese is 4 revs can burst a small squad to downs. necros can shade and kill. wars can lock them in place and intimidate. and guards can boon x heal and revive ppl.

think; do; win.

Sample small group versus many. This is why there should be atleast one fb in a squad.

p.s. im not really good on videos.

@Sovereign.1093 said:Sample small group versus many. This is why there should be atleast one fb in a squad.

p.s. im not really good on videos.

Since no comments were allowed on the video, I will say it here...

I wish I could find anyone to teach me how to be a firebrand.

Anyone.

Issue 1 - Use a ranger / soulbeast (probably deadye), kills the scourge easily despite how much barrier they have or healing being through at them

Issue 2 - Use a ranger / soulbeast (probably deadeye), again, many of these spellbreakers can be wiped out on Inc before their bubble is used unless they use their immunity running in, in which case screws up the entire zer's inc.

Issue 3 - User a ranger / soulbeast (probably deadye) Revs and ele's are a hell of a lot easier to kill than spellbreakers and scourge

Issue 4 (See counter to 1 & 2)

Issue 5 (See counter to 1, 2 & 3) but if you want to make their lives miserable, target the rev first, nothing is more debilitating to the zerg than having their only source of resistance killed in less than 5 seconds

Issue 6 (see counter to 2) Then the rev's & ele's are left to be sitting ducks

Issue 7 (see counter 1 & 2), but start with with the rev, again, nothing more demoralizing than wiping out a groups source of condition immunity in less than 5 sec

Issue 8 - Don't go near the tower/keep if the players refuse to come out. They'll either get bored and log, or come out and fight (and likely die)

If we try to use "wall of reflection" argument, then walk around it and fire away, it's very very easy. Ironically it only takes about 2 rangers in the zerg to eliminate the pirate. 2 rangers focusing "said" target will equate to a dead target probably in less than 3 seconds.

There is another issue, lets call it issue 9

Issue 9 - How to get players off their melee and realize this problem is solved by a couple of players hopping on ranged classes. How to get players out from being stuck in their old ways. This one is tricky...

@atheria.2837 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Sample small group versus many. This is why there should be atleast one fb in a squad.

p.s. im not really good on videos.

Your wvw server has no one sharing how to play fb? Or in your guild, a guy who knows how to play it?

F3, f2, f1 is the order of importance. Don't spam, use as need. Use your utils and elite if f3 is off, and you need emergency exits.

f3 combo is 5, 4, 3 if enemy is range, then 1 on team to add block for the team (good with communal def)

f2 on refresh 5, 4, 3 repeat. 1 if need to spam.

f1, when enemy skills are done, close the gap, 5, 3, 4, 111.

empowers if need, cleanse mantra if need.

defensive fb.

offensive fb is not my thing, but is equally effective in damage role.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Issue 1 - Use a ranger / soulbeast (probably deadye), kills the scourge easily despite how much barrier they have or healing being through at them

Issue 2 - Use a ranger / soulbeast (probably deadeye), again, many of these spellbreakers can be wiped out on Inc before their bubble is used unless they use their immunity running in, in which case screws up the entire zer's inc.

Issue 3 - User a ranger / soulbeast (probably deadye) Revs and ele's are a hell of a lot easier to kill than spellbreakers and scourge

Issue 4 (See counter to 1 & 2)

Issue 5 (See counter to 1, 2 & 3) but if you want to make their lives miserable, target the rev first, nothing is more debilitating to the zerg than having their only source of resistance killed in less than 5 seconds

Issue 6 (see counter to 2) Then the rev's & ele's are left to be sitting ducks

Issue 7 (see counter 1 & 2), but start with with the rev, again, nothing more demoralizing than wiping out a groups source of condition immunity in less than 5 sec

Issue 8 - Don't go near the tower/keep if the players refuse to come out. They'll either get bored and log, or come out and fight (and likely die)

If we try to use "wall of reflection" argument, then walk around it and fire away, it's very very easy. Ironically it only takes about 2 rangers in the zerg to eliminate the pirate. 2 rangers focusing "said" target will equate to a dead target probably in less than 3 seconds.

There is another issue, lets call it issue 9

Issue 9 - How to get players off their melee and realize this problem is solved by a couple of players hopping on ranged classes. How to get players out from being stuck in their old ways. This one is tricky...

9 is hard, which is the primary cause of derping from our fellow wvw.

in the old days, there are melee, range, and periperi players. what you mention are those fighting outside the zerg, independent yet focused on the task given to them. if applied well, can support the range and melee team in open field or when fighting in enemy teritory.

This game has more projectile hate in large scale fights than any other game I've played. Good luck getting anything through without an unblockable proc. Relying to soulbeasts or deadeyes to pick off tanky dual endure pain (and heavy resistance) spellbreakers is a silly idea. Most scourges out there are running trailblazers and have 29348765 cleanses, too.

~ Kovu

@Kovu.7560 said:This game has more projectile hate in large scale fights than any other game I've played. Good luck getting anything through without an unblockable proc. Relying to soulbeasts or deadeyes to pick off tanky dual endure pain (and heavy resistance) spellbreakers is a silly idea. Most scourges out there are running trailblazers and have 29348765 cleanses, too.

~ Kovu

how would you do it? =)

@Sovereign.1093 said:Currently I favor the guard rev necro ele warrior setup. also the guard rev rev rev war. or guard guard rev rev war. or guard rev necro necro war.

the cheese is 4 revs can burst a small squad to downs. necros can shade and kill. wars can lock them in place and intimidate. and guards can boon x heal and revive ppl.

think; do; win.So the counter to pirateshipping, ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles is to bring ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles so you can pirateship?

I dont know why I didnt think of this before, its ingenius.

Now excuse me while I go build some ACs to counter the enemy ACs.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Currently I favor the guard rev necro ele warrior setup. also the guard rev rev rev war. or guard guard rev rev war. or guard rev necro necro war.

the cheese is 4 revs can burst a small squad to downs. necros can shade and kill. wars can lock them in place and intimidate. and guards can boon x heal and revive ppl.

think; do; win.So the counter to pirateshipping, ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles is to bring ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles so you can pirateship?

How would you do it?

Once there was mellee train with some backliners (max 30%) ... counter to it ? mellee train with some backliners... if you have too much ranged (pirate ship style) they will melt and dont kill anybody ... coz they have full boons and heals...
now its pirate ship vs pirate ship.... whoever makes better clouding and have better bombs... win. So how to beat pirate ship ? with better pirate ship :D its not only about numbers once you see guild beating in 15vs30 ...With all that boon strip and corrupt you cant just run swinging with hammer or staff like brainless monkey like it was in mellee train.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Currently I favor the guard rev necro ele warrior setup. also the guard rev rev rev war. or guard guard rev rev war. or guard rev necro necro war.

the cheese is 4 revs can burst a small squad to downs. necros can shade and kill. wars can lock them in place and intimidate. and guards can boon x heal and revive ppl.

think; do; win.So the counter to pirateshipping, ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles is to bring ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles so you can pirateship?

I thought it was obvious.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Currently I favor the guard rev necro ele warrior setup. also the guard rev rev rev war. or guard guard rev rev war. or guard rev necro necro war.

the cheese is 4 revs can burst a small squad to downs. necros can shade and kill. wars can lock them in place and intimidate. and guards can boon x heal and revive ppl.

think; do; win.So the counter to pirateshipping, ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles is to bring ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles so you can pirateship?

to be obvious, we would have to have the same idea. but we do not since my counter is 40 melee 60 range. i have used this successfully and therefore i am sharing it. of course, there is more than one way to win and so your idea is also another option of which the readers can use.

@intox.6347 said:Once there was mellee train with some backliners (max 30%) ... counter to it ? mellee train with some backliners... if you have too much ranged (pirate ship style) they will melt and dont kill anybody ... coz they have full boons and heals...

now its pirate ship vs pirate ship.... whoever makes better clouding and have better bombs... win. So how to beat pirate ship ? with better pirate ship :D its not only about numbers once you see guild beating in 15vs30 ...With all that boon strip and corrupt you cant just run swinging with hammer or staff like brainless monkey like it was in mellee train.

There are still some zerg busters out there. =) but they mostly run the meta.

General Tip-Learn to move.

If you do not understand positioning, you are a bag and rallybot.

Clearly the best counter is:

1. PvF and hope anet nerfs
2. Uninstall and you'll see no more red dots

@ThunderPanda.1872 said:Clearly the best counter is:

1. PvF and hope anet nerfs
2. Uninstall and you'll see no more red dots

hehe we have way to many forum posts recently. but it's not the direction this thread is for.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Currently I favor the guard rev necro ele warrior setup. also the guard rev rev rev war. or guard guard rev rev war. or guard rev necro necro war.

the cheese is 4 revs can burst a small squad to downs. necros can shade and kill. wars can lock them in place and intimidate. and guards can boon x heal and revive ppl.

think; do; win.So the counter to pirateshipping, ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles is to bring ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles so you can pirateship?

bring more hammer rev's and aoe spam than enemy xD more power creep its the only way xD

hammer rev's hit at minimal 5k-7k (if heavy take form 4-5 revs damage will be 1sec ko'ed due skills visual clutter hide most of the skills and hammer rev is aoe) on very bunkish classes xD everything else witll insta melt even with protections on.

Melee was once meta in WvW, but that didn’t mean range were useless. Necro, ele and to some extent Mesmer were absolutely crucial to the success of the group.

Now I wonder why I even play a melee class anymore, both roaming and zerging. If anet delete all melee skills now, you probably won’t even see a difference in WvW meta; maybe just less melee noobs dying to range

...

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@ThunderPanda.1872 said:Clearly the best counter is:

1. PvF and hope anet nerfs
2. Uninstall and you'll see no more red dots

As everyone suggested, every single counter to all counter of all counter is more range and more pirate ship... It is not a new thing, it’s been like this since HoT, and has only gotten worse... i can’t even take balance discussion seriously when anet don’t take balance seriously themselves.

@ThunderPanda.1872 said:Melee was once meta in WvW, but that didn’t mean range were useless. Necro, ele and to some extent Mesmer were absolutely crucial to the success of the group.

Now I wonder why I even play a melee class anymore, both roaming and zerging. If anet delete all melee skills now, you probably won’t even see a difference in WvW meta; maybe just less melee noobs dying to range

...

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@ThunderPanda.1872 said:Clearly the best counter is:

1. PvF and hope anet nerfs
2. Uninstall and you'll see no more red dots

lol... they cant balance they would have to redesign the classes or skill xD, they rather ignore forget and keep adding more and more to make next expantion new elite trait desirable....

It is a ugly game now...

@Aeolus.3615 said:lol... they cant balance they would have to redesign the classes or skill xD, they rather ignore forget and keep adding more and more to make next expantion new elite trait desirable....

It is a ugly game now...Its more bussiness than balancing.... they need to promote new pof spec.. so how to do it ? nerf old.. new make stronger... most of them they cant make stronger mellee bruisers... they did it only with war (SB>berzerk) holo, soulbeast... so most of them u need to use to be competetive... new meta appears... (SB,firebrand,scourge) ... for roaming holo, soulbeast, mirage, deadeye(think daredevil still better) renegade is only crap spec for wvw... but rev/herald with hammer is meta... i didnt like mellee train.... repetetive and boring, brain dead.... but soon this will be almost same... for each range enemy u need your range to counter it... and still u need some mellee like sb, firebrand ...

i just think they need something like special rezistance... which is not classic boon... not stripable or corrupted ...

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Currently I favor the guard rev necro ele warrior setup. also the guard rev rev rev war. or guard guard rev rev war. or guard rev necro necro war.

the cheese is 4 revs can burst a small squad to downs. necros can shade and kill. wars can lock them in place and intimidate. and guards can boon x heal and revive ppl.

think; do; win.So the counter to pirateshipping, ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles is to bring ranged spam, boon corrupts and warrior bubbles so you can pirateship?

People need to throw away the pre POF mindset of WVW aka sustain melee ball. It sucks, and many still push it. Whats worse, they meet the occasional weak enemy, it works that time, and then they go see, it works, well played guys. No, it was not well played, it was all wrong, and it worked only cause enemy was a newbie and could not bomb correctly at the right time or use spellbreakers correctly.

Commanders are often always to blame, especially the old ones that think "Iv been playing for 5 years I know all the best" and keep pushing like mad man.

There is no countering the current stuff with anything that would not be overall weaker. But there is beating it.

This comes to another point of the bad mindset and that is people are mentally stuck to their old roles, aka I do this with this build to sustain and support, while to win, you should be doing something else to actually kill the enemy. The end goal is to kill the enemy that's how you win, and offensive skills grew stronger than defensive with this expansion so it looks foolish to focus on the futile sustain that can be broken with single bubble or well placed necrobomb anyway. Fine example is full minstrel guard/FB. So you take class that has except honor passives terrible healing power scaling, max your healing, overkill on toughness, and extra boon duration in boonstrip meta. Congratulations, you have about 20% more sustain than burn version and 0 damage when it comes to killing anything.

Your sustain is not your build or gear(well, partially), it is your play, aka move and position well to be safe, and keep harassing the enemy so they fear to push. I play burn FB or DH depending on mood and I tell you the most amazing skill is a simple wall of reflection. Do not put it in front of you, or between the blobs, put it right in the enemy face, possible even in middle of their blob, and run permeating wrath on virtues, and you will see the aoe burn you do just by reflecting stuff right in their face. Keep doing this with the wall and F3 skill, meanwhile your scourges ans revs keep bombing but they must hold some key skills (like well of corruption) in case the enemy pushes.

You keep doing that until you grind them down or you spot weakness, in that point few spellbreakers charge and you just finish the fight in matter of seconds, if the enemy does desperate melee push just have few Spellbreakers ready for that and keep the positioning and movement solid to not get caught in enemy one, and easy game. Have the range guys also on TS (no freecasting pugs) and have them bomb together and nothing will live, because the bomb rips stab + resistance itself so there is no defending against it.

One more thing that has been pissing me off is how eles are treated lately. Out of some sort of continuity they are still being put to the main parties even tho they play weaver. The old tempest ele had its place there cause he was nuker as well as healer, he was plopping the waters, he was sharing the auras. I still like to have them around, cause auras cannot be boonstripped so they are good. But most of the ele players unfortunately switched to weaver, which plays none of those roles, it does a bit more damage, but cannot water on call, does not aurashare, aka does 0 for the team, and except static field(which they also usually cannot plot on call) does not even CC really. Thats also very important, its the bombs that bonnstrip or CC as well as damage that win fights, not those that just damage. Just damage can be dodged, avoided, blocked, etc, just damage works again, against bad enemy and a win there should not encourage your choices, its the defeat in the hands of the stronger enemy that should make you think what are you doing wrong.

Do you know what this pirateship meta reminds me of?Kitten WvW fights back when the game just released, when everyone would pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew from range and avoid every melee confrontation as possible since everyone's playing an uplevel with absolutely trash gear.Also reminds me of kitten EOTM with everyone in zerker gear pew pew pew pew.

Lemme tell you, that's kitten boring, but x 99999999999999 worse because of larger, longer, stronger AOE and atrocious condi

Melee train brought in interesting maneuvers and positioning plays to get your hammer/sword into the face of the opponent instead of this pew pew aoe aoe kite kite kite kite mess. And it's not like range classes were useless in the melee train meta, necros and eles were the primary dps... Melee had it's useful role and range also had it's useful role. Unless you've only been feeding in lower tiers, you should know how utterly pointless melee is against most good pirate ship groups.

@Sovereign.1093 said:Sample small group versus many. This is why there should be atleast one fb in a squad.

p.s. im not really good on videos.

Spot on. I use FB for my guild of 4-6 and the tomes are life savers. I really wish I had a second FB with me but we do run a pure heal bot aura tempest who does a very good job for what I ask of him, though when you have 10+ power builds pounding on you spamming 11111111 with condi kids spamming their tanky sourge and hero holosmiths stunning then running it can get quite overwhelming at times and the meta will take over.

The core issue with guild wars 2 IMO is there's no such thing as a high risk high reward build, it's all high reward as most of these classes run away constantly and have too many get out of jail free cards. Too much crutch not enough fight.

@ThunderPanda.1872 said:Do you know what this pirateship meta reminds me of?Kitten WvW fights back when the game just released, when everyone would pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew from range and avoid every melee confrontation as possible since everyone's playing an uplevel with absolutely trash gear.Also reminds me of kitten EOTM with everyone in zerker gear pew pew pew pew.

Lemme tell you, that's kitten boring, but x 99999999999999 worse because of larger, longer, stronger AOE and atrocious condi

Melee train brought in interesting maneuvers and positioning plays to get your hammer/sword into the face of the opponent instead of this pew pew aoe aoe kite kite kite kite mess. And it's not like range classes were useless in the melee train meta, necros and eles were the primary dps... Melee had it's useful role and range also had it's useful role. Unless you've only been feeding in lower tiers, you should know how utterly pointless melee is against most good pirate ship groups.

Most T1/2 fight-centric guilds run 2x guards and 1 war in every party. How is melee useless when it's 3 5ths of all squads?