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ANet, please officially alter the three pillars


Ohoni.6057

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When the game launched, it was described as having "three pillars" to it, PvE, WvWvW, and PvP. In modern discussions of the game, some players continue to insist on these three pillars as somehow being co-equal components of the game, even though the game itself has long since moved on from that reality. I believe it would be helpful for an official state of the game to be made, redefining the three pillars.

This most often becomes an issue when players lump content like Raids and Fractals in with "PvE," when those elements of the game are more distantly removed from the open world PvE most players seem to prefer than WvW is from sPvP. There are those who say "Open world PvE doesn't need Legendary armor, because PvE already has it, in raids!", an argument which completely ignores that only a tiny fragment of the game's PvE population spends any significant time in raids, and even less care to. We also have the issue of player expectation, where if PvP and WvW are supposedly "two out of three pillars," that they should have a significant amount of developer attention, when the fact is that they've long since dried up as far as the overall playerbase is concerned. It also leads to too many balance decisions being made based on how it'll play in PvP modes, with many of the PoF specs disappointing because they seem to have been designed to counterplay other players rather than to be fun in the open world, and several abilities nerfed because players could abuse them in WvW zergs.

I think that the devs need to get real with us, and perhaps with themselves, and lay out where the actual players spend the majority of their time in game, and move away from the "three pillars" model. Don't "ghost" the community by just pretending that nothing's changed since the launch ideals, be straight about where things stand.

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Three pillars, and each one has different "sub pillars"PvE

  • Fractals
  • Dungeons (dead)
  • Raids
  • Open world (Meta events, bounty hunter, etc)
  • Living World

PvP

  • structured PvP (Ranked)
  • Free (unrakend)
  • fortress (dead?)
  • Tournaments

WvWvW

  • 3 Bordes
  • 1 eternal battlegrounds
  • The Edge of the Mists (dead)

As you can see, the "pillar" of PvE is the one that has more content and therefore the one that has the most attention.

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No need to change the three pillars, as stated by the poster above me...PvE consists of OWPvE, Fractals(and Dungeons), and Raids; then there is still WvW and sPvP/PvP...so it hasn't changed any, other than adding in additional PvE content from when the game first started, when it was only OWPvE and Dungeons, now they've added Fractals and Raids...whether everyone participates or not, it's still PvE.

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@TexZero.7910 said:Hello ???

Fractals, Dungeons, Raids they're all PvE and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. You are fighting mobs that are not players that's literally the definition of PvE.If for some reason you still wish to dispute thishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

See what I mean? We need some official feedback from ANet to head these sort of arguments off. Right now they're allowed to just wander into the weeds with no guidance from headquarters.

@Kapax.3801 said:Three pillars, and each one has different "sub pillars"As you can see, the "pillar" of PvE is the one that has more content and therefore the one that has the most attention.

Right, but my point is, when you hear the phrase "three pillars," it calls to mind three equal pillars holding up a single roof. Well in GW2's case, you instead have one massive pillar with all sorts of branches and offshoots that stick out in all directions like an oak tree, and then you have two little conjoined and stubby pillars that come nowhere near supporting the roof at all.

Why not instead stack the PvP-instanced pillar on top of the PvP-open world pillar, and just call that the PvP pillar, and then take the instanced group content from the PvE pillar and make that a third pillar? Then you'd have:

Open World PvE

  • Open world (Meta events, bounty hunter, etc)
  • Jumping Puzzles
  • Quest Chains
  • Living World

Instanced PvE

  • Fractals
  • Dungeons
  • Raids

PvP

  • structured PvP
  • 3 Borderlandss
  • Eternal battlegrounds
  • The Edge of the Mists

Those would be better balanced (even if the Open World PvE one were still bigger, it would at least be closer).

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@Ohoni.6057 said:There are those who say "Open world PvE doesn't need Legendary armor, because PvE already has it, in raids!", an argument which completely ignores that only a tiny fragment of the game's PvE population spends any significant time in raids, and even less care to.No, the problem with that argument is that people are seemingly willfully ignorant of their own double standards pretending that sPvP and WvW are somehow not subcategories of PvP and then say nonsensical stuf like "but X, Y, and Z is all PvE" as if this is some kind of valid argument that can't be applied to the former categories.

@Ohoni.6057 said:We also have the issue of player expectation, where if PvP and WvW are supposedly "two out of three pillars," that they should have a significant amount of developer attention, when the fact is that they've long since dried up as far as the overall playerbase is concerned.I don't think that these modes having a comparably small player base is any reason to not trying to improve them. If anything the question should be "What about them are they trying to improve?".

@Kapax.3801 said:Three pillars, and each one has different "sub pillars"PvE...

PvP...

WvWvW...

I don't think that dividing the content like this makes much sense since WvW is essentially another subcategory of PvP. If you really want to split the game in tree parts then having it like:

Player versus Environment:

  • JPs
  • adventures...

Player versus Monster:

  • dungeons / fractals
  • OW PvM
  • raids...

Player versus Player:

  • sPvP
  • WvW...

would make the most sense since these are the parts of this game which are fundamentally different on the most basic level. There is also some content which is essentially a mixture of the above mentioned categories but these are the ones that actually warrant a clear cut distinction.

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The point of redefining these categories is lost on me. I don’t think it would achieve anything, other than recategorising them. I’m assuming Anet shuffles people around depending on content deadlines, not how game modes are defined.I just see this as an extravagant “Give owPvE a way to obtain legendary quality armour”, so why not say that, rather than this useless stuff?

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@Haleydawn.3764 said:The point of redefining these categories is lost on me. I don’t think it would achieve anything, other than recategorising them. I’m assuming Anet shuffles people around depending on content deadlines, not how game modes are defined.I just see this as an extravagant “Give owPvE a way to obtain legendary quality armour”, so why not say that, rather than this useless stuff?

It's about firmly redefining these modes role in the game to the players, so that they no longer cling to outdated framing from before launch. I don't believe it will actually change much, but sometimes making the philosophical distinction is important to the conversation. It's like when a president gets up and gives a speech on an issue, a speech is not policy, but it can help to adjust how the public perceives the issues.

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@Ohoni.6057 said:It's about firmly redefining these modes role in the game to the players, so that they no longer cling to outdated framing from before launch. I don't believe it will actually change much, but sometimes making the philosophical distinction is important to the conversation. It's like when a president gets up and gives a speech on an issue, a speech is not policy, but it can help to adjust how the public perceives the issues.

Except I'm not seeing any issues. Seems to me that you are claiming most people just play open world pve and there should be a legendary armour acquisition method for those but you've bogged your idea down in such a useless fluff piece that it isn't even clear.

What are you expecting out of this? Anet to come out and say the game is much more diverse than it was and is no longer based on just 3 pillars? Isn't that the whole point of an MMO? It changes and develops over time. I don't see how you can look at a statement they made at launch and expect it to hold 100% true more than 5 years later or expect them to stay coming out and saying "oh hey guys the game changed over the course of these 5 years".

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@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:The point of redefining these categories is lost on me. I don’t think it would achieve anything, other than recategorising them. I’m assuming Anet shuffles people around depending on content deadlines, not how game modes are defined.I just see this as an extravagant “Give owPvE a way to obtain legendary quality armour”, so why not say that, rather than this useless stuff?

It's about firmly redefining these modes role in the game to the players, so that they no longer cling to outdated framing from before launch. I don't believe it will actually
change
much, but sometimes making the philosophical distinction is important to the conversation. It's like when a president gets up and gives a speech on an issue, a speech is not policy, but it can help to adjust how the public
perceives
the issues.

We always had instanced content in the pve category even from the start "dungeons" just becouse they added more with fractals and raids dont make it any less pve.

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What needs to be done is remake the classes and traits (again since anet slacker design was a shoot on own ANet foot), this class concepts are the most dull ever made, everything is stack boons and condis, with more of the same addons within the next expantions this game balance becomes a game whatever spec u take it feels the same, boon spam, condi spam, of powercreep based on phisical 1 shot to be a pleasent game for the simpletons of the players.

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@Ohoni.6057 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:See what I mean? We need some official feedback from ANet to head these sort of arguments off. Right now they're allowed to just wander into the weeds with no guidance from headquarters.

We don't really. You could have made your point without using jargon at all. You could have just said, "hey ANet, what are your long term plans for the game, in terms of all the different ways we play the game? Which parts do you see getting more attention, which less? And perhaps let us know why. "

Instead, you made it about pillars vs modes, about whether ANet is ghosting us (spoiler alter: they aren't; they just don't let us in on all the meetings nor should they).


PS it seems to me that ANet's actions speak loudly here in terms of what's going on:

Traditional PvE gets the most attention, in part because it has the most people and in part because it's the easiest to change, add to, modify, update, overhaul etc. Raids gets a small team (with a historically disproportionate attention from rewards/design teams), fractals a small team, and no team at all for non-fractal dungeons. There's also no more guild content team.

WvW is incredibly challenging to change and got a sweeping update for rewards — we don't know what (if anything) they have planned in terms of balancing match ups or changing the state of play. Similarly, PvP is difficult to balance, also got a sweeping update in rewards — it looks like ANet is sticking with the quarterly skill/trait balance plan, and not much in the way of new maps, new contests, or even much in the way of new anti-cheating protocols.

There are apparently separate teams for QoL, rewards, designs, and of course QA and gem shop. Those seem to be allocated on an "as needed" basis.

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@Ohoni.6057 said:We also have the issue of player expectation, where if PvP and WvW are supposedly "two out of three pillars," that they should have a significant amount of developer attention, when the fact is that they've long since dried up as far as the overall playerbase is concerned.

Do you have some kind of source about this? Any kind of official comment about? Statistical data to prove that pvp and wvw "dried up"?

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The term PvE is not something you change around depending on your own desire or whim.

PvE or Player Versus Environment is commonly known as content where a player or a group of players compete against their surroundings or AI controlled enemies. The term is used to differentiate the content from PvP which stands for Player Versus Player.

As such one could argue that WvW indeed falls within the PvP category. Dungeons, Fractals, Raids and any other instanced content definitely is PvE though.

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@TexZero.7910 said:Hello ???

Fractals, Dungeons, Raids they're all PvE and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. You are fighting mobs that are not players that's literally the definition of PvE.If for some reason you still wish to dispute thishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

Funny.

WvW, sPvP and Activites they're all PvP and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. You are fighting opponents that are actual players that's literally the definition of PvP.If for some reason you still wish to dispute thishttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_Worldhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player

( ;) sorry not sorry)

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@costepj.5120 said:I go into WvW regularly and rarely engage another player in combat. I mostly roam, flipping camps and other objectives by killing NPCs. Sometimes I just escort dollies for a while. WvW is a crossover between PvE and PvP, so why not represent it as a third category?

I rarely fight another player in WvW. It IS a mix between PvE and PvP; always has been, and that's why it is differentiated as a separate mode.If one feels one absolutely must include other content in PvP, one would have to choose certain holiday and other Activities, but, of course, not all.

Does it truly matter what content is called, anyway? If there is a particular point, just make it.

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@Kapax.3801 said:Three pillars, and each one has different "sub pillars"Possibly, but Ohoni's analysis of the state of PvE splits things along a very real and important fracture line.

There's open world PvE, plus (most) story, that people can and do play solo, or with a few friends and such people as they bump into along the way.

And there's the rest (raids, fractals, dungeons), that demand the right number of players, a definite level of gear and specs, and more organised, disciplined groups and play.

I know of plenty of people (myself included, obviously) who do the first whilst rarely, or even never, dipping into the second. And whilst it's less important to the mode of play, when it comes to things like gear and spec's, we're rarely recognised. So, for example, gear we might quite like to get our hands on, is pretty much locked behind multi-player content we're almost certain never to do. And, yes, as one of that group, I feel precisely as described about the new PoF elites - mostly a big "(meh...)". I'm an altoholic, but there's precious little in there, in any of the latest elites, of any use or interest to me in the game as I play it.

Sure, I don't need new elites; but - you know what? I'd like to have some fun with new ways of doing things as well, rather than watching yet another set of niche specs get handed out to the PvP and raid players.

Re that "(most) story", above:I'm thinking about the finales of the base story and of HoT, of course, where I took exception to being exepected to do it in a party. I won't group with random strangers to get me through "my" story. It's mine, and I want to be able to solo it. I am, at most, prepared to do it with RL friends. So I didn't complete the base PS at all until they nerfed it to a level that could be solo'd, whilst I've completed the final chapter of HoT exactly once (with friends).

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@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@costepj.5120 said:I go into WvW regularly and rarely engage another player in combat. I mostly roam, flipping camps and other objectives by killing NPCs. Sometimes I just escort dollies for a while. WvW is a crossover between PvE and PvP, so why not represent it as a third category?

I rarely fight another player in WvW. It IS a mix between PvE and PvP; always has been, and that's why it is differentiated as a separate
mode
.If one feels one absolutely
must
include other content in PvP, one would have to choose certain holiday and other Activities, but, of course, not all.

Does it
truly
matter what content is called, anyway? If there is a particular point, just make it.

The point trying to be made is differentiate OWPvE from Fractals/Raids to justify the former to have it's own path to Legendary gear.

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I get the feeling that the OP is trying to get Anet to restructure the modes so that they have a stronger case to argue for legendary equipment that they want to be included in what the solely choose to do in game.

The OP prefers open world and thus seems to be arguing for it to be treated as its own game mode so they can then argue, like is a very recent thread, for legendary items such as armor to be made available in open world PvE.

PvE is PvE. This includes dungeons, fractals, and raids. Just because someone happens to not like one or more, doesn’t mean that they’re any less a part of PvE. As far as other game modes, there is sPvP which is purely PvP and WvW which is a cross between PvE and PvP.

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@TexZero.7910 said:Hello ???

Fractals, Dungeons, Raids they're all PvE and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. You are fighting mobs that are not players that's literally the definition of PvE.If for some reason you still wish to dispute thishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

Nobody says otherwise. However, if we were splitting the modes only according to that, we would have had two modes, not three. PvE and PvP. Both WvW and sPvP are all PvP, and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. And yet they constitute two different modes not one.

@STIHL.2489 said:You have 4 game modes at this point.

Team Based PvE (Fractals, Dungeons, Raids)Open World PvE (PS, LW, Open Maps)Team Based PvP (sPvP)Open World PvP (WvW)This is the current situation. What Ohoni asks for is merely for people to stop ignoring the first (PvE) split, while acknowledging the second (PvP), when in truth both PvX modes are equally divided.(and no, please, do not pretend that the PvP submode differences are greater than PvE ones. They aren't)

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