Axe needs a bit more defense

Anyone else feels like its a good weapon but lacks defensive capabilities? I mean, its a melee range weapon with only one short evade and Lingering Thoughts root you in the animation. I know many have already suggested an evade time frame on Lingering Thoughts, but i personally think it'd be op since the skill is pretty spammable (especially when traited). What would be nice, tho, is a 4sec Blind on Lingering Thoughts. Blind wouldn't help you escaping like Evades would, but it certainly would help in melee range while fighting.

i'm personally totally fine with it being a purely offensive weapon

..............................if it had any offensive capabilities that weren't due to a bug that already got patched

both skills do no damage, and both also put us in a bad position 90% of the time, since Lingering Thoughts just propels us forward without stopping, but has no evasion frames, then lol @ RNGesus pathing of Axes of Symmetry... it's just a bad weapon....

it's not just about "adding i-frames to LT making it OP" or not

you don't give an aggressive weapon no damage with 2 skills that work against you to just put you in danger

you get nothing out of this weapon

the weapon was poorly designed, period

@Alpha.1308 said:i'm personally totally fine with it being a purely offensive weapon

..............................if it had any offensive capabilities that weren't due to a bug that already got patched

both skills do no damage, and both also put us in a bad position 90% of the time, since Lingering Thoughts just propels us forward without stopping, but has no evasion frames, then lol @ RNGesus pathing of Axes of Symmetry... it's just a bad weapon....

it's not just about "adding i-frames to LT making it OP" or not

you don't give an aggressive weapon no damage with 2 skills that work against you to just put you in danger

you get nothing out of this weapon

the weapon was poorly designed, period

I wouldn't go this far. What i do with Lingering Thought so it actually lands, is root the person with iSwap from sword, swap weps to Axe and then Lingering Thoughts while he's immobed. Works fine, but certainly can't compete against the sword on any level.

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:Works fine, but certainly can't compete against the sword on any level.

@Alpha.1308 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:Works fine, but certainly can't compete against the sword on any level.

What weapon can when playing Mirage? None. So that's not exactly a negative.

Technically Axe has access to blind through the whirl finisher on lingering thoughts :P Though that isn't much help without a smoke finisher field to use lingering thoughts in.

I actually think axe is fine as an all offensive weapon, design wise. It just doesn't live up to the offensive aspect that it needs to in order to justify such low damage though.

I wouldn't like more Blindness tbh. In PvE I have nothing against it, but in PvP/WvW Mirage's bursty condition output is too huge atm imo, and with this change it may be even higher thanks to Ineptitude (to my mind this trait is one of the reasons for mirage's crazy condi burst, as I never feel so heavily pressured when I face non-ineptitude mirages compared to the ones using this trait, but that's offtopic).I'm not a great pvp'er tho so it may just be an issue with my skill (or lack thereof), but I do find condi mirage burst problematic to deal with, be it Axe Mirage or Sword Mirage.What I'd like to see done to Axe is being able to control movement during Lingering Thoughts' animation (similar to Weaver's Twist of Fate). Post-patch Axe ambush needs help too, mostly in PvE, but so do all other ambushes.

@bart.3687 said:I wouldn't like more Blindness tbh. In PvE I have nothing against it, but in PvP/WvW Mirage's bursty condition output is too huge atm imo, and with this change it may be even higher thanks to Ineptitude (to my mind this trait is one of the reasons for mirage's crazy condi burst, as I never feel so heavily pressured when I face non-ineptitude mirages compared to the ones using this trait, but that's offtopic).I'm not a great pvp'er tho so it may just be an issue with my skill (or lack thereof), but I do find condi mirage burst problematic to deal with, be it Axe Mirage or Sword Mirage.What I'd like to see done to Axe is being able to control movement during Lingering Thoughts' animation (similar to Weaver's Twist of Fate). Post-patch Axe ambush needs help too, mostly in PvE, but so do all other ambushes.

Sword ambush needs help o.O? Its like the last thing that needs any kind of help lol. if they were to remove the root animation from Lingering Thoughts, but didn't gave some kind of damage metigation, you'd still gonna be eating all the scourges aoe etc. Axe of Symmetry 3/4sec evade on a 10sec CD is just not enough. If axe was a ranged weapon like it is on Ranger, it'd be fine. But that's not the case. If you want to use long animation skills such as Lingering Thoughts, you're in the midle of everything and that leads to you receiving more damage than actually dealing.

I still think that somewhere very early in Mirage development, right as they came up with the name and realized they had no other idea for the spec at all beyond that, one or two lone devs had this upstanding goal of giving the spec a purpose. A unique element. A cohesive theme.

This or these people came up with "displacement" as the overarching theme of Mirages. Only their colleagues and managers then wanted all effort spent on Weaver development for marketing purposes, so they never got to invest time beyond an initial rushed version. Hence LT, AoS, MA and all being so buggy and so rubbish most of the time.

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@bart.3687 said:I wouldn't like more Blindness tbh. In PvE I have nothing against it, but in PvP/WvW Mirage's bursty condition output is too huge atm imo, and with this change it may be even higher thanks to Ineptitude (to my mind this trait is one of the reasons for mirage's crazy condi burst, as I never feel so heavily pressured when I face non-ineptitude mirages compared to the ones using this trait, but that's offtopic).I'm not a great pvp'er tho so it may just be an issue with my skill (or lack thereof), but I do find condi mirage burst problematic to deal with, be it Axe Mirage or Sword Mirage.What I'd like to see done to Axe is being able to control movement during Lingering Thoughts' animation (similar to Weaver's Twist of Fate). Post-patch Axe ambush needs help too, mostly in PvE, but so do all other ambushes.

I meant that all ambushes need improvements in PvE, because they are all bad there. As for PvP, sure, Sword ambush is very strong, if not too strong.

About Axe, I haven't played with it for too long, but I've seen others using it and I find its defense to be okayish. Obviously if you stand still in AoEs you're going to die, but it's the same with every other weapon. Mirage has quite a bit of jump in/out potential, so it helps.Anyway, my point is that Blindness on skill 2 isn't a good idea. It wouldn't really increase Axe's defesive capabilities, but, as I said, could lead to increased condi burst, which may be ok in pve, but not so much in pvp imo.Being able to move during LT's animation is basically a QoL for this skill, and I'd argue it would help you survive as you wouldn't be forced to whirl through the AoE, but you could just change your direction in the middle of the animation to try to escape said AoE. It may not be a lot, but still something.Alternatively, somebody proposed some time ago that Lingering Thoughts should restore a bit of your endurance. I think it could be nice. This way, you wouldn't have fairly spamable evade frames, but it would still improve your survival because you'd be able to dodge more often (and additionally, use your ambush more often).

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:Anyone else feels like its a good weapon but lacks defensive capabilities? I mean, its a melee range weapon with only one short evade and Lingering Thoughts root you in the animation. I know many have already suggested an evade time frame on Lingering Thoughts, but i personally think it'd be op since the skill is pretty spammable (especially when traited). What would be nice, tho, is a 4sec Blind on Lingering Thoughts. Blind wouldn't help you escaping like Evades would, but it certainly would help in melee range while fighting.

How much defense do you need on a mainhand weapon? An 8 second teleport + evade + target break is a pretty strong move, defensively. And we're talking about MIRAGE here. We aren't exactly short on ways to avoid damage! I really haven't felt weak on defense using axe at all.

I'd rather they do something about the anti-synergy in the class (shatters/phantasms/clones) or add a little punch back to ambush attacks than add more defense to mirage. I really don't see a need for it.

@bart.3687 said:I wouldn't like more Blindness tbh. In PvE I have nothing against it, but in PvP/WvW Mirage's bursty condition output is too huge atm imo, and with this change it may be even higher thanks to Ineptitude (to my mind this trait is one of the reasons for mirage's crazy condi burst, as I never feel so heavily pressured when I face non-ineptitude mirages compared to the ones using this trait, but that's offtopic).I'm not a great pvp'er tho so it may just be an issue with my skill (or lack thereof), but I do find condi mirage burst problematic to deal with, be it Axe Mirage or Sword Mirage.What I'd like to see done to Axe is being able to control movement during Lingering Thoughts' animation (similar to Weaver's Twist of Fate). Post-patch Axe ambush needs help too, mostly in PvE, but so do all other ambushes.

As a Mesmer pvper, I have to agree with how ridiculous ineptitude bursts are. To top it off most of the skills used in it are insta cast, so it doesn't even feel satisfying to use :/

At least with chrono mom bursts requires setting up clones which can be denied with cleave, aoe, or well timed evades. Then you need to ensure the moa lands and follow up.

In contrast, for mirage I typically just precast torch skills into jaunt and follow up with shatters. Of course when I see how much damage I do, I honestly just get mad at braindead such a strong burst feels. I still hope mirage pvp eventually takes on a more illusionist play style that I hoped for pre release rather than just enabling crazy personal damage output .

@tartarus.1082 said:

@bart.3687 said:I wouldn't like more Blindness tbh. In PvE I have nothing against it, but in PvP/WvW Mirage's bursty condition output is too huge atm imo, and with this change it may be even higher thanks to Ineptitude (to my mind this trait is one of the reasons for mirage's crazy condi burst, as I never feel so heavily pressured when I face non-ineptitude mirages compared to the ones using this trait, but that's offtopic).I'm not a great pvp'er tho so it may just be an issue with my skill (or lack thereof), but I do find condi mirage burst problematic to deal with, be it Axe Mirage or Sword Mirage.What I'd like to see done to Axe is being able to control movement during Lingering Thoughts' animation (similar to Weaver's Twist of Fate). Post-patch Axe ambush needs help too, mostly in PvE, but so do all other ambushes.

I don't disgree on that. But that's the Mirage balance problem, not Axes.

@Alpha.1308 said:i'm personally totally fine with it being a purely offensive weapon

..............................if it had any offensive capabilities that weren't due to a bug that already got patched

both skills do no damage, and both also put us in a bad position 90% of the time, since Lingering Thoughts just propels us forward without stopping, but has no evasion frames, then lol @ RNGesus pathing of Axes of Symmetry... it's just a bad weapon....

it's not just about "adding i-frames to LT making it OP" or not

you don't give an aggressive weapon no damage with 2 skills that work against you to just put you in danger

you get nothing out of this weapon

the weapon was poorly designed, period

It still hits hard in pvp wvw

@zealex.9410 said:It still hits hard in pvp wvw

the living joke of the 3 game modes we have?hurray(wvw is my personal favorite, mind you)

problem is, everything works there, you fight incompetent players 80% of the time

also, it just..... doesn't hit hard there...

unless you meant condi

and if that's the case, any competent player you run into that actually dies to that, would die to ANY condi build, just for sheer lack of cleanse, they.... just got countered in their current build, it's rock paper scissors with how bloated condi is right now

but in that scenario, staff is more than likely going to be better for condi, you'd have more defensive options and range, and it's already your go-to weapon, allowing you to run scepter, which is the same if not a better main hand condi weapon compared to axe in a pvp situation....

it's the same problem over and overmirage didn't add anything mesmer/chrono didn't already offer, and axe is no exception, it almost helped in pve, but it's already "nerfed" (fixed, necessary, but also a disappointment that it's not just any freaking better baseline)

we got yet another pvp dualing line, as if mesmer even needed that, and even then, axe is still outshined by staff/scepter in pvp due to the lack of defensives options for it, talked about in the original post, but only because it doesn't offer more offensive capabilities

if it was more threatening, it'd be fine for a vicious offensive weapon, using brute force for its defense (coupled with the mesmer's graceful forms of evasion)but, it's not scary, at all, in any situationso it just flops around everywhere being a bad weapon

The whole point of mirage is using mirage cloak to cover cast skills so the specific weapon of mirage doesn't need so much baked in defence. If anything the only additional evade ought to be on the 3rd hit of the axe auto chain - so similar to the evade on our underwater spear auto chain or like Ranger's greatsword auto chain. That would incentivise running through the auto attack chain in melee range.

Axe 2 is fine - I like the low cooldown and it does good damage in wvw and pvp. The more I play with it the less of a problem I have with it. I don't know what kind of buffs it needs for raids because I don't play them. A 3 clone axe 3 into F1 or F2 hits (and crits) damn hard and works in power, hybrid or condi (my preference being hybrid). On that note, axe 3 is excellent defence both through target drop and the evade.