Is Renegade really going to be that bad...?

As the title asks, Renegade can't really be that bad can it? I have seen quite a lot of "hate", if you will, on these forums and reddit alike and I just don't get it. Is the elite really going to be that much of a pile of we know what or is it more that the complainers tend to be more vocal? Ok, not a fair call, maybe more like "more passionate" of the Rev players are more vocal, but still, doesn't look good.Either ANET has read the posts and hopefully have made a few changes or they did what most have said and are releasing an unfinished build/elite and leaving us to deal with it.I have put a lot at stake with this new elite in that if it isn't any good for raids I won't be doing any more. Yea, I know, that only hurts me but its more along the lines of what's fun to play really and being the same ol' cPS for every fight has grown old.In 6 days we shall see (well more given testing and all) and I think until then I might stop reading these forums as its really starting to get me down. I wanna see/read about people being pumped up about a class, not gloom and doom. Sadly it seems like other classes are cursed as well? Bummer..... :(

I think the Renegade will be nice to play, I really like the idea of the shortbow and calling "allies" to help me out.Revenant in general need a rework on the energy/legend system.

Even if Revenant shines no where, I love this class.It is the only class I play, and I use it or try to use it in all game modes.Sadly for PvE raids I can't find anyone :(

But be proud, when you win. You know you didn't need a overpowered class!

Renegade is fine, consider it upgrade to base condi revenant. Shortbow is the problem, condi duration on SB's skills are too low to make it any good compared to mace/axe. So unless you need to stay ranged I doubt anyone would use SB at all.

Genrally shortbow is a fast weapon. look at shortbow on other classes....So lower stacks could stillbe balanced. It will also serve as a ranged conditions weapon whcih was lacking for revenant until now.

@Simeonus.9237 said:Renegade is fine, consider it upgrade to base condi revenant. Shortbow is the problem, condi duration on SB's skills are too low to make it any good compared to mace/axe. So unless you need to stay ranged I doubt anyone would use SB at all.

I think you are overreacting. Renegades can trait 25% increase to bleed duration, which is more than enough to cap out on with viper gear. And it only takes a smoldering sigil to get fire into the same territory.

If no changes are made, condi renegade will be quite overpowered. During stress test managed to do almost 14k dps to a champ mob with 0 buffs on me, with no perfected rotation and having to avoid attacks all the time. With raid buffs i expect it to be in 35-37k range.

This a bit complicated.

SB was disappointing. It does not deal much damage. It was sluggish and with no survivablity tools. The only role it currently fills is attacking mobs in PvE where you must be at range.

If we switch to axe/mace things work out pretty well. It surely is an upgrade to condi damage, particularly in a raid environment. Though this is pretty much the same game play we currently have on live. So nothing new here... look at other elites and how they offer vastly different game plays from core and hot elites.

As for sPvP, renegade offers no tools to deal with condi, aside from grand master utility that reduce their damage. No blocks or evades. CC break on heal. No mobility tools. This makes it the worst legend to use in sPvP.

My biggest concern is that renegade fails to provide new forms of game play. It feels more of the same for condi build with a damage upgrade that works only in PvE environment. This problem extends way beyond energy or damage tuning.

@Quget.1670 said:I think the Renegade will be nice to play, I really like the idea of the shortbow and calling "allies" to help me out.Revenant in general need a rework on the energy/legend system.

Even if Revenant shines no where, I love this class.It is the only class I play, and I use it or try to use it in all game modes.Sadly for PvE raids I can't find anyone :(

But be proud, when you win. You know you didn't need a overpowered class!

You can kite hands xD

@Cynn.1659 said:If no changes are made, condi renegade will be quite overpowered. During stress test managed to do almost 14k dps to a champ mob with 0 buffs on me, with no perfected rotation and having to avoid attacks all the time. With raid buffs i expect it to be in 35-37k range.

35-37k is hardly overpowered, it wouldn't even be the top of the chart currently, since several Tempest builds hit 40k. And who knows how high certain builds will get with the new elite specs.

35k would put us in the top tier with several other classes.

I mean, it's clear they had the least work put into Renegade at the time of the demo weekend, so maaaaaaybe, with that extra month and a half of work it'll be a little closer to what all the other classes are getting.

BUT, that said, what renegade brings to the table does nothing to address any of the major problems with Revenant. And a lot of those problems are only going to be more glaring when some of the other new elite specs enter the game. (Those new Condibomb and Boon rip spam elites are going to just ruin us in pvp)

And all in all, it's just a bad design standpoint... The other classes elite specs, take their core abilities, and augment them in some new and interesting way. Revenants just get... a different stance to pick from and a new buff. It's like rather than have Herald/Renegade take core revenant and enhance it in a way that makes it feel elite and well tied together, they are just there to do most of the heavy lifting while you use your core legends to refill your energy. Hardly the same as, say an elementalist getting new ways to interact with their attunements, or a warrior getting new ways to spend adrenaline and use bursts, or a necro getting different forms of their shroud, or a mesmer getting new ways to use their clones/phantasms, or... etc... We're literally the only profession who's elite spec doesn't really affect our core and just lazily tacks something extra onto the end.

As far as raiding goes, it'll for sure be a dps upgrade to both condi and power revenant, but we'll have to wait and see if it'll even come close to hanging with how insane the other elite specs are in dps right now... It probably will not. And, I can maybe see some groups going 1 druid/1 ventari renegade instead of 2 druids in Condi Compositions. Aside from that, I don't think it's going to zomg-change-the-meta. Firebrand + Renegade won't be more efficient than a single chrono for quickness/alacrity, since the renegade would have to dedicate 100% of their energy consumption to keeping that alacrity up. Maybe if they added a PvE trait where when you gain Kalla's Fervour you pulse 1 second of alacrity to your sub or something, then maybe it could work... But that's pretty op, so I wouldn't expect our alacrity generation to see any boosts to make it competitive.

In conclusion, I would love to be wrong, obviously... But I think Renegade is just going to be another eye-roll in a long series of Revenant's not finding their place in the game eye-rolls. And PvP/WvW Core Rev/Herald is going to have a REAL rough time vs the invasion of spellbreakers/scourges/holo's/firebrands/mirages that are coming.

Maybe there'll be some new PoF Rune who's 6 set bonus is "Where you gain Kalla's Fervour, you instantly deal 30,000 damage to any nearby raid bosses." Then we'll be solid gold! :dissapointed:

@Fractured.3928 said:

@Cynn.1659 said:If no changes are made, condi renegade will be quite overpowered. During stress test managed to do almost 14k dps to a champ mob with 0 buffs on me, with no perfected rotation and having to avoid attacks all the time. With raid buffs i expect it to be in 35-37k range.

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

In PvP Renegade has no chance: is weaker than condi Herald and condi core Rev. Power Herald MAYBE still will be fine, because half of new specs are really weak in PvP, but the thing is that after two years the best option will be to keep using the same power Herald as day 1 in HoT. Same can be said about roaming.

In PvE the Renegade will be a condition upgrade over the current builds, but with the gameplay being mostly the same. If some new specs do enhance their damage output then Renegade will be back to the start celd. And about the support, Ventari can't beat the healing numbers of a Firebrand.

From what little time I spent with the Renegade during the demo weekend and stress tests, here are the problems I have with it:

Shortbow:

• Bloodbane Path (skill 2) will miss most of it's shots if the target is moving. It fires a bunch of arrows from portals randomly placed around the target's current position, but because the arrows fire in a straight line, anyone who is moving in any direction will cause most of the shots to miss.
• Sevenshot (skill 3) has a number of problems. First, if any of the 7 portals end up on uneven terrain or are clipped into the landscape, they simply won't activate. This means you only really get 7 shots on perfectly flat terrain with nothing nearby. Otherwise, you get far fewer shots. Second, the apex point of the 7 shots can actually be controlled if you change your ground targetting option to 'Instant'. This lets you shoot all 7 arrows at an enemy any distance within the ability's range. I assume it's a bug, but I actually like that fuctionality more than the forced apex being some distance away.
• All skills have an energy cost. Spiritcrush costs 15 and Scorchrazor costs 20, which just seems really extreme to me considering they also have 8 and 10 second cooldowns respectively

Legendary Renegade Stance:

• All the skills are very picky with ground targeting. If you are on slightly uneven terrain, they won't activate at all. I made a video of this from one of the demo weekends
  showing that that Spiritcrush and Citadel Bombardment will work on uneven terrain, but the skills that summon spirits won't.
• Brakrazor's Bastion (heal skill) is a ground targeted ability with very picky placement. This means if you are standing on uneven terrain or a small ledge or something like that, you simply won't be able to use this heal. It just won't activate at all.

Anyways, I worry that people will take the current condi rev build, replace one spec with the Renegade spec, maybe set the shortbow as an off weapon just in case you can't melee, but then continue with Demon and Dwarf stance, Mace/Axe weapons, and repeat the same rotation we use today. I guess that's not really a 'problem' per say, but it would be kinda lame to get a whole new elite spec only to use it for it's passive bump to condi damage. :( Then again, maybe I'm wrong. We'll have to see how the final balance looks and figure it out from there.

yeah, looks quite unlikely that renegades will play much different from current condi revs, kalla is just a straight up upgrade to condi rev, since she allows us to pair two condi legends. I heard the bleed spirit is pretty good, so im going to take advantage of it for sure. and I dearly miss not having a ranged wep as condi, will be sweet for sure. Jalis is going -out!- Maybe anet will surprise us and buffs shortbow to be primary weapon viable. That would sure make for a different playstyle.

Renegade will be trash in PvP/WvW.

In PvE it's virtually the same as playing mace/axe condi revenant but instead of switching to jalis you'll swap to kalla and channel her ulti until you have to swap back.

No, you will not get to use shortbow. It's a terribly weak weapon. No, you won't really get a new playstyle.

@LucianDK.8615 said:yeah, looks quite unlikely that renegades will play much different from current condi revs, kalla is just a straight up upgrade to condi rev, since she allows us to pair two condi legends. I heard the bleed spirit is pretty good, so im going to take advantage of it for sure. and I dearly miss not having a ranged wep as condi, will be sweet for sure. Jalis is going -out!- Maybe anet will surprise us and buffs shortbow to be primary weapon viable. That would sure make for a different playstyle.

I'm not convinced the Bleed spirit in it's last seen state would beat the torment generated from Jalis hammer strikes... But we'll see. Maybe in Kalla, Bleed spirit + now is when you have the energy for orbital bombardment will beat it tho.

Performance-wise, there's a lot of potential with Renegade, even if it's not as fancy as things like Holosmith.

The short version: PVE condi rev will get a mild boost to DPS due to Kalla's Fervor. Otherwise, it is really useless. The shortbow is buggy, underpowered, and terrible. The utilities are too expensive and unreliable. The F skills are more expensive and more terrible than the utilities. The traits are obtuse and don't help with anything. It has nothing useful to offer in PVP, WvW, or power builds.

I'm quite hyped for Renegade. PVE wise it's gonna be awesome. Power builds get free 20% crit damage, 33% crit chance, and a legend that actually is doing damage in a raid setting (shiro is negliable damage boost if we are already provided quickness from elsewhere).Condi builds get 20% extra condi damage for free with Kalla's Fervor. I wouldn't call that a "mild boost".

Shortbow may need some tweaks but i can't imagine it being worse then the hammer for ranged dps. And finally a good ranged condi weapon.Kalla's legend may bring a nice dps boost as well, as asides mallyx most legends are supportive, not dps oriented.

Ofc all that is being said with PvE in mind. In sPvP or WvW summons are questionable.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:I'm quite hyped for Renegade. PVE wise it's gonna be awesome. Power builds get free 20% crit damage, 33% crit chance, and a legend that actually is doing damage in a raid setting (shiro is negliable damage boost if we are already provided quickness from elsewhere).Condi builds get 20% extra condi damage for free with Kalla's Fervor. I wouldn't call that a "mild boost".

I think that you're missing part of the picture here.Using the Renegade traitline for the +20% theoretical damage boost with Kalla's Fervor doesn't comes free: has an opportunity cost.The current "meta" for condi Revenant in PvE raids uses Corruption + Devastation + Invocation. To equip the Renegade traitline you need to discard one of those. Discard Invocation and you will lose a +20% crit chance, a +7% raw damage under fury and a breakstun and 5 secs of fury each time you swap a legend. Discard Devastation and you will lose a +20% bonus damage against foes under their 50% HP, +7% damage vs foes with vulnerability, etc.

So Renegade doesn't magically buffs your damage as a blank gain: it does at the cost of some other damage enhancers.

You can't say Kalla is a straight buff because it has fervor now and is technically a condi dps spec. It's not what it's supposed to be, and you're going to give up a secondary weapon for shortbow and loose the utility you once had for a ranged weapon that does unreasonably low condi damage. The stance might see some uses, but then you're giving up a stance that would provide you survival skills. The extra spirits aren't really needed when you have mallyx. When I'm running a build I usually have my main one that meshes with my build, then I have a secondary one that helps make up for areas I'm lacking in. Kalla provides me with nothing new or better. The traitline I don't think is too terrible, but you give up herald traits and glint stance for it. Performance wise and design wise this spec is most likely going to remain a dud, and it will just get higher numbers to compensate. But, I don't think enough people are going to find it fun.

I will try it out for a little bit because it's new and some of the animations are cool, but I'm sure I'll drop it quickly whenever I need to be effective.

Devastation is probably the easiest to discard, as fury plays so much better with kalla. Plus her traits can improve bleeding damage with 25%, and duration with 25% too if you have fury. And kalla gains vigor when you gain fury, which increases endurance generation, and you have 33% increased crit at full endurance.

For condition builds, it might be worth noting that the Devastation trait line's damage modifiers doesn't apply to conditions, but to physical damage. The +7% damage modifier for targets with Vulnerability, modifies physical damage (though the Vulnerability in itself does apply to condition damage). The +20% damage to targets below 50% health, also physical damage. That obviously doesn't mean the trait line can't be used in conditions oriented builds though, and it is a potential source for +225 Ferocity to your allies, which may or may not contribute more to a group's combined damage per second than say replacing it with Invocation for a personal damage boost to both physical and condition damage. I'm leaning towards Corruption, Invocation and Renegade as my personal trait lines of choice, but I'll need to run some tests and crunch some numbers after the 22nd before I make up my mind.

@Absconditus.6804 said:For condition builds, it might be worth noting that the Devastation trait line's damage modifiers doesn't apply to conditions, but to physical damage. The +7% damage modifier for targets with Vulnerability; modifies physical damage (though the Vulnerability in itself does apply to condition damage). The +20% damage to targets below 50% health, also physical damage. That obviously doesn't mean the trait line can't be used in conditions oriented builds though, and it is a potential source for +225 Ferocity to your allies, which may or may not contribute more to a groups combined damage per second than say replacing it with Invocation for a personal damage boost to both physical and condition damage. I'm leaning towards Corruption, Invocation and Renegade as my personal trait lines of choice, but I'll need to run some tests and crunch some numbers after the 22nd before I make up my mind.

Interesting knowledge for sure, would definitely want to hear what you discover.

For PvP and WvW the base Revenant lacks survivability (IE: Mostly condi management that doesn't involve the clunky tablet mechanic) to make Regenade a thing over Herald. The spirits can be CC'd which makes them pretty much useless in those environments as they get cleaved down very easily or hit with the ample amount of AOE CC that happens and negates their effects.

For PvE it'll just add to the existing condi spec. The 20% Condi damage add at all ranks with maxed Fervor can outperform either Devastation or Invocation provided we can attack from sides/behind. I still think the Renegade spirits, specifically the Bleed one, will out perform Jalis Hammers because it allows up to 5 people to proc bleeds using your condi damage/duration/etc. Of course this is also dependent on the fight and if AOE CC mechanics also target the spirits and their effects are disabled then that would also be a dud. Short Bow will be nice for open world PvE where being melee was annoying but that's about it. Renegade also offers near permanent Alacrity as well so there could be something there.

All around a weak mix. It definitely feels like they had a bunch of left over ideas from other classes (as they admitted themselves with the opening portals and shooting through them being Engineer originally) and just kinda tacked them all on together. I guess we can't really complain, we did ask very loudly for a ranged condi weapon.