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Questions about the gods and Balthazar


Keiv.8752

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Good day people,

I have some questions regarding the lore of the gods and Balthazar:

  1. Since when do the gods have knowledge of the Elder Dragons? Until Kormir ascended to godhood or before?
  2. Is there any scripture or dialog where Balthazar is not a jerk? Is just that a lot of people said that in PoF he is out of character, but I remember that since GW1 when I read Kaolai story from Tahnnaki Temple... he killed him because he couldn’t tolerate a defeat!!!! So ever since I have never like him totally (still he is a badass warrior and fire elementalist)

Thank you for your answers and have a nice day!

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I'll answer them in order:

  1. It's murky but most likely they did know beforehand thanks to The Forgotten. The origins of the Forgotten is tricky because some sources claim they were present during the last time the Elder Dragons awakened and some that they turned up with the gods and were the Gods' loyal followers. We do know that they were the ones to free Glint from Kralky's influence and thus had the knowledge to pass on to the Gods.

  2. Nope. Always a jerk.

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@Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931 said:I'll answer them in order:

  1. It's murky but most likely they did know beforehand thanks to The Forgotten. The origins of the Forgotten is tricky because some sources claim they were present during the last time the Elder Dragons awakened and some that they turned up with the gods and were the Gods' loyal followers. We do know that they were the ones to free Glint from Kralky's influence and thus had the knowledge to pass on to the Gods.

  2. Nope. Always a jerk.

Thanks, I wonder if we will get later a story book explaining the meeting of the forgotten and the gods.

So why people overreacted to Balthazar actions in PoF if he has been always a jerk? I mean if he did that to poor Kaolai, then what we expected to happen after all his fellow gods told him to avoid the mightiest of all wars vs the dragons (I believe facing 6 beings equally or more powerful than Menzies would be quite a feast)

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I think that the biggest reason that people have a problem with Balthazar going bad doesn't have as much to do with Balthazar (who at best was Bipolar) but when you boil it all down, it changes our perspective on the gods in general. It feels like an attack on what has been assumed, up to this point, to be a benevolent group of gods. There were evil ones, but up until this point none of the main pantheon (Balthazar, Grenth, Melandru, Dwayna, and Lyssa) have been shown fully in an evil light. Balthazar had done some mean stuff before, but never something like letting the world die so that he could prove himself the strongest (to our current knowledge).

And now with Lyssa being speculated to have ulterior motives as well, it feels like the gods will now be villains, which is something that I could not support or stand behind.

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@Narcemus.1348 said:I think that the biggest reason that people have a problem with Balthazar going bad doesn't have as much to do with Balthazar (who at best was Bipolar) but when you boil it all down, it changes our perspective on the gods in general. It feels like an attack on what has been assumed, up to this point, to be a benevolent group of gods. There were evil ones, but up until this point none of the main pantheon have been shown fully in an evil light. Balthazar had done some mean stuff before, but never something like letting the world die so that he could prove himself the strongest (to our current knowledge).

And now with Lyssa being speculated to have ulterior motives as well, it feels like the gods will now be villains, which is something that I could not support or stand behind.

I believe that Balthazar was pushed in that direction by the other gods by not trusting him going to war with the dragons... perhaps in his mind he believed that Tyria was gonna hold down if they were victorious (this is a theory). Or perhaps he was totally affected by the outcome of his battle with Menzies (we don’t know yet how that ended and perhaps there’s more to that) and only wanted more war (this would explain why the gods rushed in taking away his divinity)

My theory on Lyssa are the following:

  1. She helped Balthazar to not leave humanity alone against the dragons (this backfire in a way)
  2. She saw that Balthazar was affected by Menzies and instead of having him rot there for eternity, she could give him one final war worthy of him

It would all depend once we get Lyssa and Menzies again in the history, but I suspect that we won’t see another god betraying us in the future. What I do believe may betray us are the Spirits of the Wild... or Cantha....

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Season 2 was the first real confirmation of the gods having knowledge of the Elder Dragons, and this is via artifacts predating the Exodus of the Gods. In PoF we're told the Forgotten shared at least some of their knowledge on the Elder Dragons with the gods as well, though how much the Forgotten's knowledge consisted of at the time, and how much they shared, remains unknown. But the "Tome of the Five True Gods" as it's called is said to be one of the Priory's leading sources for Elder Dragon information (alongside jotun stalea and the Tome of Rubicon and other dwarven relics).

Balthazar is presented as honorable by every single Zaishen, Eternal, and priest. Including by people who have met him personally. While this means that all we got was second and third hand accounts, and no doubt biased ones, there's never a shred of evil in him hinted at. He's actually only presented as "a jerk" once in GW1 - and that is his anger management problem shown in Kolai's story (it's not that Balthazar couldn't tolerate defeat, but that he was tricked so expertly that he lost his temper).

Balthazar in GW1 was depicted as a combative god with anger issues, but otherwise honorable, just, and noble. The "good side of war" if you would. GW2 introduced a less good view of him with him carrying the severed head of his father (but no context as to why he did such), and idols with his power turning normal mortals into battle-crazed berserkers (effectively).

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Question #1 has been pretty thoroughly answered.

For #2... Balthazar was pretty much always a jerk, but with a strong side of "but he's our jerk". Anger management issues aside, he was presented as a good who valued honour and competition over mere slaughter, being just as happy for gladiatorial contests in which people don't permanently die as for "real" battle (with the Zaishen organising such tournaments in his honour) and he's always been presented as having humanity's best interests in mind. For instance, during Wintersday his priests side with Grenth, but not out of general jerkishness, but because he knows that something bad is coming and they want humanity to be preparing for it rather than wasting time making merry - a similar line of reasoning to Rytlock's in the PoF epilogue.

In this context, the Balthaddon that was willing to destroy Tyria just so he could gather a few trophies is highly out of character. ArenaNet could have given him a "for the greater good" justification where we're still forced to stop him, but where we could at least see how his actions are justified - instead, we get someone who is willing to see Tyria overloaded with magic and destroyed just for the sake of fluffing his own ego, just as Abaddon did before him. Furthermore, not only was he not even willing to consider the possibility that if he waited for a bit he might be able to collect his trophies without destroying Tyria and get thanked for the help, his actions actively damaged Glint's legacy and the efforts to find a solution that would allow the Elder Dragons to be removed from the picture with Tyria intact.

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Thanks for these inputs... perhaps I wasn’t viewing him as the good side of war... probably the way to justified his craziness would be the outcome of his battle with Menzies. I hope Anet would at least confirm that the outcome of that battle left him all crazy bloodied for battle, which led his decisions... or do you believe there is no way to “redeem” this change of attitude? But poor Kaolai... he didn’t deserve to die hahaha.... and probably the father was related to Menzies, same father different mother

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I find it tricky to call his behaviour in PoF out of character because we know so little of Balthazar as a person. The stories of him that have been passed down will undoubtedly changed over time to suit the needs of his priests and followers, so they are unreliable. Arguably the most reliable ones will have been the fables we find in Siren's Landing due to them being lost with Orr and only now recovered, but even then we don't know how long the Orrians had these fables and how they might have changed. We only know that they haven't been altered within the current timeline.

The orders that are dedicated to him, the Zaishen being one, do not specifically represent Balthazar or his opinions. They can only do what they believe will satisfy their god, so it's hard to attribute personality traits to Balthazar through the actions of the Zaishen.

Kormir is potentially the most reliable source outside of Balthazar himself but considering she wants us to kill Balthazar, she's hardly going to go out of her way to show him in a good light. What we can gleam from her journal is that the gods clearly are not human and do not share the same interests and values as humans. They aren't going to value human life the way we do and they have information they are acting on that we are not privy to.

The only time we can actually say Balthazar is being in character is when we personally interact with him. Sure, we're only seeing one side of him because we are enemies but it is the most accurate representation we have of Balthazar as a person. Anything else is speculation and saying he's being out of character is just inaccurate. This isn't to say that I don't think he has a good side, it's just that we currently have no solid evidence of him being a decent person. I definitely think the fault lies with the writers for only showing us Balthazar's negative aspects. I think it would have been more interesting to see Balthazar show genuine care for the fate of the humans of Tyria or try to help the Elonians. Add more to make us pause and struggle with the idea 'are we really doing the right thing here?'

That wasn't the case though and we have to look at the evidence we currently have. In our interactions Balthazar shows himself to be determined, cunning and ruthless. As of right now, all we can do is hope we will get the opportunity to learn more of him in future.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:He's actually only presented as "a jerk" once in GW1 - and that is his anger management problem shown in Kolai's story (it's not that Balthazar couldn't tolerate defeat, but that he was tricked so expertly that he lost his temper).

Could you tell me the source where it is said that Koali tricked Balthazar into defeat or is it your interpretation of the story? It seems I missed that part.

Mostly the end of the tale is not mentioned.Balthazar honored the Soul of Koali and inducted him to the Tahnnakai Temple. A temple full of the greatest Heroes of Cantha.The reason why Balthazar got angry is not really told.It is just said that Balthazar got angry and slew Koali.Why he got angry? Because he lost? Why he honored his soul afterwards? With all the other Balthazar talk this story did not really fit.

Balthazar is also given the title Scourge of the prideful.So what if Koali was just too proud in the face of a god and Balthazar punished him not because he lost but because a mortal showing too much pride?But Balthazar honored the Soul of Koali for his win and induced him to the Thannaki Temple?

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@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:He's actually only presented as "a jerk" once in GW1 - and that is his anger management problem shown in Kolai's story (it's not that Balthazar couldn't tolerate defeat, but that he was tricked so expertly that he lost his temper).

Could you tell me the source where it is said that Koali tricked Balthazar into defeat or is it your interpretation of the story? It seems I missed that part.

Mostly the end of the tale is not mentioned.Balthazar honored the Soul of Koali and inducted him to the Tahnnakai Temple. A temple full of the greatest Heroes of Cantha.The reason why Balthazar got angry is not really told.It is just said that Balthazar got angry and slew Koali.Why he got angry? Because he lost? Why he honored his soul afterwards? With all the other Balthazar talk this story did not really fit.

Balthazar is also given the title Scourge of the prideful.So what if Koali was just too proud in the face of a god and Balthazar punished him not because he lost but because a mortal showing too much pride?But Balthazar honored the Soul of Koali for his win and induced him to the Thannaki Temple?

There's probably not supposed to be a lot of hidden meaning or conjecture here. We probably got the full story on the temple events and not some missed context or anything. Balthazar lost to some guy, he got angry and killed him, then when after he calmed down a bit realized that maybe he was a little harsh in his ill temper and honored Koalai for his bravery to stand up against a god. And subsequently die for it.

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For reference:

"When the gods walked Tyria a thousand years ago, the Ritualist Kaolai, an old man even then, challenged Balthazar to a game of Nui in exchange for sparing a village that had offended the god through some long-forgotten breach of etiquette. Balthazar laughingly accepted and the game began. Seven days later it ended with Kaolai the winner; the villagers were spared. But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple." From the GW1 wiki, which gets it from the Tahnnaki Temple plaque.

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@Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931 said:I find it tricky to call his behaviour in PoF out of character because we know so little of Balthazar as a person. The stories of him that have been passed down will undoubtedly changed over time to suit the needs of his priests and followers, so they are unreliable. Arguably the most reliable ones will have been the fables we find in Siren's Landing due to them being lost with Orr and only now recovered, but even then we don't know how long the Orrians had these fables and how they might have changed. We only know that they haven't been altered within the current timeline.

Only mostly true, there were also people talking directly to the gods even during GW1's time. And yes, to the gods themselves, not just to avatars. Namely among the Eternals, but I do believe we talk to NPCs that met Balthazar, just as we had talked to NPCs that had met Grenth, Dwayna, and Lyssa (I'm not so sure about Melandru).

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:He's actually only presented as "a jerk" once in GW1 - and that is his anger management problem shown in Kolai's story (it's not that Balthazar couldn't tolerate defeat, but that he was tricked so expertly that he lost his temper).

Could you tell me the source where it is said that Koali tricked Balthazar into defeat or is it your interpretation of the story? It seems I missed that part.

Mainly that it was a game that Kaolai challenged Balthazar too. Such games of strategy will often involve moves of deception or the like in order to throw your opponent off-guard. Especially when it lasts seven days.

@Nogothanc.5014 said:The reason why Balthazar got angry is not really told.It is just said that Balthazar got angry and slew Koali.Why he got angry? Because he lost? Why he honored his soul afterwards? With all the other Balthazar talk this story did not really fit.

Balthazar is also given the title Scourge of the prideful.So what if Koali was just too proud in the face of a god and Balthazar punished him not because he lost but because a mortal showing too much pride?But Balthazar honored the Soul of Koali for his win and induced him to the Thannaki Temple?

Kaolai is never presented as proudful man in any of his dialogues or in the story. And the narrative of the story of Kaolai strongly implies that Balthazar's fit of rage was caused by his loss, and now Kaolai's attitude afterward.

Something tells me that if Kaolai was boastful of his victory over Balthazar or something like that, he would not have inducted Kaolai's soul into Tahnnakai Temple.

@"Lycarian.9627" said:If I remembrer correctly, Balthazar said during PoF that he want more power for fight somes unknowns enemies. I believe he say something like that during a fight or a dialogue : "I need this power for fight them".

I think you're recalling the Heart of the Volcano instance where Balthazar says:

Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light... But they will see me now.

And later:

Balthazar: I was weak... I'm feeling much better now.

Here, it turns out, he was referring to the Six Gods.

I checked all PoF instances of Balthazar talking and there was no other such line. He either talks about fighting the Elder Dragons, or the Six Gods, and very directly.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931" said:I find it tricky to call his behaviour in PoF out of character because we know so little of Balthazar as a person. The stories of him that have been passed down will undoubtedly changed over time to suit the needs of his priests and followers, so they are unreliable. Arguably the most reliable ones will have been the fables we find in Siren's Landing due to them being lost with Orr and only now recovered, but even then we don't know how long the Orrians had these fables and how they might have changed. We only know that they haven't been altered within the current timeline.

Only mostly true, there were also people talking directly to the gods even during GW1's time. And yes, to the gods themselves, not just to avatars. Namely among the Eternals, but I do believe we talk to NPCs that met Balthazar, just as we had talked to NPCs that had met Grenth, Dwayna, and Lyssa (I'm not so sure about Melandru).

The NPCs that met Balthazar are dead guys and none of them speak of Honor like the Zaishen did. Infact the Eternal Forgemaster reprimanded our assumptions that the Eternals are heroes by saying: "You may look on these Eternals as heroes, [character name], but it is far easier to destroy than it is to create."

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