[Suggestion] Stop making Story Bosses Hard (LS4 Spoilers) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Suggestion] Stop making Story Bosses Hard (LS4 Spoilers)

I made this suggestion back in my HoT review, and I'm going to make it here; Stop making PvE story bosses hard. I'm currently sitting in the active fight with Scruffy 2.0, dead, having died at least a dozens times, and I honestly just want to throw my hands up. The point where you frustrate your player to quitting is bad game design. I understand, as game developers, you want to make the fight epic - oh no! Taimi suffocating! I care and have to hurry, but I have massive amounts of projectiles, burning, aoe's, and a completely incompetent NPC that DOES NOT use his reflect as he should... that means I don't care about Taimi, I just want to get out of the fight.

So here are some suggestions:

  • Lower the Bosses HP pool: The boss fight is taking way too long, and it is not enjoyable, take down the HP
  • Stop with the rapid fire AoE's AND projectiles: Slow down on the boss's attack
  • Relax on the complicated moves: This isn't a raid, it's a story boss, being solo'd, there's no need to make so difficult
  • Program a better companion: In every fight I did during LS4 (Sunspears, Corsairs, the rag tag team, Braham) they stopped attacking and just stood there.. seriously during the inquest swarm they all just stood there

I know the automatic response from the forum goers will be "get better," sure, I'm willing to do that, I've tried doing that, but ANet keeps making their story bosses more and more difficult. This isn't fun anymore. Please chill out on the difficulty of the story bosses.

<13456711

Comments

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chickenooble.5014 said:
    I disagree with you guys. I think the story content should have a level of difficulty that provides a challenge to the player.

    I agree with this, and with the guy who says the fights sometimes takes too long. I think ArenaNet could reduce the health of some bosses, but not simplify their mechanics or reduce the damage they do as the OP is saying.

    This fight was IMO easy - considering how you could just float down, to the safe area below the boss, and recover there. I have died a lot in every mission of the Season 4, but the safe areas in that last boss made it somewhat boring.

    The fight I really have issues with was the one in the Underworld, considering how we couldn't access our inventory to change builds. I also think ArenaNet relies on control effects way too much, and sometimes they use way too many visual effects in fights. But the Daybreak boss didn't go overboard in either of those aspects.

    @TheUndefined.1720 said:

    • Program a better companion: In every fight I did during LS4 (Sunspears, Corsairs, the rag tag team, Braham) they stopped attacking and just stood there.. seriously during the inquest swarm they all just stood there

    That's on purpose. The behavior you are describing is what the NPCs do when they die. Otherwise, a player could die, go AFK and sooner or later the NPCs would kill everything.

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • Ayumi Spender.1082Ayumi Spender.1082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's one online game I used to play a bit where the story never scaled you. If the story is meant for level 10, then everything is level 10. If you're level 80 then you just blast through it.
    Of course as the story goes on, the higher the enemy levels get as well.
    By this point of course some people might go through the story if new, rather fast and if the story was meant for level 80, people could not touch it.

    The way the company fixed this to allow certain people to at least experience the story and have some fun, or at the very least just want to see the story and not care on the challenge as that's not what they was aiming for, they set up 3 modes for it.
    Easy mode where the enemies will be a bit easier, and around your level if you're lower than the default level. They would be less aggressive and the HP is lowered.
    Normal mode where it set the way it's meant to be originally.
    Hard mode where they went out of the way for those that want the challenge with even more aggressive than usual enemies and the enemies being HP sponges.

    The difference here though is those that went through easy get to experience the story and get the minimal of what they were supposed to get for completing the story (in this case, if you're supposed to get a mastery, you would), but the only way to get the sure rewards or better is to do the story on normal or higher.
    Meaning, if you wanted like the items, or achievement, or whatever you're supposed to get after beating the story that isn't a mastery... you have to play it on normal or higher.

    I don't see an issue on if Arenanet did this, but I can't see them doing that.

    They could've done that on the ghost eater, but they just nerfed it to hell... so...

    I guess just nerf these stories?

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree the bosses could have more mechanics instead of more health because more health just makes a boss a snoozefest.
    That said, they shouldnt get any easier because some bosses are already trivial.

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Mea.5491Mea.5491 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    I have no problem soloing story instances BUT some fights make me physically tired because they're so tedious. It would be nice if we could choose difficulty because I just want to see what happens in the story. For the amount of effort we have to put into some of these long boss fights, the story instance rewards are actually kitten, so I don't really understand why can't we just have an easy mode without rewards or whatever. I'd gladly skip the junk to finish story faster.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    Some of the fights can be tedious. I would not say they are excessively hard though. The Scruffy fight did not need the extra spark phases, that was just repetitive to the extreme.

    Story fights should always involve mechanics and difficulty, because that's how you teach players mechanics so that they will be ready for other content. If you don't you end up with SW:TOR where you have players perpetually whining in the Oricon map chat about the Bronthium beast because they managed to get all the way to endgame without ever learning how to use their interrupt skill.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Much like Vayne said in another topic, I think the best approach to a difficult fight is that it's a puzzle. Just as when playing a game of sudoku you don't try to replace all numbers with 1s, in many fights players are expected to use the tools available to them - using a different weapon, changing traits, picking new utility skills, and so on.

    If the game were so easy that someone who doesn't care for any of that could kill any boss in less than 5 minutes, it would not be anywhere close to being a challenge to players who actually do bother with the game's mechanics.

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • @Erasculio.2914 said:
    Much like Vayne said in another topic, I think the best approach to a difficult fight is that it's a puzzle... in many fights players are expected to use the tools available to them - using a different weapon, changing traits, picking new utility skills, and so on.

    Couldn't agree more. My first grader and I went to his book fair the other day. He asked that I purchase some book about video games. "Ready, Set, Let's Play" is what it's called I think. Just last night he and I were reading through the pages and we read a section about video game bosses. In that, it explained that bosses normally have a weakness or specific point to attack. We also talked about how enemies normally follow patterns and have "tells," like when Bowser is climbing the tower at the end of 3D World. My son understood that. Then I explained to him how people have weaknesses that he'd have to exploit in life, too.

    But, yea, to the OP - you need to use everything that you have to get over a fight. If you have a boss that has frequent break bars then you better go with some CC. If you're getting caught in Scruffy 2.0 scatter blasts then you need to find ways to block or reflect damage if you can't dodge.

    They call me "Mr. Pres."

  • Cragga the Eighty Third.6015Cragga the Eighty Third.6015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    Personally, I found the PoF and LS4 boss fights much easier and less stressful than the LS3 boss fights. There was that weird elemental thing we faced with Marjory and Kasmeer, and it took over two hours before I figured out the mechanics of it. There was that fight where we had to glide and drop bombs on the hellhounds. And I died so often fighting Lazarus that every single bit of my armor was gone and I walked away in my swimsuit. (Forgot I had repair canisters because they had never been needed before!) And I originally joined GW2 during Head of the Snake, and fought Cadeucus and his jade constructs without even knowing that a Counter Magic mastery existed in the then-locked chapters of LS3.

    Rather than nerfing the battles for everyone, since some people love challenging fights, if it's not possible to make difficulty levels, maybe you could have some sort of emergency overrride that lets people who have reached the end of their frustration limit to simply skip to the end of the battle and go on with the story.

  • Lunarlife.5128Lunarlife.5128 Member ✭✭✭

    Did Ls4 part 1 (Part 1 for all the following as well) on my Weaver ascended somewhat proper gear and it was challenging. Mirage mesmer ascended somewhat proper gear and it was ok. Scourge and it was a joke.
    I can't imagine doing LS4 staff build, Chrono or core mesmer. Minion or power reaper is still a joke.

    While I'm not super experienced with the game (Maybe 500 hours) it seems really off that certain bosses & events destroy some but not others.

  • @Cragga the Eighty Third.6015 said:
    Personally, I found the PoF and LS4 boss fights much easier and less stressful than the LS3 boss fights. There was that weird elemental thing we faced with Marjory and Kasmeer, and it took over two hours before I figured out the mechanics of it. There was that fight where we had to glide and drop bombs on the hellhounds. And I died so often fighting Lazarus that every single bit of my armor was gone and I walked away in my swimsuit. (Forgot I had repair canisters because they had never been needed before!) And I originally joined GW2 during Head of the Snake, and fought Cadeucus and his jade constructs without even knowing that a Counter Magic mastery existed in the then-locked chapters of LS3.

    Rather than nerfing the battles for everyone, since some people love challenging fights, if it's not possible to make difficulty levels, maybe you could have some sort of emergency overrride that lets people who have reached the end of their frustration limit to simply skip to the end of the battle and go on with the story.

    Then the fight is kinda pointless for most would skip it

  • I think it's safe to say that a lot of people think the fights drag on for too long (based on the comments here). That said, I agree with the people who say the fights should be challenging. You are fighting Gods and Elder dragons, they aren't just going to roll over the moment you appear. Make them too easy and you reduce the impact of the whole story.

  • Raven.1524Raven.1524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Drew.1865 said:
    If I want a challenge I’ll raid or run a dungeon. The difficulty and health pools of the living story bosses are ridiculous in my opinion. Difficulty should also be tied to an actual reward. If I was rewarded it would be worth it.

    Dungeons, really? They feel seriously nerfed, specially after the release of elite specs that seems to destroy every dungeon out there. (Unless you are referring to fractals, in which case you could just ignore this comment)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    This is really odd, because Braham is immune to damage and he always comes to revive when you are downed.
    If you were talking about the earlier fight with the Warden, then yes that fight has a boss with CC that can knock the npc trying to revive you, or you can be far away of them and they can't come on time. But Scruffy 2.0 has an immortal npc ready to help you at any time, and the platform is small enough that he is always available. Maybe try staying closer to him next time?

    EDIT
    Plus, Scruffy's attacks can't even reach you outside the platform, so you can move out, regenerate your health out of combat (Scruffy doesn't regenerate), then go back in. I used that "trick" to get the achievement that requires you not to get downed during his burst phase. I fought him normally, then when he was at low health, I went outside to change my entire build to 100% survival focus, since you can't damage Scruffy at that point. Got the achievement really easily.

    Scruffy has more than enough fail safes for players who are not "skilled" enough to fight him, so I don't understand the complaint for Scruffy. The Warden had no fail safes and was a far more difficult fight.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Narrrz.7532 said:
    I'd be down to see a difficulty selection option introduced to the story panel. You play on story mode for no challenge, achievements disabled & minimal rewards, normal mode for one-off rewards/achievements, and challenge mode for special achievements and repeatable rewards.

    I'd love a challenge mode version of Scruffy where there is a force field around the central platform so you can't just move out when you want. Also, no Braham to keep Scruffy in combat and no revives for the player.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The last boss fight was like the 1 case where i was genuenly anoyed by the boss. Its not jard, im not saying that but all the cc and esp the last phase is just tedious.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lunarlife.5128 said:
    While I'm not super experienced with the game (Maybe 500 hours) it seems really off that certain bosses & events destroy some but not others.

    That's the idea. If you see a boss that you cannot defeat, try changing your build to something more suited to fighting that boss.

    The only way for all builds to defeat all enemies equally would be if everything died in one hit.

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How these bosses are supposed to be hard?
    Zerk DD thief here ( thief since LS1 ).

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    I didnt find the Scruffy fight to be particularly difficult, but it was annoying. I detest the invulnerability stage concept. If Scruffy can be made to be invulnerabble to the point that only a specific item, which is highly unlikely to be present on any other battlefield, then why not build an army of scruffies and never worry about any enemy again?

    Plot armour is truly the finest armour.

    "Hey Taimi, make me a Scruffy, and add a mechanical or explosive emergency eject mechanism".

    I'm impressed at her ability to design and pack in so much weaponry and defensive power into such a small golem whilst also running a number of very important experiments and an entire research staff.

    As a fellow Asura and a Snaff Savant to boot, I must say I feel a little... what's the word we use for all other races in this situation... no, I mean the polite one... yes, inadequate.

  • Dashiva.6149Dashiva.6149 Member ✭✭✭

    I thought the difficulty was about right, if above average. My main issue was that the fight was a bit long for my taste (too big healthpool) and I got slightly bored halfway.

  • Odinens.5920Odinens.5920 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chickenooble.5014 said:
    I disagree with you guys. I think the story content should have a level of difficulty that provides a challenge to the player. If you, the player, can't figure out how to beat a fight then you die. That's how games should work; you should be rewarded to overcoming a challenge and punished for failing. The punishment in this game isn't drastic, either. You get to restart at checkpoints, you come back with your health, you don't lose items and the bosses seldom recover health in story content. You guys have it easy.

    If you're incapable of beating content on your own consider the following:
    1) Change your build. I can't think of a single class that doesn't have a good build for PvE content. That means you might need to change your weapon set, specializations or skills. When you die and respawn at a checkpoint you can make changes (in most cases) to help overcome obstacles in the current fight.
    2) Take some instant repair canisters with you. When you die so much that your armor is broken then you're not very effective. Repair before getting back into the fight.
    3) Party up with some friends. If you can't do it by yourself then bring others along.

    I'm not going to "git gud" or anything like that... but, the content isn't that hard. I think some people just need to learn to use all of the tools they have at their disposal and go into fight with the right gear and skill. For what it's worth, I run around in full exotics on all my characters (at best) and change my skills/weapons frequently to match whatever situation I find myself in. You guys should try that sometime.

    I did die once, and I agree that maybe the fight was a bit too long, but I chalked that up to me being melee and not having many opportunities to actually hit the boss. Once I figured out what I had to do it was easiER, but still not straight up easy. Maybe if the stupid platform things weren't there that you had to jump just right to get over it would be less stressful. I don't think the fight needs to be made "easier," just shorter.

    I just last night finally got around to finishing my griffon mount and I thought the elite ghost thing in the library was harder to kill than Scruffy. I actually did have to switch my build up a bit to beat that thing.

  • Skimming the other comments, I may repeat some voice opinions but: In many console games I've played, they have a 'Difficulty Level" you can select before you play. Easy, Moderate, Hard, and OMG We're all going to die. If they implemented this feature into the Story Instances in GW2, it could alleviate some of the issues people complain about. It would lower the HP pool of bosses, perhaps take a way a certain attack for a boss or any other combination of changes. Alter the Achievement process that you can only complete certain Achievements based on the level you play each story, and you can change said difficulty level before going into any story instance, whether it's your first or tenth attempt. This would motivate the "Get Better" approach as you start out easy and get to experience the story and then move into the challenge mode of completing it at the level Anet seems to want them to be now.

    C

  • @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I think it's safe to say that a lot of people think the fights drag on for too long (based on the comments here). That said, I agree with the people who say the fights should be challenging. You are fighting Gods and Elder dragons, they aren't just going to roll over the moment you appear. Make them too easy and you reduce the impact of the whole story.

    To be honest, I found the LS4 generic unnamed Wyvern to be tougher than the god of war himself. Is this what the story is supposed to be? Does Kralkatorrik have the power to send out god-like minions via mass production? If so, then only Scruffy V2.5 can help us...

    No skin should be exclusive to gem-store rng boxes.
    What really happened with mount skins

  • Endless Soul.5178Endless Soul.5178 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    No one said pve bosses should be easy that would defeat the purpose of even having bosses

    Completely missing the point.

    Asura characters: Zerina | Myndee | Bekka | Akee | Feyyt | Nuumy | Tylee | Rissa | Jaxxi | Sixx | Claara | Conii | Jymm | Synn | Zeena

    Your skin will wrinkle and your youth will fade but your soul is endless

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    We could always get a "skip fight button", like the skip cut-scene one? That way people could just mash skip through the story and get the rewards and be happy. I think they should even add an achievement for skipping the story in less than 5 seconds.

    Story fights never stray from being soloable. And do remember you can party through the story!

  • @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    We could always get a "skip fight button", like the skip cut-scene one? That way people could just mash skip through the story and get the rewards and be happy. I think they should even add an achievement for skipping the story in less than 5 seconds.

    Story fights never stray from being soloable. And do remember you can party through the story!

    I think it would be better to have to do the fight to get the rewards. Then there is motivation to at least try. And the people who skip over the fight would be able to come back and attempt it again any time for the rewards.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty much every LS boss as had people making claims that they’re too tough. Only the Caudecus has its challenges with the CC spam until they tweaked it.

    As for Scruffy 2.0, I don’t find it challenging at all. If someone intends to just stand in one place and facetabk it, sure it will be difficult. None of the attacks are over the top that an average player can avoid. The fight is more tedious (annoying) with having to get the power cores than anything.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Making story bosses hard is good. It is correct. What is wrong is making unbalanced, buggy, unintelligible or flawed fights in general.
    Hard means you have to commit and focus and think and get good. When this is not enough and you depend on luck, a perfect ping or a mere miracle, then there is a problem, and Anet needs to solve it ASAP. Sadly, people tend to mix both, precisely because Anet takes so long on fixing really stupid mistakes and bugs.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You have gotten a guildy to run with you? Have you switched up your build? There are some encounters where your build and the encounter will just not go together.

    There was merit in the LS2 method of challenge moots. Could see future ones where there are multiple levels of challenge moots with differing mechanics. Agains rick/reward would have to be considered here if that method was taken. Question is how much extra development would that require? I don't want anyone to not be able to complete content but I also don't want people to see story arcs as a cakewalk.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the story difficulty is fine as it is and I hope they dont change it to easier direction.

    Just yesterday someone in my guild was struggling with a HoT story instance (the jungle provides). They were playing a ranger and I gave them few specialization and skill suggestions - so no major build tweaking, just trying out different traits and skills. No gear changes. They tested it out and told me they were able to beat the story, and thanked me for the advice.

    I am friends with plenty of average/casual players who have been able to do all of the story on their own and they have not found it too hard or frustrating.

    Gameplay should be situational, even in story instances. What is the point of having a skill set and traits if you are unwilling and too stubborn to adjust them? I change my skill/trait set up constantly - for story, open world, raids, fractals, PVP, every content really. Even jumping puzzles. It makes the game more diverse and gives you tons of ways to explore the world. It will also improve your skill as a player and prepare you for team content, should you ever be interested in doing that. Regardless, story is not comparable to raids and raids do not certainly introduce any bullethell or lot of AOE telegraphs. I suggest you watch a video or two about raid mechanics before comparing them to story content.

    As for length... I havent had issues with that either but I can see people with unoptimized stats taking a little while with it. However the bosses shouldnt be killed as fast as in Personal Story.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.