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[Suggestion] Stop making Story Bosses Hard (LS4 Spoilers)

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  • nembool.5981nembool.5981 Member ✭✭

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @nembool.5981 said:
    Two points here:- Firstly, the mechanics are often poorly signposted, with illogical invulnerability phases and massive AOE effects. It's not easy to work out what you need to do when you're dodging/healing/kiting.
    Secondly, DPS isn't everything. If I want to play a build focused on boon-sharing, or healing allies, I should be able to and still have a decent chance of getting through an instance. The fact that I can't implies that the encounter isn't designed fairly. Perhaps that's the flaw in the underlying GW2 mechanics.

    The mechanics aren't that complicated. I'll admit there are some things that can be surprising at times, but when most fights don't even reset when you die, it's pretty easy to just say "guess I'd better pay attention to that next time" and off you go.

    And if you want to play a build that supports allies, of course you can do that and get through easily, as long as you go in with other players. If you use a build that supports allies when there are no allies to support, then that's a problem with your decision making, not the game mechanics.

    And even with that being said, you can STILL get through those instances easily even without allies. It'll just take you ages to kill anything.

    I happen to think you're wrong here. Signposting is poor, and invulnerability phases simply break immersion and the rules of the game system.

    And there should be no reason why I'm forced to play in a particular style to beat an instance. The instance should have multiple options, or paths to victory, that any playstyle is possible.

  • Myriada.7580Myriada.7580 Member ✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @nembool.5981 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @nembool.5981 said:
    Two points here:- Firstly, the mechanics are often poorly signposted, with illogical invulnerability phases and massive AOE effects. It's not easy to work out what you need to do when you're dodging/healing/kiting.
    Secondly, DPS isn't everything. If I want to play a build focused on boon-sharing, or healing allies, I should be able to and still have a decent chance of getting through an instance. The fact that I can't implies that the encounter isn't designed fairly. Perhaps that's the flaw in the underlying GW2 mechanics.

    The mechanics aren't that complicated. I'll admit there are some things that can be surprising at times, but when most fights don't even reset when you die, it's pretty easy to just say "guess I'd better pay attention to that next time" and off you go.

    And if you want to play a build that supports allies, of course you can do that and get through easily, as long as you go in with other players. If you use a build that supports allies when there are no allies to support, then that's a problem with your decision making, not the game mechanics.

    And even with that being said, you can STILL get through those instances easily even without allies. It'll just take you ages to kill anything.

    I happen to think you're wrong here. Signposting is poor, and invulnerability phases simply break immersion and the rules of the game system.

    And there should be no reason why I'm forced to play in a particular style to beat an instance. The instance should have multiple options, or paths to victory, that any playstyle is possible.

    But... there are already many possible builds you could make for every class: you can build condi or power builds using either especialization or core profession, you can build around meelee or ranged weapons, you can swap around utilities that you like the theme of more because the LW bosses are easy enough to have NO need for optimization. Even pure support builds can solo bosses at a slower pace if you heal/boon yourself enough. (Turai Ossa's gambit from the past Festival of the Four Winds being beaten by a chrono tank face tanking every mechanic comes to mind, even if it isn't strictly LW story)

    I'm sorry but it just seems like a lack of basic knowledge of the game.

    EDIT: this is the facetank kill I'm talking about:

  • crowy.1536crowy.1536 Member ✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @nembool.5981 said:
    I happen to think you're wrong here. Signposting is poor, and invulnerability phases simply break immersion and the rules of the game system.

    True, signposting isn't always that great and invulnerability phases are pretty annoying. There's definitly room for improvent with those things.

    @nembool.5981 said:
    And there should be no reason why I'm forced to play in a particular style to beat an instance. The instance should have multiple options, or paths to victory, that any playstyle is possible.

    I disagree. It's part of the game that you think about your build. You said you run a boon-share build, which really only makes sense when you play openworld with players around you, or when you play with a group. otherwise that build is pretty useless and has no point.

  • Cameron.6450Cameron.6450 Member ✭✭

    @nembool.5981 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @nembool.5981 said:
    Two points here:- Firstly, the mechanics are often poorly signposted, with illogical invulnerability phases and massive AOE effects. It's not easy to work out what you need to do when you're dodging/healing/kiting.
    Secondly, DPS isn't everything. If I want to play a build focused on boon-sharing, or healing allies, I should be able to and still have a decent chance of getting through an instance. The fact that I can't implies that the encounter isn't designed fairly. Perhaps that's the flaw in the underlying GW2 mechanics.

    The mechanics aren't that complicated. I'll admit there are some things that can be surprising at times, but when most fights don't even reset when you die, it's pretty easy to just say "guess I'd better pay attention to that next time" and off you go.

    And if you want to play a build that supports allies, of course you can do that and get through easily, as long as you go in with other players. If you use a build that supports allies when there are no allies to support, then that's a problem with your decision making, not the game mechanics.

    And even with that being said, you can STILL get through those instances easily even without allies. It'll just take you ages to kill anything.

    I happen to think you're wrong here. Signposting is poor, and invulnerability phases simply break immersion and the rules of the game system.

    And there should be no reason why I'm forced to play in a particular style to beat an instance. The instance should have multiple options, or paths to victory, that any playstyle is possible.

    Look, first point is difference of opinion, I'll grant that. I don't think that invuln phases are inherently immersion or rule breaking, but it depends. If I bring an enemy to 5% hp in a few seconds, then they suddenly become invuln to deliver a monologue before dying when i sneeze on them afterwards, that's a little irritating. But invuln phases where you need to use certain mechanics to break shields or kill mobs or w/e are part of what makes bosses different and interesting to fight. Plus the player character and npc's all have access to skills with invuln, not sure why it's immersion breaking for enemies in the game world to have similar abilities.

    And as I said in my first reply to you, you're not "forced" to play a particular style. I actually said it's just as easy to play a healer or support in a story instance. You are perfectly entitled to play the game however you like, so long as you don't impact on someone else's enjoyment by doing so. What you are NOT entitled to though, is to have the same efficiency as someone who brings the right tool for the job. In most instances, the ultimate goal is to bring an enemy's hp to 0. If I take this into consideration when heading into an instance and bring something with lots of damage, and you just run a healing build that doesn't do any damage, then obviously we're going to have different outcomes. You can still complete the instance, you'll just be slower than I am, but that's the decision you need to make. Likewise, if the instance requires lots of movement, a full dps spec might not complete it as quickly as someone playing thief with all mobility utilities. But I can still finish the instance, just like you can still finish everything on a healer if you want to. It's just slower.

  • Aru.4156Aru.4156 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exclamatory.8351 said:
    OP has a valid point and I can see some bosses being difficult, if not anger inducing to some players; personally I enjoy the difficulty. However, I do agree that the fights are sometimes too long. There have been numerous times where I'm just like, "omg just get this over with already." I found myself saying this while saving Taimi.

    Agreeing with OP and this comment here too. I haven't played most of these bosses with the other jobs but as a thief main with a quick to die build (which I should probably improve), the Taimi boss, and also the Golem story boss from Sandswept isles took me far too long. Not to forget the fact that I kept disconnecting several times from the game (due to bad wifi and slow laptop) right when I was abut 10% health left on these bosses. After spending 30+ mins on them can disconnecting, with endless deaths, it was tiring. With a group boss I understand the difficulty, but with a story boss where I'm most likely playing alone, these two bosses in particular could have less health. (Thank god Taimi's part was not timed, I can never finish anything timed)

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    Not really sure how I feel about this topic actually...
    I didn't find the fights too difficult in most cases, though I can see how they might be to others. Not sure if different difficulty options would be better or have it dynamically scale as you struggle, so it makes the boss easier when you come back.
    Though dynamic scaling would make some chieves easier...hm...
    I wouldn't mind difficulty settings I guess. Though that might be something they'd have to code in from scratch cause they only have CMs in the game iirc, no easy, normal, hard options anywhere.

  • I empathize with the OP. Some of the story bosses are immersion breaking because of the length or difficulty of the combat. The mechanic based story bosses tend to be more enjoyable (as long as the mechanics are clear), especially compared to the bullet-hell bosses where it is normal for the commander to repeatedly die (especially on rarely used alts). I stopped running all my characters through living story midway through season 3... it just wasn't worth it between the grueling bits and the decreased rewards.

    Having said all that... the my biggest issue are the story combat instances that fully reset and a character can't 'soldier through' but rather has to keep retrying from the beginning of the combat/instance. That is just BAD for story, and luckily those have been rare enough that I don't remember which they are. I can deal with repairing armor from the occasional story instance that was a bit too much for me BUT not the instances that I have to keep repeating just to make progress.

  • nembool.5981nembool.5981 Member ✭✭

    @crowy.1536 said:
    I disagree. It's part of the game that you think about your build. You said you run a boon-share build, which really only makes sense when you play openworld with players around you, or when you play with a group. otherwise that build is pretty useless and has no point.

    Nope, never said that. I *could run one on one of my many characters, and it's my choice to do so. If there are instances where you simply have no choice but to change the way you want to play, it's a poorly designed instance. Choice is everything.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Charon.7825 said:
    and I think the sick sobs that design these "stories" love to sit back and J.O. to the idea that the vast majority of players come out of them totally nude with completely broken EQ..

    I find it strange that this toxic comment is allowed to stand, but if someone politely suggests you play better, the poster is called an elitist, the comment is erased and they are given a warning.

    Most MMORPG players walk away from games/content like this, not because the game itself isn't fun, but because the content is not consistent with a person's play style - or the mechanics are so vastly different from other MMORPGs that it makes many people just lose interest.

    Please cite your source for these numbers. It must come from some reputable market research, right?

    They are fashioning their content around the whole 'group/guild' idea, when there's plenty of us who like to solo and just come on for a good time to grind and level

    There is not a single story instance in the game that is not soloable. Not Scruffy 2.0, not Confessor's End, not Hearts and Minds.

    RPG means the content should be more focused around an actual D&D or AD&D metric system.

    Why? Even in the PnP world there are far more interesting alternatives.

    Again, squishy characters - you know what I am talking about. Its all and fine when you are 1-80, and just roaming around and doing core content - but after that, it's like "ok, what now" - even with PoF and HoT content added; it begins to just become senseless once you have all the mounts, have all the glider skills, and find that the ascended equipment, and legendary equipment do not really bolster any significant increase to your core stats; over exotic.

    This is what the playerbase asked for.

    Scruffy 2.0 has no fail state. Regardless of your skill, gear and build you can walk out victorious even if the best you can do is facetanking to a battle of attrition. There's no way you can lose it other closing the game.
    You have your easy mode already.
    Can those of us who spent the time and effort to tune our builds, learn a good rotation and put on some decent gear also have something to sink our teeth into?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mauried.5608 said:
    I gave away all the living stories years ago, simply because they arnt fun.
    Just a mindless keyboard mashing exercise that goes on and on and eventually Ill probably win , but its just a fight of attrition where you slowly wear down some super monster after multiple retries from checkpoints and consuming multiple repair canisters.

    Perhaps it is not the challenge that poses the problem but your refusal to improve your gameplay technique (gear, tactics etc)?

  • I don't mind bosses being hard, but I remember Scruffy in S4E1 being particularly hair-pullingly maddening. All bosses are harder on a potato PC with low fps, but the ones whose main mechanic is shifting fractal-pattern AoE-spam like Scruffy can be nearly impossible at a low frame rate.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    please don't try find any common from STORY boss and raids top content where I don't go.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Mikali.9651Mikali.9651 Member ✭✭✭

    Imagine wanting to win just by showing up. That is what this thread is about. Maybe we should have autoplay feature enabled too?

    It is very easy to win every encounter, all you need to have is: alright damage, healing skill, stun break skill, CC skill of a kind to deal with defiance bar. That is all.
    Can't you optimize your build while doing story mode?

  • Aru.4156Aru.4156 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    @Mikali.9651 said:
    Imagine wanting to win just by showing up. That is what this thread is about. Maybe we should have autoplay feature enabled too?

    It is very easy to win every encounter, all you need to have is: alright damage, healing skill, stun break skill, CC skill of a kind to deal with defiance bar. That is all.
    Can't you optimize your build while doing story mode?

    It really isn't about wanting to win just by being there? With story I absolutely expect it to be challenging. But when a boss, not all of them mind you, we're talking about specifically 1 or 2 bosses here (with Scruffy from LWS4 E1 being our main example), are hair-tearingly tiring and taking well over 30 mins to do, it just doesn't fit the bill of "challenging story boss" anymore. A story boss is usually one that's, while tough, manageable alone and not cutting the flow of the storytelling. A 30 min boss that takes too long and is exhausting destroys the flow of storytelling by drawing our focus away from the plot and into the thought of "oh my god just please die already I don't ever want to do this again." Which honestly is sad for me as I thoroughly enjoy the story and would love to replay it numerous times through on each of my characters but this initial experience I have with such a boss makes me extremely reluctant to even touch the specific story instance again.

    And with the optimization, I understand the basic line everyone's going to be spouting here is "get good at building a character" but some, possibly even many, of us don't understand these minute things. Yes, there are templates out there that kind people leave behind but sometimes these templates conflict with our own playstyles/preferences. And in my case at least, I'm highly reluctant to leave behind a build that I"m both used to and fond of. It's a part of what makes my main character my favorite, I rarely change it. Even if this isn't the case, some of us are also newer players tackling the living world story for the first time and in my short time playing, I'd say that some professions are way less tank-like than others, which also shifts the favor of survivability onto our enemy/boss. So the line of "Get Good" just isn't going to cut it.

  • Zuldari.3940Zuldari.3940 Member ✭✭✭

    I pulled my hair out and smashed keyboards on some of those bosses. But i think that the point is , they are bosses. And bosses should never be killed easy story or not. And i say this as a new player that gets as frustrated as anyone , but mostly if you cant kill them the first round you whittle them down till you can. And if all else fails i ask my guild for help. I just think there needs to be a feeling of, hey maybe we cant be omnipotent and beat everything, when it comes to playing, that there should be bosses that give us pause. I like it now and look at it like a challenge and know that hey i go in there i may not come out in one piece, and thats fine, like i said grab a friend if you really want to beat it easy.

    Coo! Quaggan Love's You! ♥♥♥

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aru.4156 said:

    @Mikali.9651 said:
    Imagine wanting to win just by showing up. That is what this thread is about. Maybe we should have autoplay feature enabled too?

    It is very easy to win every encounter, all you need to have is: alright damage, healing skill, stun break skill, CC skill of a kind to deal with defiance bar. That is all.
    Can't you optimize your build while doing story mode?

    It really isn't about wanting to win just by being there? With story I absolutely expect it to be challenging. But when a boss, not all of them mind you, we're talking about specifically 1 or 2 bosses here (with Scruffy from LWS4 E1 being our main example), are hair-tearingly tiring and taking well over 30 mins to do, it just doesn't fit the bill of "challenging story boss" anymore. A story boss is usually one that's, while tough, manageable alone and not cutting the flow of the storytelling. A 30 min boss that takes too long and is exhausting destroys the flow of storytelling by drawing our focus away from the plot and into the thought of "oh my god just please die already I don't ever want to do this again." Which honestly is sad for me as I thoroughly enjoy the story and would love to replay it numerous times through on each of my characters but this initial experience I have with such a boss makes me extremely reluctant to even touch the specific story instance again.

    And with the optimization, I understand the basic line everyone's going to be spouting here is "get good at building a character" but some, possibly even many, of us don't understand these minute things. Yes, there are templates out there that kind people leave behind but sometimes these templates conflict with our own playstyles/preferences. And in my case at least, I'm highly reluctant to leave behind a build that I"m both used to and fond of. It's a part of what makes my main character my favorite, I rarely change it. Even if this isn't the case, some of us are also newer players tackling the living world story for the first time and in my short time playing, I'd say that some professions are way less tank-like than others, which also shifts the favor of survivability onto our enemy/boss. So the line of "Get Good" just isn't going to cut it.

    Then group up and do it with +1-4 others mate?

  • Aru.4156Aru.4156 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Then group up and do it with +1-4 others mate?

    Rather hard to do for a surprisingly unsocial person with an irregular schedule for playing dude. Even more so for a person who prefers to be alone, doesn't have guilds, and wants to explore story and experience it without another person. Yes, it's selfish, but I love the story and fully immerse myself into it. Having another player there wandering around as I listen, stare, and just think about the story would destroy my flow and make me highly uncomfortable.

  • Aru.4156Aru.4156 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zuldari.3940 said:

    @Aru.4156 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Then group up and do it with +1-4 others mate?

    Rather hard to do for a surprisingly unsocial person with an irregular schedule for playing dude. Even more so for a person who prefers to be alone, doesn't have guilds, and wants to explore story and experience it without another person. Yes, it's selfish, but I love the story and fully immerse myself into it. Having another player there wandering around as I listen, stare, and just think about the story would destroy my flow and make me highly uncomfortable.

    I think that is an outlier and mmorpgs were never designed with that outlier in mind. They are social games that work when people play together. I play pretty much solo, but even so i still manage to say hi and chat in guild some. You cant expect them to change gameplay design in a social game for a few people that dont like playing with others. The onus is on you. If you want to play alone in the game , then you need to optimize your character to whatever content you are trying to clear. People can and do solo these stories all the time, so its not impossible. You just have to change your gear and build and rotation if you want to be effective solo at it. Im stubborn too and didnt want to optimize so i called in a guild friend and knocked it out. those are the choices and in an mmorpg thats how it should be.

    Absolutely understood. I definitely see myself as an outlier for an MMORPG : P Not to forget the fact anyone I do play story with is free to play still and more time restricted than I.

    That aside, I absolutely get your point, just wanted to mention a few things from the viewpoint of an outlier (which really isn't helpful....) and a casual new player. I'll push through despite my complaints.

  • Zuldari.3940Zuldari.3940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    @Aru.4156 said:

    @Zuldari.3940 said:

    @Aru.4156 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Then group up and do it with +1-4 others mate?

    Rather hard to do for a surprisingly unsocial person with an irregular schedule for playing dude. Even more so for a person who prefers to be alone, doesn't have guilds, and wants to explore story and experience it without another person. Yes, it's selfish, but I love the story and fully immerse myself into it. Having another player there wandering around as I listen, stare, and just think about the story would destroy my flow and make me highly uncomfortable.

    I think that is an outlier and mmorpgs were never designed with that outlier in mind. They are social games that work when people play together. I play pretty much solo, but even so i still manage to say hi and chat in guild some. You cant expect them to change gameplay design in a social game for a few people that dont like playing with others. The onus is on you. If you want to play alone in the game , then you need to optimize your character to whatever content you are trying to clear. People can and do solo these stories all the time, so its not impossible. You just have to change your gear and build and rotation if you want to be effective solo at it. Im stubborn too and didnt want to optimize so i called in a guild friend and knocked it out. those are the choices and in an mmorpg thats how it should be.

    Absolutely understood. I definitely see myself as an outlier for an MMORPG : P Not to forget the fact anyone I do play story with is free to play still and more time restricted than I.

    That aside, I absolutely get your point, just wanted to mention a few things from the viewpoint of an outlier (which really isn't helpful....) and a casual new player. I'll push through despite my complaints.

    And thats fine, but maybe we can give some tips to help through some of these bosses outside of grouping to do them. Metabattle has good builds for doing this, and there are guides that will explain the fights. Also look to see what profession may be better at it, personally i found necro to be best and most forgiving in fights like scruffy for me. If you screw up chances are you can survive and regain. Dont get me wrong in the end i called for help after dying x amount of times, because that fight is a little crazy. But you can do it, you just have to start with the right set up for you. Some people chrono it and have an easier time for them personally. Some people play engi well enough to do it on that. Its about what works for the person. I find not locking my self into a main for everything works best in this game, unlike other games.

    Coo! Quaggan Love's You! ♥♥♥

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    I don’t recall any story bosses being difficult and especially since it’s impossible to fail them as their HP doesn’t reset.

    The scruffy one mentioned is not as bad as it’s being made out to be. The last few percentage gets hectic for sure but dodging those attacks only matters if going for the achievement.

  • Mikali.9651Mikali.9651 Member ✭✭✭

    I know I am defensive when it comes to this topic, honestly, sometimes even fired up when reading it, for the reason that Guild Wars 2 became a very easy game that can basically be played as a singleplayer game. I do not enjoy it, I strive for team and group play, even outside instanced content - in the Open World, something like how HoT was, maybe even a bit harder.

    It's all about Anet and their stance. Humans adapt, very fast. If 95% of the content is faceroll easy I can understand some of the comments here, because suddenly it becomes strange to lose so players cry for nerf of the difficulty of the content. I do not like that.

    If there was more difficult content, then people would have a well-balanced build - it's not about having the perfect build, min-max build, meta build - all you need is a bit more refined build.
    I would like if this game becomes more group-oriented. I miss the need to play with other players. I guess I never had a problem playing story missions with a full group of people in Guild Wars 1. It was just so much more fun, I had a feeling I really belonged to the community. Guild Wars 1 helped me become more social - I needed to adapt. I could have chosen to play with NPCs, but playing with people actually was kinda cool, cuz I experienced all kinds of emotions - success, happiness, friendliness, rage, toxicity, sadness, everything.
    I know lots of people are afraid of other people, afraid of them pointing their mistakes. But you gotta make yourself stronger. I am sure, that for every evil person out there who mocks you, you can find a friend that will make you laugh in this game.

    So, if you can't solo something - ask us. We will make you a better player, you will understand the game better. If you understand things, you can have even more fun creating your builds.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    my only problem with bosses is AoE spam, is designed if everyone play mesmer/thief or moviment/dodge bonus. Scruffy is cancerous, but still doable. they should pick the Mordremoth fight as parameter to history boss dificult.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most of the story bosses i find ok and to be a good balance, but there are some stand out bad ones.
    1. Hearts and minds updrafts are bugged out and is known to dc people.
    2. Caudacus fight was a terrible aoe spam, cramped camera, bad particle effect fight. Worst one imo.
    3. Taimi fight lists by the op was truly too long and too much aoe spam. It lost its fun.

    All said, I enjoyed all of the others, and considering how many other chapters there are, I'd say most of the time, Anet finds a good balance. There is definaywly room for improvement, though...especially the dc issue.

  • Friday.7864Friday.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    Yup, agree, story isn't fun for me.
    In fact, it's one of the few things that actually annoys me about the game.
    Just having to listen to the story to unlock the content I want to access is meh. Add the annoying bosses and it suddenly becomes a 100 times worse.
    I gave up on the final HoT chapter completely, way too annoying.

    And ye, ppl in guild regularly complain about repeatedly insta dying in story chapters.

  • nembool.5981nembool.5981 Member ✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @nembool.5981 said:
    And there should be no reason why I'm forced to play in a particular style to beat an instance. The instance should have multiple options, or paths to victory, that any playstyle is possible.

    I'm sorry but there is so much wrong with this statement.
    This is a game. A game should give you a challenge and you should should find a way to overcome it. This goes for all games; computer games, sports, board games...
    Yes it is good if you have different possibilities how to beat a game and GW2 story has that. Many of us beat the story with much different classes, builds and game styles.

    But any play style possible? No no no no no. To enable this all challenge should be removed. What you are asking is not a game anymore.

    Not quite why you're sorry? It isn't personal, I simply have a different opinion to you. I don't take offense at people who have different opinions.

    Your next statement about overcoming challenges is fair, in that we should be adapt to survive. However, the problem here, and in many of the GW2 instances, is that there is only one way forward and that way is programmed by the Arenanet team. If there were multiple options to beating a boss (perhaps in the case of Scruffy, Taimi could give you some access codes to input whilst NPCs tank) then we'd have options. As I said, options are everything. Arenanet could still lock the achievements behind actually combatting the boss, and everyone would get their choice of how to beat it, with appropriate reward.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    No one said pve bosses should be easy that would defeat the purpose of even having bosses

    It's a story instance. They are there for narrative reasons. they are not there so we can feel challenged - the content for that is somewhere else.

    Besides, those fights aren't even challenging. They just drag on for way too long.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Then the fight is kinda pointless for most would skip it

    If most people would skip it, then the fight is pointless, and you can safely nerf it. It's not like there are any rewards attached to it anyway.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Omernon.9762Omernon.9762 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2019

    @nembool.5981 said:
    Two points here:- Firstly, the mechanics are often poorly signposted, with illogical invulnerability phases and massive AOE effects. It's not easy to work out what you need to do when you're dodging/healing/kiting.
    Secondly, DPS isn't everything. If I want to play a build focused on boon-sharing, or healing allies, I should be able to and still have a decent chance of getting through an instance. The fact that I can't implies that the encounter isn't designed fairly. Perhaps that's the flaw in the underlying GW2 mechanics.

    Poorly signposted? I don’t know If we are playing the same game, but there are always visible buffs on the bar below portrait of your target. This regardless of any animations. It’s not WoW where addons are telling you when to jump, where to stand etc. You need to figure it out yourself and in a game that has no death penalty it ain’t bad at all. I remember story missions from GW1, those you could call hard at times.

    About that DPS thing. So sacrificing all your damage for healing shouldn’t come with any costs? Does that also implies that players that sacrifice all their defensive stats for damage should have the same chances at surviving incoming damage and thus have an easier time doing story bosses? I mean you can’t fail anyway, you can literally drown them with your naked corpses if you want. All choices come with advantages and disadvantages, that’s what they are. If all outcomes would be the same, it would be pointless to even have different gear stats. You however choose to bring a healing build to a fight and you expect to complete it on a pace similar to full DPS build.

    I don’t know why people insist on making games dumber for everyone? If anything, ANet could add easy and hard mode for story missions, with the second one giving some extra rewards or achievements.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How I understand the main idea of topic - living STORY is not RAID boss.
    Who want challenge go farm cm99 fractal wiht non skilled players, or go raid.
    Why people like me, who like ascalon dungeon and don't go raid should stuck on living STORY and 30 min dps boss?

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Tarlonniel.6534Tarlonniel.6534 Member ✭✭✭

    Having another player there wandering around as I listen, stare, and just think about the story would destroy my flow and make me highly uncomfortable.

    So much this. The only way I could finally beat "Hearts and Minds" was to bring someone else along, at the price of basically ruining the story sequence for me afterwards. :/

    Fortunately I've been able to beat every other story boss in the game solo. It may take a long time, and my armor may be in pieces on the floor, but they're dead.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    How I understand the main idea of topic - living STORY is not RAID boss.
    Who want challenge go farm cm99 fractal wiht non skilled players, or go raid.
    Why people like me, who like ascalon dungeon and don't go raid should stuck on living STORY and 30 min dps boss?

    While i was pleasently and positively surprised by this bosses difficulty level that alone might be enough to underline your point.
    The optimal solutions would be hardmodes for such content that you can toggle on your first playthrough for those wo actually like playing the games mechanics beside just enjoying the story. That would be best for both worlds.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • I'll weigh in as someone who has played this game on-and-off for years, but has struggled with many if not most story boss fights post-Tyria.

    In some cases, I was able to try the fight with a different class and succeed better. In many cases, I have to take advantage of the progress saves and die over and over until winning. For instance, my ranger kept failing the final Mordremoth fight, but I was able to complete it with my engineer (part of that was abandoning the updrafts and using the barrier dome). My mesmer was struggling with later PoF content, but my necromancer (minion master) got through it a bit better. I know some of that is build choices, but I'll touch on that in a bit.

    The struggle I have is mainly reaction time and controls. Because of the near-constant AoE barrages, I can't stand still for more than a half second to decide where to go or what to cast, because doing so risks losing half my health. I also can't take my hand off the main keys or mouse for long because I have to maintain constant movement. This makes casting lots of skills problematic, because taking time to look carefully at the keyboard and move either hand over to 6-9 or the F keys means my attention might miss something crucial. In that regard, I usually fare better with my mesmer because I'm not always the focus of aggro and that gives me more windows to consider and decide.

    To respond to those who say to just optimize your build, I would counter that it would be nice to be able to play a build that is comfortable and fun, and not have to contort to specific builds just to proceed through the story. I play games for fun, not to shoehorn into someone else's ideal build. I'd like to come up with cool build concepts, not ignoring synergies, but not feeling as wedged into some corners. I don't want to deny someone the pleasure of build optimizing, but it would be good to have broader choices, and be able to prosper in the story without going full-bore DPS and crit-crazy. I am okay with the idea of either increasing survivability or toning down story bosses a little, while keeping the challenge in fractals and raids and world bosses. That would let more people enjoy the story and accompanying things like mounts without watering down the whole game.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    No one said pve bosses should be easy that would defeat the purpose of even having bosses

    It's a story instance. They are there for narrative reasons. they are not there so we can feel challenged - the content for that is somewhere else.

    Besides, those fights aren't even challenging. They just drag on for way too long.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Then the fight is kinda pointless for most would skip it

    If most people would skip it, then the fight is pointless, and you can safely nerf it. It's not like there are any rewards attached to it anyway.

    The bosses are there for the purposes of both narrative and challenge. If not intended for challenge (to whatever extent) they would be cinematic cutscenes rather than playable.

    Some people do find them challenging, although I am inclined to think that is more a reflection of the player or character than of the content.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mauried.5608 said:
    Ive been playing this game since it started and Ive asked repeatedly on this forum can someone actually define in an objective way what challenging content is .
    Ive never got an answer.
    GW2 is a game , its not a school classroom where you MUST learn things.
    Games are designed to provide entertainment for EVERYONE, not just for players who are obsessed with challenging content.
    Easy content is still fun.

    Thats not true at all. Lots of people don't enjoy easy content. Would rather watch a movie with good story instead of playing a game that plays itself.
    Football is a game aswell, chess, puzzles... All games where you must learn things. Story bosses have most of the time only 1 gimmick you have to figure out.
    Are people here really spending 30min on taimis golem alone or the whole story dungeon? I can barely attack it before it goes invuln and i have to throw orbs again.
    Story dungeons don't scale with players in them so a party of 2-3 just steamrolls everything. I really don't understand whats the problem with them. Sometimes a build inspect feature would already give answers to why people are failing.

  • @tnarrant.9714 said:

    The struggle I have is mainly reaction time and controls. Because of the near-constant AoE barrages, I can't stand still for more than a half second to decide where to go or what to cast, because doing so risks losing half my health. I also can't take my hand off the main keys or mouse for long because I have to maintain constant movement. This makes casting lots of skills problematic, because taking time to look carefully at the keyboard and move either hand over to 6-9 or the F keys means my attention might miss something crucial. In that regard, I usually fare better with my mesmer because I'm not always the focus of aggro and that gives me more windows to consider and decide.

    This is an issue of poor keybinding. You need to reorganize your 6 - 0 keys to be either 1) all accessible to your left hand (for example using some combination of Q, E, R, T, Z, X, C, etc. ) that way you don't have to worry about clicking your skills. OR 2) Go buy an MMO style mouse that way you can either use all skills through your right hand or a combination of both left and right hands. I personally use option #2, and use 1-5 with my left hand and 6-0, plus some profession skills with the right hand. Makes things much much much easier.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zunki.3916 said:
    The optimal solutions would be hardmodes for such content that you can toggle on your first playthrough for those wo actually like playing the games mechanics beside just enjoying the story.

    O think this is fail idea to make additional different content for 3-5% players.. And generate question - why LS become toxic.
    This is Guild Wars 2 - fashion and roleplay domination.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    sometimes a build inspect feature would already give answers to why people are failing.

    95-97% players have dps from 0.2 till 3k, Don't kill any dhuums or etc, and don't have plan to do that. And they don't like elitism and 'meta'.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Zunki.3916 said:
    The optimal solutions would be hardmodes for such content that you can toggle on your first playthrough for those wo actually like playing the games mechanics beside just enjoying the story.

    O think this is fail idea to make additional different content for 3-5% players.. And generate question - why LS become toxic.
    This is Guild Wars 2 - fashion and roleplay domination.

    What?!
    Switching some numbers here and there is most likely less then 3-5% additional work than what they currently have, as all the art, asset, voice, writing and skill coding etc. is already done. Only a switch and some numbers tweaking would have to be adjusted. Even if only 3% would enjoy it, the time/usage ratio would most likely be okay the same as for the normal mode, given that mode is done anyways.

    And what's with this "toxic" all over here? Some just want at least some difficulty to overcome. Some just want a proper solution for everyone. They started it with LS2 but in a bad way. You had to clear and reclear the instances and that bothered many. Also the rewards weren't really great. They ditched it, instead of improving the system to make it enjoyable, which is a little sad to me.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Aru.4156 said:

    @Mikali.9651 said:
    Imagine wanting to win just by showing up. That is what this thread is about. Maybe we should have autoplay feature enabled too?

    It is very easy to win every encounter, all you need to have is: alright damage, healing skill, stun break skill, CC skill of a kind to deal with defiance bar. That is all.
    Can't you optimize your build while doing story mode?

    It really isn't about wanting to win just by being there? With story I absolutely expect it to be challenging. But when a boss, not all of them mind you, we're talking about specifically 1 or 2 bosses here (with Scruffy from LWS4 E1 being our main example), are hair-tearingly tiring and taking well over 30 mins to do, it just doesn't fit the bill of "challenging story boss" anymore. A story boss is usually one that's, while tough, manageable alone and not cutting the flow of the storytelling. A 30 min boss that takes too long and is exhausting destroys the flow of storytelling by drawing our focus away from the plot and into the thought of "oh my god just please die already I don't ever want to do this again." Which honestly is sad for me as I thoroughly enjoy the story and would love to replay it numerous times through on each of my characters but this initial experience I have with such a boss makes me extremely reluctant to even touch the specific story instance again.

    And with the optimization, I understand the basic line everyone's going to be spouting here is "get good at building a character" but some, possibly even many, of us don't understand these minute things. Yes, there are templates out there that kind people leave behind but sometimes these templates conflict with our own playstyles/preferences. And in my case at least, I'm highly reluctant to leave behind a build that I"m both used to and fond of. It's a part of what makes my main character my favorite, I rarely change it. Even if this isn't the case, some of us are also newer players tackling the living world story for the first time and in my short time playing, I'd say that some professions are way less tank-like than others, which also shifts the favor of survivability onto our enemy/boss. So the line of "Get Good" just isn't going to cut it.

    Then group up and do it with +1-4 others mate?

    it took me almost 2 days to find a group for the last mission i did in this game...awesome fun right there
    and when we were done, naturally they wanted me to help with a story too, so now i had to suffer through even more of the story
    not gonna happen

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @mauried.5608 said:
    Ive been playing this game since it started and Ive asked repeatedly on this forum can someone actually define in an objective way what challenging content is .
    Ive never got an answer.
    GW2 is a game , its not a school classroom where you MUST learn things.
    Games are designed to provide entertainment for EVERYONE, not just for players who are obsessed with challenging content.
    Easy content is still fun.

    Thats not true at all. Lots of people don't enjoy easy content. Would rather watch a movie with good story instead of playing a game that plays itself.
    Football is a game aswell, chess, puzzles... All games where you must learn things. Story bosses have most of the time only 1 gimmick you have to figure out.
    Are people here really spending 30min on taimis golem alone or the whole story dungeon? I can barely attack it before it goes invuln and i have to throw orbs again.
    Story dungeons don't scale with players in them so a party of 2-3 just steamrolls everything. I really don't understand whats the problem with them. Sometimes a build inspect feature would already give answers to why people are failing.

    do you know what candy crush is? do you know, how many are playing it? do you think, that blizzard kept on casualizing wow , without a solid reason?
    your "lots" is about 5 % of the playerbase

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    your "lots" is about 5 % of the playerbase

    Source?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    your "lots" is about 5 % of the playerbase

    Source?

    compare candy crush to dark souls...that should give you a clue