A Thought on a hard counter to Condition Damage

Ok so for the last several months there have been a lot of discussions about how strong Condi's are in WvW. I started to think how other games handled conditions, and old school AD&D came to mind. In AD&D you had something called Constitution that did a couple of things. First it gave a boost to your total health pool, secondly it gave you a bonus to resistance to conditions such as poison. Why not implement something similar based on our Vitality? The more you put into vitality the more resistance you get to condi damage.

Resistance is already a perfect counter to conditions. Its already far too strong, we definitely do not need to add even more things to make conditions weaker. We just need to reduce access to condition application and then severely reduce access to resistance.

IMO i like it, has a old DnD fan.

But it would make players QQ since they put more effort to kill other players... and gw2 was made to players that hate mmo's or rpg games, due being to much complicated.

It is interesting u talk about the constituition since that would rather beinteresting thing to use on scourge than barrier xD, and ANet should had give barrier to core guardian instead.

There is such thing like resistance that is already pretty strong however it is corruptable and biggest condi offender, scourge, farts corrupts and condis like no tomorrow.

Well resitance its a slacker solution to make power creep (on this case acheived by condi spam ) to not get changed.

Ill keep saying ANet needs to convers some conditions into hexe and necro skills be direct damage or hexes as well.... and make resistance like spellbreaker on monk worked..Gw1 conndi/hexes and boons/stances/shouts/glyps.. etc system... worked so well....

Conditions are lame way to play due how easy is to stack and overwhelm its counter in short time, everything ins condi stack or boon stack, its a design ANet tough it would be les time consuming for them or would be easy to balance, they shooted their own foot by wanting to go slacking design.

Gw1 devs came into gw2 with the notion that application cooldowns and removal cooldowns would balance out the condition pressure from capped conditions.

Gw1 all Condi and all hex degen has a shared cap at -10 total which is 20hp/sec. Player base health is 480hp. That's 24seconds.Gw2 Condi has no cap and a single stat can push that degen by a multiplied factor of 4-6. For burn that's 500ish tics. A mere 10 stacks will evaporate an average base hp of 15k in 3 seconds. Get something like necromancer that can put half a dozen conditions on you in a second and you can see why trying to remove with a cast time to purge 2 Condi is a joke.

Did the gw1 devs all leave the company in 2015 or something?

Several months? You mean several years.

Others games also had other ways to deal with conditions or dot as they would call it, usually a separate resist stat that you can get on gear much like toughness, which is why people have suggested using toughness to mitigate condition damage. I know the point of conditions is to get around that toughness mitigation, but that was before when conditions weren't built to be stacked as high and hit as hard as they do now.

But of course they would have opted for the Resistance boon instead since they were so boon happy at the beginning of HoT, and then made it group applicable instead of individual use like self heals, which again creates the same problems as cleanses did, too much of it in groups, not enough single access.

Not like any of this matters, they are not going to change the system, we're stuck with this crap for the rest of the game's life.

I think if we had vitality working the way BlazeQ said then resistance boon could operate like protection instead of the way it does now. I think that could go a LLLOOONNNGGG way to balancing condi damage.

@Justine.6351 said:Gw1 devs came into gw2 with the notion that application cooldowns and removal cooldowns would balance out the condition pressure from capped conditions.

Gw1 all Condi and all hex degen has a shared cap at -10 total which is 20hp/sec. Player base health is 480hp. That's 24seconds.Gw2 Condi has no cap and a single stat can push that degen by a multiplied factor of 4-6. For burn that's 500ish tics. A mere 10 stacks will evaporate an average base hp of 15k in 3 seconds. Get something like necromancer that can put half a dozen conditions on you in a second and you can see why trying to remove with a cast time to purge 2 Condi is a joke.

Did the gw1 devs all leave the company in 2015 or something?

The gamer designer left after the core game of GW2 was complete(Who they are is a long story ) , HoT was already another team because of this the whole philosophy of GW 2 changed.Raids , the new bar , the punishing maps, and to some degree the fractals because they replaced the dungeons. The core member of the legacy Gild from GW1 I joined hate it because it is so not Guild Wars also I was promised not to be very causal friendly were basically thrown out of the window with HoT.

PoF we all like so far if we talk about maps and the story. I think people also often forget how old the players became when you started with Gw1 when you were 15(2005) you are now 27 and we are all older then this

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Gw1 devs came into gw2 with the notion that application cooldowns and removal cooldowns would balance out the condition pressure from capped conditions.

Gw1 all Condi and all hex degen has a shared cap at -10 total which is 20hp/sec. Player base health is 480hp. That's 24seconds.Gw2 Condi has no cap and a single stat can push that degen by a multiplied factor of 4-6. For burn that's 500ish tics. A mere 10 stacks will evaporate an average base hp of 15k in 3 seconds. Get something like necromancer that can put half a dozen conditions on you in a second and you can see why trying to remove with a cast time to purge 2 Condi is a joke.

Did the gw1 devs all leave the company in 2015 or something?

While some people did leave, everytime in their AMAs this comes up and they have devs popping up to answer questions that have been with Anet since GW1. Why do you try to insist that no one on the team worked on GW1?

current problem with wvw are not the conditions, the problems are the players who play cheessy builds and you see 5 sourges roaming, with some condi dd 33333333 dodge dodge dodge daredevil.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Gw1 devs came into gw2 with the notion that application cooldowns and removal cooldowns would balance out the condition pressure from capped conditions.

Gw1 all Condi and all hex degen has a shared cap at -10 total which is 20hp/sec. Player base health is 480hp. That's 24seconds.Gw2 Condi has no cap and a single stat can push that degen by a multiplied factor of 4-6. For burn that's 500ish tics. A mere 10 stacks will evaporate an average base hp of 15k in 3 seconds. Get something like necromancer that can put half a dozen conditions on you in a second and you can see why trying to remove with a cast time to purge 2 Condi is a joke.

Did the gw1 devs all leave the company in 2015 or something?

I did not say team but most of the people are gone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArenaNet

@len.7809 said:current problem with wvw are not the conditions, the problems are the players who play cheessy builds and you see 5 sourges roaming, with some condi dd 33333333 dodge dodge dodge daredevil.

still dodges missing i think ... here they are .. dodge dodge dodge :)

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:I think if we had vitality working the way BlazeQ said then resistance boon could operate like protection instead of the way it does now. I think that could go a LLLOOONNNGGG way to balancing condi damage.

You could start with having Vitality/constitution giving you a base reduction, then have resistance increase the % of that reduction. Those numbers would be easier to adjust for balance. That just makes good sense to me. Keeps conditions viable, makes power just as strong, would potentially make some game modes more balanced.

@BlazeQ.1095 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:I think if we had vitality working the way BlazeQ said then resistance boon could operate like protection instead of the way it does now. I think that could go a LLLOOONNNGGG way to balancing condi damage.

Well that just makes good sense for to me to buff. TB/dire condi scourges are too weak against condis!

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@BlazeQ.1095 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:I think if we had vitality working the way BlazeQ said then resistance boon could operate like protection instead of the way it does now. I think that could go a LLLOOONNNGGG way to balancing condi damage.

It would boost all gear that has vitality vs condi. It could end up giving some stat combos an actual meaning. You'd see more people running marauders gear and suddenly condi dmg doing a fraction of what it was (relative to the dmg reduction toughness gives to physical dmg). You'd see allot less people running condi cheese in competitive game play.

Traditionally in vast majority of MMORPGs I have played pretty much since they came to existance since UO and EQ1, what is here as "power" based damage tended always to be the burst side of DPS, while DOTs which are here condistions tended to outperform power but on sustained DPS. There are many differences here with the traditional DOT / Direct DPS systems in this game. I am going to list some of these differences here, pretty sure there are more too, but these are just off the top of my head:

1. Condition Damage is tied to soft CC. If you reduce it too much, there will be a lack of soft CC in general in addition to it, thus completely negating a lot of tactical gameplay.
2. Condi damage here, depending on class / condi, is meant to provide either burst or sustained, for example 5 stacks of burns from a burn guard, vs 5 stacks of bleed from a bleed necro. This blurs the line between sustained and direct DPS. The burst condis by their nature are fast hitting, if reduced they will make ceirtain gameplay styles / tactics unusable.
3. In many, but not all, other games, alternating both DOT and direct damage is part of an overall optimal DPS rotation, for example using a debuff DOT which usually lasts a while and provides a big debuff to ceirtain type of damage, then using a direct damage ability to take advantage of that debuff. This is not very viable / possible here due to divide between power and condi damage stats. In those games all damage is applied through a single stat set, with secondary stats having some, but not main effect such as a bit extra duration, or a bit stronger debuffs.
4. Some games use specific DOT types and specific resist types for ceirtain classes / specs, this provides rock/paper/scissors balance which is missing here almost entirely on some classes. This leads those to be too vulnreable thus limiting overall average playability.

There is a plethora of other differences as well, too many to list.

I don't see why there shouldn't be some condi resistance here from vitality stat much like armor provides damage resistance against power damage. Vitality already by its nature gives a pretty big boost. Having 3-5 seconds to react on a 22-24k hp guard vs 12k hp guard is a gigantic difference. But there is room for the built in base resistance. It doesn't have to be as strong as the armor reduction, it can be for example 0% at 12k hp to 20% at 30k hp and everything inbetween. Granted that some classes have easier time of achieving that high hp, thus they would need a slight boost, preferrably via master trait addition so that a trade off can be maintained for those that choose to use it.

I wonder what "condies" he's referring to because condi Necro DOTs aren't that great.  I don't know why players complain about that exact class/build so much because it's not like you have to stand in marks....  Just move out of them and you're fine.  Condi Necros aren't mobile at all so when we're stuck in place by some "bull" ability of another class, we're a sitting duck.

Given all the "bullet proofing" classes can do (except Necro), conditions are the last thing a players should be complaining about.  Bad class balance and way too much "bullet proofing" is the real reason PvP/WvW is bad and "bullet proofing" is a major part of the reason.  "Bullet Proofing" is the reason a team of players can form a gyro/blob, moving as one, and become unstoppable.

A lot of cheating is going on in WvW too.  I'm starting to see all classes of players vanish like a thief and teleport 200 yards away from you to escape dying.  I know every class can't do what the thief does so how are they doing it if they aren't cheating?

I had a guardian (I think) beat with my condi Necro...  He was on the ground bleeding out as I was going for the finish.  Next thing you know, he vanished from the ground, re-appeared a few feet away from me, did a full heal up (bs ability) and then teleported another 100 yards away and then vanished again.

Yeah, I see that kind of garbage going on a lot in WvW and since I have played all classes in GW2, I now what each can do and can't do so it's not hard to notice something not normal....like a ranger that can still hit you 3000 yards away or somebody doing a grab and pull on you while you're not only behind a wall and out of sight but WAY behind the wall!  Hell, there's a glitch in the game which gets you stuck in a wall if somebody trys to pull you through it and they can kill you stuck in the wall because you can't get out.

As a developer, I would have given players the two dodges and one other special slot on their action tray that only accepted one ability like a stun, daze, fear, root, etc...  And that would have been it!!  You have to make players at some point go toe to toe and face up if you want good PvP.  Heals would have been at a minimum and their would not be any full heal up abilities.  Range players long range dps would just be smaller DOTs because they shouldn't be able to kill you in the distance, just give themselves an early start on dropping your health.  The real damage by range players would be on the closeup, toe to toe the way it should be....none of this 15+K damage from rapid fire like you're seeing now in WvW.  Hell, I'm even seeing rangers teleport like the thief now and no, it's not that arrow shot that hides them...it's is straight up teleport 300 yards away stuff.

GW2 "devs" just made World of Warcraft PvP all over again but even worst.  "WOW" never had so much "bullet proofing."

Why go with three teams in WvW?  It would have been better with just two teams because when two sides go for one side, it's two against one at that point and you have no chance.

You can tell when development is all about the money and not about your enjoyment.

Folks.... Lay off the Condi Necro.  It's the worst damage dealing class in the game and if you're dying to us condi Necros, you're doing something wrong because we're too easy to beat given our marks and other abilities are not only weak but they don't cover a wide area at all.  Hell, most players just run right through marks and kill the Necro.  I see them doing that all the time in WvW, ignoring the Necros DOTs because they suck and just kill us dead.  Hell, I've seen guardians not take any damage for like 10 seconds and I mean ZERO damage!  You can't have good PvP with all that "bullet proofing."

You all should be complaining about the Thief and Mesmer being "OP'ed."  Those two classes are untouchable Gods.  YOU WILL DIE EVERYTIME by a thief and mesmer unless you get help from a lot of players just to kill one.  I've seen one thief kill 30+ players solo in WvW because they appear to just vanish from all damage and I mean 30+ players creating AOE damage should hit an invisible thief, but this particular thief NEVER took damage and just killed them all one by "splukin" one!!!!!!!

Worst PvP mmorpg ever made!!!  You all can hate me for telling the truth but the truth sets you fee.

PS, "Devs" do something about thieves being able to hidout near a camp and cause a waypoint to become contested.  That's stupid because that one player isn't contesting anything!  They're just taking advantage of you're bad game design/logic!

Spot the necro player ^

2 hours ago, Horace.3184 said:

I wonder what "condies" he's referring to because condi Necro DOTs aren't that great.  I don't know why players complain about that exact class/build so much because it's not like you have to stand in marks....  Just move out of them and you're fine.  Condi Necros aren't mobile at all so when we're stuck in place by some "bull" ability of another class, we're a sitting duck.

 

Given all the "bullet proofing" classes can do (except Necro), conditions are the last thing a players should be complaining about.  Bad class balance and way too much "bullet proofing" is the real reason PvP/WvW is bad and "bullet proofing" is a major part of the reason.  "Bullet Proofing" is the reason a team of players can form a gyro/blob, moving as one, and become unstoppable.

 

A lot of cheating is going on in WvW too.  I'm starting to see all classes of players vanish like a thief and teleport 200 yards away from you to escape dying.  I know every class can't do what the thief does so how are they doing it if they aren't cheating?

 

I had a guardian (I think) beat with my condi Necro...  He was on the ground bleeding out as I was going for the finish.  Next thing you know, he vanished from the ground, re-appeared a few feet away from me, did a full heal up (bs ability) and then teleported another 100 yards away and then vanished again.

 

Yeah, I see that kind of garbage going on a lot in WvW and since I have played all classes in GW2, I now what each can do and can't do so it's not hard to notice something not normal....like a ranger that can still hit you 3000 yards away or somebody doing a grab and pull on you while you're not only behind a wall and out of sight but WAY behind the wall!  Hell, there's a glitch in the game which gets you stuck in a wall if somebody trys to pull you through it and they can kill you stuck in the wall because you can't get out.

 

As a developer, I would have given players the two dodges and one other special slot on their action tray that only accepted one ability like a stun, daze, fear, root, etc...  And that would have been it!!  You have to make players at some point go toe to toe and face up if you want good PvP.  Heals would have been at a minimum and their would not be any full heal up abilities.  Range players long range dps would just be smaller DOTs because they shouldn't be able to kill you in the distance, just give themselves an early start on dropping your health.  The real damage by range players would be on the closeup, toe to toe the way it should be....none of this 15+K damage from rapid fire like you're seeing now in WvW.  Hell, I'm even seeing rangers teleport like the thief now and no, it's not that arrow shot that hides them...it's is straight up teleport 300 yards away stuff.

 

GW2 "devs" just made World of Warcraft PvP all over again but even worst.  "WOW" never had so much "bullet proofing."

 

Why go with three teams in WvW?  It would have been better with just two teams because when two sides go for one side, it's two against one at that point and you have no chance.

 

You can tell when development is all about the money and not about your enjoyment.

 

Folks.... Lay off the Condi Necro.  It's the worst damage dealing class in the game and if you're dying to us condi Necros, you're doing something wrong because we're too easy to beat given our marks and other abilities are not only weak but they don't cover a wide area at all.  Hell, most players just run right through marks and kill the Necro.  I see them doing that all the time in WvW, ignoring the Necros DOTs because they suck and just kill us dead.  Hell, I've seen guardians not take any damage for like 10 seconds and I mean ZERO damage!  You can't have good PvP with all that "bullet proofing."

 

You all should be complaining about the Thief and Mesmer being "OP'ed."  Those two classes are untouchable Gods.  YOU WILL DIE EVERYTIME by a thief and mesmer unless you get help from a lot of players just to kill one.  I've seen one thief kill 30+ players solo in WvW because they appear to just vanish from all damage and I mean 30+ players creating AOE damage should hit an invisible thief, but this particular thief NEVER took damage and just killed them all one by "splukin" one!!!!!!!

 

Worst PvP mmorpg ever made!!!  You all can hate me for telling the truth but the truth sets you fee.

 

PS, "Devs" do something about thieves being able to hidout near a camp and cause a waypoint to become contested.  That's stupid because that one player isn't contesting anything!  They're just taking advantage of you're bad game design/logic!

 

 

 

 

 

Almost 4 years later... long after condi stacks was halved across the board to reduce spikes...

Really.

On 11/24/2021 at 11:12 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Almost 4 years later.

Well he is a Necromancer, isn’t he ?

Simply nerf every damaging condition just like cc skills or  add stats reducing incoming condi damage (wich imo is REALLY needed since everything runs on condi now...)

    Notice the movement of an enemy's, avoid certain weapon skills of the opponent's, which are related to inflict condition damage(for instance; poison, torment, bleeding, burning, confusion,fear), cleanse the condition damage if it is stacked  too much or it deals damage to you so severely that you can't afford to lose more vitality, counterattack the adversary with your outstanding combat combos, combined with the weapon skills and the utility skills  to make the aggressive one switch the offensive mode to the defensive stance  for a moment so that you can have some seconds to heal yourself(beware of being interrupted by the enemy's crowd control abilities when you are about to regenerate your health), keep your distance from the foe if the hostile one relies on close combat, try to bait the unfriendly one for wasting some breakstun capabilities, try to create a difficulty on the rival  with the ranged attacks by staying in melee range as long as you can  and drain the health of the contestant's till none of it remains.

A sure sign that All Hallows Eve is close, Necros cropping up. Need to get my Reaper out and ready for some PvE kitty tagging in the maze. Steve, I am coming for you bony boy, you had better be tuning up that chainsaw!

On 12/6/2017 at 10:30 AM, BlazeQ.1095 said:

Ok so for the last several months there have been a lot of discussions about how strong Condi's are in WvW. I started to think how other games handled conditions, and old school AD&D came to mind. In AD&D you had something called Constitution that did a couple of things. First it gave a boost to your total health pool, secondly it gave you a bonus to resistance to conditions such as poison. Why not implement something similar based on our Vitality? The more you put into vitality the more resistance you get to condi damage.

Why not just remove the condis altogether or make them how they were intended and as a secondary dmg instead of direct dmg. But that would create a balance in the game and we can't have that can we? No we just pile more k r @ p on top of already k r @ p balance from .......... that have no experience balancing games or even know what they are doing