The real problem with the raiding and fractal community. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

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  • Myhr.9108Myhr.9108 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem with the raiding and fractal community is an ideologic one. That's why it's so polarizing. Constructive feedback have been given on both sides. Like it or not, raids have an identity, they're challenging medium-sized group content with lore assets. Been like that in pretty much every MMO out there, with just the sliders in slightly different positions. The consequence is that this mode has its own set of distinctive features all blend together. And the problem is that : the blending. It's what makes raids so great, but also so frustrating when you're not willing to embrace them and are only interested in one of the features, and not to the point of putting up with the rest.

    Really, mostly, non-raiders want to have the choice, and imho, it's a little depressing that Arena-net wasn't daring enough to go past the old formula, when they did it so brilliantly with the Fractals. I'm also concerned that the Fractals are slowly reverting to some old-school dungeons, and I don't mean the old GW2 dungeons, no, I mean the dungeons in every over MMO out there.

    You might want to ridicule those that ask for alternatives all you want, tell them to 'suck it and git gud", while explaining in the same sentence that it's not that hard, so we must really really suck and be really really lazy to not achieve what you're doing. Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals). So yeah, we may be playing the same game...but we aren't, really, and that's a bit sad.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

    remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

    remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

    remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

    don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Myhr.9108 said:
    The problem with the raiding and fractal community is an ideologic one. That's why it's so polarizing. Constructive feedback have been given on both sides. Like it or not, raids have an identity, they're challenging medium-sized group content with lore assets. Been like that in pretty much every MMO out there, with just the sliders in slightly different positions. The consequence is that this mode has its own set of distinctive features all blend together. And the problem is that : the blending. It's what makes raids so great, but also so frustrating when you're not willing to embrace them and are only interested in one of the features, and not to the point of putting up with the rest.

    Really, mostly, non-raiders want to have the choice, and imho, it's a little depressing that Arena-net wasn't daring enough to go past the old formula, when they did it so brilliantly with the Fractals. I'm also concerned that the Fractals are slowly reverting to some old-school dungeons, and I don't mean the old GW2 dungeons, no, I mean the dungeons in every over MMO out there.

    You might want to ridicule those that ask for alternatives all you want, tell them to 'suck it and git gud", while explaining in the same sentence that it's not that hard, so we must really really suck and be really really lazy to not achieve what you're doing. Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals). So yeah, we may be playing the same game...but we aren't, really, and that's a bit sad.

    Really, most non-raiders have a choice. Namely, the rest of the game. You are right, it's an ideological problem, but one that still leaves me in dismay. Why people seem to expect everything in a game so big to fit their tastes? The blend of features means that you only care about 1-2 of them, you're very likely to find them in another place. Why so intent to get these particular ones, ruining the fun of everyone enjoying the content in the process? This mindset is the only problem. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any constructive debate possible. I don't fool myself I can persuade people to think differently. So I resort to just pointing out how and why they're wrong.

    You're also right that we aren't really playing the same game. In a sense, nobody is. Again, the game is big, and targets many different tastes with many different features. So you could say everyone is playing a slightly different subset of the game. Is this sad? Not really. It's just the natural result of individualism.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

    remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

    remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

    don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

    did i? no! :)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Myhr.9108 said:
    Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals).

    The complaints about the new fractals prove once and for all that multiple difficulty tiers don't help.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

    remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

    remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

    don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

    did i? no! :)

    But you joined and commented ignoring a context of my response :)

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel.5428 said:
    Let me explain you how things are going on. I am a raider since the beginning and I never had a static group, I was raiding only with LFG. I got my legendary armor with a lot of hard work, I spent hours learning rotations, farmed a lot for stats change, made new classes etc. And at the end, it was rewarding. I was better in raids, more classes = more possibilities etc. In my point of you, Wing 5 is not event hard. I mean I killed Desmina and did the 2 events during the first week, with LFG. Never killed some raid bosses so fast in the other Wings. It's barely a week since the wing was released and people are complaining instead of trying to do it. I've seen new raiders starting raiding. They asked me questions, I gave them answers and advices, they tried they rotations and I was very surprised when a fresh player from my training guild who had 3 LI did everything perfect during W4, first 3 bosses. Everything, from gear to damage, to positioning. Because he tried. And then I've seen people with 50 LI complaining about raids being bad when they don't even know their rotations, they just spamm random skills. So, for every new players who look at this, raids are not bad, the community is complaining too much. If you wanna raid, first make sure you have checked these 3 requirements: Build, boss strategy, rotation. Then, in time, you will develop your own playstile for a boss.

    To add something to this good post, everyone should realize that they CAN actually spam skills and only worry about build and mechanics as long as they don't play Tempest/Condi Mirage or builds with elaborate rotations. Just play Power DH (kitten, even hammer DH still does its job) or something that can dish out 30k+ with no effort then worry about doing mechanics correctly while you press 2 and 6 from time to time.

    Much of the problem with newbie raiders is that they benchmark themselves against qT or some other toxicelitist guild, when in reality they can get by and get the boss down much easier with less-than-optimal builds, because optimal = higher DPS for these folks.

    Everyone should also realize that the pros do struggle a lot with mechanics. One of the biggest offenders are the drafts in Gorseval where I played with 200+LI people that would die from falling lest we had no updrafts, and also VG greens that people were unable to move to and relied exclusively on the Chrono to distort them. Skipping as many mechanics as possible is the game here, NOT being skilled at playing them, to the point that your casual guild Sabetha group probably has seen more bombs than most speed clearers ever will. So don't fret about speed clearing, just take a build where you can deal damage personally (or, if you're supporting, tailor your own build to reach as much boon uptime as you personally can) and go for it, you'll surely get kills in no time (as long as you can find 10 people which is a real problem).

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:
    Let me explain you how things are going on. I am a raider since the beginning and I never had a static group, I was raiding only with LFG. I got my legendary armor with a lot of hard work, I spent hours learning rotations, farmed a lot for stats change, made new classes etc. And at the end, it was rewarding. I was better in raids, more classes = more possibilities etc. In my point of you, Wing 5 is not event hard. I mean I killed Desmina and did the 2 events during the first week, with LFG. Never killed some raid bosses so fast in the other Wings. It's barely a week since the wing was released and people are complaining instead of trying to do it. I've seen new raiders starting raiding. They asked me questions, I gave them answers and advices, they tried they rotations and I was very surprised when a fresh player from my training guild who had 3 LI did everything perfect during W4, first 3 bosses. Everything, from gear to damage, to positioning. Because he tried. And then I've seen people with 50 LI complaining about raids being bad when they don't even know their rotations, they just spamm random skills. So, for every new players who look at this, raids are not bad, the community is complaining too much. If you wanna raid, first make sure you have checked these 3 requirements: Build, boss strategy, rotation. Then, in time, you will develop your own playstile for a boss.

    To add something to this good post, everyone should realize that they CAN actually spam skills and only worry about build and mechanics as long as they don't play Tempest/Condi Mirage or builds with elaborate rotations. Just play Power DH (kitten, even hammer DH still does its job) or something that can dish out 30k+ with no effort then worry about doing mechanics correctly while you press 2 and 6 from time to time.

    Much of the problem with newbie raiders is that they benchmark themselves against qT or some other toxicelitist guild, when in reality they can get by and get the boss down much easier with less-than-optimal builds, because optimal = higher DPS for these folks.

    Everyone should also realize that the pros do struggle a lot with mechanics. One of the biggest offenders are the drafts in Gorseval where I played with 200+LI people that would die from falling lest we had no updrafts, and also VG greens that people were unable to move to and relied exclusively on the Chrono to distort them. Skipping as many mechanics as possible is the game here, NOT being skilled at playing them, to the point that your casual guild Sabetha group probably has seen more bombs than most speed clearers ever will. So don't fret about speed clearing, just take a build where you can deal damage personally (or, if you're supporting, tailor your own build to reach as much boon uptime as you personally can) and go for it, you'll surely get kills in no time (as long as you can find 10 people which is a real problem).

    Let me just weigh in here a little.

    Speed clear tactics aren't a bad thing, per se. They are actually safer, assuming your group can pull them off. It's probably the main reason why most experienced groups prefer to use them - it minimizes the chances for something to mess up.

    But when you're starting, by all means, take your time. Learn the mechanics and play them. Don't rush into skips, because without the familiarity which only comes from playing that fight dozens upon dozens of times, you'll really be trying to run before learning how to walk.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, if you check within the discussion session you will also find players which complain about

    • Personal story bosses too difficult
    • PoF HP too hard

    and so on.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

    Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

    The OP might not be diplomatic, but that doesn't mean the question isn't legitimate.

    But exactly the same might be said about the people OP's complaining about! Perhaps those threads aren't all diplomatic, well thought and constructive, but that doesn't mean the complains they bring aren't legitimate.

    Remember, OP is also just complaining without suggesting any constructive solution.

    (no, the "why they don't group together" suggestion is not constructive, which OP would already know if he bothered to actually read the threads he complains against)

    Though yes, OP does seem to show D-K effect in action, as he seems to assume that if only 10 of complaining people would got together, they'd be both able to raid easily, and probably like it. Like he did.

    This statement is entirely fallacious. For D-K effect to be applicable here i would need to have stated:

    A. Raids are easy
    B. Raids are easy to me
    C. They must be easy for everyone due to this fact

    I did nothing of the such and i would appreciate if you didn't claim I did, when i go to great lengths to avoid this fallacy on these forums. My statements were on the mentality of such players, and why they may or may not be able to find groups. In addition to how spending time here complaining about personal issues, is a fruitless endeavor.

    The constructive solution is to suck it up and raid with people of similar liking. And sense all these people have similar views, it's only logical that they would at minimum attempt to group up. But no such attempt has been made, because their complaints are not in line with what they actually want.

    They say they wanna stay away from 'elitism', but never bother to raid with people who think the same way as them. And it's ironic, because most of the people who make this complaint, are even more toxic than they claim others are. It's blatant projection and hypocrisy.

    The people who complain raids are 'too hard' probably don't understand the mechanics. As when one does understand them, they naturally become easier.

    I have a PS warrior in my static who plays on 2k ping, does near perfect dps, and rarely if ever dies. On top of having a potato PC that is at like 10 frames a second on low graphics. The difference between him and most? He understand the raid mechanics and his class/rotation on a deep level. It makes up for any mechanical or computer shortcoming.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    The people who complain raids are 'too hard' probably don't understand the mechanics. As when one does understand them, they naturally become easier.

    Imho is there that you are wrong Frost.
    The fact that players don't know the mechanics it's a consequence of a deeper and easier problem.

    Players here on gw2 are used not to think.
    If we look at the history of the previous years we can see this simple pattern.

    World bosses or Meta events with easy mechanics which were hard to complete because players weren't able to di simple little tasks. After a while, some nerfs and those events were possible to be achieved. But not because of the players which managed to understand and play better... just because of nerfs.

    Players which are unable to achieve raids mostly don't want to learn indeed, but because they were used since the beginning to play randomly. go afk during encounters, play with not efficient builds, go tanky builds because it was easier to take the hit than learn the mob pattern or make a good use of the dodge.
    Now that we do have raids they still refuse to accept that they must play and learn.

    The thing i am sorry about is that among every pug raid ( or 5 men fractal ) at least 1 or 2 players are let's say worth to be there.
    And they could have achieved the goal if it weren't for the other members ( fantasy builds, no skill, no mechanical knowledge, and so on ).

    Now, since many complains that the blame has to be put on pugs, the better solution should be to let all those players play together.
    Then, if they are all skilled as they claim, there wouldn't be any problem in order to complete a single raid.

    So, with the help of a dedicated thread maybe, the best solution should be to find somebody who wants to play a good pug raid and try to share it with others like him.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    Players which are unable to achieve raids mostly don't want to learn indeed, but because they were used since the beginning to play randomly. go afk during encounters, play with not efficient builds, go tanky builds because it was easier to take the hit than learn the mob pattern or make a good use of the dodge.

    This wasn't like the game on release and for one and a half year afterwards. The "let's go do content while watching Netflix on the second monitor" is the mentality created after Scarlet's death and until Heart of Thorns release. Things started falling apart with the first Queen's Jubilee, turning the game into an endless farm in huge blobs, but at least for a while they gave enough repeatable challenging content to satisfy all their players. With the Pavilion, Scarlet's Invasions and onward this game turned more and more into a huge mess with blobs hitting mobs for loot.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    Players which are unable to achieve raids mostly don't want to learn indeed, but because they were used since the beginning to play randomly. go afk during encounters, play with not efficient builds, go tanky builds because it was easier to take the hit than learn the mob pattern or make a good use of the dodge.

    This wasn't like the game on release and for one and a half year afterwards. The "let's go do content while watching Netflix on the second monitor" is the mentality created after Scarlet's death and until Heart of Thorns release. Things started falling apart with the first Queen's Jubilee, turning the game into an endless farm in huge blobs, but at least for a while they gave enough repeatable challenging content to satisfy all their players. With the Pavilion, Scarlet's Invasions and onward this game turned more and more into a huge mess with blobs hitting mobs for loot.

    During scarlet invasion most of the players were full magic find equipment and contributed to let the events fail.
    They were indeed harder than some events, but remember that due to the ridicouls damage given from mf equipment the events failed.

    The mentality was the same ( pof 3 was for few players because the others weren't able to do it, just to say one dungeon. and let's not talk about arah ).

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Myhr.9108 said:
    Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals).

    The complaints about the new fractals prove once and for all that multiple difficulty tiers don't help.

    I wouldn’t agree with that entirely. I do think fractals work when you’re new to them and learning to play them it’s just that with the constant revamps you see a jump in difficulty going from old T4 to revamped T4. Likewise most T4 versions of new fractals are much harder than older T4 fractals where unfortunately people jump in at T4 when they’re released because they’ve been doing T4s for over a year.

    People not choosing to ease themselves in is part of the problem as is the revamping.

  • Myhr.9108Myhr.9108 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 lots of incorrect assumptions in your answer, let me elaborate a little.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The one feature being legendary armor right?

    I'm sorry but I just don't buy into the bs argument that raid story is a huge factor. It's something people who have no idea how small the raid story is go on about. The effort to make this small amount (and I mean it is tiny) available to everyone in game (it's not like the story isn't described and explained in multiple posts and youtube videos) is just not worth it.

    As a matter of fact, wrong. Imho, GW2 has an innate problem with how freely you can switch your abilities and specializations, but their efficiency is tied to your gear. Stat-swapping on gear being tied to the legendary tier sounds to me like a big oversight from Arena-net, but hey, at this point, it is what it is. In fact, given how the raids are designed, it make sense that raiders get access to a gear that allows them to adapt and follow the balance changes that A-net makes. Do I want legendary armor? In a vaccum, yes, but since I don't raid and I don't do McM enough, I have no hope for ever getting it, and franlky, the same can be said for a lot of cosmetic and commodities in the game, it doesn't bother me.

    As for the story, here, in order for you to understand, I'll talk to you from gamer to gamer. If by story, I was only talking about the cinematic experience, aka the cutscenes, the visuals, and the dialogues, then you would be right. But, and I'm sure, as a fellow gamer, you're aware of that, video games offer more than that. That's why watching a play-through on youtube will never be the same as actually playing a game. Video games offer a whole new level of narration through mechanics, through experimenting what is happening through your character, and I'm not just talking about the staging, but about the whole game design.
    Now, there is a point to make that part of that game design would be lost if there was a mode with say, 9 bots and only one real player, but I'd rather loose one part of the experience than all of it. Truth be told, other games have done it, like LOTRO, where story instances were designed for groups of 6 people, then they added a feature that buffed you to be able to solo.

    So yeah "go watch a video on youtube"...it's a poor substitute that pales in comparison to what is possible. After all, you don't really need to play through the Living World story instance, you can just watch them on Youtube, right?

    You have a choice. In fact there is multiple choices into how to get into raiding and experienced raiders have repeatedly said over and over again, the most fun and best way is to join a training guild and make new social contacts. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

    You're talking of choice in how to approach a content when I'm talking choice of content. You're repeating that I can raid if I want to, and I repeat that I don't want to raid. Do not make any mistake, I think it's good for you to have raids, I mean, good for you. But I don't want to raid. Not anymore, I'm burned out. Kaput, finished. But keep raiding, all props to you!
    As for the proportion of each game mode in the game, it's something I can hear, truly, more hard encounters for the hardcore gamers, and it's true that there is a lot of more relaxed content, and if we're comparing the releases, the amount of relaxed content created is quite bigger than the amount of hardcore content. But, and it's quite important to note, a player can easily adjust to an easier content, but will have a hard time adjusting to harder content. Shocking I know, but what I mean is that while you benefit more from hard content and less from easy content, I benefit from easy content and don't benefit from hard content at all. So you're benefiting from more content than I am. As a matter of fact, I'd rather have several difficulties released for each game mode, with an easy mode and a hard mode for both Living story and raids. That way we would both have our cake and eat it (of course, better or even exclusive rewards for higher difficulties, it's kinda the case already with achievements, but could be developed).

    So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

    Ah yes, on that subject...no need to provide the links, I'm fully aware of the complaints, and I, surprise surprise, share them...but with a twist! Because, I am in fact playing T2 fractals, not T4. And the newer fractals are pushing everyone one tier lower, it's not something specific to T4. Interesting, right? It's as if the new fractals were inherently, mechanically harder than the rest, without considering the scaling. This is bothering me, because it's hardcore gaming effectively eating some casual gaming space. Does loot greed play a role in that? Mmmmh, I can't deny that, but I can't also help to wonder if the hard mechanical elements of those fractals could not have been kept for the CM mode, you know, the system specifically created for those that search some challenge? I mean, I wouldn't be against CM modes for every single fractal, providing more content for those that find the current T4 too easy.

    As I said, more content for those who want a challenge? Yeah, why not? Better for them, more power to them. But this is not why I play GW2.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

    You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Myhr.9108 said:
    Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals).

    The complaints about the new fractals prove once and for all that multiple difficulty tiers don't help.

    I wouldn’t agree with that entirely. I do think fractals work when you’re new to them and learning to play them it’s just that with the constant revamps you see a jump in difficulty going from old T4 to revamped T4. Likewise most T4 versions of new fractals are much harder than older T4 fractals where unfortunately people jump in at T4 when they’re released because they’ve been doing T4s for over a year.

    People not choosing to ease themselves in is part of the problem as is the revamping.

    If those asking for lowering difficulty tiers followed their own advice, they'd be playing the lower tiers of Fractals. But now we see people, some of them asking for difficulty tiers in other threads, complaining that they can't do T4, and instead of using the mechanics given by the game, lower tiers, they expect T4 to be lowered in complexity.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

    You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

    Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Faaris.8013 said:
    You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.

    Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change. You did.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:
    You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.

    Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change. You did.

    But you're not expecting to win a trophy on a beer and snacks party, are you?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:
    You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.

    Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change. You did.

    You know T4s used to be a lot different on release and then really different every couple of months. It's not like they changed only now specifically.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:
    You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.

    Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change. You did.

    But you're not expecting to win a trophy on a beer and snacks party, are you?

    No, but there are some uniquely flavoured snacks in the room those guys took over i'd really like to get to. Besides, they happen to be rather loud and that starts affecting other guests as well.

    But to stop with those alegories, in general if you change the rules on people midgame, you can't blame them for not adapting. Or for not being too thrilled with the change.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You know T4s used to be a lot different on release and then really different every couple of months. It's not like they changed only now specifically.

    All the previous changes were done mostly in the opposite direction - to make fractals more appealing and accessible to a wider group of people.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    All the previous changes were done mostly in the opposite direction - to make fractals more appealing and accessible to a wider group of people.

    I guess you weren't there when Fractured was released, the major fractals patch that gave us not only new fractals but instabilities too, which obviously made the content harder. Also, after 2 expansions full of power creep the challenge level of the original T4s wasn't good enough for the rewards anymore. Just like changes are made towards one direction, they can also happen towards the other one, if the intended challenge level drops below the expected one.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:
    You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.

    Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change. You did.

    But you're not expecting to win a trophy on a beer and snacks party, are you?

    No, but there are some uniquely flavoured snacks in the room those guys took over i'd really like to get to. Besides, they happen to be rather loud and that starts affecting other guests as well.

    But to stop with those alegories, in general if you change the rules on people midgame, you can't blame them for not adapting. Or for not being too thrilled with the change.

    Rules change mid game out of necessity. We get new specializations, new stat sets, heck, even a new down-state skill. These are just as much of a rule change as a redesign of a specific fractal or adding a new one. They both affect the effort to reward balance, just in opposite ways. I don't see you complaining about changing the rules in your favor. And yes, I don't expect people to be thrilled, although the amount of complaining is absurd and unfounded. But I do expect them to adapt. And they eventually will, if complaining along the way. Some will move to other content, some will lower the difficulty as suggested and some might even improve their skills.

  • @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

    You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

    Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

    No. What I AM saying is,

    "you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

    Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:
    You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.

    Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change. You did.

    This is a very dishonest argument.

    The proper analogy would be, a bar adding a VIP section, then the patrons of the bar getting upset at the VIPS for not wanting non-VIP in the VIP section, when they haven't paid, or been invited to be there. Or getting mad that the bar owners would DARE add a VIP section.

    Your argument tries to insinuate that raids and fractals were for a casual audience to begin with, which is an outright lie. They were NEW sections added or adapted in the game, not older ones 'taken over' by non-casuals.

    I don't understand how you ever came to that conclusion and didn't think it was a crappy argument.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

    You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

    Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

    No. What I AM saying is,

    "you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

    Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

    But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

    You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

    Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

    No. What I AM saying is,

    "you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

    Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

    But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

    Yes. Otherwise what reason is there to complain? Since they 'completed it anyway'.

    Remember these are the same people arguing about elitism when they say content can 'be completed anyway'.

    Seems awfully hypocritical.....unless, that's not what they want.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

    You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

    Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

    No. What I AM saying is,

    "you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

    Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

    But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

    Yes. Otherwise what reason is there to complain? Since they 'completed it anyway'.

    Remember these are the same people arguing about elitism when they say content can 'be completed anyway'.

    Seems awfully hypocritical.....unless, that's not what they want.

    Aw that's easy to explain. There's a lot of ways to BS your way into a raid, be non-participative and get the completion on the back of others. Then when you get caught, you get excluded, and complain about elitism.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

    For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

    Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

    Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you
    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

    'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

    You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

    Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

    No. What I AM saying is,

    "you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

    Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

    Uhhh, but now your making a thread yourself complaining about the complainers, and hence causing more of the problem. Which just adding more weight and noise to these arguments.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, still don't like raids.
    Who would have thought?

    Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

    At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

    Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, still don't like raids.
    Who would have thought?

    Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

    At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

    Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

    Raids also have quite a lot of voice acting, they really went all-in on that feature, and the amount of useless stuff they worked on is probably one of the reasons they claim to have no budget for difficulty tiers.

  • @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

    No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    That's not a problem with the raiding community. That's a problem with the hyper-casual players that don't know what a Raid is.

    There was one guy that approached me after i suggested that i do raids with a very noob group and we're still learning and welcome everyone to join us. So i invited him to guild and later we were discussing Raids, and i mentioned that there's a required DPS level for bosses. And he asked how can i tell DPS, and i told him about DPS meters and the Golem. Took him to the golem, we did a few runs at the golem, and we were talking about stuff like i usually run chrono and tank, when he asked if the boss would just stay in one place. He promptly said he didn't want to Raid any more, that it was too much like Magic the Gathering (as in very clinical and tactical), and left the guild.

    So yeah, a lot of people expect that a Raid boss is kind of like a mini World boss or something that you can just wave at it until it dies, but that ignorance doesn't refrain them from harping about "elitism" and what not, while ignoring that Raids are the hardest content in the game, that even the "elites" need hours and hours for their first clears. It's not just something you can wave a stick at.
    And even the worse T4 fractal is nothing compared to a Raid boss. (I mean i did the new fractal in roughly an hour, and that was after scouring every corner for those wounded things, and waiting for a mate to join, and then figuring out the boss mechanics. All the while with a not very meta group. But the fastest raid clears still took them several hours to figure out, with the groups that "create" the meta).

    So yeah, i see a lot of these complains, and what i see is people that want stuff handed to them.

    First this game was promoted as relativ causal game and gw 1 was kinda the same way only even more .
    Gild Wars was a counter design to WoW (Everything they to wrong we do right). This included more content be solo playable.

    What here is describe as "elitism" has its roots more in the game mechanic then most people thing. I know this because I have seen it in other MMOs too.
    What I mean with this are enrage timers which wipe the group when a certain DPS of the group has not been met.

    First it is a huge bottleneck for classes and built which can't be part of it. This doesn't mean it must be impossible to run with the raid for a certain class/built(not all) but because it increase the chance of survival they won't run with them.

    There is also a more nuanced situation with it for normal players it is survive fist damage second but because players need to make damage to survive its kinda flips over. I can't say this is a problem but it shows how such a mechanic generate a complete different kind of content.

    Then there is the need for a dps meter GW2 has something special here because some other games provide add-on interfaces but in GW 2 it is more like tolerated because it is a 3d party app(which stand has Arena NET currently?), only we have now the Golem as alternative the point is more people start to look at this way too much and it dripping down into other content like the fractals with the LFG which is very toxic.

    I personally won't join a LFG with XXk dps because of years of experience with this kind of players. It isn't so I don't know what they want but because I know it they don't want team players or being social but only rush through the content as fast as possible.

    This increased then with finding new ways to skip event by exploits to shorten it , is it a intro in fractal 40 or complete raid boss in the new wing.

    There are some funny side effects with which I personally witnessed basically some of them seems not to know the event from Subject-6 form the Thaumanova Reactor and the golem from Uncategorized because they burst it always away.

    So when I would design something like this I would really avoid enrage timer so far as possible and make events unskipable.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From what I understand the majority of people who don't like it are people who just don't like the entire ideology of a fixed meta and forced builds and subsequently the "harder difficulty" which is really just mostly stat/comp checks over-punishes more casual groups which is what this game was initially catered towards. At the end of the day, raids themselves are divisive. That's also why you don't really see people already in the raiding scene complaining about raiding difficulty; they make those accommodations to beat the raid because beating the raid is what they care more about, rather than playing how they want.

    If, for example, they got rid of the monetary gain from raids and made rewards more about prestige limited to within the raiding community akin to WvW (especially before the rewards updates), the population would probably be miniscule. It'd be that way because only a smaller portion of the population actually does it for the sole purpose of pure enjoyment. It's the same thing with what happened to dungeons and why those aren't really played.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Bish.8627Bish.8627 Member ✭✭✭

    I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

    Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, still don't like raids.
    Who would have thought?

    Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

    At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

    Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint.

    Except a major part of the complaints was about difficulty in fractals, which do have difficulty tiers. Regardless, people were unwilling to play on lower difficulty, choosing to complain about the difficulty on the highest setting instead. In my opinion, people who genuinely care about the stories are a very small minority. And it is probably easier for them to experience the content as is, by joining a more casual guild and asking to raid with them.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, still don't like raids.
    Who would have thought?

    Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

    At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

    Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

    On the same page with the requests for a Raid easy mode, we see lots of complaining about the new Fractals, a lot of them are the same people too. The SAME posters asking for an easier mode, refuse to run the lower tiers of Fractals. Making any argument for an easy mode very weak at the very least.

    This is a pretty weeak argument, because you're not arguing it. You're trying to discredit and argument by saying some people who use it ask for something else unreasonable. That doesn't address the issue I have at all.

    Fractals themselves have multiple settings and I can play them. So that's not an issue.

    Raids affect the main game story. They fill in the gap between Living Story and expansions, and yet Anet knows that only a small minority of the playerbase raids. Should I pay other players 250 gold to see story? Are you suggestion more casual players are interested in story or more raiders. How about number of players that raid or number of players that care about story.

    You can't negate an argument by saying that some of the people who are unreasonable also want it. That just sounds like you have no reasons for not wanting it. Story should not be tied to a niche activity because too many casual people play predominantly for story. And raiding is not a casual in game activity.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.

    Umm, W3 and especially Xera?

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