The real problem with the raiding and fractal community. - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

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Comments

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, still don't like raids.
    Who would have thought?

    Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

    At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

    Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

    On the same page with the requests for a Raid easy mode, we see lots of complaining about the new Fractals, a lot of them are the same people too. The SAME posters asking for an easier mode, refuse to run the lower tiers of Fractals. Making any argument for an easy mode very weak at the very least.

    I don't know how this works together ? I know that some people here say if you can't run it run it a tier level below.
    It obvious we did it and such comments are stupid as hell and logically don't getting an answer.

  • Alinora Targew.1679Alinora Targew.1679 Member ✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    I don't post on the forums that much, but after doing t4 fotm last night with friends i had to see what people are thinking.

    The real problem with the raiding and fractal is:

    Timers and forced builds. dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    For raids - if you want to do it you must have this gear, stand there and do that (or the Pro Raiders will kick you). There are no skills or challenges involved when you just need to do a scriped-bot's job. in raids you have no veriaty or options to do otherwise becuse of timers.

    For fotm - adding more AOE's and trash mobs doesn't make it harder just more annoing and time consuming.

    that's all.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:
    I don't post on the forums that much, but after doing t4 fotm last night with friends i had to see what people are thinking.

    The real problem with the raiding and fractal is:

    Timers and forced builds. dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    For raids - if you want to do it you must have this gear, stand there and do that (or the Pro Raiders will kick you). There are no skills or challenges involved when you just need to do a scriped-bot's job. in raids you have no veriaty or options to do otherwise becuse of timers.

    For fotm - adding more AOE's and trash mobs doesn't make it harder just more annoing and time consuming.

    that's all.

    Yeah, meta builds are a must...

    - 10 tempest VG kill
    - 10 Scourge VG kill
    - 10 reaper VG kill

    Not to mention the ton of off meta builds run by guilds who are less meta oppressive (also found on youtube). Or the ton of low man runs with 5-6 people finishing bosses.

    As far as fractals:

    - 100 CM skorvald solo
    - 99 CM solo 1st boss

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.

    Umm, W3 and especially Xera?

    No it did not...W3 is the definition of a side story. The point of the story was that Lazarus is alive (or so we thought). Shown in the very 1st LS episode. Knowing that is was Xera that tried to revive him changes nothing to the main story and has absolutely no meaning for it. At best it was a teaser for LS with that chamber showed at eh end after killing Xera. You can remove W3 story completely and nothing would have changed for the main story at all. What difference does it make for players that do not care about raids. They know from the story that the white mantle tried to revive Lazarus. Whether their leader at the time was Xera or Joe changes nothing for them.

    And even if it was extremely important, Arena Net took the care of having an NPC recap the Wing 1-3 Story beats for us with a cinematic cutscene and everything. There is a link between the first 3 wings (and arguably the 4th) and Living world, but nothing is there preventing you from joining a raid guild and tagging along, or PUGing, watching it on youtube, or get the info from the in-game sources that exist, or even just read the wiki. There's a dozen of ways to fill in that gap with or without raids. People complain because they don't want to work for the information.
    This is like if people would skip Dungeons (which a lot did) at launch, because they were harder and then complained that they didn't know why is Destiny's Edge all together now.
    Weirdly enough, there wasn't much brouhaha about it. But hating on Raids has been fashionable since their release, so that's why it took.

  • Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.

    Umm, W3 and especially Xera?

    Related != relevant. Turin explained the rest nicely.

    Praise delta!

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raids affect the main game story. They fill in the gap between Living Story and expansions, and yet Anet knows that only a small minority of the playerbase raids. Should I pay other players 250 gold to see story? Are you suggestion more casual players are interested in story or more raiders. How about number of players that raid or number of players that care about story.

    Can you understand the story of Season 3 without ever touching any Raid? Yes.
    Does the story of Season 3 make perfect sense without ever touching any Raid? Yes.
    Raids do not fill any gap between expansions, in the first Raid wings 1 and 2 were pretty much an attempt to save a Pact Squad gone missing.
    The Second Raid was standalone and nothing that happened there affected the story.
    The Third Raid is also standalone and doesn't progress the main story of the world.

    And that leaves us with wing 3 of the first Raid, and specifically the reveal of the chamber. Given how:
    1) No NPC acknowledges that anything happened in the Raid
    2) The commander doesn't seem to care to mention what happened in the Raid
    3) Almorra Soulkeeper doesn't seem to even know that one of her squads was missing
    4) Our characters being surprised when they see Lazarus... really a 5-year old would expect him to appear at any moment after seeing the chamber

    We can pretty much say that even that part of the "story" didn't affect the plot of the game the least bit. From the game's standpoint it's as if it never happened.
    Not to mention the rather huge plot hole, when was Balthazar put inside the stasis chamber again?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    Duo VG kill done in over 1 hour (timer on VG is 8 minutes so you can imagine it expired very early)

  • Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

  • Bish.8627Bish.8627 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Chris McSwag.4683 said:

    @Bish.8627 said:
    I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

    Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

    Yeah, I understand the 10 months of only open world and story releases as well as an expansion solely focused on open world means they focus too much on raids. Sound logic

    Locking legendaries behind the most unpopular game mode in the game is sound logic too.

    Not to mention WvW has a real lack of focus and it has a far far bigger player base, meaning more money comes in from WvW than Raids or fractals.

  • Chris McSwag.4683Chris McSwag.4683 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Bish.8627 said:

    @Chris McSwag.4683 said:

    @Bish.8627 said:
    I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

    Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

    Yeah, I understand the 10 months of only open world and story releases as well as an expansion solely focused on open world means they focus too much on raids. Sound logic

    Locking legendaries behind the most unpopular game mode in the game is sound logic too.

    Not to mention WvW has a real lack of focus and it has a far far bigger player base, meaning more money comes in from WvW than Raids or fractals.

    There are legendaries earnable in different game modes, thats just how it is.
    Weapons: Cant be made without open world, and a tiny bit of wvw
    Backpack: Fractals, PvP, WvW
    Armor: Raids, PvP, WvW
    Trinket: Open world only
    Ring: Raids?(not available yet and we dont know of future plans)

    Lots of people play more than one game mode, and even if they only played one: correlation does not mean causality. Even IF the wvw population is greater than fractals and raids(id be surprised if it is, lots do fractals), it doesnt mean that the players spend more time or money in the game. I could argue that the "hardcore" community is small, but so invested in the game that they are more willing to spend on it. I obviously can't back this up, but neither can you as this information is not available.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chris McSwag.4683 said:

    @Bish.8627 said:

    @Chris McSwag.4683 said:

    @Bish.8627 said:
    I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

    Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

    Yeah, I understand the 10 months of only open world and story releases as well as an expansion solely focused on open world means they focus too much on raids. Sound logic

    Locking legendaries behind the most unpopular game mode in the game is sound logic too.

    Not to mention WvW has a real lack of focus and it has a far far bigger player base, meaning more money comes in from WvW than Raids or fractals.

    There are legendaries earnable in different game modes, thats just how it is.
    Weapons: Cant be made without open world, and a tiny bit of wvw
    Backpack: Fractals, PvP, WvW
    Armor: Raids, PvP, WvW
    Trinket: Open world only
    Ring: Raids?(not available yet and we dont know of future plans)

    Lots of people play more than one game mode, and even if they only played one: correlation does not mean causality. Even IF the wvw population is greater than fractals and raids(id be surprised if it is, lots do fractals), it doesnt mean that the players spend more time or money in the game. I could argue that the "hardcore" community is small, but so invested in the game that they are more willing to spend on it. I obviously can't back this up, but neither can you as this information is not available.

    Let's face it. Originally legendary armor was a bait for people to try raiding. Now you can craft in via pvp and wvw and I assume soon we will see open world legendary armor. And skin is irrelevant, it's ugly, flawed (as proved by Brazil) and was promised to be updated almost half a year ago with no success :)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

  • My main issue with all of this is that I don't like being bossed around, I don't even like following a build off a site, except when its pvp and wvw, as I just want to use a charter and get going and play. For all PvE purposes, whether it be open world or A fractal, I build my own builds and usually know enough about a class (and if I don't, I read what everything does and make a well educated decision as to what to do with said class) to have it synergy well with no loose ends. I Loathe and detest when someone says its not the best build or what is on a site, and doesn't include me when I been playing both GW 1 and 2 for longer than most probably have on the whole of this site and community and should know by now how to do something. I rather be allowed to run what i want and do my best and if it doesn't work i go back to my skills and look at what can work instead. I'm my own person not a machine or cog, in the gander scheme of things, the raids in this case to be used for a means to an end.

    What a lot here tend to forget is we are people not things and we have all feeling needs wants, etc. and Mutual respect goes along way.
    What has to happen is for people to "put up and shut up" and take people willing to do raids but are not willing to be told what to do besides general orders, "Go here, Avoid that! Look out there!". Cut the kitten about being perfect and having the best builds, and as long as it is effective, and isn't entirely broken, you will get through if you respect one another and work together!

    I actually teach new players fractals on the lower tiers I never stress about gear or builds, I expect people to have half a brain and know a basic understanding of mechanics and the game like moving, using consumables and combo fields, dodging and the like. I don't yell at my party mates, I treat them like human beings not dogs. If you are 80 and going into this content you should have a basic grasp of the game by now.

    I know myself, that, my reaction times are not good, and I'm quite terrible at using a full keyboard to play (I may just move everything to the left side eventually for ease of use). I normally only use my mouse to move and click the skills one at a time. Yet I have such good understand of the game that I make up for this.

    In the end, all I'm saying is to stop being selfish and put others first before you especially in raids take the new players, they may surprise you. Don't impose such high ridiculous standards all the time, giving a little to others will go a long way and may even make you feel better.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    THE MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE TILL THE NEXT PATCH.

    But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

    When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.
    Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.
    I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

    You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

    so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Let's face it. Originally legendary armor was a bait for people to try raiding.

    That contradicts what we know: it was always intended to be a unique reward for those who mastered the hardest content in the game, proportionate to the challenge. ANet realized it was a mistake to also gate the swap-stat feature to niche content, so they made that available outside of raiding. The skins remain the unique reward.

    It's impossible for a reward to be good enough to feel rewarding without also tempting people outside their comfort zone, so of course, some who had zero interest in raiding were drawn to raids because of the armor. But that's not why ANet gated the skins to raiding.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    Raids were a mistake.

    The direction fractals are being taken is also a mistake. HAMSTRUNG? Really? For what purpose? To force you to always bring a healer or you'll have a bad time? The new fractals greatly encourage a healer role already enough.

    Remaking and adding new fractals that all take 15-30m isn't very fun. Fractals are meant to be a daily routine, when that routine is taking up to 2 hours it's really not ok.

    Constantly making harder and more difficult content in this MEGA casual mmo where the player base is INCREDIBLY casual and had no challenge for 3 years of this games life span so is used to extremely easy content, is a horrible direction to take this game. Raids are currently incredibly easy compared to any other MMO's raids and you already have people going completely insane over requirements and comps and LI and kill proof etc etc. Making raids ACTUALLY difficult is just going to make raiding done by even less of the player base and cause even more issues with people trying to get into them. Raids are already a gigantic waste of dev time, making them harder is going to make them the biggest waste of dev time since season1 living story.

  • when you have a set difficulty or when the content comes out and is played for months/years, then per say oh lets randomly change a fractal out of the blue aka motlen boss fractal for the worst you basically show hey we don't like you doing that content so we are making it longer. this isn't the case of being the first time of it happening.
    dungeons went thru it pretty hard.

    I've gone thru Cof path nerfing,dungeon nerfing(use to be per a character so you could potentially get bunch of tokens the more characters you had), then dungeons got nerf again with reduced gold etc, finally getting some minor buffs if you can manage to do 8 paths. oh and Changes/fix/extending some paths here and there thru the years AC path 2 use to be the easiest path to do and now its t eh more shied away path to be done etc. and this is all content i Loved to play thru these years and I as a player got kitten on every time kitten happen to them. I mean almost every type of player in gw2 gets kitten on by Anet. wvw gets left in the dust, pvp suffered from forced esports but again everything was suffering because forced esports.

    raids overall are fine they are only ever hard because someone in the raid group kitten everyone else up. while im only mid tier raider because raid groups require 250 LI and hundreds of kp of every boss before being accepted into pugs(overthe top but that how it seems like coming back into the game seriously). and haven't bother with w5 yet.

    GW2 is not known for its difficulty or skill if i wanted to work my kitten harder or other reason THERE are other games that I can play that and feed that difficult need.
    while i understand the grind part of gw2 that is pretty much accept while not smiled upon its there to keep players to coming back but after the removal of Fotm 40 farm As well as removing karma rewards then stacking a Grind long term plan for Fractals is basically TAKING A MASSIVE kitten ON players(AKA ME a pve grinder) AND SAYING TOUGH IT OUT FOR THE LONG TERM.

    and it doesn''t HELP THEY THROW everything on the gemstore more so then before.

    and at the end of the day We are all just human version of gold farming bots.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The sucky part of competitive play is more whiners, more bashers, more angry people then playing in pve. Out of all pve map questing, there are rarely complainers except, when losing in a meta. Noticing the competetive play, you get more high strung people, and rarely any people who are relaxed. So therefore more competetive spots will bring in more stress. The things people don't want to overcome, will make them always whine untill they can make it through. Most people sadly won't try to get through the game without worrying about how hard the game is. Most people just want to play and let the game be easy. The people who havent made it through and complain cant think of another way to win, so they blame the dev, and make them make the game easier. That is why so much negativity in the fractals, and raids, and pvp part of this forum site.

    People complain about the balance of the game. And making living world season 4 episode 1 easier. But I honestly dont have problems in balance... I just work my way around what sucks against my class. And shoot lvs4 ep 1 was freakin epic. That episode was far better then all the living world seasons. I did that with another person after I finished because it was amazing. As much as there are complainers, I have to really give arenanet credit. These guys never argue with what people post about them. Even with the most disrespectful things people say about them. As much as I love gw2 I noticed the people in the forums are like completely different people then actually playing the game. Its a completely different atmosphere.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:
    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    Just as you keep missing theirs.

    Make your own group with your own ruleset. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from playing whatever bonkers ideas and concepts you can come up with outside of you not being a leader and making your own groups.

    Also here's your tank guard at VG since you asked for it-

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raids affect the main game story. They fill in the gap between Living Story and expansions, and yet Anet knows that only a small minority of the playerbase raids. Should I pay other players 250 gold to see story? Are you suggestion more casual players are interested in story or more raiders. How about number of players that raid or number of players that care about story.

    Can you understand the story of Season 3 without ever touching any Raid? Yes.
    Does the story of Season 3 make perfect sense without ever touching any Raid? Yes.
    Raids do not fill any gap between expansions, in the first Raid wings 1 and 2 were pretty much an attempt to save a Pact Squad gone missing.
    The Second Raid was standalone and nothing that happened there affected the story.
    The Third Raid is also standalone and doesn't progress the main story of the world.

    And that leaves us with wing 3 of the first Raid, and specifically the reveal of the chamber. Given how:
    1) No NPC acknowledges that anything happened in the Raid
    2) The commander doesn't seem to care to mention what happened in the Raid
    3) Almorra Soulkeeper doesn't seem to even know that one of her squads was missing
    4) Our characters being surprised when they see Lazarus... really a 5-year old would expect him to appear at any moment after seeing the chamber

    We can pretty much say that even that part of the "story" didn't affect the plot of the game the least bit. From the game's standpoint it's as if it never happened.
    Not to mention the rather huge plot hole, when was Balthazar put inside the stasis chamber again?

    The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @blambidy.3216 said:
    The sucky part of competitive play is more whiners, more bashers, more angry people then playing in pve. Out of all pve map questing, there are rarely complainers except, when losing in a meta. Noticing the competetive play, you get more high strung people, and rarely any people who are relaxed. So therefore more competetive spots will bring in more stress. The things people don't want to overcome, will make them always whine untill they can make it through. Most people sadly won't try to get through the game without worrying about how hard the game is. Most people just want to play and let the game be easy. The people who havent made it through and complain cant think of another way to win, so they blame the dev, and make them make the game easier. That is why so much negativity in the fractals, and raids, and pvp part of this forum site.

    People complain about the balance of the game. And making living world season 4 episode 1 easier. But I honestly dont have problems in balance... I just work my way around what sucks against my class. And shoot lvs4 ep 1 was freakin epic. That episode was far better then all the living world seasons. I did that with another person after I finished because it was amazing. As much as there are complainers, I have to really give arenanet credit. These guys never argue with what people post about them. Even with the most disrespectful things people say about them. As much as I love gw2 I noticed the people in the forums are like completely different people then actually playing the game. Its a completely different atmosphere.

    This isnt exactly true. Do I need to bring up Brazil and the partner program incident because he dared make a video about the inconsistencies with outfits and legendary armor?

    Also the foums is different because the two types of players are rarely in the same space inside the actual game. You wouldn't believe how many passive aggressive people i get for even mentioning dps ever in open world, or telling someone to solo a veteran, or telling someone to solo a champion and showing them how.

    The forums add to it with the mods randomly censoring every post they feel is 'not too nice', which leads to people reposting and basically having to remove contest or form from their argument or risk getting banned.

  • i stopped giving a kitten about raids when i seen the legendary medium armor and mostly played fractals. i laugh at the amount of posts asking for you to use food im not wasting my food on fractals unless its a CM so i post my own party and its usually takes 30 minutes and im done. i stopped caring about the fractal 100 cm the requirements for hard content keep going up so its harder to a find a group plus the rewards are kitten ill a fractal 99 cm when i feel like it that ones fun to do.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    THE MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE TILL THE NEXT PATCH.

    But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

    When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.
    Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.
    I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

    You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

    so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

    So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

    It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

    Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

    Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

    Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

  • Evolute.6239Evolute.6239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    THE MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE TILL THE NEXT PATCH.

    But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

    When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.
    Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.
    I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

    You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

    so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

    So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

    It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

    Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

    Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

    Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    I mean, no, they're not, and we're free to laugh at them for that opinion and hope Arenanet doesn't cater to that kind of mindless entitled drivel.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Evolute.6239 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    THE MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE TILL THE NEXT PATCH.

    But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

    When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.
    Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.
    I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

    You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

    so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

    So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

    It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

    Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

    Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

    Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    I mean, no, they're not, and we're free to laugh at them for that opinion and hope Arenanet doesn't cater to that kind of mindless entitled drivel.

    It's not "entitlement", there's an audience for that. WoW does that well.

  • @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    THE MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE TILL THE NEXT PATCH.

    But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

    When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.
    Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.
    I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

    You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

    so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

    So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

    It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

    Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

    Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

    Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Actually thats exactly what it means, in the sense that, it's able to properly, or reasonably be fulfilled. Wishes that are nothing but wishful thinking or irrational, will never have as much weight as those that are.

    Which person do you cater to, the one asking for a small pitence, or the person asking for the world? One of these wishes is grandiose, and unfulfillable, therefore illegitimate as a grantable wish.

    Their 'wishes' are barely wishes. They are feelings that the poster doesn't know how to deal with. And instead of dealing with those feelings. They come here and place blame, and demand things from us who don't care. That Isn't a wish. That's deflection.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

    What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.
    You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.
    Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

    I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

    Everyone's wishes are not equally legitimate. Legitimate means they are conforming to rules or they can can be logically defended. When the developers clearly state that they want certain content to be xyz and this content has been xyz (or was ment to be xyz) for years, a persons wishes that go against this design are less legitimate than others.

    Every person has a right to their wishes, but not all wishes are equally realistic or legitimate. It's the same as a person asking for a story encounter to be on a raid scale difficulty. That wish would be just as illegitimate as what was discussed here so far.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    THE MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE TILL THE NEXT PATCH.

    But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

    When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.
    Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.
    I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

    You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

    so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

    It's actually you who are missing the point.

    Your position has an inherent problem. If you try to make all the content doable by any snowflake build someone might consider "fun", you'll end up with an incredibly boring game with zero replayability value. Why? Because the only way to achieve that is to make sure the content couldn't possibly beat you. This eliminates all challenge, and by extension, all fun. Now, before you jump on me, clearly different players seek different levels of challenge. I'm well aware of that. However, they still seek some level of challenge, regardless if they realize it or not. Playing on god mode is simply not fun, and that's a fact.

    Big games like this do the most reasonable thing - they offer different content with varying levels of difficulty. While this inevitably means some players will get excluded from some of the content, it is better than either alternative. Because zero difficulty will end up pleasing zero players and a fixed difficulty will end up pleasing considerably smaller number of them than a varying one.

    T4 fractals, fractal CMs and raids are the highest difficulty content in this game. It is only normal that you can't (or it is very hard to) do them with only sentinel guards. It's by design. It is what makes them worth playing for the players they're targeted at. And before you jump on me again saying these players are a minority - yes, they probably are, but the game nevertheless tries to offer them something. Because it already offers a lower difficulty content to entertain the players who like to play sentinel guard. It's not a choice of "X players or Y players where X > Y". It never was. It's only a choice of "X players or X+Y players".

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Alinora Targew.1679 said:

    Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

    Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

    The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

    All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.
    I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

    I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

    As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

    LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.
    no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

    and back to the my first post.

    Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

    Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

    Fact is, Most Efficient Tactic Available builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

    Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

    Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

    Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

    Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

    There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

    Edit: meta stands for metagame.

    and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

    How much more proof do you need besides people:

    • going in with non meta setups
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
    • clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
    • ignoring timers

    See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

    Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

    you keep missing the point...

    I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).
    Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

    THE MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE TILL THE NEXT PATCH.

    But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

    When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.
    Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.
    I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

    You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

    so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

    So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

    It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

    Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

    Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

    Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Actually thats exactly what it means, in the sense that, it's able to properly, or reasonably be fulfilled. Wishes that are nothing but wishful thinking or irrational, will never have as much weight as those that are.

    Which person do you cater to, the one asking for a small pitence, or the person asking for the world? One of these wishes is grandiose, and unfulfillable, therefore illegitimate as a grantable wish.

    Their 'wishes' are barely wishes. They are feelings that the poster doesn't know how to deal with. And instead of dealing with those feelings. They come here and place blame, and demand things from us who don't care. That Isn't a wish. That's deflection.

    It's simpler than that. There's no morality involved. Games are entertainment, and when a quite significant part of your audience says they'd have more fun if X happened, at some point, unless you have no place in conducting such a business, you're going to make it happen, unless it's some daunting task and a massive undertaking requiring changing engine or removing microtransations. In this case it's not, the art is there and it would only require a few weeks of design, testing and balancing, so if people keep asking, it will happen, because it worked in every other MMO. If they want it and it's doable, they're right to ask, honestly. There is no moral high ground involved in the process, it's just basic player satisfaction.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

    I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

    So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

    Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

    I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

    So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

    Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

    Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

    Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

    Mounts were in the game for a very long time (riding broom, carpet and so on)
    The developers specifically said when Path of Fire was released that Mounts were never "off table" they just wanted to implement them in a way that makes them unique and not just speed boosters. It's not a coincidence that mount abilities translate very well in Zephyrite Crystal abilities (and gliding)

    There is a reason they never replied to any of the Mount threads, either denying that they are coming, nor confirming that they are coming.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

    I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

    So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

    Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

    Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

    Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

    Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

    Mounts

    SAB

    just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

    That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

    I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

    So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

    Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

    Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

    Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

    Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

    Mounts

    SAB

    just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

    That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

    Wow. Just wow.

    Okay let's take this slow. You do realize the forum represents maybe 1-5% of the total player base? Even if we were to add reddit to that number.

    In this context I used forums as all social media anet uses to gather feedback: this place, reddit, facebook, twitter etc. :)

    Also, you have no data to prove how many active players uses forums, or even play the game :)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

    I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

    So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

    Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

    Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

    Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

    Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

    Mounts

    SAB

    just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

    That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

    Wow. Just wow.

    Okay let's take this slow. You do realize the forum represents maybe 1-5% of the total player base? Even if we were to add reddit to that number.

    In this context I used forums as all social media anet uses to gather feedback: this place, reddit, facebook, twitter etc. :)

    Also, you have no data to prove how many active players uses forums, or even play the game :)

    You are incorrect as to forum activity. There is industry models which will be close to realistic value wise.

    But let's keep it at this:

    You have no way of proving that forums were the reason for the changr of direction.

    I have no way of proving that metrics and data was responsible for change.

    Let the educated reader decide which makes more sense.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

    Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

    We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

    Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

    You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

    It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

    I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

    I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

    So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

    Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

    Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

    Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

    Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

    Mounts

    SAB

    just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

    That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

    Wow. Just wow.

    Okay let's take this slow. You do realize the forum represents maybe 1-5% of the total player base? Even if we were to add reddit to that number.

    In this context I used forums as all social media anet uses to gather feedback: this place, reddit, facebook, twitter etc. :)

    Also, you have no data to prove how many active players uses forums, or even play the game :)

    You are incorrect as to forum activity. There is industry models which will be close to realistic value wise.

    But let's keep it at this:

    You have no way of proving that forums were the reason for the changr of direction.

    I have no way of proving that metrics and data was responsible for change.

    Let the educated reader decide which makes more sense.

    It's very easy. There were no raids, tryhard minority was complaining they want challenging content, boom there are raids now :)

    It has nothing to do with metrics as metrics before were clear - 0% of players were playing raids :)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    It's very easy. There were no raids, tryhard minority was complaining they want challenging content, boom there are raids now :)
    It has nothing to do with metrics as metrics before were clear - 0% of players were playing raids :)

    Do you remember entire websites dedicated to dungeon/fractal speed clear records?
    The same with low-man/solo attempts at the same content?
    People reaching fractal level 99 before Heart of Thorns, you know when going above 50 was way harder than any of the new Fractals we got so far.

    It's all about metrics and the metrics shown that for many many years this hardcore community of speed clears and solo attempts was staying with this game even though they got no updates. They were releasing a new expansion and added content in said expansion for that super part of the community that stayed with the game even though they were neglected for years. While other try hard casuals quit on the first sign of something they can't reach.

    Remember how Raids exceeded expectations? Yes, the expectation was that tiny hardcore community would play Raids but instead they got way more interested in Raids, because this time it was properly designed content and not something that required the players to find artificial ways of making it challenging.

    Everything about the addition of Raids was in metrics and not on forum whining.

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