The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

THIS SO MUCH........ And hardly any of these threads are constructive in any way.... It's absolute nonsense.read these threads and the things they complain about. It's hardly constructive, and always close minded, one sided and completely disconnected from any of the actual problems in the game..

It's disheartening to come in here and see this crap all the time...these people making this wild complaints are doing more to hurt the raiding community then anyone else =/

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

All these people ARE like minded, that's why they're all content with making ridiculous complaints rather then playing the content...

Honestly,People are going to complain regardless, they want something and don't get it. Partaking in average online forums usually requires a high level of tolerance to manage all the strong emotions.It is interesting to see some of the same people spend years complaining rather than just fixing their personal issues.

Edit:First dungeons were too hardThen too easy due to "sploits"dungeons that are long or harder (ex TA aether)Complaints and threats, kill dungeons

Fractals too hard and unrewardingmade easier more (later more rewards)People complain it's too easymakes better and harder fractalsComplaints and threats, devs seeming indifferent

RaidsHave rewards worth the effort and solid difficultyConstant complaints & threats, tough love devs

If they took the energy they use to complain and applied it to something constructive, like taking a breath and learning they would be better off. /shrug

This happens every time there is a new fractal or raid released.

@meeflak.9714 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

Good point.

There's no guarantee that the dozen or so people posting in complaint threads are

• like-minded
• play at the same level
• play at the same time(s)
• have compatible play styles
• have compatible-enough personalities.

If people aren't having fun or if they are having trouble, it would be worth their time to change how they go about looking for groups or forming parties. But all the same, let's not pretend it's easy for everyone to do that.

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, still don't like raids.Who would have thought?

Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise,

still

don't like raids.Who would have thought?

At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

@LordOtto.2650 said:Would you shut up?! I cleared from week one w5 b1 b2 b3, I even carried ppl, I did cm boss 1! I won't carry anyone on DHuum, I won't PUG it! Ever! I won't promote floating kitten, that you can't even control, it's not fun, all the effort to kill Dhuum is behind that mechanic! It's sickening! Next time read something, before you post! Ok, you wise man?!

You can control the orb just fine. It's not even a hard mechanic... It's a linear orb grabbing mechanic, same as kc. It's honestly easy, the hardest part of it is getting to your green circle Everytime, with the soulsplit/ other mechanics. When your up there though, all you do is run into some orbs, couldn't be easier. Idk why you're complaining so heavily about this, but not xeras gliding phase, sabetha cannons, sloth mushrooms, or any other mechanic that has people who have to know a mechanic required to progress the fight

Many of us are actually out there playing the content, even if at a slower pace than those more comfortable with static groups. I don't see how it's a problem to complain when Anet themselves recognize the 10-people format makes it somewhat harder to find groups. Also, if you're from EU servers take into consideration that the EU pug raiding scene is much more active (to the point that US, at times, has literally NOTHING on LFG, not even guild recruits and sellings), and EU peak hours are the best for raiding. Kitten, who knows if these people are not complaining WHILE they are waiting for their pugs to fill (I certainly do while waiting for fractals when I play out of reset hour).

I also don't see how it's a problem that the forums contain more complaints than anything. People will always be more vocal when they are unsatisfied, for the ones happily raiding are busy inside the game like you put it yourself.

It should also be considered that GW2 has little to offer in the way of guild oriented content (no GvG, guild missions getting the dungeon treatment, guild halls prohibitively expensive for tight-knit communities), and so it does look like a break from tradition when raids are released that push for guilds to group up and practice rotations. When elite zones were released in GW1 it was established that 99% of the content (including the main story that was the bread and butter of that game) was better enjoyed and easier to accomplish by being inside a guild, whereas in here we can't even access personal bank and proper merchants from our halls. Complaint about the pug availability and quality are to be expected, even if they are unwarranted; after all, the Raid team is indeed Anet's A-Team.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Many of us are actually out there playing the content, even if at a slower pace than those more comfortable with static groups. I don't see how it's a problem to complain when Anet themselves recognize the 10-people format makes it somewhat harder to find groups. Also, if you're from EU servers take into consideration that the EU pug raiding scene is much more active (to the point that US, at times, has literally NOTHING on LFG, not even guild recruits and sellings), and EU peak hours are the best for raiding. Kitten, who knows if these people are not complaining WHILE they are waiting for their pugs to fill (I certainly do while waiting for fractals when I play out of reset hour).

I also don't see how it's a problem that the forums contain more complaints than anything. People will always be more vocal when they are unsatisfied, for the ones happily raiding are busy inside the game like you put it yourself.

It should also be considered that GW2 has little to offer in the way of guild oriented content (no GvG, guild missions getting the dungeon treatment, guild halls prohibitively expensive for tight-knit communities), and so it does look like a break from tradition when raids are released that push for guilds to group up and practice rotations. When elite zones were released in GW1 it was established that 99% of the content (including the main story that was the bread and butter of that game) was better enjoyed and easier to accomplish by being inside a guild, whereas in here we can't even access personal bank and proper merchants from our halls. Complaint about the pug availability and quality are to be expected, even if they are unwarranted; after all, the Raid team is indeed Anet's A-Team.

There's a big difference between the issues you bring up and the General complaints on the forums.. seriously. You bring up the lack of guild content that benefits from raiding, and the problems with lfg, these are real issues absolutely and constructive feedback on these issues is always welcome

But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

How many posts could you make from complaints about complainers?

@meeflak.9714 said:But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

I guess us who want our gameplay to involve skill do not deserve to have any hard content. Tier 4 fractals SHOULD be the hard 5 man content and still people are bitching.

What I find the funniest is that these people complain about t4 fractals and people telling them to do the lower tier ones but at the same time these people request easy modes for raids. Let's face it, if we get easy/normal/hard modes for raids then people are going to complain how they dont qualify for the hard mode and it has to be nerfed. If you want raids in different difficulties, then maybe adjust to the fractal difficulties first.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

But

what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

Pointing out an issue is what it is. Consider this a shitpost for all i care. As thats all i ever do anyway.

I thinks its more constructive to point a reoccuring issue out that no one is addressing that can actually be fixed, rather than a problem that is personal and is of no one's concern but the OP's. I care more about the people who come to this thread to learn, and see nothing but whiners, and have nothing but whiners telling them how horrible raiding/fractals are, because of some conceded notion they have to virtue signal how much 'better' they are socially than the rest of us. Despite the fact they post nothing but social issues that they are personally having.

It's like the people who cry about things like sexism, and mysoggyknees, but forget to mention the fact they see it in everything, much like the people who complain about elitism. It's paranoia and fear mongering in its simplest form.

8 threads, not even full squad :)

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@LordOtto.2650 said:Would you shut up?! I cleared from week one w5 b1 b2 b3, I even carried ppl, I did cm boss 1! I won't carry anyone on DHuum, I won't PUG it! Ever! I won't promote floating kitten, that you can't even control, it's not fun, all the effort to kill Dhuum is behind that mechanic! It's sickening! Next time read something, before you post! Ok, you wise man?!

No you didn't read it! You red the first 2-3 phrase max.! Now read all, then make an argument! But I just think your comprehension stays there were is now...

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

But

what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

The OP might not be diplomatic, but that doesn't mean the question isn't legitimate.

According to raid and fractal critics, there are tons and tons of people who think that there's a problem in difficulty. The OP asks: well, if there are so many, why aren't they grouping together, to avoid the so-called meta-toxic alliance? It's especially fair to ask since more than a few of these critics have stated plainly that they don't even try to form such groups.

Just as it's not obvious to the complainants how to succeed at raids, it's not obvious to the OP why some do not succeed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which [people] ...mistakenly [estimate] their ability ...[and] highly skilled individuals ...underestimate their relative competence and ...erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.

This can be translated as:

• People who know how to do something will have trouble understanding why others can't easily do the same thing.
• People who don't already know how to do that thing have trouble understanding why it's even important.

And people like me ask why is a floating orb, that you can't control, has to do something with gw2, and be the most important mechanic of a Raid boss?! We can argue how much we want, that is not skill, nothing related to gw2 skill, and never will be!How many of you did PUG Dhuum, please do tell?! And after 2-3 months please do tell again! I want to see the people who do green mech too, and how many PUG raid squads did they carry!

Stop bumbling on a topic, what you don't understand! I told you, read before you write something down, you just liketo argue, don't you?!

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

But

what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which [people] ...mistakenly [estimate] their ability ...[and] highly skilled individuals ...underestimate their relative competence and ...erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.

• People who know how to do something will have trouble understanding why others can't easily do the same thing.
• People who don't already know how to do that thing have trouble understanding why it's even important.

On the contrary, I believe the biggest problem of raiding is its organised nature and artificial push of 10-man grouping. The latter is biggest issue here as it's not only a problem of organising 10 "casuals" to find time together for few hours to progress raiding but also it brought a lot of problems from technical point of view.

First thing - grouping. OP is accusing casuals of not willing to find a team. I can only speak for myself here but many will share this view - we are not teenagers anymore. It is sometimes hard to find 2 hours in a busy week to meet with our lifetime friends and you expect us to find time for 8 more people as busy as we are? It's not impossible, but it's also not as trivial as for teenagers whose only problems in life are attracting people at school and farming in GW2.

About 10 man raiding - the game is balanced and coded for 5 man groups since the beginning of time. Raiding caused a mess in case of balancing. They wanted to avoid creating 1 supercomp but this is what GW2 is in a nutshell. There will always be supergroup and there will always be professions excluded from the raid.

If raids were 5-man content, everything would be easier from both technical and social perspective.

Now about OP. Your thread doesn't follow the rules of providing good feedback and hopefully will disappear soon. For every thread you mock up here there are always 5-7 raid heroes defending everything about raiding without any constructive reason or discussion. This section of forums is always following same scenario:

1. a problem is presented
2. "git gud"
3. Paste qt build site
4. Go play open world

Raiding community is hurting itself. You are not inviting, you are not constructive. Most of you are hidden within your raiding guild circles patting each other backs every day. Discussing anything with you is impossible.

One thing about raiding needs to be reminded to Anet - raiders in this game will never be happy. You created an atmosphere for them to exist here even though your game is not a place for them. You will be burning out your resources, passion and good will but a week or a month after raid release all you will hear from them is "raids are easy, git gud, when new win?".

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Raiding community is hurting itself. You are not inviting, you are not constructive. Most of you are hidden within your raiding guild circles patting each other backs every day.

The raiding community is diverse. There are lots of helpful, constructive, and open raiders. The jerks are always going to be easily noticed. Please don't lump everyone into the same mold.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:> Raiding community is hurting itself. You are not inviting, you are not constructive. Most of you are hidden within your raiding guild circles patting each other backs every day. Discussing anything with you is impossible.

You're not looking for a discussion. You're looking for other people who pat your own back.

Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT you-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.