PvP Discussion: Game Modes

First of all thank you for doing this discussion as I can speak for most of the players here that this was clearly needed to voice our concerns and frustration with pvp in its current state.

The main issue currently IMO is the decreasing PVP population due to the recent ranked queue changes. Probably the easiest and least difficult solution to this will be using the old ranked queue system during vanilla GW2 which was ranked team queue: 1-5 players & Solo and/or duo ranked queue.i think this will cover most of the pvp players concerns with not wanting to play into a premade when soloing, and also not been able to playing with friends in a competitive environment as the ranked queue is currently solo/duo ONLY ( this is probably the main reason of the recent pvp population decrease).

As for other issues that are secondary to the main issue I mentioned above is extra game modes. I think I can speak for for a lot of the players here that a competitive/ranked NON-conquest game mode is needed with brackets of 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5. I think adding these game modes will attract more players who are interested in a more direct competitive pvp setting OTHER THAN conquest/capture-the-flag game mode (this is a very common sentiment and theme throughoutt the pvp forum).

And of course another major issues at the moment is Class balance which I do not think I need to talk into detail; as there is an abundance of issues and players concerns in various posts and topics about class balance problems in the PVP forum.

Bring Heroes Ascent and the Hall of Heroes back. That's the game mode I'd most like to see. It was already a tournament style game mode and I feel it could be made to fit well with the current Tournament setup.

If it is not possible has it ever been considered in the past at least? That was a really fun game mode and I'm sad it didn't make the trip to GW2.

15v15 elimination would be a massive step forward to what GvG currently is. Accompanied with a large open map, this would be a really great change with the ability to spectate, etc.

I would love to see in a tourney style setup the modes of Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry from GW1. I know I sinked countless hours into those modes and I honestly didn't care about winning or losing because I thought the modes were so much fun. The design is already there too which means you don't have to think up a new mode, just copy that design and tweak it for the current game to handle. I know stronghold was supposed to address this but I honestly didn't feel like it did all that good of a job, It ended up not being all that much fun for me to play.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We still have no current plans to support additional game modes with a queue. The long and short of it is that we feel that splitting the population right now is really risky and could have a major negative impact on the game.

That being said, as mentioned in the Tournaments thread, we do plan to support additional game modes, to some degree, with event tournaments. The frequency of these tournaments will be determined, in part, by how popular these tournaments become. Our first special tournament will likely be a 2v2 tournament. I also foresee the possibility of Stronghold and even Courtyard tournaments.

In addition, we’re currently discussing the feasibility of adding custom arena support/special tournament support for large team (15 v 15?) elimination style matches. This does get a bit more complicated as the current UI breaks with anything more than 10 v 10.

What other game modes would you like to see show up in tournaments? Keep in mind that any game modes requiring new maps would involve quite a long development time.

Im gona be a bit blunt here but what risk if there in adding more game modes? giving players a choice to play competitive or unranked 2v2, 3v3 outside of just conquest mode would only INCREASE player participation because you are giving them more options rather than just one game mode which right now is only conquest, and this is in addition to the current ranked queue restrictions (which has been detrimental to pvp particpation and population)

dont get me wrong, Im very pleased that you guys are adding more tournament formats such as a 2v2 options, BUT as with the tournament format, such as the 2v2 u have mentioned, will not be easily accessible. but IMO a 2v2 or 3v3 game mode that people can queue more casually thru the unranked or ranked (maybe u guys already have plans for this).

So therefore the PVP queue will have a 2v2 and/or 3v3 unranked and ranked (with 2 queues: solo/duo & team queue 1-5 players) and the conquest mode we have now with the same queue options.

Thank you for your time.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@Placentlad.9742 said:

The main issue currently IMO is the decreasing PVP population due to the recent ranked queue changes

. Probably the easiest and least difficult solution to this will be using the old ranked queue system during vanilla GW2 which was ranked team queue: 1-5 players & Solo and/or duo ranked queue.i think this will cover most of the pvp players concerns with not wanting to play into a premade when soloing, and also not been able to playing with friends in a competitive environment as the ranked queue is currently solo/duo ONLY (

this is probably the main reason of the recent pvp population decrease

).

is this 92% of all queues or ranked only?

better late than never i guess. if you plan to support 15v15s please make sure there is a map where there is a large open area like Obsidian Sanctum. if anet wanted to make it easy just copy OS arena and remove the stands

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:In addition, we’re currently discussing the feasibility of adding custom arena support/special tournament support for large team (15 v 15?) elimination style matches. This does get a bit more complicated as the current UI breaks with anything more than 10 v 10.

I believe having an official area for a 15v15 mode would go a long way towards guilds who wish to do player versus player as a larger group. Any plans on what kind of arena or map will be used?

I think the common consensus within the current 15v15 community is generally:

• An Arena the size of Obsidian Sanctum
• Stands for spectators and reservists

Probably a few more, like the ability to become invisible/invulnerable, for casting streams, but those are pretty much the core necessities. Having the option of more amulets and runes than are available in normal sPvP would be good too.

@Placentlad.9742 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

We still have no current plans to support additional game modes with a queue. The long and short of it is that we feel that splitting the population right now is really risky and could have a major negative impact on the game.

That being said, as mentioned in the Tournaments thread, we do plan to support additional game modes, to some degree, with event tournaments. The frequency of these tournaments will be determined, in part, by how popular these tournaments become. Our first special tournament will likely be a 2v2 tournament. I also foresee the possibility of Stronghold and even Courtyard tournaments.

In addition, we’re currently discussing the feasibility of adding custom arena support/special tournament support for large team (15 v 15?) elimination style matches. This does get a bit more complicated as the current UI breaks with anything more than 10 v 10.

What other game modes would you like to see show up in tournaments? Keep in mind that any game modes requiring new maps would involve quite a long development time.

Disagree here. On countless games, having too many game modes makes the game worse. Reducing the population count for any one game mode isn't good if the population is already relatively low. I personally want a 2v2 and 3v3 mode that isn't tournament based, but who knows if its viable, given the current population.

@MadBomber.3719 said:better late than never i guess. if you plan to support 15v15s please make sure there is a map where there is a large open area like Obsidian Sanctum. if anet wanted to make it easy just copy OS arena and remove the stands

Alternatively just use Eternal Coliseum and remove all the assets in the middle.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@Placentlad.9742 said:

The main issue currently IMO is the decreasing PVP population due to the recent ranked queue changes

. Probably the easiest and least difficult solution to this will be using the old ranked queue system during vanilla GW2 which was ranked team queue: 1-5 players & Solo and/or duo ranked queue.i think this will cover most of the pvp players concerns with not wanting to play into a premade when soloing, and also not been able to playing with friends in a competitive environment as the ranked queue is currently solo/duo ONLY (

this is probably the main reason of the recent pvp population decrease

).

Im not gonna refute ur data as i dont have any stats :p. But with the current queue options, there has been many popular threads voicing the concern that with these restrictions and its putting alot of people off as you're only able to play in competitive/ranked game with ONE friend and one friend only.

I will link to this highly viewed thread which im sure you p;orbably have read already: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/13565/opinion-on-ranked-restrictions/p1

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We still have no current plans to support additional game modes with a queue. The long and short of it is that we feel that splitting the population right now is really risky and could have a major negative impact on the game.

Quaggan understands, GW1 had issues with too many game modes.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:That being said, as mentioned in the Tournaments thread, we do plan to support additional game modes, to some degree, with event tournaments. The frequency of these tournaments will be determined, in part, by how popular these tournaments become. Our first special tournament will likely be a 2v2 tournament. I also foresee the possibility of Stronghold and even Courtyard tournaments.

Quaggan wonder, if there is possible overhaul for Stronghold and Coutyard?In Quaggan opinion Stronghold is in dire need of major changes, like removal of door breakers, destroying gates should be players job, as defending them. Damage dealt to gates shouldn't be as bad as in WvW, players shouldn't have issues with destroying gate when not contested, maybe you could add Flag at the mid, which would give +100% damage to gates while controled, maybe summoned Heroes of the Mist should apply such buff, but game mode should be all about interactions between players, not babysiting NPCs (with exception of Lord). Quaggan would also leave suppiles at mid, so players could use them to repair damaged, but not destroyed gates.

Quaggan would rework Coutyard into annihilation* (no respawns), best of 3.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:In addition, we’re currently discussing the feasibility of adding custom arena support/special tournament support for large team (15 v 15?) elimination style matches. This does get a bit more complicated as the current UI breaks with anything more than 10 v 10.

Ooo, but can't you use raid UI, the same is used in WvW?Quaggan is sure WvW players would love such tournaments!

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:What other game modes would you like to see show up in tournaments? Keep in mind that any game modes requiring new maps would involve quite a long development time.

Quaggan would rather see reworks/improvements to already made content like Stronghold/Annihilation*.

Hi

As someone who has been partaking in community-built 15v15s for 4+ years, I can suggest something that would make this loads easier on your team

• Rescale the guild hall arenas for use so they are larger (equal or near sized to Obsidian Sanctum)
• Reduce confusion and retaliation damages to WvW values (or give us ability to toggle this)
• Allow spectators or sideline watchers or whatever to click on players so they can see HP/boons/condis etc

And that is it! We do not need UI, or score tracking, or fancy stats, or weekly tournaments (but those would be nice). Just basic QoL updates.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:In addition, we’re currently discussing the feasibility of adding custom arena support/special tournament support for large team (15 v 15?) elimination style matches. This does get a bit more complicated as the current UI breaks with anything more than 10 v 10.

As exciting as this is, I would strongly, strongly encourage you to either use Obsidian Sanctum or make a map with a playarea that equally sized. Anything smaller is a mess to GvG in.

Similarly, the WvW ruleset (and the fact that it uses your real gear rather than the PvP system) is much better suited to 15v15 than the PvP ruleset. It would be a nightmare to try to balance skills, amulets, etc for both 5v5 and 15v15 at the same time, much better to just use the WvW rules which are already balanced around higher numbers, and allow for more interesting metas and theorycrafting by letting us use our gear.

Why not add the new game mode(s) to the unranked queue and see how it goes? (the checkboxes to be default unchecked, so people can have the option to optin if they want).

Any plans to do anything with Stronghold? Could this map be reworked (maybe enlarged a little) to support 10v10 GvG-style fights?

Edit: didn't read the Maps thread when I posted this, will ask in there.

If you went as big as 15v15 you would need to have additional capture points/mechanics to prevent a massive teamfight slowdown, and if it is being observed/streamed, it might be difficult to watch with the AOE and graphics effects. This worries me already as I have skills that do not activate with the current server lag. Apparently this occurred because servers were changed to Amazon ones. The lag is noticeable-at least doubled-and many times my skills just don't work now in 5v5.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:In addition, we’re currently discussing the feasibility of adding custom arena support/special tournament support for large team (15 v 15?) elimination style matches. This does get a bit more complicated as the current UI breaks with anything more than 10 v 10.

I will personally fly out to Seattle and help fix that bug for you for free because 15s have been popular in the community for years and 10s and lower have never really been a thing and you will see way more use out of this game mode if it fits 15s.

Keep in mind that any game modes requiring new maps would involve quite a long development time.

Like I said earlier in the thread just use a re-skin of Eternal Coliseum without anything in the middle.

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:What other game modes would you like to see show up in tournaments? Keep in mind that any game modes requiring new maps would involve quite a long development time.

Personally a deathmatch like game mode for 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 like WoW would be very interesting, the maps should be very open with not many line of sight objects, now that there are more support roles like Firebrand and Druid it might be actually fun and viable. I would start with 2v2, as that is already there. Then increase it to 3v3.

An Arathi Basin or Warsong Gulch like modes would be very fun and interesting.I'm not alone in that most are tired of the current conquest PvP map, in my clan most of the people are not playing PvP constantly because its getting to the point that is hate inducing to play Conquest.

I would like to discuss stronghold as I think it has potential it just hasn't seen any adjustments since its release. Stronghold got off to a bad start at the offset of the HoT meta where bunker mesmer, full power auramancer, and engi stealth gyro could make door breakers nearly invincible when getting to the door. All of these features have been toned down a decent amount but the initial sour taste remains for most players. Currently there are still additional problems that will inevitably plague the game mode but we can't see them because nearly no top tier players play it. Out side of the initial showcase tournament for stronghold (where teams didn't play cheese comps for it on the presupposition that they would be balanced out) there have been no competitive events in stronghold.

What I would like to see is a 5th daily tournament added to the rotation which is an exclusively stronghold tournament. This will be a way to get at least some competitive teams playing the game mode so that we can actually figure out what is too strong and needs to be adjusted. As it currently is there are basically no platinum level players in the map other than me and my guildies when we do guild missions which means we don't really have any good data on how to properly play the map, and having an AT in it would fix that.

While we don't have any good data on what is wrong with stronghold I can speculate on certain cheesy elements which should probably be toned down.

Stability Summoning Mist Champions: If an enemy warrior pops all stances, and summons a mist champion, there is very little an enemy can do unless they run a necro with good boon corruption, a trickery thief, or some extremely niche builds with reliable boon rip and cc. Make the summoner unable to have stability on them, but also reduce the channel time so that it isn't too easy to interrupt the summon permanently.

Turtling is Too Strong: It is currently too easy to camp in your base and only come out to kill door breakers, archers then run straight back inside. Mist champions make this a bit harder but it isn't hard to force the game to go to timer even against vastly superior opponents which is just boring. I suggest making door breakers and archers gain progressively gain more health and maybe more damage each time they are summoned. This way you can easily shut down the first few waves of mobs but if you don't try to counter pressure, eventually you will be overwhelmed by extremely tanky door-breakers.

Support Firebrand Too Good at Keeping Mobs Alive: This is a balance problem but it hurts stronghold currently in the way the old bunkers killed stronghold on release. The build is simply too good at keeping door breakers alive with excessive healing and defensive boons. Auramancer was in a good place before pof where it was certainly worth having to keep door breakers healthy, but concentrated fire could bring them down, firebrand is just far too much.

Single Mist Champion Summons: The mist champions make a massive impact on the game and can be a major game changer when summoned, the problem is when the summon events occur at only one of the summoning locations. The problem with the single summon champion events is that it heavily encourages a strong team-fight comp to just overwhelm that one summon and get it guaranteed which they can push with all the way to victory. Having every summon be a double summon event means that a more skirmish focused team has a chance to get the other summon and make a counter push unless the team-fight comp splits up their zerg to defend, at which their main push is stoppable.

Lastly new maps would be greatly appreciated, but let's get the one map we currently have in good working order before we expand on it.