Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

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Comments

  • If you are going to nerf condition burst dmg,then consider looking some condi cleansing abilities some classes have.I can understand it's healthier,mostly in a PvP / WvW PoV,to reduce the burst potential of conditions,but some classes have extremely high condi removal tools while other classes have almost 0.

    The condi burst helped dealing with classes with high number of condi cleansing tools,but destroyed classes without ones.Now with the condi changes,you don't only help the classes with low condi cleanses,but also the classes with extreme condi removal abilities.Please,take a look on that,don't just let it be and make us wait for the next patch day.Helping classes with low condi cleansing is good and welcomed,but don't let the high condi removal specs to run untouched.

    Just a PvP PoV,thank you.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    Condis shouldn't be bursty, it's a fact. In a perfect game, indeed, they should deal slightly more damage than power, but over a significant amount of time. Which justifies Dire and TB stats to exist.

    Now, they are bursty, which is an issue in PvP and WvW, and their key efficiency in PvE. Why ? Specifically in PvP game modes :
    1. Because they can
    2. Because it's too dangerous to engage in a long fight (dangerous and boring, btw)
    3. Because, whatever people say, condi will deal more damage than power only if they're not removed or negated (resistance). So as the condi removal is a big thing (firebrands ?), a burst is the logical solution.

    Now, that change is a difficult bet for condi users. It raises the risk, and shed a strong uncertainity on the reward. It's also a dangerous path to follow. We'll see...

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Im going to have a complete ascended heavy armor set for my guardian (either FB/DH) and now cant decide whether to use vipers/marauders stats. Wonder which would be the best for playing mostly fractals.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @apharma.3741 said:
    4 burns for 5s will do the same damage as 2 burns for 10s and once fully into a rotation the dps numbers shouldn’t change too much. The real question is just how long of a ramp up time we are talking about for PvE but considering most of the highest dps builds are currently condition builds which have less stringent requirements for hitting the numbers (no scholar) then there needs to be a shift to make power worth running.

    At this moment the only way to make power builds worth running in PvE on most classes is to buff power builds. No matter how you nerf condi, power dps warrior, necro or ranger for example are simply not worth taking.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Umbramare.9156 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Umbramare.9156 said:
    How to kill condi classes in PvE 101.

    4 burns for 5s will do the same damage as 2 burns for 10s and once fully into a rotation the dps numbers shouldn’t change too much. The real question is just how long of a ramp up time we are talking about for PvE but considering most of the highest dps builds are currently condition builds which have less stringent requirements for hitting the numbers (no scholar) then there needs to be a shift to make power worth running.

    ???
    If you'd play with any halfdecent people you'd know that power gets favored if your groupdps isnt complete garbage.

    Power builds? DH, weaver and engy pretty much and only on fights where you want spiked damage instead of over time. That’s a hand full of encounters in the game but everything else condi is at a much bigger advantage due to no scholar runes and simple rotations. I don’t know any competent group that favours power over condi, maybe some try hards that think they’re elite that insist on weaver only but it says more about where they’re heads are stuffed than anything else.

    @Astralporing.1957 Agreed but only for some classes, would also help if there was a decent alternative to scholar with power/ferocity but a 5% damage while you have fury or might.

    I stand with Mo.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    Please delete double post

    I stand with Mo.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    Condis shouldn't be bursty, it's a fact. In a perfect game, indeed, they should deal slightly more damage than power, but over a significant amount of time. Which justifies Dire and TB stats to exist.

    Now, they are bursty, which is an issue in PvP and WvW, and their key efficiency in PvE. Why ? Specifically in PvP game modes :
    1. Because they can
    2. Because it's too dangerous to engage in a long fight (dangerous and boring, btw)
    3. Because, whatever people say, condi will deal more damage than power only if they're not removed or negated (resistance). So as the condi removal is a big thing (firebrands ?), a burst is the logical solution.

    Now, that change is a difficult bet for condi users. It raises the risk, and shed a strong uncertainity on the reward. It's also a dangerous path to follow. We'll see...

    In the perfect scenario, Anet changes (what they call) condi damage skills... to DoT/Periodic damage... just like every other game on the market. And this DoT damage is treated like any other form of damage with regard to stats and armor damage mitigation. DoT skills can also critical. Secondary Status Effects (CC) in skills (chill, immob, cripple, daze...) are mitigated by the various cleansing/removal skills...

    We shall see what happens, but I’m not hopeful.

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    @eldrjth.7384 said:
    Im going to have a complete ascended heavy armor set for my guardian (either FB/DH) and now cant decide whether to use vipers/marauders stats. Wonder which would be the best for playing mostly fractals.

    Wait until Tuesday... always best to see the changes and see how things settle.

  • Please make these changes per game mode, and not a blanket change. PvE condition damage is fairly delicate. There would be a huge uproar if you applied these changes to PvE.

  • Just waiting to see if this screws up my playstyle. Wait and see I guess.

  • Maybe fix scourge shade ?

  • It may be possible to change the perception of condition. Like lol, whether the AP assassin or the ad assassin are all the assassins, why do you want to tangle the damage type AP or ad(condItion or direct)

  • Sefer.9618Sefer.9618 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    Great. In the same move you could fix or revert the complete change of the Necro's Shade-Mechanic which wasn't mentioned in the patch notes. One cannot simply change a mechanic completely and think it's ok not to mention it... Which not only affects WvW and PvP but PvE, too, seeing most recent reports.

  • Kumouta.4985Kumouta.4985 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashyri.5426 said:
    Im hoping for focus buffs soooooo badly! I just loved the new "The Binding of Ipos" and I wish it could be more useful, specially for necro since it fits the class perfectly.
    By the way, thank you very much for it and congratulations on this masterpiece.

    Actually, focus dps should be higher than offhand dagger for necro- if plague sending lasted 20 seconds! but it doesn't last 20 sec.
    buffs would be welcome nonetheless!

  • Number 1 change I would like to see. Every class having the same base vitality.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    Go nuts ANET, balance it out and all that. Just PLEASE do not kill an already shaky Renegade! We finally are seeing some love and to kill said love would be both a crime and a shame. But yes, burst belongs to the Power classes and damage over time is just what it says. Its the other tweaking you mentioned that scares me.....tread softly? ;)

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    Might be a win win change if most condies get a decrease in initial damage but longer duration because condies will gain insane durations and stack potential over time with gear and buffs wich means fairer pvp fights and buff vs pve bosses and raids

  • In the perfect scenario, Anet changes (what they call) condi damage skills... to DoT/Periodic damage... just like every other game on the market. And this DoT damage is treated like any other form of damage with regard to stats and armor damage mitigation. DoT skills can also critical. Secondary Status Effects (CC) in skills (chill, immob, cripple, daze...) are mitigated by the various cleansing/removal skills...

    Oh PLEASE no. I love condi specifically because I don't want to deal with the randomness of crit chance. Condi shouldn't just feel like delayed power damage. What's the identity there? There has to be some kind of point for specializing in a damage type that isn't power.

  • wow just nerf the condis and not buff power builds i can just imagen warrior dps now i man power warrior thos 18k-21k on perfect condisons but in new wing fight and raids there soo kitten becous the only class who has to melaa with power realy anet if u nerf condis andlist buff power on class not nerf them

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    Condis shouldn't be bursty, it's a fact. In a perfect game, indeed, they should deal slightly more damage than power, but over a significant amount of time. Which justifies Dire and TB stats to exist.

    Now, they are bursty, which is an issue in PvP and WvW, and their key efficiency in PvE. Why ? Specifically in PvP game modes :
    1. Because they can
    2. Because it's too dangerous to engage in a long fight (dangerous and boring, btw)
    3. Because, whatever people say, condi will deal more damage than power only if they're not removed or negated (resistance). So as the condi removal is a big thing (firebrands ?), a burst is the logical solution.

    Now, that change is a difficult bet for condi users. It raises the risk, and shed a strong uncertainity on the reward. It's also a dangerous path to follow. We'll see...

    In the perfect scenario, Anet changes (what they call) condi damage skills... to DoT/Periodic damage... just like every other game on the market. And this DoT damage is treated like any other form of damage with regard to stats and armor damage mitigation. DoT skills can also critical. Secondary Status Effects (CC) in skills (chill, immob, cripple, daze...) are mitigated by the various cleansing/removal skills...

    We shall see what happens, but I’m not hopeful.

    I'm not hopeful the slightest as well. Increasing the condi duration might compensate in PvE (+raids etc.) but is a nonsense in PvP/WvW. They could make condis last 75s it wouldn't change a thing for the simple reason that fights are too quickly finished. Beyond a specific threshold, it's no use to increase the duration.

    Moreover, the biggest issue to me isn't the damage figures, but the application/removal rate that make condi an actually not-so-reliable source of damage. Any news on that topic ? Of course not ! That'd require bringing down whole elite specs and whole traitlines.

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Let's see how this plays out first.

    Might as well provide positive feedback.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    Might be a win win change if most condies get a decrease in initial damage but longer duration because condies will gain insane durations and stack potential over time with gear and buffs wich means fairer pvp fights and buff vs pve bosses and raids

    We can but hope and pray that that is their goal, and they reach it!

  • FrouFrou.4958FrouFrou.4958 Member ✭✭✭

    Are you guys aware that there is a major ranger/druid/soulbeast pet bug where quickness is not affecting majority of ranger pets (To be precise 41 out of 52 of our pets are bugged) at all? That's pretty huge as rangers have several abilities and traits that give our pets quickness, yet it does nothing at all. Any ETA for the fix? Link to the topic -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/565/one-big-problem-with-rangers-and-pets-anet-fix-this-bug

    Froudo // Judge Legends [JDGE] // Seafarer's Rest

  • Deth.1698Deth.1698 Member ✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

    We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

    Would love to continue seeing more frequent, smaller-scope balance updates

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhyse.8179 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

    What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

    This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

    GW2 has too many game modes and they all have vastly different balance needs. There are two options: Balance based on PVP, which will result in GW2 being a perpetual salt mine (see: the last 5 years), or to balance for separate game modes.

    PVP needs control and burst.
    PVE needs DPS and sustain.
    WVW needs... a reason to exist. That was sarcasm. TBH I don't play it so I dunno what it needs.
    Raids need DPS, more DPS, and a Druid. And also more DPS.

    You simply can't balance one of these game modes based on the other (except perhaps wvw and pvp). It's not possible. Adjusting a boss's HP can't alter the fundamentally different requirements of each environment. Players and developers both have to accept that. If my beloved condi Reaper isn't viable as top tier raid spec, fine. Raids are demanding like that, there isn't room for a sub-par spec. We accept that or don't raid; that's part of accessing that game mode. But I don't want to be denied a slice of cake that I've already baked so someone else can get a cookie. The issue is untargeted changes having unintended consequences. Nerfing deathshroud for all builds, in all game modes, in order to buff power specs in raids was a huge mistake that has sparked a huge wave of anger. And angry players are not likely to be or remain paying players. It's in Anet's own interest not to pull these stunts.

    I don't think the game will ever truly be balanced. It's structurally impossible from the game design - there are too many opposed demands to meet. But the closest you can get will be to balance each mode separately. Without the ability to target balance changes specifically where they are needed, there will always be a cascade of unintended consequences, and a bottomless quarry full of salt will be mined with gusto. Balance can be changed without changing skill or class funcitonality, btw. Stat scaling, condition durations, crit magnitudes, all the hidden stats behind each skill can be adjusted as needed per game mode. There are lots of ways to adjust balance with altering the feel and flow of a build. Besides which, PVP and PVE builds are so widely different that it really doesn't matter if they feel the same, because nobody will ever use the same build in both modes.

    they can just nerf raid bosses or change it to not require DPS DPS DPS and more DPS.

  • Does this mean that we'll get more mini balance patches from now on? Like 4 major balance patches throughout the year, and maybe 4-8 minor balance patches through the year?

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Ballance for wvw needs to be seperate from pvp and pve, some things I have thought what could help with that, my opinion of course in WVW ONLY because it is where I have most of my in game time spent.
    Return max condi cap to 25 or
    Remove condi from might; condi should not burst, might is a burst mech. that sends many skills to be a burst each tick or
    remove negetive conditon damage sigils and runes etc. and make toughness work for conditon damage per stack, or duration, or tick or combinination mix of them toward your over all armor. or
    make specific boons work against specific conditions as they stack or tick, a hard counter being boon rip, and coruption which is now plentiful and remove resistance or
    changing it to neg. condition duration.
    or change the way rengeneration works so that the tick comes from the sender of the buff and not your personal healing power, and makes the highest tick first above giving it to yourself.
    or give condition based stats modifiers like power; percision, ferocity. Make conditions be duration expertise and another modifier so that getting max armor/damage has a cost.
    Or remove Precision as a stat and ad it to traits to be used in conditions and power to modify both making ferocity and expertise equal single modifiers

  • Ghotistyx.6942Ghotistyx.6942 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    A couple of things people aren't understanding:

    1. Potential condition damage will stay about the same, or in the case of Purging Flames, actually increases by a tiny amount. Condition classes aren't going to be gutted by these changes in PvE.
    2. You still need expertise for PvE damage. Just because the base conditions last longer doesn't mean you're dealing the same damage per second unless your Expertise is also the same as before the change.
    3. This will help cleansing in PvP and WvW (and even PvE). You'll have longer to decide when to use a cleanse and your cleanses will come off cooldown faster when compared to equal damage over time.
    4. These changes don't need to be split between PvE and PvP. There is no appreciable change to PvE after this update.
    5. Vulnerability will become more spike centric, which is honestly a better position than it currently is. Maintaining Vulnerability might become a meaningful choice rather than a nice side-effect.
    6. And most importantly, these changes need to happen and be understood before other changes can happen. Power can't be buffed when the balance between Power and Condi is in flux.

    Fishsticks

  • Vitali.5039Vitali.5039 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits

    Hoping for a rework of one of the underperforming Spite's minor traits :3

                - e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.
    

    The reset idea could be a good thing but putting it into (elite) skills could be problematic.
    Maybe putting the reset on weapon (or legend) swap could be better, lowering the vulnerability to 3 stacks.

  • I just have one thing to say: Guardian "...when burning stacks over the threshold." That particular trait is one central to my build and bursting that burning quickly is important. The entire point of burning was that it did high damage for a short period, in comparison to other conditions. At least as far as I understand it, I'm very open to being wrong.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ppl lvl your expectations. The extra patch as said by the devs is gonna be a small one. Dont expect all your problems to be solved with it.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Vulf.3098 said:

    @arawulf.5210 said:
    Besides being less bursty for PvP, can this be understood to be a DPS increase for fractals and raids for condi builds? I suppose it depends on the specific encounter. Overall, I'm trying to figure out if I should be happy about this or concerned (play Firebrand condi but don't PvP often)

    It is going to be a pretty big nerf on bosses that have phases where they go invulnerable/immune for awhile or completely clear conditions. Basically this is going to further widen the gap between Ele/DH stacking on bosses like KC. I am pretty concerned about this.

    Those bosses are already meant to be tackled more by power builds. You can outdps condi builds with power builds on these bosses. It's a matter of balances. You have power for instant damage, and condi for DoT. It should always have been this way. It's not a bad thing. It just makes varied team comps needed, instead of making condi damage king in every situation.

    On PvP modes, i think cleanse abilities should have an added function of reducing the duration of condis remaining on you by like 30-50%, so that you can manage the 20 stacks of every condi in the game being applied without having to dedicate 2-3 utility slots and a couple traits to condi cleanse.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭

    So like, as long as my Condi Engie is not in a trash bin in PVE and I can still do my stuff in PVP, I don't care.

    I like classes doing a set amount of condis. For example:

    Engie: Confusion, Poison, Bleed, Burn
    Ele: Chill, Bleed, Burn, Vulnerability
    Ranger: Bleed, Poison, Confusion, Immobolize.

    This amount of Condi in each class is fine to me. Don't get me wrong I like some power builds as well, but DoTs just make things interesting when I'm not really in the mood to be a melee.

    As long as you can keep the balance between power and Condi, and not make it trash like pre-HoT, I'm all game for bringing it in line.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

    What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

    This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

    On the other hand, designing and balancing purely for PvP yields some specs that are absolute trash in PvE due to their main mechanics focusing around mechanics that don't exist in PvE. Boon corrupts, boon strips from scourge/SB are huge parts of their design, and yet are useless in PvE. Scrapper was clearly a PvP oriented spec.

    The balance should never be done for only a single game mode, that's what got us into such an awful state balance wise in the first place. It needs to be done with considerations for all game modes at the same time.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    I like the idea of conditions lasting longer but being less bursty.

    Frankly, I'd go even further, in your example the burning stack should be single, 16-20 seconds. Even more damage total, even longer, even less burst potential.

    Differentiates the game further between the "I bring the damage output" condi specs and the "I kill stuff" power specs.

    This is actually quite a bad solution. Remember why conditions were updated in the first place? Its because it took them forever to kill anything in PvE, to hte point where you were basically forced into a berserker build (and just screw you core necro) because their ramp up was so ridiculously wrong. Your solution would take us right back to that, which would eliminate condi builds from open world PvE and probably a great deal of high end PvE as well, simply because of how long it would take for condi builds to do their damage.

    @LUST.7241 I have to disagree with you here. Condi cleanses are fine as they are honestly, and some of them even need to be toned down in how many they do cleanse (notably natural healing). What needs to be changed instead is to lower the amount of conditions being thrown around in GW2 by a rather substantial amount. Instead of needlessly buffing cleanses, simply make them more effective by lowering the amount of conditions being applied in competitive environments.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Serious problem for some classes !
    This change buffs condi cleanse, since u have more time to use it and remove more condis, which might not be totally bad idea....but RESISTANCE gets nerfed directly!

    Imagine, ur a warrior ur hit with 3 stacks of burn for 5 sec, u pop resistance = u take 0 damage unless stripped or corrupted. now take 2 stacks for 8 sec = u tick 3 times with burn ! yolo, another nerf to already strippable and corruptable resistance... classes without enough cleanse : pls say goodbye :-)

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