Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

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Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

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Comments

  • frickenreesh.7068frickenreesh.7068 Member
    edited December 7, 2017

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

    What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

    This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

    On the other hand, designing and balancing purely for PvP yields some specs that are absolute trash in PvE due to their main mechanics focusing around mechanics that don't exist in PvE. Boon corrupts, boon strips from scourge/SB are huge parts of their design, and yet are useless in PvE. Scrapper was clearly a PvP oriented spec.

    The balance should never be done for only a single game mode, that's what got us into such an awful state balance wise in the first place. It needs to be done with considerations for all game modes at the same time.

    The easy Fix to this would be to add more boons to npcs across the board from starter zones up, to teach players what boons and corruptions/rips are so as they grow in the game they can learn to fight against them, making their end game content in pvp, wvw or raids/fractals more satisfying to themselves and to their team.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭

    A thought just came to me

    Seriously why can't this game seem to get condi and power balanced? In SWTOR Verelance Snipers were a DoT class that (when I played about five months ago) were top DPS, out of the whole entire game. Can spread their poison to a whole mob in a flashpoint. Their Marksman brother build was fairly low, because it was only decent at single target dps.

    But, on the flip side we now look at the Assassin family. Hatred Assassin's were the third lowest DoT DPS class in the game, while Deception Assassins were either the third or second highest right after the Condi Snipers as a Power build.

    You see this here? Power and Condi have their really good build equivalent and sub par build equivalent . This struggle for power and condi never was truly an issue. This game, for reasons I cannot begin to understand, are having this problem that no other mmo seems to suffer from. I cannot wrap my head around as to why.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

    What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

    This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

    On the other hand, designing and balancing purely for PvP yields some specs that are absolute trash in PvE due to their main mechanics focusing around mechanics that don't exist in PvE. Boon corrupts, boon strips from scourge/SB are huge parts of their design, and yet are useless in PvE. Scrapper was clearly a PvP oriented spec.

    The balance should never be done for only a single game mode, that's what got us into such an awful state balance wise in the first place. It needs to be done with considerations for all game modes at the same time.

    They aren't good enough at the job to do that. Let's be honest here it's been over 5 years and the balance has gotten worse with each expansion.

    The point no PvE'r is tackling is why isn't PvE content being balanced in direct correlation with class balance. I'm sorry but why can't bosses have boons? Would give a slot to necro instantly in that instance. These types of things are fluid and can be changed, but Anet refuses to do so. Instead we are left with a balance team who is so focused on the raid meta they are destroying PvP. The PvP Team had to remove amulets from the game in an emergent act to save PvP.

    Think about that for a second.

    The PvP team is removing amulets b/c otherwise the game would be even MORE imbalanced than it is currently. They are currently splitting skills now.

    It's time to change PvE content in regards to PvP balance. There's no other way at this time. Maybe in the future we can go back, but at this juncture 2/3rds of your game is being sacrificed. It's so bad they are starting to notice on their overhead.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭

    Do you have any plans for an underused weapons/utility skills/traits overhaul any time soon? I know many of these skills and traits are generally buffed or adjusted in droves. It's been a while since the last pass and there are most definitely some skills and traits that could use some love now (looking at you, guardian staff)!

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Wintersday is coming fellow Tyrians and, during the recent AMA, I made reference to a small balance update and I wished to follow-up to let you know that we're aiming to release that update next Tuesday, 12/12.


    We've heard your frustrations with the burstiness of conditions invalidating power builds across game modes (though for differing reasons in each). Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.

    This small update has primary two foci:

    • Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
      - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
      - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

    • Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone). At small amounts vulnerability doesn’t feel good and adding more vulnerability to something that is capped on it has little value. These changes will offer chances to spike up vulnerability when it is ebbing or encourage new build styles.
      - e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

    As always, we’ll be looking for your feedback once you have had a chance to play with the upcoming changes. We’ll start a post here after December 12th to hear your thoughts, so please prepare your most constructive feedback.

    See you in the lands!

    Not on topic but I feel it’s a good place to ask as it’s another damage type comparison.

    Are there any plans to address ranged damage vs melee damage?

    Well before the trait lines revamp ranged damage usually did less than melee damage by quite a considerable margin which meant getting close to enemies while being risky was more rewarding. Since then we’ve seen a number of changes which has led to some odd discrepancies in this mantra. I’ve seen revenants auto attack on hammer at 1200 range do over 4K damage and coalescence of ruin go as high as 14k and phase smash hit for 12k all from a nice safe 1200 range. I’ve seen 4K auto attacks from rangers at over 1500 range and guardians likewise seem to do as much damage at range on their longbow as at close range on swords and great swords.

    I’ve noticed this worrying trend where melee attacks (same traits used) are doing similar damage numbers to ranged attacks, I can kind of understand rangers having a good long range attack but there are a lot of classes where your ranged option will do as much damage as your melee option. Is this a change of stance between melee being higher risk and so doing more damage or is this something that can be put on the table for future improvement?

  • I hope this balance patch is well split between PVE and PvP. Because where as I can understand that the PvP need on condi damage was very much needed, the PvE areas of the game shouldn't be made to suffer because of it.
    Ramp damage is fine, but it heavily reduces condition effectiveness in open world, mob clearing and anything with short phases, potentially eliminating a reason to play them outside from specific bosses in raids.
    Please don't kill PvE condi builds!

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    ' See It For What It Is,
    Not What
    You Want
    It To Be
    '

    Toxicity is the root cause of the problem and that is what it is.

    Toxicity must be removed across the board for the health of the game

    From-

    • All Classes

    • All Skills

    • All bulds

    • All traits

    • All specs

    • All designs

    • All elite specializations

    • All environments

    • PvP+WvW game modes

    • All bad behaviors

    Without Exception!!

    Stop Rewarding Unaccountability And Irresponsibility!!

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

    We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

    Well, based on previous experience with this games "balance" updates and the use of the word "balance" to begin with is rather ironic. It would be good to actually (and finally!) start getting this games burst damage both condi and direct under control.

    I do hope that you also take a look at how many conditions can be applied at once, getting riddled with 5+ conditions every few seconds is just ridiculous it simply makes taking Condition removal pointless as the application is WAAAAAAY over the top compared to removal. Of course applications should be slightly better but it shouldnt be 90/10 in condition application favor.

    Any chance of some Weaver love? Sword is STILL one of the worst weapons for a weaver to use and that is just madness :( Earth could do with slightly better condition damage/stacks while Air could do with better direct damage and Fire just seems to really be weak at both its condition and its direct damage when talking about the auto attacks.

  • The one thing that has always annoyed my about conditions is that there's little impact from condition removal since they can be re-applied right away and there's not that much impact derived from when a condition is removed. That's why I always though the base mechanics of conditions needed two changes:

    • Mindless spam of skills should be less effective than mindful use of them.

      • For example, with conditions, by giving a very short time in which a condition can't be re-applied after being removed. Something like just 0.75s. It could be shown as making the condition go gray in the effect area like when control conditions go gray under an enemy with a defiance bar.
      • This could also be applied to boons, so removing a boon always gives that short window of opportunity without being able to re-apply and spam it again. And even to stun breakers, making stun breakers give a 0.75s immunity to stun when they break a stun and only when they do, so a stun breaker always gives a split second to react even if it doesn't come with added stability, and heavy CC spam isn't as effective as tactical use of it.
    • Ramping up stacking conditions should also derive from mechanic that give greater effects based on the stacks of that condition already placed by you the enemy, rather than keeping each stack as just that. That is, throwing more and more of a condition on someone who isn't removing it should work better against them than if they remove it at key intervals.

      • For example, applying a stack of bleeding on an enemy could add a short duration to any stack of bleeding you own. So, if for example, adding a stack gave 0.5s to any existing stack you placed, dealing 4 stacks would give your stacks 2 extra seconds.
      • Or something like making burning deal 1 additional burning stack for a short duration for every 3 stacks of burning already placed by you on the enemy, so whenever a skill burns, it bursts a little, making skills like Flamestrike work better after building up some stacks of burning on an enemy.
  • Whaaaaat? Wintersday HYPE!!

  • Poobah.6254Poobah.6254 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

    I'm sorry to come in to your thread and be all negative but I feel like this is a bad change. Power revenant is already in an absolutely awful place in PvE, but was kinda fine in PvP past I checked, so what it desperately needs are buffs to longterm damage sustain what this is is actually an across the board nerf to all rev builds which won't do anything to PvE while making rev maybe 1-2% more bursty upfront in PvP which it really doesn't need anyway.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:
    At this moment the only way to make power builds worth running in PvE on most classes is to buff power builds. No matter how you nerf condi, power dps warrior, necro or ranger for example are simply not worth taking.

    There needs to be buffs to many underpowered power builds (Necromancer / Warrior) as well as a ramp up increase in time to condition and a full review of what condition cleanses are currently available to each class. My hope is this is part of their new balance plan because frankly most everything prior to this has just resulted in niche builds becoming more and more powerful and really limiting viability for the bulk of current builds.

  • Saiyan.1704Saiyan.1704 Member ✭✭✭

    No one here has issues with Condi. We only have issues with Scourges.

    Anet demolished burn FB by nerfing F1. Now you're killing All Condi classes by increasing burn duration.. Mesmers are going to have an even worse time with me now.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭

    Theres nothing wrong with conditions, we are still in a power meta Anet, the forums are less then 1% of the population do not give in to these tears they are just terrible players.

    Only 3 classes use conditions and all of them are anti faceroll classes which is why people cry so much stop punishing people for just being good at there class.

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    Any chances of we getting a weaver buff? Weaver need some love

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Those bosses are already meant to be tackled more by power builds. You can outdps condi builds with power builds on these bosses. It's a matter of balances. You have power for instant damage, and condi for DoT. It should always have been this way. It's not a bad thing. It just makes varied team comps needed, instead of making condi damage king in every situation.

    More power builds as in Ele and DH that are already taken on almost every boss? So much Variety! This is not balanced in any shape or form and contradicts the statement that was made in a recent AMA where they want every class to be brought into raid instead of if you are not X spec for Y boss you are not being brought. Condi damage is not king in every situation in raids. So until more power builds are on par with DH and Ele you can not make this argument as "balance".

    Honestly these changes are looking more like a blanket PvP nerf that is going to bleed over into PvE.

  • @SloRules.3560 said:
    Also please take a look at hammer rev vs staff ele. Hammer rev just shouldn't be able to do as much damage as ele, when they are both full zerk, because it's a whole lot more survivable.

    Eh, not sure I would agree with this. Ele, more specifically weaver, effectively has 4 dodges with twist of fate, add mist form and lightning flash, and you can get caught by a zerg and still make it out alive. Rev, not so much.

  • Is Deadeye getting any amount of buffs?

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shagaliscious.6281 said:
    Eh, not sure I would agree with this. Ele, more specifically weaver, effectively has 4 dodges with twist of fate, add mist form and lightning flash, and you can get caught by a zerg and still make it out alive. Rev, not so much.

    So having to use THREE utilities for avoiding damage doesnt seem a little excessive? I mean the rev could use abilities and avoidance skills of their own as well. Add in Legend swap, add in the condi removal, healing, alacrity that Ventari has, add in the boons, and healing skill Herald has and you have a very sustainable character where as a Zerk ele gets looked at and they die lol

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with the overall idea. I just dont believe that "strong sustained damage once it has ramped up" can be achieved in 10-15 second fights with out it degenerating into the same thing we have now.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    Sigh...

    Condition "Burst" is not the issue (other than a few outliers who lay down way too many conditions at once). Conditions need to be balanced in both short and long duration fights. The issue is that conditions are supposed to be balanced by doing less raw damage but penetrating armor. I don't know how or why you guys seem to have lost sight of that in favor of the idea of making them like DoTs in other games, which they aren't and shouldn't be.

    Get rid of the absurd number of sources of cleanse and immunity and lower condition damage across the board.

  • @Inoki.6048 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    Condi burst has become overwhelming not only in # of stacks, but also in # of conditions applied at once. For an example, look no further than scourge condi bomb:

    That's 8 condi applied more or less instantly with no obvious tell to dodge. There's no real way to avoid this other than "don't ever be close to a scourge".

    that is disgusting and needed to be addressed from the beginning. I can't fathom how anyone thought this was OK.

    Moreover when it was supposed to be an "heavy support spec". When i saw that it make me laugh. How can they fail at this point if the goal of the spec was support? Because right now it's the worse condi bomb the game ever had.

  • @Rengaru.4730 said:
    Of course I don't know the full balance changes so I could be mistaken, but wouldn't the proposed chage to Mutilate Defenses destroy the synergy it already has with the other Devastation traits (namely Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning) especially in AoE situations?

    Yes.

    If they go through with that trait change to power revenant I will actually delete mine. Clueless about their own game.

  • Wonder if they will address or review all the cleanses and resistance. Wait to see how this plays out, but i have a feeling this will have a pretty major impact.

    Burn Guardians are going to cop the worst of this.

    Also wonder if they're going to add back some amulets to PvP given the changes.

    They really need to buff some of the power builds...

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Shara.4716 said:
    Number 1 change I would like to see. Every class having the same base vitality.

    No that'd be really awful, guardian with 15-18k base hp would be completely broken in every game mode.

    What I want to see, however, is HP valued re-evaluated. Ele's 11k hp makes no sense anymore and engineer shouldn't have 15k base(should be 11k since it's so survivability and has so much damage + burst + everything in the entire game more so than ele ever did), scourge also probably shouldn't have 18k base when it sits at 21k with talents and spiking to 27k+ with barriers all the time.

  • notebene.3190notebene.3190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

    In the event I don't get a chance, thank you all for the company and help when I needed it from time to time.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    A concern... "3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.".. If the team doesn't use my perfect idea, then I hope this "2 stacks" example will mean pretty big damage numbers per stack... or you are screwing over condi users... Why? because of the incredible power burst damage being pumped by individual builds in wvw...

    I've seen some ridiculous power burst (1 hit burst and multi-hit burst in seconds) numbers (across many professions), compared to the average amount of HP a player has, so keep all these issues in mind when condi gets gutted and the team doesn't overhaul everything... Example...

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    Sigh...

    Condition "Burst" is not the issue (other than a few outliers who lay down way too many conditions at once). Conditions need to be balanced in both short and long duration fights. The issue is that conditions are supposed to be balanced by doing less raw damage but penetrating armor. I don't know how or why you guys seem to have lost sight of that in favor of the idea of making them like DoTs in other games, which they aren't and shouldn't be.

    Get rid of the absurd number of sources of cleanse and immunity and lower condition damage across the board.

    Condition Burst IS an issue, because the burst happens every 2seconds! Getting riddled with like 5 different conditions with various stacks every few seconds IS an issue. They need to heavily reduce that, maybe even remove it altogether and actually get conditions back to what they are in GOOD games - Damage Over Time. With periods of down time. Not insanely broken damage every 2 seconds.

    absurd cleanses and immunities? Theres very few immunities that have a low enough cool down to really be that effective, The old Warrior Signet was the key one and that got nerfed. Cleanses NEED to be "absurd" because the application is absurd. Getting riddled with SEVERAL different conditions each with various stacks every few seconds makes most classes cleanses totally pointless.

  • Loboling.5293Loboling.5293 Member ✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:
    Condi burst has become overwhelming not only in # of stacks, but also in # of conditions applied at once. For an example, look no further than scourge condi bomb:

    That's 8 condi applied more or less instantly with no obvious tell to dodge. There's no real way to avoid this other than "don't ever be close to a scourge".

    SO MUCH THIS. I hope this patch works out though... Not holding my breath. Good luck balance team. You may have lost my faith, but you have my full support on this. Let's try and finish this season on a high note.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    what counterplay to conditions if your class (revenat) has only a very small condicleance trait ... this trait should get buffed to 3 condicleance like warriors... i dont want to stick with condicleance runes and sigils just for cleanse .....
    oh and i hope you buff renegade fskills shortbow and normal utilities

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @notebene.3190 said:
    This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

    The simple answer is we do not know yet because Renegade does not deal burst damage through condi's. My assumption is Mace 3 will get nerfed again (it was nerfed last balance patch as well) along with possibly Citadel Bombardment since those are really the only abilities that apply multiple stacks of a condition that is part of the main rotation. Axe 5 could also see a nerf but that ability is already on a thin line of "why should I use this over heroic command?" so if it gets nerfed too much it might not be used at all outside of grouping mobs together then ignoring it after that.

    So in other words they will be nerfing a balanced condi build for PvE and shooting an already dead build for PvP/WvW. I just do not get it.

    Edit -

    As for power rev. It needs massive buffs. No amount of nerfs to condi is going to make that a viable option for raids.

  • Ayumi Spender.1082Ayumi Spender.1082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do know if this affects PvE, I'm going to be even more bias against PvP and blame them for YET AGAIN holding PvE back.
    Why is PvP/WvW connected to PvE? Why can't they just be the same character but as some of the things say "This is different depending on the game mode"... then why not just leave it the hell alone in PvE and just do this for those PvP people who likes that PvP stuff?

  • Alpha.1308Alpha.1308 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    i almost lost hope for the balance team, but this is a fantastic way to fix this, and i'm glad they're finally getting around to it

    DoTs should be backloaded, not frontloaded, unless they're on long cooldowns/resources, this game favors short cooldowns and no resources, so this is a step in the right direction for this game, and i'm honestly impressed after being so disappointed in the lack of meaningful balance updates

    if we can keep these types of balancing directions going, this game will be even better than it was before

    (from a PvPer's viewpoint)

    people are complaining how this messes up PvE, but they're not realizing that if they do this right (which, they might not, of course) backloading DoTs will still function the way it's supposed to: low damage on fast dying mobs, but ramping up damage on bosses for higher overall dps with more room for error

    PvE in games should be play how you want and not go with top tier, but we all know that's not how it works, at least in high end content, you get kicked for being suboptimal, and giving people multiple ways to play such as giving some mobs low health that you'd favor high spike damage and some more priority and higher health with more evasion mechanics for DoTs to ramp up their total damage to be useful, it allows more people to find a way they'd like to play

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayumi Spender.1082 said:
    I do know if this affects PvE, I'm going to be even more bias against PvP and blame them for YET AGAIN holding PvE back.
    Why is PvP/WvW connected to PvE? Why can't they just be the same character but as some of the things say "This is different depending on the game mode"... then why not just leave it the hell alone in PvE and just do this for those PvP people who likes that PvP stuff?

    You should blame the PvE team on refusing to adjust the content based on game balance. You can't balance people only code.

    Also what I'm wondering is what PvE balance are we talking about here? I'm curious to know what is a PvE'rs complaint about balance

  • Lexan.5930Lexan.5930 Member ✭✭✭

    I really hope you guys will fix the obstructed stuff with necro shades. It's really annoying in wvw and spvp, and i've actually had some intermittent trouble with it in raids. Having fights like the new one and any long term fight have condi do more damage over time would be awesome and i'm excited to see the changes.

    While this is a small balance patch and you probably wont change weapons compleetly, i would like to see some changes to necro staff to maybe use it as more viable condi weapon, or make the projectile 100% finish and track people, or at least move faster.

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