Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update - Page 6 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

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  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lumberjack.8546 said:

    I don't think condi builds are going to be mitigated to that extent, because if you remember Irenio mentioning that they are** 'Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay'.** Nothing in his post mentions anything about dropping the amount of condition stacks or condition types, merely pacing them out and putting condition damage at a more even pace in accordance to the damage over time philosophy.

    To reiterate, right now we have:

    • Condition builds that output too many stacks of condi in a near instantaneous/instant amount of time. Exp: (Scourge's Profession skills/Shades, Mirage) Now they're pacing them out to avoid them reaching their full potiential in a instant, and even increasing their damage/amount of stacks to reward prolonged exposure to damage sources.

    • Condition damage can be divided into parts, the activation (think, actually hitting the target) and the ticking condis tha arise from the condi. Right now imho we have too many condition setting spells that have too much impact while being hard to avoid/dodge as a large number of them don't have a good telegraph, elongating the damage allows more leeway for classes with less condi clears to clear it without it being too much of a death sentence. (Revs)

    Unfortunately, not very many will listen or adhere to logic. Their tiny and closed mindsets can't handle the thought processes of these kinds of changes. I absolutely LOVE these changes. Condis should not be instant burst applications that deal thousands of damage per second, to be cleared and then, look instantly reapplied, and now you're out of clear and there is nothing you can do. While some professions can just clear them away at an even pace to where they are not affected, others have no counterplay whatsoever. So opening up some counterplay for professions that are not too heavy on condi clear (i.g. engineer) is a good thing. Doesn't mean engi won't still be weak to conditions, because their clears are on high cooldowns, or their clears don't clear too many condis at one time. It just provides a small opening for a counterplay choice that COULD be game changing, or could still cause you to get rekt lul if you miss, or don't properly play, to that said counterplay opportunity. It's so funny to see so many angry people here about this change, i can bet you my entirety of my gold that most of them play high burst condi classes and are mad that they won't be overly kitten op anymore (necros and mesmers). Lumberjack, I am on your side with this. This is not a nerf to condi classes. It's merely a balance, and putting condition damage in the place they were meant to be at: as strong, steady DAMAGE OVER TIME options that can melt you away if you're stupid enough to keep letting conditions stack up on you for too long.
    I think this will promote healthy gameplay in all areas of the game, especially pvp. Finally teach people to actually think a little bit about their approach, fail and hopefully learn and improve from their failures.
    PVE will be fine, not like the amount of condis per single application are going away, and if anything, condi application times are INCREASING, just decreasing how many stacks of one condi can be applied per application, which is awesome, while still giving condis the ability to deal high amounts of damage. if anything, with this change, now condis can be stacked on raid bosses and STAY STACKED ON THEM DUE TO THE TIME AFFECTED INCREASE TO THE SAID CONDITIONS THEMSELVES FOR EACH SKILL.
    All in all, people need to not be kittening ignorant, and think a bit before crying about "CONDI CLASSES ARE DEAD RIP" while actually intelligent people are just lel'ing at their tears for naught.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Mahou.3924Mahou.3924 Member ✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    » show previous quotes

    Yes.

    If they go through with that trait change to power revenant I will actually delete mine. Clueless about their own game.

    Yes, please do so!

  • @Mitsuko.3162 said:
    You need to boost mesmers back after the 40% damage nerf, this is going to basically reduce them even more. Thanks but no thanks. My decision - quit the game.

    Seems a little harsh, my chrono mesmer still has a place in raids and high lvl fracts. For pvp/wvw a mirage power build still get's the job done and so does chrono but mirage is more fun for me.

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
      - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
      - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

    People are still reading this as a nerf? 35=15. 28=16. 16>15. If the rebalance actually goes that way, PvE will see a buff to condi across the board. It'll only be an issue with open world minions who will last a bit longer.

    Only the very initial burst will see a nerf, which amounts to 33% in this example by the time the original condi would've run its course. WvW and PvP players will have a couple extra seconds to clear condis, when initially applied, before they melt. Given complaints, that all sounds good for the game.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭

    So my renegade will be even worse for bosses like e.g. Samarog. Great.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @mygamingid.5816 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
      - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
      - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

    People are still reading this as a nerf? 35=15. 28=16. 16>15. If the rebalance actually goes that way, PvE will see a buff to condi across the board. It'll only be an issue with open world minions who will last a bit longer.

    Only the very initial burst will see a nerf, which amounts to 33% in this example by the time the original condi would've run its course. WvW and PvP players will have a couple extra seconds to clear condis, when initially applied, before they melt. Given complaints, that all sounds good for the game.

    You just pointed out 2 major flaws with anets approach... Here are a couple of potential scenarios...

    • Condi user gets blasted by 10k + hits while trying to slowly build up condi damage, and then gets shredded... This is overkill on the condi user.

    • Condi user manages to survive long enough in a fight and exhausts the opponents ability handle conditions with cleanses and heal... This becomes overkill for the opponent.

    Both scenarios need to be avoided. Anet needs to redesign the system, not just niggle about numbers that don’t address the core problems.

  • This sounds like a long overdue step in the right direction. Hope it works out.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I smell bunker meta in the air. The condi nerf would only make all mirages reroll shatter ( as it will be the only viable spec) for pvp/wvw and then the tears will flood the lands of Tyria.

    I’m more interested to see how the scourge bomb will change to make them more... hmm, approachable.

    In any case, any nerf to condi is a buff to core Warrior and Gamebreaker. On the upside Holosmith will finally be viable.

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  • @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Yukio blaster.9082 said:
    Well my advice to you dev's are:
    1. Lower the DPS for CONDI by half and the DPS for POWER by Third or a bit more than a third, so only bursting can only be mad by multiple players. in the same time and make the sPVP experience more fun and the fights last longer. that's what we hardly see most fights are 1 min max we need longer fights in 1v1 if no bunker build there of course.

    Please people who are in charge of pvp/balance at Anet, completely ignore this quoted post. Slow pvp is really, really, really unfunny. Pretty much every other MMO on the market has super slow pvp - people who want that can play one of those games. Keep this game fast paced.

    actually Shiyo you talking from what you love to do not what good for the game in general we need fast combat system i agree on that but the burstiness to get down so the fights became more enjoyable especially when streaming pvp games or pvp tournaments thats we missed this year :( for them to became easier to understand for the normal viewer who love pvp in general .

    S A R À B

  • Zoser.7245Zoser.7245 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Yukio blaster.9082 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Yukio blaster.9082 said:
    Well my advice to you dev's are:
    1. Lower the DPS for CONDI by half and the DPS for POWER by Third or a bit more than a third, so only bursting can only be mad by multiple players. in the same time and make the sPVP experience more fun and the fights last longer. that's what we hardly see most fights are 1 min max we need longer fights in 1v1 if no bunker build there of course.

    Please people who are in charge of pvp/balance at Anet, completely ignore this quoted post. Slow pvp is really, really, really unfunny. Pretty much every other MMO on the market has super slow pvp - people who want that can play one of those games. Keep this game fast paced.

    actually Shiyo you talking from what you love to do not what good for the game in general we need fast combat system i agree on that but the burstiness to get down so the fights became more enjoyable especially when streaming pvp games or pvp tournaments thats we missed this year :( for them to became easier to understand for the normal viewer who love pvp in general .

    That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    As always, we’ll be looking for your feedback once you have had a chance to play with the upcoming changes. We’ll start a post here after December 12th to hear your thoughts, so please prepare your most constructive feedback.

    hey devs i have a suggestion for you and i know its not fully about the subject but its for the health of the game overall .
    -as we all know GW2 PVP is the best of all available MMO on the market and better and enjoyable more that the MOBA's around but still the PVP community is not so high for a lot of reason's ,balance isn't one of them, simple because all PVP games aren't balanced in anyway.
    the first reason GW2 is marketed as a MMO and the marketing isn't based on PVP, so PVP lovers wont look to GW2 as a PVP game and they still go for the other MOBA games that's got more than 50 million between LOL and DOTA 2 if not even more.and that's a lot of money out there for a good PVP game to take a part from it,that's one.
    the second thing is the availability to mass users GW2 is graphically friendly that's true you can play it on lower pc specs and that's a good thing but the high storage demand is so high for just a PVP lover to download more that 35gb that's hug if i'm just a PVP fun like my self so to overcome all this you need to create a PVP separated application that's not more than 5gb or 7gb max with the free core GW2 and the ability for the players to get the POF and HOT for half price but to get the expansions one at a hole and not get only one, but to only be used for PVP application and in the same time the possibility for the normal GW2 players to play in it normally. and add more 1v1 and 2v2 arena and why not 4v4 or 3v3 and as a fun idea PVP for mounts with flying fights and mounted fighters and races all this with a good marketing and a new name and a shared server world wide and with good partnership with good companies like twitch and to partnership with the PVP players that stream there games and respect the game, or YouTube game channels and with making more PVP tournaments every month to be streamed with low prizes as a starter like 2000 gems and some skins or so, but this need to be officially streamed by ANET and in your place ill just let JEBRO do the commenting .
    i believe if all this happen that's would be great for the game and for us PVP player base .but beware GW2 dev"s for this to succeed you need a separated PVP team that manage the PVP separately from PVE completely and make sure that the guild wars 2 PVP version to be more stable and to remove any common issues that the currant PVP community suffer from, like the unbalanced games when a plat can play against lower gold or silver,or the high burstiness in pvp games just lower a bit the condi and power damage for longer lasting fights especially on the starter of this project so the new pvp players not instantly die to us original players and for a new player its not fun at all and maybe cos him to quite the game. so i hope that you dev's take this on consideration and make it happen the sooner the better as a new MOBA with multi ARENA's and FAST PVP game-play for only the smartest and the greatest PVP players i the world.
    i will share this post on a pvp discussion too , PS: if this succeed i need my share from the big cake lol :D.
    tanks and good luck.

    S A R À B

  • @Zoser.7245 said:

    That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

    >
    well just for you to know the power builds are already bursty a lot, like holo and every other power class. but the community don't talk about power builds because those bursty power builds aren't so useful in games because of the big burst from condi builds and the low health on most power builds so if this next patch nerf the condi a lot then we gonna hear a lot complaining about the power burtiness .
    and about you saying that no need of a brain the manage cleanses if all those players on the forum who complain about condi burtiness including me where good at managing cleanses like ZAN for example who plays HOLO and he is top 5 now there will be no problem cos if you cleans low damaging condi's and after you cleans the high dmg condi burst come then and you left with no condi cleans that would be your mistake for not managing the cleans and this mostly happen to players on low plat and down but the pro gamer's they manage anything mostly.

    S A R À B

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoser.7245 said:
    That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

    Most Power builds have counters. They tend to be able to be focused down, they tend to have low health and/or armour. The same cant be said for most condition builds that in WvW will be bunker built, having to rely on 1 damaging stat and just go with Vit and Toughness for every other stat and the sheer mindless application CONSTANTLY getting hit for 3 or 4 different conditions every 2 seconds isn't a fun thing to play against, take Scourge for example. Currently the only reliable way for most classes to beat them is stay at range. Lock them down and range spam because being in melee is a death sentence even with condition removal, you will never have enough.

  • Zoser.7245Zoser.7245 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    We will always have the doubt of how big the changes will be according to which professions but in summary they could affect more or less like this:

    PVE: Condition builds will be erased from open world due to the ramp up while power builds will erase all trash faster than you can take any profit with a condition build. Hybrid builds with viper, sinister, etc, should still work although they'll be affected too. Raids will only depends of the "benchmarks" mainly... because is what they use as reference, the type of damage required for the boss and add chronomancers (for now) plus a healer if necessary.

    WvW: As unbalanced game mode, this will adapt to the changes, as usual. Big zergs will change the proportion of the Scourges or the needed specialization and will wipe out everything, servers with less population or pairing and typical GvG forced to play the old school style and roamers will change their builds too or probably dust off the old ones that were stored.

    PVP: Should be good if done rightly and keeping an eye on the power burst too, tweaking it if necessary. But if they tune down too much how effective the conditions can be is probable that we suffer the reborn or resurface of the tank meta.

    And positive for those that love to create new builds ;)

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    Sounds good :D

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • Zoser.7245Zoser.7245 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Zoser.7245 said:
    That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

    Most Power builds have counters. They tend to be able to be focused down, they tend to have low health and/or armour. The same cant be said for most condition builds that in WvW will be bunker built, having to rely on 1 damaging stat and just go with Vit and Toughness for every other stat and the sheer mindless application CONSTANTLY getting hit for 3 or 4 different conditions every 2 seconds isn't a fun thing to play against, take Scourge for example. Currently the only reliable way for most classes to beat them is stay at range. Lock them down and range spam because being in melee is a death sentence even with condition removal, you will never have enough.

    Oh, I was writing about it too at the same time as you. Yes, in WvW that is actually a problem. But they don't consider WvW a balanced game mode although sometimes take it in account. Anyhow this upcoming balance should help in WvW as I commented in my last post. But between or against a zerg I can't see that they will affect significantly. But hopefully in other areas of the game inside WvW like GVG, siege, squads, roaming, etc, it should help and be positive for that game mode.
    But they should keep an eye on control power builds and shave/nerf some if necessary too. You should know if you play WvW how the Zerk train works. We'll see.

  • all necros will be switching to power pew pew ranger for vul and high damage ranged dps

  • Dano.2408Dano.2408 Member ✭✭

    @Drinks.2361 said:
    remember that it's not only condi that is a problem in WvW, it's also the boon strip in larger groups that removes any counter a small group might have

    Boon Strip is not an issue in WvW, Boon Corruption is an issue, therefore condi damage is the real issue.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not really, if boon corruption happens first then the fact it is able to happen so often is the problem.

    In that example massive condition damage is the symptom of a balance issue with corruption skills.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
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    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Dano.2408Dano.2408 Member ✭✭

    @ProfCarson.7124 said:
    How about a rework to most of the Engi's base? Engi has been stuck with the same meta builds for years even with the intro of elite specs. Would love to see anything without kits as viable in fracs/raids.

    Holosmith with NO kits is very viable and top dmg in fractal/raids.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dano.2408 said:
    Boon Strip is not an issue in WvW, Boon Corruption is an issue, therefore condi damage is the real issue.

    So all condi builds should be nerfed when the real issue is boon corruption? Also how many specs have access to that at the scale a Necro does?

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    YESSSS is this going to be a move away from "Condition and cc spam wars 2"?

    If so i'am very very happy. It's about time to put conditions on the back burner a bit. When you can be bursted down by conditions in 6 seconds then there is a issue. I love power builds because i feel that it's the more personal way to take someone out compared to 1,000 conditions and run.

    Hopefully this is a fix and not just a small patch to fix the condi issue that is out of control.

  • @nedlee.5943 said:
    How come changing Mutilate Defense helps with "offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone)"? Using energy-expensive, long cooldown elite skills once in a while for a measly 5 seconds of vulnerability is somehow more engaging and helps the gameplay? It is just a straight nerf, especailly with Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning only work with Vulnerability which are minor traits you cannot change at all. Please stop nerfing the revenant, it really doesn't need one, and this trait is used for power builds. Why nerf an underperforming power build in this condi rebalance.

    I am pretty worried that anet thought it was such a great change that should be mentioned as a sign of how things will get better with this patch.

    I pity you, I think they could not have set a better example of how bad things could be in the next patch. It's how to convert a reasonable trait that gives you good sustain often when there isn't a lot of players around you in directly a complete kitten.

    For that reason is always better wait and see the final patch notes. Because all that sound good if it's done properly, could end been a kitten and the complains that favored this balance before the patch, end being a war against what was done.

  • @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    YESSSS is this going to be a move away from "Condition and cc spam wars 2"?

    If so i'am very very happy. It's about time to put conditions on the back burner a bit. When you can be bursted down by conditions in 6 seconds then there is a issue. I love power builds because i feel that it's the more personal way to take someone out compared to 1,000 conditions and run.

    Hopefully this is a fix and not just a small patch to fix the condi issue that is out of control.

    By letting the burst power dominate and be out of control? I wonder how people believe to have the right about what something must be or not. You are expressing perfectly how toxic this forum can be. Thanks for the example.

  • @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    YESSSS is this going to be a move away from "Condition and cc spam wars 2"?

    If so i'am very very happy. It's about time to put conditions on the back burner a bit. When you can be bursted down by conditions in 6 seconds then there is a issue. I love power builds because i feel that it's the more personal way to take someone out compared to 1,000 conditions and run.

    Hopefully this is a fix and not just a small patch to fix the condi issue that is out of control.

    So what you want is Zerk Meta 2: Zerk Harder.

  • Titan.3472Titan.3472 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    You know Anet created the scourge which is pretty much like perma dominator Fire/psy (unresisted damage over time + aoe perma hard controls) was in City of Heroes melting everyone around with 0 risks whatsoever. Back then they finally nerfed it to the ground. So here a video showing the similarity :

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @frickenreesh.7068 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

    What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

    This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

    On the other hand, designing and balancing purely for PvP yields some specs that are absolute trash in PvE due to their main mechanics focusing around mechanics that don't exist in PvE. Boon corrupts, boon strips from scourge/SB are huge parts of their design, and yet are useless in PvE. Scrapper was clearly a PvP oriented spec.

    The balance should never be done for only a single game mode, that's what got us into such an awful state balance wise in the first place. It needs to be done with considerations for all game modes at the same time.

    The easy Fix to this would be to add more boons to npcs across the board from starter zones up, to teach players what boons and corruptions/rips are so as they grow in the game they can learn to fight against them, making their end game content in pvp, wvw or raids/fractals more satisfying to themselves and to their team.

    Oh trust me I agree that this would be a good change to the game period. But that wouldn't suddenly make these specs amazing in PvE due simply to the abysmal rate of attacks on more PvE mobs. It wouldn't fully address this problem. They simply wouldn't be able to re-apply boons quick enough in most instances to make those skills and traits worthwhile in PvE. And if they did, then either the boons would have to be meaningless kitten boons like endless regen or vigor on mobs, or it would be unfair toclasses that don't have easy access to boon corrupts/strips.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bluehydra.6392 said:
    I hope this balance patch is well split between PVE and PvP. Because where as I can understand that the PvP need on condi damage was very much needed, the PvE areas of the game shouldn't be made to suffer because of it.
    Ramp damage is fine, but it heavily reduces condition effectiveness in open world, mob clearing and anything with short phases, potentially eliminating a reason to play them outside from specific bosses in raids.
    Please don't kill PvE condi builds!

    That IS dot idea, you dont do a lot of dmg in short fights, but you scale to ridiculous amounts of dmg over time

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @frickenreesh.7068 said:
    The easy Fix to this would be to add more boons to npcs across the board from starter zones up, to teach players what boons and corruptions/rips are so as they grow in the game they can learn to fight against them, making their end game content in pvp, wvw or raids/fractals more satisfying to themselves and to their team.

    How would that be a fix? Only certain classes can do anything about another class boon spamming, If you're not a Mesmer or Necro (mostly, might be a few more here and there) and you are fighting someone who is boon spamming, likely in a bunker build relying on that good solo spamming of 25stacks of might, protection and such your ONLY option is to counter their boon spamming with boon spamming of your own and it will end up, who can boon spam the most will have the better chance at winning.

    I personally think EVERY class should get access to boon removal or corruption. But flavored for that class and of course not to the levels that Revenant, Mesmer and the biggest boon threat Scourge can do. Just enough to give them a little help against these mindless boon spamming bunker builds.

    Currently your only option if you are not one of the above is to go boon heavy yourself to counter their boon heavy. If all the other classes got some as well, maybe linked to an OFFENSIVE trait line (so they can't get it on defensive lines...) that would then maybe allow other classes to feel like they dont need too be so boon heavy because they will have a way of removing/corrupting/stealing their enemies boons instead.

    Not sure how to fix it in Zerg fights because that is just another level of spam everything you have.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    On top of this balance, we just now need bunker builds to be weak to condi, and strong against power, and support builds to be weak to power based builds, and strong against condi.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    On top of this balance, we just now need bunker builds to be weak to condi, and strong against power, and support builds to be weak to power based builds, and strong against condi.

    For that too happen, Power builds would need to be HEAVILY nerfed and that wont happen. When you can take 20k+ damage in a single hit, when you have Zerk Warriors that have more health, armor and defense than bunker builds able to ignore most damage, conditions and CC that wont happen. Because Warrior even at base, no specs or anything. Just base Warrior has INSANE sustainability, health, Armor, mobility, defense and everything else. Add in the likes of Berserker and Spell breaker makes thing seven worse.

    People go Bunker (and still die...)because Burst damage is out of control. So they have the same issue as condi removal. You can never have enough because the insane damage comes with too short a cool down, that the defensive skills are kinda wasted, why take a 40-50second cool down skill when its a defense against an attack that has like a 10second cool down, easy to land, hard to avoid.

    Power builds: Damage needs to be toned down, with specific focus on certain classes, and abilities.
    Condition builds: Condition application needs to be toned down, defense stats need to be adjusted - maybe decrease Vit/Toughness stats, increase condition damage
    Bunker builds: Less reliant on Boons and passive effects, more reliant on using active skills and defenses

    I would also say that Warrior needs to be looked at with all their blocks, imunnities and everything. If you can run through a zerg and live. It says something. If you have the condition removal and mobility to be able to escape pretty much anyone it says something. They either need their built in class defenses reduced or they need their damage reduced. You shouldnt be able to be bunker while running Zerk gear just because of a few traits you take.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Zoser.7245 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    YESSSS is this going to be a move away from "Condition and cc spam wars 2"?

    If so i'am very very happy. It's about time to put conditions on the back burner a bit. When you can be bursted down by conditions in 6 seconds then there is a issue. I love power builds because i feel that it's the more personal way to take someone out compared to 1,000 conditions and run.

    Hopefully this is a fix and not just a small patch to fix the condi issue that is out of control.

    By letting the burst power dominate and be out of control? I wonder how people believe to have the right about what something must be or not. You are expressing perfectly how toxic this forum can be. Thanks for the example.

    Yeah so no where did i say boost power!. So.. don't know how you got to that conclusion bucko. Apparently you weren't around at gw2 start or even gw1 where condi were not used to insa spike down players. Condi used to be a damage source that was not as it is now. Power and condi builds were everywhere. Now about 95% of players play a condi or hybrid condi build. That just goes to show that the spam is real.

    Power damage can be reduced by tough. But out of control condi can only be dealt with by the very few cleanses most classes have and or high health which some classes lack. I never said that was my right to have it that way bucko so again no idea where your little mind got that from. Condi could be toned down to somewhere in the middle of where condi used to be at gw2 start to the condition and spam wars going on now.

    Right now the game name could be changed to " Condition and cc spam wars 2". After HoT Condi were out of control with the addition of damage every second on confusion and torment. PoF made it worse. Now we need to cut them back a bit. I know you probably are a no skill spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth) then spam spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth), Spam spam kind of player because those are the ones that defend condi the most.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    For that too happen, Power builds would need to be HEAVILY nerfed and that wont happen. When you can take 20k+ damage in a single hit, when you have Zerk Warriors that have more health, armor and defense than bunker builds able to ignore most damage, conditions and CC that wont happen. Because Warrior even at base, no specs or anything. Just base Warrior has INSANE sustainability, health, Armor, mobility, defense and everything else. Add in the likes of Berserker and Spell breaker makes thing seven worse.

    People go Bunker (and still die...)because Burst damage is out of control. So they have the same issue as condi removal. You can never have enough because the insane damage comes with too short a cool down, that the defensive skills are kinda wasted, why take a 40-50second cool down skill when its a defense against an attack that has like a 10second cool down, easy to land, hard to avoid.

    Power builds: Damage needs to be toned down, with specific focus on certain classes, and abilities.
    Condition builds: Condition application needs to be toned down, defense stats need to be adjusted - maybe decrease Vit/Toughness stats, increase condition damage
    Bunker builds: Less reliant on Boons and passive effects, more reliant on using active skills and defenses

    I would also say that Warrior needs to be looked at with all their blocks, imunnities and everything. If you can run through a zerg and live. It says something. If you have the condition removal and mobility to be able to escape pretty much anyone it says something. They either need their built in class defenses reduced or they need their damage reduced. You shouldnt be able to be bunker while running Zerk gear just because of a few traits you take.

    Or boost the effectiveness of the toughness stat to help balance this out. Toughness is not really useful, save letting one survive an attack or more. barely.
    If this was done, then the bunkers could truly be strong against power builds, since toughness will actually prove useful, but still be pretty vulnerable to condis. Healing builds that focus on support can be good against condis, because the small amount of heals and the high frequency of condi clears makes DoT effects almost nullified, but the amount of healing can't stay up to par with power based damaging builds, only very slightly useful against them because of the lower healing values over time.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Or boost the effectiveness of the toughness stat to help balance this out. Toughness is not really useful, save letting one survive an attack or more. barely.
    If this was done, then the bunkers could truly be strong against power builds, since toughness will actually prove useful, but still be pretty vulnerable to condis. Healing builds that focus on support can be good against condis, because the small amount of heals and the high frequency of condi clears makes DoT effects almost nullified, but the amount of healing can't stay up to par with power based damaging builds, only very slightly useful against them because of the lower healing values over time.

    Buffing Toughness wouldn't really help though as they would still have all the boon spamming as well. So i think rather than nerf/buff one aspect. It needs to be more of a give and take. Power builds lose some damage meaning bunker builds wont need to go bunker as much, bunker builds lose some boon spamming (specifically Might!) so they cant go full bunker and still deal damage, Condition builds lose condition damage because well, its broken as hell, maybe leading people to HOPEFULLY go more Rampagers to add some direct damage

    So your idea would be:

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    That wouldnt be so bad, the problem with this, as i mention a few too many classes can be full zerk in damage but still have the defense of bunker builds and what baout those of us that are hybrid? Wouldnt have the bunker to beat power, wouldnt have the power to beat condi and wouldnt have the condi to beat bunker, Though i guess you would have more of the option in your build with trait lines and such. So i guess it could work out but this would take WAY too much for Anet to do, they will do flat nerfs and buffs with their hands over their eyes randomly picking a class then randomly picking "buff" or "nerf" and then picking a weapon that it will affect...

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    Almost.
    -Bunker beats Power
    -Power beats Support
    -Condi beats Bunker
    -Support beats Condi
    -Condi vs Power = depends on skill level, team play, strategy, etc. equal amount of any one thing of this would mean a stalemate.
    With this, bunker builds can be tweaked to not include too much passive condi removal, and if passive condi removal is put on, then that choice would be to lose more of the bunker side and be more of a hybrid, where it will do decently in both areas (support/bunker) but not enough to survive well enough against either. I dunno, throwing out ideas.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    Almost.
    -Bunker beats Power
    -Power beats Support
    -Condi beats Bunker
    -Support beats Condi
    -Condi vs Power = depends on skill level, team play, strategy, etc. equal amount of any one thing of this would mean a stalemate.

    I would disagree with Support beating anyone. Support is support. Its meant to help others with boons, healing and such it shouldnt really be someone that can beat condi builds, most of which are currently Bunker condi builds. Its meant to help others. I would change this to Hybrid. Hybrid would be better as its meant to be okay/good at all things but not the best at anything. Where as Support is meant to be crazy healing, support, boons and such.

    Plus, unless they nerf Scourge boon corruption, no support build will beat a Scourge.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    Almost.
    -Bunker beats Power
    -Power beats Support
    -Condi beats Bunker
    -Support beats Condi
    -Condi vs Power = depends on skill level, team play, strategy, etc. equal amount of any one thing of this would mean a stalemate.

    I would disagree with Support beating anyone. Support is support. Its meant to help others with boons, healing and such it shouldnt really be someone that can beat condi builds, most of which are currently Bunker condi builds. Its meant to help others. I would change this to Hybrid. Hybrid would be better as its meant to be okay/good at all things but not the best at anything. Where as Support is meant to be crazy healing, support, boons and such.

    Plus, unless they nerf Scourge boon corruption, no support build will beat a Scourge.

    There is more than one way to win a fight in gw2. Support should not be able to KILL a condi build. But, the condi build can't kill the support, either, because of heals and passive condi removal traits on top of active condi removal skills, etc. So, beating a build is not necessarily killing it. One can win a fight by successfully holding their own and keeping a node capped in their favor, or keeping it neutral while mitigating, or even eliminating, pressure from the opponent. Which is why i said support beat condi. not support kill condi. I agree with you, that wouldn't make sense since they are supposed to support the team.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There is more than one way to win a fight in gw2. Support should not be able to KILL a condi build. But, the condi build can't kill the support, either, because of heals and passive condi removal traits on top of active condi removal skills, etc. So, beating a build is not necessarily killing it. One can win a fight by successfully holding their own and keeping a node capped in their favor, or keeping it neutral while mitigating, or even eliminating, pressure from the opponent. Which is why i said support beat condi. not support kill condi. I agree with you, that wouldn't make sense since they are supposed to support the team.

    So it wouldnt be Support beating the Condi, it would be the support using everything they have just to not die? Hoping that people will come along to save them? Only the likes of Warrior could really survive the Condi bombing, i mean an Ele can IF they are fully built to counter conditions and spend a LOT of time using certain skills to remove conditions.

    The problem would that would be in WvW when its Zergs and blobs fighting it out. It would still be Condi application Vs Removal. Who ever has the most wins. In a 1 Vs 1 it would be dependent on the class, a Warrior for example has a rather solid time against conditions without needing to really focus too much on the abilities and cool downs, where as, as an ele. I have to use like a million button presses to beat a condi build and that is with me being HEAVILY built against conditions.

    Of course, if the Condi nerf is effective then it could help and would allow build diversity and not such HUGE focus on taking as much condi removal as you can.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭
     > So it wouldnt be Support beating the Condi, it would be the support using everything they have just to not die? 
    

    As stated before. There is more than one way to win a fight. Winning a fight is not killing your opponent. Winning the fight could mean, you just successfully wasted another player's time there for like 3 minutes trying to kill you, and he was unable to. That would not only be a winning fight in your situation, but a stupid mistake on the opponent. And, if the opponent disengages that fight, leaves the node, and joins elsewhere? That fight is your win as well, because you FORCED him/her to leave that fight, seeing it was pointless because that player was never going to kill you to begin with.

    Hoping that people will come along to save them?

    Seems a little smart allick-ish, but I will counter this with a little logic. As stated before, the healing/condi removal would prevent any kind of death. So why would the support need to be saved if he is able to completely halt the progression and ramping up of conditions....? Hence, this would translate to the support's win against condition pressure.

    The problem would that would be in WvW when its Zergs and blobs fighting it out. It would still be Condi application Vs Removal. Who ever has the most wins.

    Not necessarily. In a situation where only condition damage players are playing this is pretty spot on...but since this would be opening up paths of choice between your overall goal and what you want to see out of your build, more power builds and others will be in play as well, so it would come down to strategy, how you manage yourself, as well as your team in said situation, so on and so forth.

    In a 1 Vs 1 it would be dependent on the class, a Warrior for example has a rather solid time against conditions without needing to really focus too much on the

    abilities
    The suggested theme I stated is not looking at specific classes. it's looking at specific builds. A supportive build, on any professions that has options for said kind of build, would be able to deal with conditions, and ultimately trump them as they (should) carry tons of clear and small packets of healing over time, providing burst healing every so often, but not too often. Of course, some professions, as it should be, might be able to do this to a greater degree than others, but that shouldn't mean that all other professions "can't do it well". Other professions that want to run a support build should be able to do it well, while a different professions (ele, guard) should be able to do it EXCEPTIONALLY well. Of course, this would mean tweaking the trait options for the build paths. And any hybrid that comes out of any build should then perform decently, as it is focusing on 2 specific goals. no 2 specific goals should be done so well that it would be impossible to trump (example ele bunker/support, where it takes 3-4 people to kill one other player, not really fair at all.)

    and cool downs, where as, as an ele. I have to use like a million button presses to beat a condi build and that is with me being HEAVILY built against conditions.

    Not sure what ele build you are playing, but all the support tempests I have seen have quite an easy time against condition pressure. To the point where it is almost laughable. As well, they can solidly bunker so killing them is very hard.

    Of course, if the Condi nerf is effective then it could help and would allow build diversity and not such HUGE focus on taking as much condi removal as you can.

    This balance patch is not going to be a condi nerf by any means. It's simply putting condition damage back into the place it should have been since launch: a damage OVER TIME option using damaging conditions and debuffs for your opponent. Note, damage over time does not mean burst 15 stacks of burn on you and lel at your attempts at trying to survive taking 6k damage per second, from an instantaneous application of one condition.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    As stated before. There is more than one way to win a fight. Winning a fight is not killing your opponent. Winning the fight could mean, you just successfully wasted another player's time there for like 3 minutes trying to kill you, and he was unable to. That would not only be a winning fight in your situation, but a stupid mistake on the opponent. And, if the opponent disengages that fight, leaves the node, and joins elsewhere? That fight is your win as well, because you FORCED him/her to leave that fight, seeing it was pointless because that player was never going to kill you to begin with.

    This sounds more like a PvP reasoning, in WvW for the most part wasting someones time for 3 minutes is also wasting your own. It would only really be benefical at camps, towers and such but again you would likely be out numbered quite a lot as towers, camps and such are really taken by 1 person these days :(

    Seems a little smart allick-ish, but I will counter this with a little logic. As stated before, the healing/condi removal would prevent any kind of death. So why would the support need to be saved if he is able to completely halt the progression and ramping up of conditions....? Hence, this would translate to the support's win against condition pressure.

    Well, its true. Your basic idea would be try not to die and hope others come to actually do the killing. Do people actually find this sort of gameplay style fun? Why would he need help? So that he doesnt die and it would be BROKEN if someone was able to totally shut down another build. The Condi build player would STILL need to be able to win. It wouldnt be winning in any sense, it would be a stalemate. Two, very different things. This of course is again coming from WvW viewpoint.

    Not necessarily. In a situation where only condition damage players are playing this is pretty spot on...but since this would be opening up paths of choice between your overall goal and what you want to see out of your build, more power builds and others will be in play as well, so it would come down to strategy, how you manage yourself, as well as your team in said situation, so on and so forth.

    Yeah but you would still have both sides AoE spamming Conditions and AoE spamming boons. You would still need boons to counter the conditions, Boons to counter the CC but then you would need conditions to counter the boons and it would just repeat, we already have that. Where people will just spam ranged at each other with both sides to o scared to actually attack and waiting for others to come along. Until they get to the point they think they can out number the AoE Condition and CC spamming.

    The suggested theme I stated is not looking at specific classes. it's looking at specific builds. A supportive build, on any professions that has options for said kind of build, would be able to deal with conditions, and ultimately trump them as they (should) carry tons of clear and small packets of healing over time, providing burst healing every so often, but not too often. Of course, some professions, as it should be, might be able to do this to a greater degree than others, but that shouldn't mean that all other professions "can't do it well". Other professions that want to run a support build should be able to do it well, while a different professions (ele, guard) should be able to do it EXCEPTIONALLY well. Of course, this would mean tweaking the trait options for the build paths. And any hybrid that comes out of any build should then perform decently, as it is focusing on 2 specific goals. no 2 specific goals should be done so well that it would be impossible to trump (example ele bunker/support, where it takes 3-4 people to kill one other player, not really fair at all.)

    Yeah and that alone would be an issue, there are amny builds that have the support of support builds while having the damage of damage builds all rolled into one without sacrificing anything. A Warrior is a prime example of this due to their top tier health and armor at base, as well as their passive traits that add even more bunker without ever needing to think about getting anything other than Berserker Gear and STILL have more health and armor than most Bunker builds.

    This is why they would have to rebalance a LOT of classes, though it wouldnt be that hard, adjust Warrior defense for a start would help. It would be good for balance (and fighting against them...) if they had to actually BUILD to have defense rather than having it for the sake of being a warrior.

    Not sure what ele build you are playing, but all the support tempests I have seen have quite an easy time against condition pressure. To the point where it is almost laughable. As well, they can solidly bunker so killing them is very hard.

    Well, firstly. PvP is VERY different to WvW the damage in WvW is SO far out of control that its mind blowing that it has gotten to this state. It constant application with insanely high damage. you remove 5, well heres another 5. The damage is SO broken as well. Its constant burst application. With Burst damage every few seconds with very little down time of low/no condi damage being taken for you to be able to go on the offense, this is especially against Scourge where they have an AoE of death around themselves.

    I have killed them in Melee and in Range. The problem is, in Melee they are too HARD to kill but at Range they are too EASY to kill. There is very little in terms of balance. Sure they should be a threat but they shouldnt be a constant never ending threat due to their AoE around themselves and the AoE range spamming of conditions making them a threat at range as well, though as a Soulbeast, rather easy to kill thanks to lock downs, stealth and ranged burst.

    I'm actually playing a Weaver, which i do hope gets some love. Its pretty "okay" but has weak auto attacks, Fire, Air and Earth could do with PROPER defined roles. Like Fire Being Condi based, Air being Direct damage and Earth being Control - Cc, Cripples, Immob, Torment and such. at the moment Fire is a bad Hybrid, Air is okay but still kinda lacking in damage and Earth is kinda trash in condi damage but does offer CC

    This balance patch is not going to be a condi nerf by any means. It's simply putting condition damage back into the place it should have been since launch: a damage OVER TIME option using damaging conditions and debuffs for your opponent. Note, damage over time does not mean burst 15 stacks of burn on you and lel at your attempts at trying to survive taking 6k damage per second, from an instantaneous application of one condition.

    Of course its not going to nerf them into where they need to be, but i would hope that it gets it on the right track which would allow further adjustments in the proper Balance update in January. Conditions need to be less spam, spam, spam and less Burst, Burst, Burst. They have VERY little down time. It needs to be either sustained but low damage or Burst with down time. At the moment its Burst with constant sustain through even more burst.

  • When spellbreaker's invulnerabilities will be nerfed ? Too owerpowered for sPVP mode.

  • This is a multi level issue in all honesty because GW2 seems to spread the table too thin. It all comes down to direct damage vs. damage over time. There are so many Armor stat/build options that the idea of a silver bullet being able to fix any of this is futile at best. The only real fix would mean narrowing not only damage output, but also build options. You would have to decide if a class is going to be based around direct damage or damage over time and build accordingly, but when you have a class that can build for condi, power or support or a combination of those things you will always run into balance issues. Stat options are not that hard to maintain, and all you would have to do is limit which options are available to each kind of armor or class so you can focus on balancing within a more controlled framework. Another thing that could be done is streamline the trait lines available to each class. So if you want to run condi you have specific trait lines that deal with condi instead of having condi and power traits all intermixed creating balance issues.

    If you want to move condi away from the idea of burst then you also have to allow players to maintain it either through stacking the duration or refreshing the duration before it expires. Without that you will be constantly tinkering with numbers always swinging back and forth in an endless attempt to balance. This means that you would also have to be more specific about the number of conditions each condi class has access to. As well as the number of conditions classes can clear. Spewing a shotgun of condi's will again make balance very hard to achieve, and the pure number of different conditions in the game also further compounds this whole issue.

    The staff seems to be so busy chasing symptoms that they never addressing the root cause, and until the balance team starts facing facts and addressing the core issues within the game and abandon this mindset of slapping bandages on the issue it will never be resolved.

    As a whole in what might be seen as an attempt to save money Anet is jumping over dollars to try and save pennies. On balance and many other issues.

  • Poor BM......

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    On top of this balance, we just now need bunker builds to be weak to condi, and strong against power, and support builds to be weak to power based builds, and strong against condi.

    bunker guard actually melt to every one xD, hits from players having 250% crit will melt every one, still some classes can have highter sustain than bunker guard and way more damage and faster hits, that later will need to be tweaked as well, not all classes sacrifice one thing for another. due how the game is designed to carry the players rather than skill and playstyles.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    I know you probably are a no skill spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth) then spam spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth), Spam spam kind of player because those are the ones that defend condi the most.

    You literally described every damage build in the game. Including power builds. Especially power builds, in fact.

    Umm no? Not every build lays 100 conditions down while the toon dances around dodgeing damage then applying 100 more and dance some more. Least with power they have to be up to get damaged because power damage doesnt tick away like condi does. You have to score multiple hits. not just 1 spammy burst and wait.

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