Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update - Page 8 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

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  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bluehydra.6392 said:
    I hope this balance patch is well split between PVE and PvP. Because where as I can understand that the PvP need on condi damage was very much needed, the PvE areas of the game shouldn't be made to suffer because of it.
    Ramp damage is fine, but it heavily reduces condition effectiveness in open world, mob clearing and anything with short phases, potentially eliminating a reason to play them outside from specific bosses in raids.
    Please don't kill PvE condi builds!

    That IS dot idea, you dont do a lot of dmg in short fights, but you scale to ridiculous amounts of dmg over time

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @frickenreesh.7068 said:
    The easy Fix to this would be to add more boons to npcs across the board from starter zones up, to teach players what boons and corruptions/rips are so as they grow in the game they can learn to fight against them, making their end game content in pvp, wvw or raids/fractals more satisfying to themselves and to their team.

    How would that be a fix? Only certain classes can do anything about another class boon spamming, If you're not a Mesmer or Necro (mostly, might be a few more here and there) and you are fighting someone who is boon spamming, likely in a bunker build relying on that good solo spamming of 25stacks of might, protection and such your ONLY option is to counter their boon spamming with boon spamming of your own and it will end up, who can boon spam the most will have the better chance at winning.

    I personally think EVERY class should get access to boon removal or corruption. But flavored for that class and of course not to the levels that Revenant, Mesmer and the biggest boon threat Scourge can do. Just enough to give them a little help against these mindless boon spamming bunker builds.

    Currently your only option if you are not one of the above is to go boon heavy yourself to counter their boon heavy. If all the other classes got some as well, maybe linked to an OFFENSIVE trait line (so they can't get it on defensive lines...) that would then maybe allow other classes to feel like they dont need too be so boon heavy because they will have a way of removing/corrupting/stealing their enemies boons instead.

    Not sure how to fix it in Zerg fights because that is just another level of spam everything you have.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    On top of this balance, we just now need bunker builds to be weak to condi, and strong against power, and support builds to be weak to power based builds, and strong against condi.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    On top of this balance, we just now need bunker builds to be weak to condi, and strong against power, and support builds to be weak to power based builds, and strong against condi.

    For that too happen, Power builds would need to be HEAVILY nerfed and that wont happen. When you can take 20k+ damage in a single hit, when you have Zerk Warriors that have more health, armor and defense than bunker builds able to ignore most damage, conditions and CC that wont happen. Because Warrior even at base, no specs or anything. Just base Warrior has INSANE sustainability, health, Armor, mobility, defense and everything else. Add in the likes of Berserker and Spell breaker makes thing seven worse.

    People go Bunker (and still die...)because Burst damage is out of control. So they have the same issue as condi removal. You can never have enough because the insane damage comes with too short a cool down, that the defensive skills are kinda wasted, why take a 40-50second cool down skill when its a defense against an attack that has like a 10second cool down, easy to land, hard to avoid.

    Power builds: Damage needs to be toned down, with specific focus on certain classes, and abilities.
    Condition builds: Condition application needs to be toned down, defense stats need to be adjusted - maybe decrease Vit/Toughness stats, increase condition damage
    Bunker builds: Less reliant on Boons and passive effects, more reliant on using active skills and defenses

    I would also say that Warrior needs to be looked at with all their blocks, imunnities and everything. If you can run through a zerg and live. It says something. If you have the condition removal and mobility to be able to escape pretty much anyone it says something. They either need their built in class defenses reduced or they need their damage reduced. You shouldnt be able to be bunker while running Zerk gear just because of a few traits you take.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Zoser.7245 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    YESSSS is this going to be a move away from "Condition and cc spam wars 2"?

    If so i'am very very happy. It's about time to put conditions on the back burner a bit. When you can be bursted down by conditions in 6 seconds then there is a issue. I love power builds because i feel that it's the more personal way to take someone out compared to 1,000 conditions and run.

    Hopefully this is a fix and not just a small patch to fix the condi issue that is out of control.

    By letting the burst power dominate and be out of control? I wonder how people believe to have the right about what something must be or not. You are expressing perfectly how toxic this forum can be. Thanks for the example.

    Yeah so no where did i say boost power!. So.. don't know how you got to that conclusion bucko. Apparently you weren't around at gw2 start or even gw1 where condi were not used to insa spike down players. Condi used to be a damage source that was not as it is now. Power and condi builds were everywhere. Now about 95% of players play a condi or hybrid condi build. That just goes to show that the spam is real.

    Power damage can be reduced by tough. But out of control condi can only be dealt with by the very few cleanses most classes have and or high health which some classes lack. I never said that was my right to have it that way bucko so again no idea where your little mind got that from. Condi could be toned down to somewhere in the middle of where condi used to be at gw2 start to the condition and spam wars going on now.

    Right now the game name could be changed to " Condition and cc spam wars 2". After HoT Condi were out of control with the addition of damage every second on confusion and torment. PoF made it worse. Now we need to cut them back a bit. I know you probably are a no skill spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth) then spam spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth), Spam spam kind of player because those are the ones that defend condi the most.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    For that too happen, Power builds would need to be HEAVILY nerfed and that wont happen. When you can take 20k+ damage in a single hit, when you have Zerk Warriors that have more health, armor and defense than bunker builds able to ignore most damage, conditions and CC that wont happen. Because Warrior even at base, no specs or anything. Just base Warrior has INSANE sustainability, health, Armor, mobility, defense and everything else. Add in the likes of Berserker and Spell breaker makes thing seven worse.

    People go Bunker (and still die...)because Burst damage is out of control. So they have the same issue as condi removal. You can never have enough because the insane damage comes with too short a cool down, that the defensive skills are kinda wasted, why take a 40-50second cool down skill when its a defense against an attack that has like a 10second cool down, easy to land, hard to avoid.

    Power builds: Damage needs to be toned down, with specific focus on certain classes, and abilities.
    Condition builds: Condition application needs to be toned down, defense stats need to be adjusted - maybe decrease Vit/Toughness stats, increase condition damage
    Bunker builds: Less reliant on Boons and passive effects, more reliant on using active skills and defenses

    I would also say that Warrior needs to be looked at with all their blocks, imunnities and everything. If you can run through a zerg and live. It says something. If you have the condition removal and mobility to be able to escape pretty much anyone it says something. They either need their built in class defenses reduced or they need their damage reduced. You shouldnt be able to be bunker while running Zerk gear just because of a few traits you take.

    Or boost the effectiveness of the toughness stat to help balance this out. Toughness is not really useful, save letting one survive an attack or more. barely.
    If this was done, then the bunkers could truly be strong against power builds, since toughness will actually prove useful, but still be pretty vulnerable to condis. Healing builds that focus on support can be good against condis, because the small amount of heals and the high frequency of condi clears makes DoT effects almost nullified, but the amount of healing can't stay up to par with power based damaging builds, only very slightly useful against them because of the lower healing values over time.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Or boost the effectiveness of the toughness stat to help balance this out. Toughness is not really useful, save letting one survive an attack or more. barely.
    If this was done, then the bunkers could truly be strong against power builds, since toughness will actually prove useful, but still be pretty vulnerable to condis. Healing builds that focus on support can be good against condis, because the small amount of heals and the high frequency of condi clears makes DoT effects almost nullified, but the amount of healing can't stay up to par with power based damaging builds, only very slightly useful against them because of the lower healing values over time.

    Buffing Toughness wouldn't really help though as they would still have all the boon spamming as well. So i think rather than nerf/buff one aspect. It needs to be more of a give and take. Power builds lose some damage meaning bunker builds wont need to go bunker as much, bunker builds lose some boon spamming (specifically Might!) so they cant go full bunker and still deal damage, Condition builds lose condition damage because well, its broken as hell, maybe leading people to HOPEFULLY go more Rampagers to add some direct damage

    So your idea would be:

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    That wouldnt be so bad, the problem with this, as i mention a few too many classes can be full zerk in damage but still have the defense of bunker builds and what baout those of us that are hybrid? Wouldnt have the bunker to beat power, wouldnt have the power to beat condi and wouldnt have the condi to beat bunker, Though i guess you would have more of the option in your build with trait lines and such. So i guess it could work out but this would take WAY too much for Anet to do, they will do flat nerfs and buffs with their hands over their eyes randomly picking a class then randomly picking "buff" or "nerf" and then picking a weapon that it will affect...

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    Almost.
    -Bunker beats Power
    -Power beats Support
    -Condi beats Bunker
    -Support beats Condi
    -Condi vs Power = depends on skill level, team play, strategy, etc. equal amount of any one thing of this would mean a stalemate.
    With this, bunker builds can be tweaked to not include too much passive condi removal, and if passive condi removal is put on, then that choice would be to lose more of the bunker side and be more of a hybrid, where it will do decently in both areas (support/bunker) but not enough to survive well enough against either. I dunno, throwing out ideas.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    Almost.
    -Bunker beats Power
    -Power beats Support
    -Condi beats Bunker
    -Support beats Condi
    -Condi vs Power = depends on skill level, team play, strategy, etc. equal amount of any one thing of this would mean a stalemate.

    I would disagree with Support beating anyone. Support is support. Its meant to help others with boons, healing and such it shouldnt really be someone that can beat condi builds, most of which are currently Bunker condi builds. Its meant to help others. I would change this to Hybrid. Hybrid would be better as its meant to be okay/good at all things but not the best at anything. Where as Support is meant to be crazy healing, support, boons and such.

    Plus, unless they nerf Scourge boon corruption, no support build will beat a Scourge.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    Bunker Beats Power
    Power Beats Condi
    Condi Beats Bunker

    Almost.
    -Bunker beats Power
    -Power beats Support
    -Condi beats Bunker
    -Support beats Condi
    -Condi vs Power = depends on skill level, team play, strategy, etc. equal amount of any one thing of this would mean a stalemate.

    I would disagree with Support beating anyone. Support is support. Its meant to help others with boons, healing and such it shouldnt really be someone that can beat condi builds, most of which are currently Bunker condi builds. Its meant to help others. I would change this to Hybrid. Hybrid would be better as its meant to be okay/good at all things but not the best at anything. Where as Support is meant to be crazy healing, support, boons and such.

    Plus, unless they nerf Scourge boon corruption, no support build will beat a Scourge.

    There is more than one way to win a fight in gw2. Support should not be able to KILL a condi build. But, the condi build can't kill the support, either, because of heals and passive condi removal traits on top of active condi removal skills, etc. So, beating a build is not necessarily killing it. One can win a fight by successfully holding their own and keeping a node capped in their favor, or keeping it neutral while mitigating, or even eliminating, pressure from the opponent. Which is why i said support beat condi. not support kill condi. I agree with you, that wouldn't make sense since they are supposed to support the team.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There is more than one way to win a fight in gw2. Support should not be able to KILL a condi build. But, the condi build can't kill the support, either, because of heals and passive condi removal traits on top of active condi removal skills, etc. So, beating a build is not necessarily killing it. One can win a fight by successfully holding their own and keeping a node capped in their favor, or keeping it neutral while mitigating, or even eliminating, pressure from the opponent. Which is why i said support beat condi. not support kill condi. I agree with you, that wouldn't make sense since they are supposed to support the team.

    So it wouldnt be Support beating the Condi, it would be the support using everything they have just to not die? Hoping that people will come along to save them? Only the likes of Warrior could really survive the Condi bombing, i mean an Ele can IF they are fully built to counter conditions and spend a LOT of time using certain skills to remove conditions.

    The problem would that would be in WvW when its Zergs and blobs fighting it out. It would still be Condi application Vs Removal. Who ever has the most wins. In a 1 Vs 1 it would be dependent on the class, a Warrior for example has a rather solid time against conditions without needing to really focus too much on the abilities and cool downs, where as, as an ele. I have to use like a million button presses to beat a condi build and that is with me being HEAVILY built against conditions.

    Of course, if the Condi nerf is effective then it could help and would allow build diversity and not such HUGE focus on taking as much condi removal as you can.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭
     > So it wouldnt be Support beating the Condi, it would be the support using everything they have just to not die? 
    

    As stated before. There is more than one way to win a fight. Winning a fight is not killing your opponent. Winning the fight could mean, you just successfully wasted another player's time there for like 3 minutes trying to kill you, and he was unable to. That would not only be a winning fight in your situation, but a stupid mistake on the opponent. And, if the opponent disengages that fight, leaves the node, and joins elsewhere? That fight is your win as well, because you FORCED him/her to leave that fight, seeing it was pointless because that player was never going to kill you to begin with.

    Hoping that people will come along to save them?

    Seems a little smart allick-ish, but I will counter this with a little logic. As stated before, the healing/condi removal would prevent any kind of death. So why would the support need to be saved if he is able to completely halt the progression and ramping up of conditions....? Hence, this would translate to the support's win against condition pressure.

    The problem would that would be in WvW when its Zergs and blobs fighting it out. It would still be Condi application Vs Removal. Who ever has the most wins.

    Not necessarily. In a situation where only condition damage players are playing this is pretty spot on...but since this would be opening up paths of choice between your overall goal and what you want to see out of your build, more power builds and others will be in play as well, so it would come down to strategy, how you manage yourself, as well as your team in said situation, so on and so forth.

    In a 1 Vs 1 it would be dependent on the class, a Warrior for example has a rather solid time against conditions without needing to really focus too much on the

    abilities
    The suggested theme I stated is not looking at specific classes. it's looking at specific builds. A supportive build, on any professions that has options for said kind of build, would be able to deal with conditions, and ultimately trump them as they (should) carry tons of clear and small packets of healing over time, providing burst healing every so often, but not too often. Of course, some professions, as it should be, might be able to do this to a greater degree than others, but that shouldn't mean that all other professions "can't do it well". Other professions that want to run a support build should be able to do it well, while a different professions (ele, guard) should be able to do it EXCEPTIONALLY well. Of course, this would mean tweaking the trait options for the build paths. And any hybrid that comes out of any build should then perform decently, as it is focusing on 2 specific goals. no 2 specific goals should be done so well that it would be impossible to trump (example ele bunker/support, where it takes 3-4 people to kill one other player, not really fair at all.)

    and cool downs, where as, as an ele. I have to use like a million button presses to beat a condi build and that is with me being HEAVILY built against conditions.

    Not sure what ele build you are playing, but all the support tempests I have seen have quite an easy time against condition pressure. To the point where it is almost laughable. As well, they can solidly bunker so killing them is very hard.

    Of course, if the Condi nerf is effective then it could help and would allow build diversity and not such HUGE focus on taking as much condi removal as you can.

    This balance patch is not going to be a condi nerf by any means. It's simply putting condition damage back into the place it should have been since launch: a damage OVER TIME option using damaging conditions and debuffs for your opponent. Note, damage over time does not mean burst 15 stacks of burn on you and lel at your attempts at trying to survive taking 6k damage per second, from an instantaneous application of one condition.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    As stated before. There is more than one way to win a fight. Winning a fight is not killing your opponent. Winning the fight could mean, you just successfully wasted another player's time there for like 3 minutes trying to kill you, and he was unable to. That would not only be a winning fight in your situation, but a stupid mistake on the opponent. And, if the opponent disengages that fight, leaves the node, and joins elsewhere? That fight is your win as well, because you FORCED him/her to leave that fight, seeing it was pointless because that player was never going to kill you to begin with.

    This sounds more like a PvP reasoning, in WvW for the most part wasting someones time for 3 minutes is also wasting your own. It would only really be benefical at camps, towers and such but again you would likely be out numbered quite a lot as towers, camps and such are really taken by 1 person these days :(

    Seems a little smart allick-ish, but I will counter this with a little logic. As stated before, the healing/condi removal would prevent any kind of death. So why would the support need to be saved if he is able to completely halt the progression and ramping up of conditions....? Hence, this would translate to the support's win against condition pressure.

    Well, its true. Your basic idea would be try not to die and hope others come to actually do the killing. Do people actually find this sort of gameplay style fun? Why would he need help? So that he doesnt die and it would be BROKEN if someone was able to totally shut down another build. The Condi build player would STILL need to be able to win. It wouldnt be winning in any sense, it would be a stalemate. Two, very different things. This of course is again coming from WvW viewpoint.

    Not necessarily. In a situation where only condition damage players are playing this is pretty spot on...but since this would be opening up paths of choice between your overall goal and what you want to see out of your build, more power builds and others will be in play as well, so it would come down to strategy, how you manage yourself, as well as your team in said situation, so on and so forth.

    Yeah but you would still have both sides AoE spamming Conditions and AoE spamming boons. You would still need boons to counter the conditions, Boons to counter the CC but then you would need conditions to counter the boons and it would just repeat, we already have that. Where people will just spam ranged at each other with both sides to o scared to actually attack and waiting for others to come along. Until they get to the point they think they can out number the AoE Condition and CC spamming.

    The suggested theme I stated is not looking at specific classes. it's looking at specific builds. A supportive build, on any professions that has options for said kind of build, would be able to deal with conditions, and ultimately trump them as they (should) carry tons of clear and small packets of healing over time, providing burst healing every so often, but not too often. Of course, some professions, as it should be, might be able to do this to a greater degree than others, but that shouldn't mean that all other professions "can't do it well". Other professions that want to run a support build should be able to do it well, while a different professions (ele, guard) should be able to do it EXCEPTIONALLY well. Of course, this would mean tweaking the trait options for the build paths. And any hybrid that comes out of any build should then perform decently, as it is focusing on 2 specific goals. no 2 specific goals should be done so well that it would be impossible to trump (example ele bunker/support, where it takes 3-4 people to kill one other player, not really fair at all.)

    Yeah and that alone would be an issue, there are amny builds that have the support of support builds while having the damage of damage builds all rolled into one without sacrificing anything. A Warrior is a prime example of this due to their top tier health and armor at base, as well as their passive traits that add even more bunker without ever needing to think about getting anything other than Berserker Gear and STILL have more health and armor than most Bunker builds.

    This is why they would have to rebalance a LOT of classes, though it wouldnt be that hard, adjust Warrior defense for a start would help. It would be good for balance (and fighting against them...) if they had to actually BUILD to have defense rather than having it for the sake of being a warrior.

    Not sure what ele build you are playing, but all the support tempests I have seen have quite an easy time against condition pressure. To the point where it is almost laughable. As well, they can solidly bunker so killing them is very hard.

    Well, firstly. PvP is VERY different to WvW the damage in WvW is SO far out of control that its mind blowing that it has gotten to this state. It constant application with insanely high damage. you remove 5, well heres another 5. The damage is SO broken as well. Its constant burst application. With Burst damage every few seconds with very little down time of low/no condi damage being taken for you to be able to go on the offense, this is especially against Scourge where they have an AoE of death around themselves.

    I have killed them in Melee and in Range. The problem is, in Melee they are too HARD to kill but at Range they are too EASY to kill. There is very little in terms of balance. Sure they should be a threat but they shouldnt be a constant never ending threat due to their AoE around themselves and the AoE range spamming of conditions making them a threat at range as well, though as a Soulbeast, rather easy to kill thanks to lock downs, stealth and ranged burst.

    I'm actually playing a Weaver, which i do hope gets some love. Its pretty "okay" but has weak auto attacks, Fire, Air and Earth could do with PROPER defined roles. Like Fire Being Condi based, Air being Direct damage and Earth being Control - Cc, Cripples, Immob, Torment and such. at the moment Fire is a bad Hybrid, Air is okay but still kinda lacking in damage and Earth is kinda trash in condi damage but does offer CC

    This balance patch is not going to be a condi nerf by any means. It's simply putting condition damage back into the place it should have been since launch: a damage OVER TIME option using damaging conditions and debuffs for your opponent. Note, damage over time does not mean burst 15 stacks of burn on you and lel at your attempts at trying to survive taking 6k damage per second, from an instantaneous application of one condition.

    Of course its not going to nerf them into where they need to be, but i would hope that it gets it on the right track which would allow further adjustments in the proper Balance update in January. Conditions need to be less spam, spam, spam and less Burst, Burst, Burst. They have VERY little down time. It needs to be either sustained but low damage or Burst with down time. At the moment its Burst with constant sustain through even more burst.

  • When spellbreaker's invulnerabilities will be nerfed ? Too owerpowered for sPVP mode.

  • This is a multi level issue in all honesty because GW2 seems to spread the table too thin. It all comes down to direct damage vs. damage over time. There are so many Armor stat/build options that the idea of a silver bullet being able to fix any of this is futile at best. The only real fix would mean narrowing not only damage output, but also build options. You would have to decide if a class is going to be based around direct damage or damage over time and build accordingly, but when you have a class that can build for condi, power or support or a combination of those things you will always run into balance issues. Stat options are not that hard to maintain, and all you would have to do is limit which options are available to each kind of armor or class so you can focus on balancing within a more controlled framework. Another thing that could be done is streamline the trait lines available to each class. So if you want to run condi you have specific trait lines that deal with condi instead of having condi and power traits all intermixed creating balance issues.

    If you want to move condi away from the idea of burst then you also have to allow players to maintain it either through stacking the duration or refreshing the duration before it expires. Without that you will be constantly tinkering with numbers always swinging back and forth in an endless attempt to balance. This means that you would also have to be more specific about the number of conditions each condi class has access to. As well as the number of conditions classes can clear. Spewing a shotgun of condi's will again make balance very hard to achieve, and the pure number of different conditions in the game also further compounds this whole issue.

    The staff seems to be so busy chasing symptoms that they never addressing the root cause, and until the balance team starts facing facts and addressing the core issues within the game and abandon this mindset of slapping bandages on the issue it will never be resolved.

    As a whole in what might be seen as an attempt to save money Anet is jumping over dollars to try and save pennies. On balance and many other issues.

  • Poor BM......

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    On top of this balance, we just now need bunker builds to be weak to condi, and strong against power, and support builds to be weak to power based builds, and strong against condi.

    bunker guard actually melt to every one xD, hits from players having 250% crit will melt every one, still some classes can have highter sustain than bunker guard and way more damage and faster hits, that later will need to be tweaked as well, not all classes sacrifice one thing for another. due how the game is designed to carry the players rather than skill and playstyles.

  • @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    I know you probably are a no skill spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth) then spam spam spam, hide from damage (block, evade, invul, dodge, or stealth), Spam spam kind of player because those are the ones that defend condi the most.

    You literally described every damage build in the game. Including power builds. Especially power builds, in fact.

    Umm no? Not every build lays 100 conditions down while the toon dances around dodgeing damage then applying 100 more and dance some more. Least with power they have to be up to get damaged because power damage doesnt tick away like condi does. You have to score multiple hits. not just 1 spammy burst and wait.

  • Is it typical on this forum for the Devs to make an announcement like this and then not respond to any of the comments that follow? That seems like a fairly dysfunctional job description for the Devs. This person is earning a salary and they should respond to most of the comments.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @nedlee.5943 said:
    How come changing Mutilate Defense helps with "offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone)"? Using energy-expensive, long cooldown elite skills once in a while for a measly 5 seconds of vulnerability is somehow more engaging and helps the gameplay? It is just a straight nerf, especailly with Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning only work with Vulnerability which are minor traits you cannot change at all. Please stop nerfing the revenant, it really doesn't need one, and this trait is used for power builds. Why nerf an underperforming power build in this condi rebalance.

    I am pretty worried that anet thought it was such a great change that should be mentioned as a sign of how things will get better with this patch.

    This comment is one everyone should be focused on. No one really cares because hey it's revenant, who plays that kitten anyway, but it is a clear example of how Anet can kitten it all up even harder. Especially in WvW where trailblazer exists and base durations will get buffed next batch.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @nedlee.5943 said:
    How come changing Mutilate Defense helps with "offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone)"? Using energy-expensive, long cooldown elite skills once in a while for a measly 5 seconds of vulnerability is somehow more engaging and helps the gameplay? It is just a straight nerf, especailly with Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning only work with Vulnerability which are minor traits you cannot change at all. Please stop nerfing the revenant, it really doesn't need one, and this trait is used for power builds. Why nerf an underperforming power build in this condi rebalance.

    I am pretty worried that anet thought it was such a great change that should be mentioned as a sign of how things will get better with this patch.

    This comment is one everyone should be focused on. No one really cares because hey it's revenant, who plays that kitten anyway, but it is a clear example of how Anet can kitten it all up even harder. Especially in WvW where trailblazer exists and base durations will get buffed next batch.

    Hmmm so what you’re saying is we need a new stat combo, power, precision, ferocity and expertise so that vuln lasts longer :lol:

    I stand with Mo.

  • Kallist.5917Kallist.5917 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    Ive got a question for you Anet Staff. Are you going to give us a free respec for our gear after this patch, or is respeccing it going to be on us? I ask because I dont see Grieving being a very good option after this patch, with a squishy class now needing to lock the enemy down and play keep away 33% longer. And having just spend hundreds of gold making my Grieving gear, im a bit annoyed at the prospect of already needing to rebuild it. How about in the future you have a little bit of transparency with your community, and give us an idea of where the upcoming patches will be pushing us? You know, like a not kitten company. But then again, anything to sell those gems, right?

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    This balance patch is not going to be a condi nerf by any means. It's simply putting condition damage back into the place it should have been since launch: a damage OVER TIME option using damaging conditions and debuffs for your opponent. Note, damage over time does not mean burst 15 stacks of burn on you and lel at your attempts at trying to survive taking 6k damage per second, from an instantaneous application of one condition.

    Well they would have to fix the issue of disparity in damage between each different type of condition before we can start talking about a damage over time design.

    For example 1 stack of burning does about 4k damage over 8 seconds while torment barely does 2k over 10 seconds or about 3k over 10 seconds if the target is moving the whole duration. I do agree that being able to apply 25 stacks of burning almost instantly needs some sort of adjustment but I do not agree with conditions like Torment seeing the same treatment considering the current numbers.

  • @philosophy.7560 said:
    Is it typical on this forum for the Devs to make an announcement like this and then not respond to any of the comments that follow? That seems like a fairly dysfunctional job description for the Devs. This person is earning a salary and they should respond to most of the comments.

    no, they should not. They are most likely paid to DEVELOP things as a developer, not to engage in conversations with anyone and specially not to respond to bait, entitled or toxic posts.

  • Heika.5403Heika.5403 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Wintersday is coming fellow Tyrians and, during the recent AMA, I made reference to a small balance update and I wished to follow-up to let you know that we're aiming to release that update next Tuesday, 12/12.


    We've heard your frustrations with the burstiness of conditions invalidating power builds across game modes (though for differing reasons in each). Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.

    This small update has primary two foci:

    • Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
      - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
      - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

    • Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone). At small amounts vulnerability doesn’t feel good and adding more vulnerability to something that is capped on it has little value. These changes will offer chances to spike up vulnerability when it is ebbing or encourage new build styles.
      - e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

    As always, we’ll be looking for your feedback once you have had a chance to play with the upcoming changes. We’ll start a post here after December 12th to hear your thoughts, so please prepare your most constructive feedback.

    See you in the lands!

    About WvW, it's really difficult balance that game mode. When our enemy is a lot superior in number in the map we receive a buff... I have the idea that it could be developed a system like that but in the way the dynamic events are, call it scalable balance. An active system that use the game mesh and detect how many players of each team/server are together in zerg, etc, using the cells and flags in the functions, balancing consecuently the areas where players are inside the map to make the combat more equitative and don't let the superiority in number be as deadly. It would take time, even years, but sure it could be used forever, including future games.

    From the PVE perpestive my advice is don't balance it in the way WvW and PvP is. Tweak numbers in the same direction is an error. Actually we have the bigger diversity of professions/specializations in High-End content that we had ever. PVE doesn't need ramp up in the conditions, need tweak power in some professions: ranger/necro/mesmer/warrior/revenant (perhaps thief too) or their specializations to have, at least, a power build relevant. If you only change the conditions in the way you mention, not only tomorrow, in the future, that will kill actual PVE diversity and weaver/dragon hunter/holosmith would fill almost all the spots in high-end content, would dominate them all. The actual meta is mainly hybrid and power, so the power is there and is mainly favored in the design of the game, less specific content.

    Today I've readed a poll about if GW2 should be better without WvW and PvP. Players that visit the forums are more concerned about all games modes. But the majority of players that are PVE players never come to the forum, the ones that buy gems to show their mounts, etc. Do you want them to start coming here against how WvW and PvP negatively affect PVE in their equilibrium?

    I almost do not play PvP so I can not give advice there. The people I know who have played more than me tell me that there are fewer and fewer players in that game mode and partly the fault lies with the community itself because of their behavior.

    Finally, I just hope you make the right decisions and split the game modes properly. It's just an opinion but I hope it helps. Thanks for reading me.

  • Xillllix.3485Xillllix.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:
    Condi burst has become overwhelming not only in # of stacks, but also in # of conditions applied at once. For an example, look no further than scourge condi bomb:

    That's 8 condi applied more or less instantly with no obvious tell to dodge. There's no real way to avoid this other than "don't ever be close to a scourge".

    Lol what a mess. It's a shame considering where the game started back in 2013. It was so much better.

  • Daffan.8924Daffan.8924 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    When is this coming out so I can judge if this game is worth playing any more or not . inb4 delay and 6 more months of guardian/necro jokefest.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daffan.8924 said:
    When is this coming out so I can judge if this game is worth playing any more or not

    If you read the op and not just comments you'd know

  • @Shargon.5412 said:
    When spellbreaker's invulnerabilities will be nerfed ? Too owerpowered for sPVP mode.

    Warrior have been brokenly too invulerable to damage for a LONG time. It wont be fixed. Ever. It's a faceroll class. Most MMOs have them being the starter/easier class. Anet took it a step further and made them a unkillable monster. Just think. They could be FULL Zerk geared and STILL have more health and armor than most bunker builds. Then all the passive and active defense procs, the passive insanely broken sustain which they dont really sacrifice anything for. They ARE over powered. They will stay that way, until the next expansion when they will be nerfed and replaced with an even stronger Warrior spec.

  • @Xillllix.3485 said:
    Lol what a mess. It's a shame considering where the game started back in 2013. It was so much better.

    Anet killed it. They decided to ditch the balance idea and went with the "lets get as many players as possible, who cares if they are good. We will make the balance carry them and they will just keep spending on our beloved gemstore"

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xillllix.3485 said:
    Lol what a mess. It's a shame considering where the game started back in 2013. It was so much better.

    Yeah... no target cap on aoe was so much better...

  • Love the attention to feedback, just please keep them coming. Little updates like these will go a long way in giving us confidence that balance is a top priority.

    Imagine there's no condi

  • Engi is long overdue for some buffs.

    Holosmith is fine as is. At most it needs some QOL improvements.

    Scrapper is in a bad spot. Gyros are a great concept which is poorly implemented. Theyre rather lackluster. Gearing a Scrapper is complicated as it requires so many different stats

    Core engi is in a bad spot. Support engi is a joke. Elixir Gun and MedKit are lackluster

  • @coro.3176 said:
    Condi burst has become overwhelming not only in # of stacks, but also in # of conditions applied at once. For an example, look no further than scourge condi bomb:

    That's 8 condi applied more or less instantly with no obvious tell to dodge. There's no real way to avoid this other than "don't ever be close to a scourge".

    I was the guy that condi bombed you there, and I'd like to note that the bleeding and weakness you received were from boon corruption. Not saying that its easy to counterplay, just that it wasn't only from being near me. It was from having boons and being near me.

    I agree that there is little counterplay to scourge bomb, its the reason we(BAN) run 5-6 scourges in a 15 man composition.
    I'd like to note though that aside from epidemic, this is basically the first time that a full condi spec has been viable in Zerg v Zerg (Its always been good in 1v1).
    WvW has been, and still is, dominated by power builds. If you don't agree, come GvG us with a condi comp.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    @EvilSnowflake.1453 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    Condi burst has become overwhelming not only in # of stacks, but also in # of conditions applied at once. For an example, look no further than scourge condi bomb:

    That's 8 condi applied more or less instantly with no obvious tell to dodge. There's no real way to avoid this other than "don't ever be close to a scourge".

    I was the guy that condi bombed you there, and I'd like to note that the bleeding and weakness you received were from boon corruption. Not saying that its easy to counterplay, just that it wasn't only from being near me. It was from having boons and being near me.

    I agree that there is little counterplay to scourge bomb, its the reason we(BAN) run 5-6 scourges in a 15 man composition.
    I'd like to note though that aside from epidemic, this is basically the first time that a full condi spec has been viable in Zerg v Zerg (Its always been good in 1v1).
    WvW has been, and still is, dominated by power builds. If you don't agree, come GvG us with a condi comp.

    People dont realize that, necro will be corupting your boons,nerf or not....its class mechanic.

    Jokaurene

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @EvilSnowflake.1453 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    Condi burst has become overwhelming not only in # of stacks, but also in # of conditions applied at once. For an example, look no further than scourge condi bomb:

    That's 8 condi applied more or less instantly with no obvious tell to dodge. There's no real way to avoid this other than "don't ever be close to a scourge".

    I was the guy that condi bombed you there, and I'd like to note that the bleeding and weakness you received were from boon corruption. Not saying that its easy to counterplay, just that it wasn't only from being near me. It was from having boons and being near me.

    I agree that there is little counterplay to scourge bomb, its the reason we(BAN) run 5-6 scourges in a 15 man composition.
    I'd like to note though that aside from epidemic, this is basically the first time that a full condi spec has been viable in Zerg v Zerg (Its always been good in 1v1).
    WvW has been, and still is, dominated by power builds. If you don't agree, come GvG us with a condi comp.

    Condi revenant for second half of HoT era... But it had soo much sustain that it could run viper(and it's not even been nerfed yet).

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @EvilSnowflake.1453 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    Condi burst has become overwhelming not only in # of stacks, but also in # of conditions applied at once. For an example, look no further than scourge condi bomb:

    That's 8 condi applied more or less instantly with no obvious tell to dodge. There's no real way to avoid this other than "don't ever be close to a scourge".

    I was the guy that condi bombed you there, and I'd like to note that the bleeding and weakness you received were from boon corruption. Not saying that its easy to counterplay, just that it wasn't only from being near me. It was from having boons and being near me.

    I agree that there is little counterplay to scourge bomb, its the reason we(BAN) run 5-6 scourges in a 15 man composition.
    I'd like to note though that aside from epidemic, this is basically the first time that a full condi spec has been viable in Zerg v Zerg (Its always been good in 1v1).
    WvW has been, and still is, dominated by power builds. If you don't agree, come GvG us with a condi comp.

    People dont realize that, necro will be corupting your boons,nerf or not....its class mechanic.

    And that is precisely what the problem is. It is not the condi application, but the boon corrupt. It needs to go away in favor of a mechanic that is balanced.

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