Balance patch 12/12 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance patch 12/12

Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

Woooooo-hoooooooo!
Source.

<1

Comments

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Razor.6392 said:
    I read "passive invulnerabilities" in the second part I was about to celebrate... ffffffff

    Ooo, that would be goOod, but Quaggan will take patch reducing condi burst with some minor fixes without complaining.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Already seeing another DD nerf to enforce PoF sales.
    I wonder how long will it take until EM sees UC treatment.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

    It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.
    It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

    And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

  • @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

    It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.
    It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

    And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

    Considering the only meta condition specs are Scourge and Mirage, this change will certainly not help the other 7 underperforming condition classes in pvp.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That mutilated defense change will actually be a significant nerf to power rev since you can now just clear the vuln stacks and totally negate the targeted destruction and focused siphoning traits. Fortunately sigil of fallibility still exists which will be mandatory now.

  • santso.9201santso.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    They need to get rid of passive cleanses as well +there are no amulets that would benefit attrition based builds when put against bursty Power builds. And they should make resistance harder to stack.

  • @santso.9201 said:
    They need to get rid of passive cleanses as well +there are no amulets that would benefit attrition based builds when put against bursty Power builds. And they should make resistance harder to stack.

    resistance was only a band aid fix to begin with. 2-4s of resistance is good vs burst condi, less useful against sustain conditions. if the game never moved towards burst condis we would have never needed resistance. sustain conditions require you to manage your cleansing cooldowns, so does it require the other party to manage their condition skills cooldowns.
    the best example in this case would be burn guardian. pre condi stacking patch, burn guard was an attrition spec. post, it became a burst spec. instead of managing your burn cooldowns to have the condition on your target all the time, it became "spam it and hope for a slow reaction to deal 5-10k burst".

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i honestly don't think much gonna change, condi still gonna be strong it just wont melt someone down in a second or two.

    condi still going to be meta and it's still gonna conquer the PvP life of gw2 for a while, IMO some builds might need to be reworked after the update to still be viable for pve/pvp.

  • Cyczer.7834Cyczer.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    Will pve builds for condition really be nerfed after the patch? I mean technically old and new version will deal same damage over the time, expertise will be even more important now and characters with expertise will deal more damage .

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    PvE players love them some Condi builds. I wonder why.....

  • @Morwath.9817 said:
    Woooooo-hoooooooo!
    Source.

    whos the best ? u r! yes u r! the very bestest Quaggan. good boy Quaggan. good boy.

  • @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    That mutilated defense change will actually be a significant nerf to power rev since you can now just clear the vuln stacks and totally negate the targeted destruction and focused siphoning traits. Fortunately sigil of fallibility still exists which will be mandatory now.

    I am actually amazed that of all Condi problems, in a thread where a developer finally talks about our issues with conditions, they talk about power rev and vulnerability application, and about how that vulnerability application was nerfed to the ground. 5 stacks on entering combat, kitten this game.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:
    Woooooo-hoooooooo!
    Source.

    whos the best ? u r! yes u r! the very bestest Quaggan. good boy Quaggan. good boy.

    Wooo-hooo! Quaggan did nothing, but praise him a bit more!

  • @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

  • Furious.2867Furious.2867 Member ✭✭✭

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because the Scourge can still deliver a full menu of conditions. The balance patch will allegedly reduce stacks (intensity) and increase duration. It will kill condi mirage, burn guard, etc....

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with the overall idea. I just dont believe that "strong sustained damage once it has ramped up" can be achieved in 10-15 second fights with out it degenerating into the same thing we have now.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭

    There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

    When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.
    If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

    When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.
    If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

    Ooo, but Quaggan remembers an old tale... Once upon a time, far behind the mountains, in deepest among deep lakes lived small Quaggan community, we had windy day, when HoT alongside with Revenant and viper amulet were released. Since that day, for many months, Krait were torturing little fishy Quaggans with Malyx Viper Revenants, short long story - expertise used to be meta... and any serious kind of condi oriented burst players should be forced to play high risk high reward amulets.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    oh yea ..... hmmm ... nerf on power rev vulnerability ... rly ....kitten RLY its a power build

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arkantos.7460 said:
    oh yea ..... hmmm ... nerf on power rev vulnerability ... rly ....kitten RLY its a power build

    Click on "Source" link in 1st post. Thats what Quaggan would do!

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

    When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.
    If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

    Ooo, but Quaggan remembers an old tale... Once upon a time, far behind the mountains, in deepest among deep lakes lived small Quaggan community, we had windy day, when HoT alongside with Revenant and viper amulet were released. Since that day, for many months, Krait were torturing little fishy Quaggans with Malyx Viper Revenants, short long story - expertise used to be meta... and any serious kind of condi oriented burst players should be forced to play high risk high reward amulets.

    I don't understand how using a high risk high reward amulet is going to solve the issue of the abundant amount of condition cleanse in the game already, nerfing conditions without addressing its counterplay which is complete denial of the skill which power doesn't have to worry about.

    But even in your case and if condition is OP, let me restate 2 Classes use it almost exclusively Mesmers/Necros and they have a near equal power equivalent everyone else is either down the middle or favors power, blanket nerfing condition damage going going to severely hurt multiple specs for 2 classes that aren't op in my opinion. And its going to severely hurt mesmers in all game modes. (maybe not pve)

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • The reason you see the best condi builds apply a whole bunch of condis at once is because there's so much random passive cleanses that everyone has, and a lot of it is AoE. If a Scourge JUST gave you 15 stacks of Torment, and that's all it did, a random passive cleanse or a sigil cleanse would remove its whole burst, so the only way it can reliably deal damage is to apply a bunch of condis at once that act as cover condis. It's just a poop-fest that Anet created for themselves. If condition builds get a nerf, then Firebrand will have to get a huge nerf as well because currently it can delete almost every condi build except Scourge.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    15 chars............

  • Flauvious.6195Flauvious.6195 Member ✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

    It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.
    It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

    And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

    Considering the only meta condition specs are Scourge and Mirage, this change will certainly not help the other 7 underperforming condition classes in pvp.

    Please tell that to every person in my PvP games, they must not have gotten the memo.

  • cgMatt.5162cgMatt.5162 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

    That's a further nerf to an already ineffective power build for Herald (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Targeted_Destruction). This makes it an active application of vuln but Elite skills are costly since if you're going to use them you either wait to build up energy in combat or swap legend and cast it. This will change the order your skills are pressed for an effective burst, probably worse.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Razor.6392 said:
    I read "passive invulnerabilities" in the second part I was about to celebrate... ffffffff

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone). At small amounts vulnerability doesn’t feel good and adding more vulnerability to something that is capped on it has little value. These changes will offer chances to spike up vulnerability when it is ebbing or encourage new build styles.
      - e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

    I think it says vulnerability, not invulnerability. I bolded the text from a quote clip that I took from the source link. It seems that a damage modifying condition is getting some rework for revs.

  • dragonkain.3984dragonkain.3984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Thief
    The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

  • dragonkain.3984dragonkain.3984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that "good spot" for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Added: It is quite funny how necro is supposed to be broken and overpowered in minds of players to be considered "in a good spot" these days, rofl.

    Thief
    The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

  • dragonkain.3984dragonkain.3984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Thief
    The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

    When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.
    If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

    Ooo, but Quaggan remembers an old tale... Once upon a time, far behind the mountains, in deepest among deep lakes lived small Quaggan community, we had windy day, when HoT alongside with Revenant and viper amulet were released. Since that day, for many months, Krait were torturing little fishy Quaggans with Malyx Viper Revenants, short long story - expertise used to be meta... and any serious kind of condi oriented burst players should be forced to play high risk high reward amulets.

    I don't understand how using a high risk high reward amulet is going to solve the issue of the abundant amount of condition cleanse in the game already, nerfing conditions without addressing its counterplay which is complete denial of the skill which power doesn't have to worry about.

    But even in your case and if condition is OP, let me restate 2 Classes use it almost exclusively Mesmers/Necros and they have a near equal power equivalent everyone else is either down the middle or favors power, blanket nerfing condition damage going going to severely hurt multiple specs for 2 classes that aren't op in my opinion.

    Dont know which game you are playing, but it certainly aint gw2.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Then they proceed to win WTS 3 in Cologne with nos on necro which was still pre HOT.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Please show us how it is done, get your team together with an ele and/or rev and win a UGO or a monthly AT, or at least get close to it. There is a reason why these classes see little to no representation at the highest levels.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Then they proceed to win WTS 3 in Cologne with nos on necro which was still pre HOT.

    Right, Quaggan was thinking about Boston, as said before "if we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT". Necromancer wasn't used during EU tournaments (by winning teams) for months.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    Then they proceed to win WTS 3 in Cologne with nos on necro which was still pre HOT.

    Right, Quaggan was thinking about Boston, as said before "if we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT". Necromancer wasn't used during EU tournaments (by winning teams) for months.

    Boston was a strategy victory, not a comp victory. Wasn't until Cologne we learned you just have to rotate away from the Bunker guardian to win.

    North American comps in Vanilla were just much better than EU ones, similar to how EU Mesmer comps were just much better in HoT. Double Ele and Necro were always stronger than Bunker Guards and Mesmers throughout the whole vanilla era, sometimes in each region based on the prominent players there you have separate metas develop.

    But my point is that Necro has always been top tier with the correct team & strategy, every second of every meta since the game's inception as my memory serves. At no point in time could a Necro not be confident going into a world championship, it's a very unique profession.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    Then they proceed to win WTS 3 in Cologne with nos on necro which was still pre HOT.

    Right, Quaggan was thinking about Boston, as said before "if we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT". Necromancer wasn't used during EU tournaments (by winning teams) for months.

    Boston was a strategy victory, not a comp victory. Wasn't until Cologne we learned you just have to rotate away from the Bunker guardian to win.

    North American comps in Vanilla were just much better than EU ones, similar to how EU Mesmer comps were just much better in HoT. Double Ele and Necro were always stronger than Bunker Guards and Mesmers throughout the whole vanilla era, sometimes in each region based on the prominent players there you have separate metas develop.

    But my point is that Necro has always been top tier with the correct team & strategy, every second of every meta since the game's inception as my memory serves. At no point in time could a Necro not be confident going into a world championship, it's a very unique profession.

    Quaggan disagres, EU comps haven't just used Mesmer post HoT, but also pre HoT - Quaggan would like to remind you that 2/3 competitive teams used Mesmers (TCG and 55 monks). Necro would be completly wothless against those Thief+Mesmer setups, thats why Orange Logo played what they played.

  • dragonkain.3984dragonkain.3984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

    Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

    Thief
    The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

  • dragonkain.3984dragonkain.3984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

    Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

    Which is a fancy way of saying that I have know clue what I am talking about but I don't want to give up on this argument.

    Only an id iot would make such conclusion after reading my post.

    Thief
    The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

    Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

    Top players are top, because they usualy know their own classes better than designers, who designed them. They are also top, because they practice for many hours on daily basis and they playtest various builds by trial of an error, slowly tunning them - they are usualy the most dedicated players. Suggesting you know better what is a good build for an Elementalist than Phantaram is a bit.... well Quaggan won't even comment on it.

  • dragonkain.3984dragonkain.3984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

    Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

    Top players are top, because they usualy know their own classes better than designers, who designed them. They are also top, because they practice for many hours on daily basis and they playtest various builds by trial of an error, slowly tunning them - they are usualy the most dedicated players. Suggesting you know better what is a good build for an Elementalist than Phantaram is a bit.... well Quaggan won't even comment on it.

    There are far more reasons why top players are top in a broken matchmaking system that values wins/losses in a TEAM GAME over personal performance with a class. So them being top is not guaranteed to be linked to them being good at build analysis. You won't imagine how many players can reach the top of team-based performance ladder if they will be GIVEN a broken class+build combination into their hands if they had time, patience, mental stability, dedication to play only said class+build. All those factors are not linked to build analysis yet they are among the most common causes that prevent good mechanical players from reaching the top. And no, I don't play or analyze elementalist that much myself, it's one of few classes I usually ignore, but I have seen videos of pepople playing it + did enough playtesting with people I know, who play eles + met some eles in ranked to conclude that elementalist is still very viable with ranged fresh air scepter build. Their burst is still very nice so they can easily win a game if there is no thief or mesmer in game that puts majority of his effort on hunting that elementalist, which is highly possible considering there is no information about player builds when the game first-starts, it is obtained only after the game is in progress already. In case such thief/mesmer has a high % of being present in game ele can just adapt by switching to another class. This very basic analysis was enough to conclude that ele can have his spot in any team, but that pick needs to be made only after examining enemy class and player composition.

    Thief
    The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

    Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

    Top players are top, because they usualy know their own classes better than designers, who designed them. They are also top, because they practice for many hours on daily basis and they playtest various builds by trial of an error, slowly tunning them - they are usualy the most dedicated players. Suggesting you know better what is a good build for an Elementalist than Phantaram is a bit.... well Quaggan won't even comment on it.

    There are far more reasons why top players are top in a broken matchmaking system that values wins/losses in a TEAM GAME over personal performance with a class. So them being top is not guaranteed to be linked to them being good at build analysis. You won't imagine how many players can reach the top of team-based performance ladder if they will be GIVEN a broken class+build combination into their hands if they had time, patience, mental stability, dedication to play only said class+build. All those factors are not linked to build analysis yet they are among the most common causes that prevent good mechanical players from reaching the top. And no, I don't play or analyze elementalist myself, it's one of few classes I ignore, but I have seen videos + did enough playtesting with people I know + met some eles in ranked to conclude that elementalist is still very viable with ranged scepter build. Their burst is still very nice so they can easily win a game if there is no thief or mesmer in game that puts majority of his effort on hunting that elementalist, which is highly possible considering there is no information about player builds when the game first-starts, it is obtained only after the game is in progress already. In case such thief/mesmer would be in game ele can just adapt by switching to another class.

    Quaggan wouldn't use ladderboard standings to consider someone "top player", or "pro player", but achivements in tournament scene, as we're debating viabliting of profession on top level, not winning some random ranked games, but tournaments, e.g. UGO...

  • @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

    Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

    Top players are top, because they usualy know their own classes better than designers, who designed them. They are also top, because they practice for many hours on daily basis and they playtest various builds by trial of an error, slowly tunning them - they are usualy the most dedicated players. Suggesting you know better what is a good build for an Elementalist than Phantaram is a bit.... well Quaggan won't even comment on it.

    There are far more reasons why top players are top in a broken matchmaking system that values wins/losses in a TEAM GAME over personal performance with a class. So them being top is not guaranteed to be linked to them being good at build analysis. You won't imagine how many players can reach the top of team-based performance ladder if they will be GIVEN a broken class+build combination into their hands if they had time, patience, mental stability, dedication to play only said class+build. All those factors are not linked to build analysis yet they are among the most common causes that prevent good mechanical players from reaching the top. And no, I don't play or analyze elementalist myself, it's one of few classes I ignore, but I have seen videos + did enough playtesting with people I know + met some eles in ranked to conclude that elementalist is still very viable with ranged scepter build. Their burst is still very nice so they can easily win a game if there is no thief or mesmer in game that puts majority of his effort on hunting that elementalist, which is highly possible considering there is no information about player builds when the game first-starts, it is obtained only after the game is in progress already. In case such thief/mesmer would be in game ele can just adapt by switching to another class.

    Quaggan wouldn't use ladderboard standings to consider someone "top player", or "pro player", but achivements in tournament scene, as we're debating viabliting of profession on top level, not winning some random ranked games, but tournaments, e.g. UGO...

    Still, my point holds true because it ADDS even more reasons why alot of players can't reach the well-known status of a top competitive player even if they are mechanically and motivationally fit. To name a few : problems finding good teammates, them being too introverted to play in team-based environment, being toxic enough so that they eventually get kicked out of any team they get into. Those are just on top of my head, yet pretty real and common reasons why a perfect player will be ignored by majority's opinion about who's "top"

    Thief
    The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Morwath.9817 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

    All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

    How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat, even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet to balance ele?

    Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

    Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

    Its because you think that good spot for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

    Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

    Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

    Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

    Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

    Top players are top, because they usualy know their own classes better than designers, who designed them. They are also top, because they practice for many hours on daily basis and they playtest various builds by trial of an error, slowly tunning them - they are usualy the most dedicated players. Suggesting you know better what is a good build for an Elementalist than Phantaram is a bit.... well Quaggan won't even comment on it.

    There are far more reasons why top players are top in a broken matchmaking system that values wins/losses in a TEAM GAME over personal performance with a class. So them being top is not guaranteed to be linked to them being good at build analysis. You won't imagine how many players can reach the top of team-based performance ladder if they will be GIVEN a broken class+build combination into their hands if they had time, patience, mental stability, dedication to play only said class+build. All those factors are not linked to build analysis yet they are among the most common causes that prevent good mechanical players from reaching the top. And no, I don't play or analyze elementalist myself, it's one of few classes I ignore, but I have seen videos + did enough playtesting with people I know + met some eles in ranked to conclude that elementalist is still very viable with ranged scepter build. Their burst is still very nice so they can easily win a game if there is no thief or mesmer in game that puts majority of his effort on hunting that elementalist, which is highly possible considering there is no information about player builds when the game first-starts, it is obtained only after the game is in progress already. In case such thief/mesmer would be in game ele can just adapt by switching to another class.

    Quaggan wouldn't use ladderboard standings to consider someone "top player", or "pro player", but achivements in tournament scene, as we're debating viabliting of profession on top level, not winning some random ranked games, but tournaments, e.g. UGO...

    Still, my point holds true because it ADDS even more reasons why alot of players can't reach the well-known status of a top competitive player even if they are mechanically and motivationally fit. To name a few : problems finding good teammates, them being too introverted to play in team-based environment, being toxic enough so that they eventually get kicked out of any team they get into. Those are just on top of my head, yet pretty real and common reasons why a perfect player will be ignored by majority's opinion about who's "top"

    Excuses.

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