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[sPvP] Feedback

Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited December 17, 2017 in Necromancer

Since soon (12/12) we will see minor balance patch focused on reducing condition burst, in this post, I will ignore condition builds, as they are subject to change.

"Core"

I find Death Shroud (core) completly outdated, and would love to see some buffs to it's skills, as for example it would be nice to have instant targeted teleport on Dark Path so it could be also used to disengage, as core Necromancer is lacking any mobility skills Reaper Shroud has (charge), or which are provided by Scrouge punishment skills.

It would be nice to be able to get heals while in Shroud (also Reaper's Shroud), even with reduced amount of healing received, as Scrouge can be healed while using Desert Shroud.

Spite

I think Spite is really in decent condition.

Curses

Same as Spite .

Blood Magic

My main issue with Blood Magic is lack of scaling with Healing Power, which should be main stat fueling this trait line. Some numbers as it's scaling currently:

  • Vampiric - 39 healing (no Healing Power) / 42 healing (Sage, +560 Healing Power) / 45 healing (Mender, +1050 Healing Power)
  • Vampiric Presence - 33 healing (no Healing Power) / 36 healing (Sage, +560 Healing Power) / 38 (Mender, +1050 Healing Power)
  • Life from Death - 939 healing (no Healing Power) / 1,779 healing (Sage, +560 Healing Power) / 2514 (Mender, +1050 Healing Power)
  • Vampiric Rituals - 217 healing (no Healing Power) / 233 healing (Sage, +560 Healing Power) / 248 (Mender, +1050 Healing Power)
  • Transfusion - 337 healing per pulse (no Healing Power) / 505 per pulse (Sage, +560 Healing Power) / 652 (Mender, +1050 Healing Power)
    So, literaly every ability with exception of Life from Death (~100% scaling per +560 Healing Power) and Transfusion (a bit below 100% per +1050 Healing Power) has around 10% per +1050 Healing Power, which is rather sad. I would also to take a moment on Life from Death (read below), which isn't good enough to be adopted by the only "meta" build.

In my opinion Blood Trait line should benefit greatly by investing into Healing Power, it could be step in right direction in allowing Scrouge to fulfil support role. Going back to Life from Death , I would love to see old GM trait, which allowed Shroud #1 to do AoE heal, it could be back in LfD slot, even a little nerfed as small heal with good Healing Power coeficient.

Death

Death is like a can of worms, for a few reasons:

  • It's defensive trait line, which doesn't provide enough defences;
  • It has entire line for weak mechanic - Minions, which are completly useless in PvP, while they could be viable;
  • It has some "good" old stuff ( Reaper's Protection ) from old times when we could mix trait lines and Terrormancer was a thing, but nobody will sacrifice entire trait line for just that one trait.
  • Soul Comprehension isn't rather useful in sPvP.

So, since minions aren't viable, we will leave minion trait alone, because as I believe minion issues have nothing with traits. Lets talk about defensive traits then, for example Shrouded Removal looks pretty decent, but in fact it's bad, just imagine you get condi bombed, so you get multiple conditions at once, how much time it will take you to clear lets say 5 conditions assuming your enemy does nothing in meantime, well 12 seconds in Shroud - it won't gonna happen. For example, Druidic Clarity does full cleanse while entering Celestial Avatar and Stun Breaks and it's on same tier as Shrouded Removal while Celestial Avatar has similar coldown as Death Shround / Reaper Shroud - it would be great to have Shrouded Removal as full cleanse while entering Shroud, would be a good and viable choice, especially for power Reapers who don't benefit much from condi transfers.
Putrid Defense - well it could be a good damage mitigation trait as it is, but I think it would fit more in Curses , would trade mostly likely with Chilling Darkness so Necromancer (points at Reaper) could pick Death for more active defenses.
Reaper's Protection is something that could eat Terror trait from Curses , because both of those are rather weak right now as separate traits and condition build will take Path of Corruption over it anyway, also it could make core Necromancer a bit more viable, if Necromancer could spec for Path of Corruption in Curses and merged Reaper's Protection with Terror in Death and Fear of Death in Soul Reaping .
Corrupter's Fevor - Good trait, similar to Adaptive Armor .
Unholy Sanctuary - It has pretty long CD, for it's weak effect as it doesn't stunbreak. What is more heal per tick is rather pathetic, Necromancer would have to sit 8 seconds in Shroud to get back 1040 Health (without Healing Power), 5 seconds for 1000 Health with Sage (+560 Healing Power), or 4 seconds for 1044 Health with Mender (+1050 Healing Power) as it's scaling poorly.
As cherry on out cake, we have Soul Comprehension as passive, which doesn't do much, maybe if pets would be viable it would be nice, but only for Minion Masters, but for Condi Necros it's useless as it's useless for Power Reapers. I would simply suggest swaping it with a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g .

Going back to Minions, they deserve a little rework - Necromancer should have pet managment UI like Ranger has, with "attack my target" [F1 in case of Ranger], "return to me" [F3 in case of Ranger] and ability to toggle between guard / avoid combat, so it would be easier to manage AI this way. They obviously would need some buffs, as they are outdated, but if any buffs would happen to Minions, they should affect active part of their abilities (activated by player), not passive.

Soul Reaping

Soul Reaping is a backbone to every Necromancer build and it's rather in pretty good position right now. The only trait, which could get some love is Foot in the Grave , as it gives only 1 stack of Stability which makes it completly inferior compared to Warriors Last Stand .

Reaper

Soul Eater (it has 200 tick without Healing Power and 253/tick with +1050 Healing Power) and Blighter's Boon (it has 165/tick without Healing Power and 200/tick with +1050 Healing Power) so those could have a bit better healing power scaling (~30%?), but aside from that I wouldn't touch anything here, maybe reduce Reaper's Shroud degeneration from 5% per second to 4%, as Reaper is supposed to be tanky melee bruiser.

Scrouge

As there are incoming changes to condition damage, I would rather want to talk about non-existent support Scrouge as I believe support traits could get some reworks and/or love as both Abrasive Gift and Desert Empowernent are a bit too weak - overall, Barier granting traits/utilities could have better Healing Power scaling.

Some delay and tells could be added to F2-5 as they are AoE instant casts in order to allow more counterplay.

Comments

  • Emapudapus.1307Emapudapus.1307 Member ✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Morwath.9817 said:
    Since soon (12/12) we will see minor balance patch focused on reducing condition burst, in this post, I will ignore condition builds, as they are subject to change.

    "Core"

    I find Death Shroud (core) completly outdated, and would love to see some buffs to it's skills, as for example it would be nice to have instant targeted teleport on Dark Path so it could be also used to disengage, as core Necromancer is lacking any mobility skills Reaper Shroud has (charge), or which are provided by Scrouge punishment skills.

    Yes it would be supper nice to be teleport (with insta cast ofc), but is it healthy for the game, with so many teleports out there? Other then that, ds needs its cast times and some cd reduced. And ds 4 needs to do more dmg.

    Spite

    I think Spite is really in decent condition.

    It is, except some quality of life improvements, conflicting traits in same line. Ex., in tier 2 you have chill of death which is somewhat burst and utility, and other 2 are sustain. If you build pure dmg you cant take both sustain dmg axe and might, while purpose of both is the same. Also signet passives should work in shroud as baseline.

    Curses

    Same as Spite .

    Chilling darkness: 1s internal cooldown.
    Master of corruption is bad trait design, because it has big cd reduction they had to nerf baseline skill, so without this skill, most corruption spells arent valuable to take (consume condition nerf y.y, supper long plague cd ...), extra condis on you is also bad, specially on heal.
    Parasitic contagion heals too little. Also conflicting with wakening shroud, both doing somewhat similar role, increasing sustain. Possible to move PC in master of corruption place.

    Blood Magic

    My main issue with Blood Magic is lack of scaling with Healing Power...>

    Could be nice.

    Death magic:
    Armoured shroud and Beyond the veil merged.
    Putrid defense: Fear also inflict poison.
    Flesh of the master: Its only minions trait, it does the same + reduces cd of minion active skills and increase skill dmg.
    Necromantic corruption: removed.
    Reaper protection: cd greatly reduced (20s?). And you are immune to landed cc.
    Unholy sanctuary: healing increased, + out of combat it regenerates life force to 5-10%.
    Corrupter fervor: at10 stacks cc on you is reduced by 50%
    New minor trait: hitting poisoned target summon jagged horror, which does small dmg and bleed. Maximum 2 at same time. (even if you dont take minions, death nova would be valuable)

    Reaper:
    internal cooldown of chilling victory to 1s.

    General:
    Since scourage can be healed trough barrier, its obvious that core/reaper can be healed trough shroud (now that it also have faster degen), maybe start with 50% healing reduction?
    Some spells little more cd reduction.

    Just my wishes/opinion on stuff :).

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    I honestly think, that "free" teleport in core Shroud would be completly fair, as going core already means not having access to much better Reaper's Shroud , or clearly amazing Scrouge package. Also, every other light armored class has access to a blink, they have to sacrifice utility slot for it, but they don't have to kitten themselves so much ignoring elite specializations.

    About your QoL ideas for Spite and Curses , I don't think we should ask about fixes for tratlines, which have so many good choices, as much less viable lines like Blood Magic and Death could take some work. I would agree that QoL changes would be nice, but they aren't really that important. However two things you mentioned are really interesing:

    • Master of Corruption could get some love, as Punishments skills are clearly superior to Corruptions .
    • Parasitic Contagion could be stronger, but it doesn't fit Curses at all, this trait could be good in Blood Magic , as it's about draining life from enemies (like ** Vampiric** , Vampiric Presence and Vampiric Rituals or Transfusion ).
  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    teeheehee you said scrouge.

  • MethaneGas.8357MethaneGas.8357 Member ✭✭
    edited December 13, 2017

    @Morwath.9817 said:
    I honestly think, that "free" teleport in core Shroud would be completly fair, as going core already means not having access to much better Reaper's Shroud , or clearly amazing Scrouge package. Also, every other light armored class has access to a blink, they have to sacrifice utility slot for it, but they don't have to kitten themselves so much ignoring elite specializations.

    About your QoL ideas for Spite and Curses , I don't think we should ask about fixes for tratlines, which have so many good choices, as much less viable lines like Blood Magic and Death could take some work. I would agree that QoL changes would be nice, but they aren't really that important. However two things you mentioned are really interesing:

    • Master of Corruption could get some love, as Punishments skills are clearly superior to Corruptions .
    • Parasitic Contagion could be stronger, but it doesn't fit Curses at all, this trait could be good in Blood Magic , as it's about draining life from enemies (like ** Vampiric** , Vampiric Presence and Vampiric Rituals or Transfusion ).

    I agree 100% that by now, core Necro needs a LOT of love. When compared to Scourge and Repaer, core Necro has a much weaker shroud #3, much weaker shroud #4 and arguably, its F2 is being out-shined now as well. Making Dark Path a ground targeted teleport would be a really, really good change, and I agree it wouldn't be over the top - not when you look at Reaper and Scourge. Hell, even make it AoE so it applies bleed to everyone and not just your target, and applies Path of Corruption to everyone. A change like that would be so good >.< cuz right now core Necro is pitiful, at least in teamfights. I played it lots in ranked before PoF and I'd say that back then, it worked okay, but now it just doesn't, not with Scourge and Firebrand there.

    I think Parasitic Contagion does kinda fit into Curses. Sure, it's defensive, but if you put it in Blood or Death, those traitlines aren't condi based, so your condi output/dmg would be weaker = less heals. I think that Parasitic Contagion definitively needs an upgrade tho, and needs a split from WvW/PvE and sPvP. Either increase its healing in sPvP or make it so that your condis deal 10% more damage, which you get as healing. It used to be good when Scourge was broken a few months ago with the insane damage (surprised no one took this trait back then...) but now in sPvP it's .... -_-

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    hmmmm just hmmm i really need to think on these ideas a bit more before i say anything i feel like i need time to digest some of your suggestions to core before i can really write my thoughts on your thoughts. Most of what you do say does sound pretty good though.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    arguably, it's F2 is being out-shined now as well.

    I'd love to read the whole argumentation about how Dark path is or not outshined by the scourge F2.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My thoughts

    • Blood magic
      My only real issue is with blood magic it should just out right be a damage modifier in how it works. Currently it just sucks lets be realistic. It fails as a damage modifier substitute which is some what how anet looks at it as well as a support filler. IF the leeching damage was a % of actually damage being delt along with that same % providing healing then it would be true life steal. We dont even need it to be a huge % for it to be viable either. But trying to scale a life stealing component on healing power is just overall a bad choice even more so when it scales so poorly.
      Change vampuric to be 3-5% of critical damage as bonus leech damage and (a selfish heal for the necro)
      Ideally deal a crit of 1k (proc vamp 3% value) deal bonus damage for 30 & heal for 30 this sound similar to the base of the trait now but those who invest in power builds for example or just overall builds that crit harder criting for 3-4k is rewared with bonus dps of 90 -120 damage and healing rather than still getting the same 30ish hp back.
      Make vampiric presence something like 1-2% based all out going damage in general doing the same effect. This way the more you invest in power the more overall dps you can provide as well as the more healing you can benefit at the same time without having to go into odd builds like healing power on a necro :/ when you likely wont run any other real tools that benefit form it as well. The reason vampuric should only benifit from critical damage is because condition dealers already have a tool that leeches hp for them(though it could be a bit stronger) that said if they want to make the most of it they must pretty much be pure glass.

    • Corruption skills
      Yes please these things need some much needed love to be more synergetic with just about any or everything.

    Core shroud

    Kite and chase potential
    This could use a little boost and speed of shadows could help provide that with 3 seconds of super speed? (ok i admit this one is a bit of a stretch)

    The teleport on dark path seems good.
    How ever i dont know about making it a free blink tool only for disengage. Currently its one of the best tracking projectiles in the game imo especially for how slow it is. The only other projectile necro has that matches it in tracking power is life blast which at times will do full on 180 degree turns to hit the target.
    I think if they make some proper changes to things like foot in the grave and other core shroud skills the need for disengage wont be needed. I dislike the idea of thinking of a skill with offensive properties to be used for pure disengage when thats usually not the point of going into shroud in the first place. (hints the nerf to ele's ride the lighting a long time ago) If it worked similar to the new mirage blink (assuming you still get the unblock able chill and bleed at that targeted spot) I could see it being a decent thing. I would rather look at shroud tools as offensive tools as most of them currently are built as offensive tools.

    Attach a condition to shroud skill 4 and make it faster or give it stability
    celestial avatar has stability on alot of its strong dps'ing skills so that they wont be interrupted as easily.

    Make life blast fire faster
    Ideally make unyielding blast trait turn this into plague blast (the underwater skill)
    Selecting this trait would
    Lower raw the damage by 20% (traid off fro the increased rait of fire and other benfitits, a classic necro theme)
    Reduce cast time by 50% 1 second > 1/2 second (same as plague blast) (per haps this part does half or nothing for reaper 50% of the cast on reaper autos would be insane)
    xfer one condition per blast on the first target that the blast hits wit ha 2second icd (This keeps reaper from being able to abuse it on every swing of an auto attack)

    Shroud skill 3 could use charges at least 2
    Anet give core some sweet use of that ammo system. 2 charges with the same cooldown time but perhaps a 3 second gap between uses to prevent double casting.

    Finally
    Change the condition applied on shroud skill 5
    This is just an idea but the current condition even for non condition builds make no sense Torment into immobilize is bad design it prevents the max potential of the torment from being used.

  • MethaneGas.8357MethaneGas.8357 Member ✭✭
    edited December 13, 2017

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    arguably, it's F2 is being out-shined now as well.

    I'd love to read the whole argumentation about how Dark path is or not outshined by the scourge F2.

    I'm not sure if there's actually a good debate on Scourge F2 vs. Dark Path. But from a personal opinion...
    The "pros" of Dark Path when compared to Scourge F2 is that it's a teleport that enables you to stick to the target better because it puts you right there in melee range from whoever you're focusing (kinda bad in teamfights though because it can put you in a nasty spot where you don't want to be). It also applies a nice chill and is unblockable. Scourge F2 doesn't teleport you and doesn't really enable you to stick to your target as well as Dark Path does. It's also blockable, and I'd say in those areas, Scourge F2 is weaker can be considered weaker.

    The "cons" of Dark Path is that it's a single target attack (only the chill is AoE around your target, not the bleed), it's also a single target boon corrupt with Path of Corruption, and it causes no burns (e.g. Dhuumfire, Demonic Lore) and I'd say it does overall less damage . It also has a cast time and has a longer cooldown than Scourge F2. On the other hand, there's too many ways in which Scourge F2 is better. Scourge F2 converts two condis on you and allies (lol) into boons, it's an AoE skill instead of single target and its area is very large with Sand Savant, it causes AoE corrupts with Path of Corruption, it causes overall more damage from burns (Dhuumfire and potentially Demonic Lore), has a lower cooldown and no cast time, and can be used while you're CCed.

    So overall, I'd say that Scourge F2 is just much, much better. Dark Path (and core Necro in general) WAS doable with just Reaper being there, but with Scourge around, it's no contest...

    @ZDragon - I like your suggestions for core shroud skills.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MethaneGas.8357 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    arguably, it's F2 is being out-shined now as well.

    I'd love to read the whole argumentation about how Dark path is or not outshined by the scourge F2.

    I'm not sure if there's actually a good debate on Scourge F2 vs. Dark Path. But from a personal opinion...
    The "pros" of Dark Path when compared to Scourge F2 is that it's a teleport that enables you to stick to the target better because it puts you right there in melee range from whoever you're focusing (kinda bad in teamfights though because it can put you in a nasty spot where you don't want to be). It also applies a nice chill and is unblockable. Scourge F2 doesn't teleport you and doesn't really enable you to stick to your target as well as Dark Path does. It's also blockable, and I'd say in those areas, Scourge F2 is weaker can be considered weaker.

    The "cons" of Dark Path is that it's a single target attack (only the chill is AoE around your target, not the bleed), it's also a single target boon corrupt with Path of Corruption, and it causes no burns (e.g. Dhuumfire, Demonic Lore) and I'd say it does overall less damage . It also has a cast time and has a longer cooldown than Scourge F2. On the other hand, there's too many ways in which Scourge F2 is better. Scourge F2 converts two condis on you and allies (lol) into boons, it's an AoE skill instead of single target and its area is very large with Sand Savant, it causes AoE corrupts with Path of Corruption, it causes overall more damage from burns (Dhuumfire and potentially Demonic Lore), has a lower cooldown and no cast time, and can be used while you're CCed.

    So overall, I'd say that Scourge F2 is just much, much better. Dark Path (and core Necro in general) WAS doable with just Reaper being there, but with Scourge around, it's no contest...

    Ah then we think the same thing ;)
    It was difficult for me to think that dark path could even contend against an instant skill with a short cool down that reliably do it's job. When I imagine that core necro traits that affect shroud skills were balanced around the core shroud skill, it make me cringe.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017

    Well, we got some QoL changes for Spite (12/12), yet nothing important was changed, so I guess I will just shamelessly bump.

    @Emapudapus.1307

    Thing I've forgot respond to - yes, both Shroud and Reaper's Shroud should allow healing.
    Nothing is more annoying when you're on Tempest/Druid/Firebrand than Reaper going into Shroud when you overload water/go CA/F2 tome to save his poor soul.

    @MethaneGas.8357 said:

    I think Parasitic Contagion does kinda fit into Curses. Sure, it's defensive, but if you put it in Blood or Death, those traitlines aren't condi based, so your condi output/dmg would be weaker = less heals. I think that Parasitic Contagion definitively needs an upgrade tho, and needs a split from WvW/PvE and sPvP. Either increase its healing in sPvP or make it so that your condis deal 10% more damage, which you get as healing. It used to be good when Scourge was broken a few months ago with the insane damage (surprised no one took this trait back then...) but now in sPvP it's .... -_-

    Yeah, Death and Blood Magic aren't condi based, but it could be reworked to affect all kind of damage, if it would be moved to Blood Magic.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    • Blood magic
      My only real issue is with blood magic it should just out right be a damage modifier in how it works. Currently it just sucks lets be realistic. It fails as a damage modifier substitute which is some what how anet looks at it as well as a support filler. IF the leeching damage was a % of actually damage being delt along with that same % providing healing then it would be true life steal. We dont even need it to be a huge % for it to be viable either. But trying to scale a life stealing component on healing power is just overall a bad choice even more so when it scales so poorly.
      Change vampuric to be 3-5% of critical damage as bonus leech damage and (a selfish heal for the necro)
      Ideally deal a crit of 1k (proc vamp 3% value) deal bonus damage for 30 & heal for 30 this sound similar to the base of the trait now but those who invest in power builds for example or just overall builds that crit harder criting for 3-4k is rewared with bonus dps of 90 -120 damage and healing rather than still getting the same 30ish hp back.
      Make vampiric presence something like 1-2% based all out going damage in general doing the same effect. This way the more you invest in power the more overall dps you can provide as well as the more healing you can benefit at the same time without having to go into odd builds like healing power on a necro :/ when you likely wont run any other real tools that benefit form it as well. The reason vampuric should only benifit from critical damage is because condition dealers already have a tool that leeches hp for them(though it could be a bit stronger) that said if they want to make the most of it they must pretty much be pure glass.

    Well, Blood is supposed to be support line. We're supposed to pick different trait lines for damage - Curses (condition), Spite (power), Soul Reaping (both).

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The teleport on dark path seems good.
    How ever i dont know about making it a free blink tool only for disengage.

    I think it should be ground target teleport for disengage/kiting potential, as core Necromancer is way too stationary in age of Spellbreakers, S/d Thieves, Mirages, and Druids who run across half map in seconds.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Attach a condition to shroud skill 4 and make it faster or give it stability
    celestial avatar has stability on alot of its strong dps'ing skills so that they wont be interrupted as easily.

    Celestial Avatar has only one damage dealing skill (#5), as #1 is heal, #2 is cleanse, #3 is AoE heal with Daze and #4 is channeled heal. However, yes some stability on Core Shroud would be nice to have.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Shroud skill 3 could use charges at least 2
    Anet give core some sweet use of that ammo system. 2 charges with the same cooldown time but perhaps a 3 second gap between uses to prevent double casting.

    I like idea of charge system, but I don't think we need more Fears. I'd rather see some Fear traits merged as I've said in orginal post.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Change the condition applied on shroud skill 5
    This is just an idea but the current condition even for non condition builds make no sense Torment into immobilize is bad design it prevents the max potential of the torment from being used.

    I agree. Torment into Immobilize doesn't make much sense.

  • Morwath.9817Morwath.9817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What I found while playing Core is that any other elite skill than elite specialization ones ( "Chill the the Bones!" and "Ghastly Breach" ) are rather useless. In so many games, I found Plaguelands and/or Lich Form barely doing anything, Flesh Golem is simply beyond bad.

    Plaguelands - barely does anything for it's cast time and coldown as it's inferior static "Ghastly Breach" with longer cast time and coldown. Honestly, I would like it to be turned into non-elite utility skill as it's complete disgrace or see it buffed somehow, because if I could put any non-elite utility in it's slot, it would probably outperform Plaguelands . Sometimes I think that Corrupt Boon could be perfect strong corruption elite on low CD...

    Lich Form - while I know it can be nice in team fights it's rather meh for most Necromancer builds as it does apply any damaging conditions and for power builds it doesn't have much more damage than core Shroud.

    Flesh Golem - dies to anything, even when ignored, deals damage like wet noodle (600 dmg regular hits, 1k crits) . Some buffs would be nice or total rework, because it's not even close to Ranger Pet, even if we would go Death with pet traits.

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