On balance

This is not a thread to discuss what's "broken" or "OP" or even "in need of buffs". We know there are many things like this. And there are many other threads to discuss those specifics.

This thread is a call to the PvP devs to meet up with the balance team. Or, if this is impossible, to explain to us why this is.

While the discussion this week was undoubtedly productive... EVERY thread had a statement from the pvp team 'that balance was not to be discussed'

Considering the current levels of stagnation in pvp, and the cacophony of cries of imbalance... Locking out this portion of the discussion simply adds salt to a heavily salted wound.

If you agree, simply post "Agree" and thumbs up this post. I want to get the devs attention. Not fight with other players about this.

Ooo, but there is no reason to discuss balance in Quaggan humble opinion, as we will get a balancing patch within three moons.

@Morwath.9817, PVP dev's talked about the gamemodes as something to be discussed, wich and where class design and balance itself get heavy on this kind of decisions, u cant design some pvp gamemode if classes do not fit for it OR are to much.

For example.pvp dev's cant create 10 VS 10 gvg system cause that would lead to who stacks more AOE DPS spam and faster and reached the other lords, classeswould have to be tweaked for it wich is where the balance team enters to FIX/CHANGE/IMPROVE the class design and its skill to a decent gamewide confort.

BTW Morwath.9817, the balance patch....has nothing to do with pvp.....

@Aeolus.3615 said:@Morwath.9817, PVP dev's talked about the gamemodes as something to be discussed, wich and where class design and balance itself get heavy on this kind of decisions, u cant design some pvp gamemode if classes do not fit for it OR are to much.

For example.pvp dev's cant create 10 VS 10 gvg system cause that would lead to who stacks more AOE DPS spam and faster and reached the other lords, classeswould have to be tweaked for it wich is where the balance team enters to FIX/CHANGE/IMPROVE the class design and its skill to a decent gamewide confort.

BTW Morwath.9817, the balance patch....has nothing to do with pvp.....

In Quaggan opinion, denial is strong in this one. It was said, we won't talk now about balance, as we will talk with sPvP team now, which is working on stuff which we had chat about. Irenio said in ["Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update"](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update/p1 ""Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update"") that balancing team will post "here" (read: profession subforum) and they will look for constructive feedback after patch will go live, as we can assume it will be similar to the "event" we just had in PvP forums.

I guess that now change things a little bit, but still... im on denial.. i actually am.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:This thread is a call to the PvP devs to meet up with the balance team. Or, if this is impossible, to explain to us why this is.

While the discussion this week was undoubtedly productive... EVERY thread had a statement from the pvp team 'that balance was not to be discussed'

Considering the current levels of stagnation in pvp, and the cacophony of cries of imbalance... Locking out this portion of the discussion simply adds salt to a heavily salted wound.

The PvP team said that they do interact with the balance team and the balance team said they do read the PvP forums. So the problem isn't from a complete lack of communication as you're implying.The real questions should be:

1. Does the balance team have a good understanding of the problems in PvP?
2. Is the balance team willing to fix the problems in PvP?
3. Is the balance team capable of adequately fixing the problems?

I'm inclined to believe the problem is #1, and it's not for lack of trying. My reasoning for that is the continued problems with PvE balance: condition vs. power damage fiasco, chronomancer being heavily favored in raids for so long, etc.

The issue I think is transparency.

When you open the door to discuss changes the players want, but close the conversation on some of the most important parts of the discussion... It becomes frustrating. Especially considering that the pvp team's attitude on the balance is 'above our pay grade' or 'not our problem'.

It's a bit like when you go to a store, and the minimum wage guy you're talking to has to go get another minimum wage guy to solve your issue, who seems totally the same, and your left wondering "exactly why was the first guy not enough?"

This problem is magnified when one team is openly asking for feedback... And we are left to trust that the 'historically least transparent team' will eventually talk to us about thier plans.

So I'm asking the pvp team to explain thier relationship to the balance team, because if we understand the 'WHY' of what they do... It's bunch harder to get upset at the lack of transparency.

@Exedore.6320 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:This thread is a call to the PvP devs to meet up with the balance team. Or, if this is impossible, to explain to us why this is.

While the discussion this week was undoubtedly productive... EVERY thread had a statement from the pvp team 'that balance was not to be discussed'

Considering the current levels of stagnation in pvp, and the cacophony of cries of imbalance... Locking out this portion of the discussion simply adds salt to a heavily salted wound.

1. Does the balance team have a good understanding of the problems in PvP?
2. Is the balance team willing to fix the problems in PvP?
3. Is the balance team capable of adequately fixing the problems?

Pretty sure the interaction is the PvP team presenting their issues and concerns to the Balance team only to have the balance team do whatever the fuck they want.

This is apparent b/c the PvP team had to take steps and tell us they are removing amulets b/c they aren't allowed to balance the game. They literally said on these forums they can't make balance changes they can only add/remove amulets.

This is NOT about the Balance team not knowing b/c the PvP team is TELLING them what is wrong. This is about nothing more than Ego's. Read the glass door feedback about working for Anet.

Do you remember watching the HoT class reveals? How many times did Karl say we added this b/c we thought this be cool? No that's NOT what you do in a PvP game. It only leads to imbalance and wtf happened? Imbalance!

@"Jinks.2057" said:Do you remember watching the HoT class reveals? How many times did Karl say we added this b/c we thought this be cool? No that's NOT what you do in a PvP game. It only leads to imbalance and kitten happened? Imbalance!Coming up with cool things is a good portion of game design. Where ANet falls flat is prototyping and then asking "Is playing it as fun as it seemed in my head?" and "Is it fun to play against?" Dragonhunter was a clear example of those two questions not being asked.

@Exedore.6320 said:

@"Jinks.2057" said:Do you remember watching the HoT class reveals? How many times did Karl say we added this b/c we thought this be cool? No that's NOT what you do in a PvP game. It only leads to imbalance and kitten happened? Imbalance!Coming up with cool things is a good portion of game design. Where ANet falls flat is prototyping and then asking "Is playing it as fun as it seemed in my head?" and "Is it fun to play against?" Dragonhunter was a clear example of those two questions not being asked.

Phase Traversal on release?

That has zero to do with fun & not fun and everything to do with something "cool" that was OP AF. Game balance does not correlate with fun & not fun.

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:Do you remember watching the HoT class reveals? How many times did Karl say we added this b/c we thought this be cool? No that's NOT what you do in a PvP game. It only leads to imbalance and kitten happened? Imbalance!Coming up with cool things is a good portion of game design. Where ANet falls flat is prototyping and then asking "Is playing it as fun as it seemed in my head?" and "Is it fun to play against?" Dragonhunter was a clear example of those two questions not being asked.

That's where the last question, "Is it fun to play against?" comes into play. The idea may be cool and fun to play, but if it's really frustrating to play against, you either have to re-work it to fix that problem or shelve it.

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:Do you remember watching the HoT class reveals? How many times did Karl say we added this b/c we thought this be cool? No that's NOT what you do in a PvP game. It only leads to imbalance and kitten happened? Imbalance!Coming up with cool things is a good portion of game design. Where ANet falls flat is prototyping and then asking "Is playing it as fun as it seemed in my head?" and "Is it fun to play against?" Dragonhunter was a clear example of those two questions not being asked.

Your idea falls flat in terms of something like stealth.

Lots of people say its not fun to play against, but in reality is completely balanced.

See the problem is something being fun is subjective; where as, something being overpowered is factual. Can something you deem not fun to play against be OP? Yes, but everything not fun to play against isn't always OP or not fun to play against to everyone.

Do you get it now?

Here's another example:

I assume you main Guardian. DH was for all intents and purposes balanced in the grand scope of things in PvP, but was perhaps the least fun to play against. Under your view they should have deleted DH b/c it wasn't fun for people. Now it had some imbalances in low elo games, and was consequently nerfed a little bit. Yet still remains very boring and not fun to play against.

Got it?

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:Do you remember watching the HoT class reveals? How many times did Karl say we added this b/c we thought this be cool? No that's NOT what you do in a PvP game. It only leads to imbalance and kitten happened? Imbalance!Coming up with cool things is a good portion of game design. Where ANet falls flat is prototyping and then asking "Is playing it as fun as it seemed in my head?" and "Is it fun to play against?" Dragonhunter was a clear example of those two questions not being asked.

He mentioned game design, not game balance. Although they can influence each other, they are not the same thing. A game where every class was identical would have perfect balance, however its design would be lacking significantly.