MMR: 25 might = 1 dodge..

Might makes right: 25 might gives you 1 dodge .Maby 5 endurane per might was too high.. ( 2,5 dodge for 25 might) but why not lowering it first to 3 per might? Thats 1,5 dodge for 25 might..

1 dodge for 25 might just sounds really bad for a GM trait.. y ok + some minor healing..

This made core warrior dead. It was already at a major disadvantage without the resistances of a sb. Only way to really survive was Dodge and now that's gone. Guess they wanted to make sb the new meta for warriors.

This change sucks. It killed Spellbreaker build diversity. My preferred Strength, Discipline, Spellbreaker build is now dead. I don't understand the rationale. Maybe they think the reworked Reckless Dodge will give enough might to compensate? I don't think so.

@Biguyshrooms.2051 said:This made core warrior dead. It was already at a major disadvantage without the resistances of a sb. Only way to really survive was Dodge and now that's gone. Guess they wanted to make sb the new meta for warriors.

WUT? So a reduction in might-stacked endurance gain killed core warrior? If those extra 3 endurance per might application is what was holding core warrior together, there are much larger concerns here than it's reduction.

The truth is that dodging is not gone and the fact that this trait only gets more effective as there are more frequent applications of might from increased sources .. like the new might on dodge trait.

Increased sources? Have you played core warrior in a ranked game? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to even play core warrior in the current meta? And yes the "new" might trait gives a source of might but it is in no way an increased source from the previous setup. If you really played core warrior you'd understand my statement. @Obtena.7952

Yeah, I agree with Biguyshrooms.2051.

I've been playing Core in WvW for Roaming before the patch, using the MMR build. Dodging was my primary "defensive" and is usually what helps me win 1vX fights. Endure Pain is great for countering power bursts but Berserker Stance is a sorry excuse for a condi-counter. Dodging condi skills was the only way for Core to even have a chance vs a competent Condi Players. They dump condi on you then run away/go defensive once you get Resistance then come back for more once it's gone... or they corrupt it :(

At least with SB you have a "consistent" way of getting Resistance, but with Core it was always about not getting hit in the first place. Even vs Power Builds, Core relies on dodge rolling because any good player can abuse warriors when they pop their only reliable defensive; Endure Pain. Just run away, pop stealth, go immune, block, ect so the warrior can't take advantage of not taking damage - It just gets wasted, twice.

Core wasn't by any means overpowered - it was just pretty darn good. Now it's been gutted.

I'm playing SB now and the build itself is carrying me whilst I'm learning it.

@"Biguyshrooms.2051" said:Increased sources? Have you played core warrior in a ranked game? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to even play core warrior in the current meta? And yes the "new" might trait gives a source of might but it is in no way an increased source from the previous setup. If you really played core warrior you'd understand my statement. @Obtena.7952

Yes, I forgot ... ranked PVP is the primary way Anet assesses game changes to the classes. What was I ever thinking here. Adding other ways to gain might indeed increases the number of sources of might.

Sorry, Dodging is not eliminated, ruined, gutted or anything of the sort. A reduction of 3 endurance on this trait doesn't take a well-performing class and make it trash tier ... that's just sensationalism.

@meepeY.2867

You took the words from my keyboard. That was how core warrior was played. I tried it post nerf and wow. I was being farmed in ranked due to all the condis flying around and not enough endurance gain. It's a shame really.

@Obtena.7952 said:Yes, I forgot ... ranked PVP is the primary way Anet assesses game changes to the classes. What was I ever thinking here. Adding other ways to gain might indeed increases the number of sources of might.

Sorry, Dodging is not eliminated, ruined, gutted or anything of the sort. A reduction of 3 endurance on this trait doesn't take a well-performing class and make it trash tier ... that's just sensationalism.

Then we have nothing to discuss. You just proved my point as to why you don't comprehend my view. Also, this was a nerf to pvp. Not pve. The reason why you're stating that it's not a nerf is because for pve you rarely roll continously unlike in pvp or wvw where it's essential to stay alive. Read @meepeY.2867 post and maybe without ever setting foot in a pvp/wvw situation will you understand.

@Biguyshrooms.2051 said:@"meepeY.2867"

You took the words from my keyboard. That was how core warrior was played. I tried it post nerf and wow. I was being farmed in ranked due to all the condis flying around and not enough endurance gain. It's a shame really.

So you're assessing this SINGLE change to warrior's performance after the last patch ... a patch where dozens of changes were make to all kinds of skills in the game on many classes ...

Correlation does not imply causation. You can't simply say "Warrior is wrekt because we got a endurance gain nerf" ... you could only make that claim if it was the ONLY change made in the last patch. I don't need to comprehend your view; it's illogical to begin with. You've ignored ALL the other possible reasons for why your performance has changed and cherrypicked at your convenience the one change that you didn't like ...

@"Obtena.7952"Yes, yes I am. Do you know why they picked that SINGLE skill to nerf? Once again your ignorance shines through. I never said warrior was was wrekt, I said core warrior was dead. You're wasting my time with your arguments. Here I'll explain. Let's say you enjoy classic cars. Nothing wrong with that. But you enjoy them so much, so caught up in your ways, that you don't even care nor are interested in driving a modern car. Henceforth in that same context you've never had the experience to play a core warrior in ranked. This nerf was MADE for pvp. Hence why you don't even mind it. This will be my last post directed towards you because your knowledge doesn't grasp this Single "minuscule" change that does NOT affect pve nowhere near as it does to pvp. Have a great night.

Didn't seem like something that was super OP. Oh well, guess I'll swap Str for Disc.

@Biguyshrooms.2051 said:@"Obtena.7952"Yes, yes I am. Do you know why they picked that SINGLE skill to nerf? Once again your ignorance shines through. I never said warrior was was wrekt, I said core warrior was dead. You're wasting my time with your arguments. Here I'll explain. Let's say you enjoy classic cars. Nothing wrong with that. But you enjoy them so much, so caught up in your ways, that you don't even care nor are interested in driving a modern car. Henceforth in that same context you've never had the experience to play a core warrior in ranked. This nerf was MADE for pvp. Hence why you don't even mind it. This will be my last post directed towards you because your knowledge doesn't grasp this Single "minuscule" change that does NOT affect pve nowhere near as it does to pvp. Have a great night.

Sorry, you aren't not correct here. You can't say that core warrior is dead because they lost 3 endurance per might stack from a trait .... while ignoring ALL these other game changes that occurred around you at the same time. No single trait is so significantly defining a class that reducing it's effect has such a strong impact on it's performance.

@Biguyshrooms.2051 is talking about sPVP/WVW, not PVE and losing 3 Endurance per stack IS a massive deal. @Obtena.7952.

The best and pretty much only viable core build was ''Dodging Makes Right'' and now it's been gutted in the new patch.

All of the other Core Builds aren't good enough in the current meta to be viable, essentially killing the only Core Warrior build that was viable in sPVP/WVW. Sure, there are other Core Builds out there, but none of them will have good consistency. There are gimmicky builds here and there which are fun but will never be meta.

The DMR build relied heavily on the endurance regeneration from gaining Might when camping Greatsword for defensive purposes.

To break it down, the build had

• 100% Endurance Regeneration from Food or Stamina Signet + Vigor from Stances via the Last Stand trait. Base is 5 Endurance Per Second up to 10 Per Second with this (Remember that Vigor wont always be constant because randomly using stances just for Vigor is stupid).
• 15 Endurance returned from Burst skills landing via the Building Momentum minor trait from the Strength trait line (Not exactly reliable for regenerating Endurance)
• 5 Endurance per Might Stack via the Forceful Greatsword trait, Superior Sigil of Strength (WvW) or Sigil of Courage (sPVP), Shield Stance (with Shield Master trait) & Signet of Rage

You also had 10% increased damage when your endurance wasn't full, but RIP that minor trait.

Most of the dodgerolls came from gaining might. 10 Might = 1 Roll ~ Roughly 6 hits with a Greatsword if I get decent RNG with Sigil of Strength.

Now 25 Might = 1 Roll ~ Roughly 15 hits if and ONLY if my RNG with Crits is good for one single dodge roll.

It's been nerfed so hard that it takes over DOUBLE the might to get the same results. Stacking up to 25 might in a fight takes a long time just to get one dodgeroll. I wont be able to Camp Greatsword for that long if I ever intend to use Shield Stance and Shield Stance requires my enemy to be stupid for me to gain might.

I've played this build as my main spec, I know what I'm talking about and I know how hard the changes have hurt the build. Once you've played this build, you get a feel for when you should be able to dodgeroll and now I'm trying to roll but I don't have the endurance for it any more, when I would've been able to before. The build has lost one of its main ways to regenerate it's defensive condition, thus hurting the build so much that you may as well just swap to Spellbreaker for versing both Power and Condi matchups if you ever intend to be competitive.

Core isn't exactly super duper uber dead, its just lost its only viable 'meta' build, thus making Core pretty much obsolete in any pvp situation. Every fight ends with; "If I was a Spellbreaker that fight would've been so much easier/ I would've won that fight".

@Biguyshrooms.2051 is talking about sPVP/WVW, not PVE and losing 3 Endurance per stack IS a massive deal. @Obtena.7952.

I didn't say it wasn't a massive deal. I'm saying that core warrior isn't dead because they lost 3 endurance per might stack from a trait. If that trait was THE significantly defining a class that reducing it's effect has such a strong impact on it's performance, then their is some greater problem with the core warrior than losing this endurance regain.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Biguyshrooms.2051 is talking about sPVP/WVW, not PVE and losing 3 Endurance per stack

IS

a massive deal. @Obtena.7952.

Did you ever played core war in pvp these days ? Coz it looks you just hear about it. MMR was only option for core warrior to compete. Now u must only play SB..

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Biguyshrooms.2051 said:@Obtena.7952Yes, yes I am. Do you know why they picked that SINGLE skill to nerf? Once again your ignorance shines through. I never said warrior was was wrekt, I said core warrior was dead. You're wasting my time with your arguments. Here I'll explain. Let's say you enjoy classic cars. Nothing wrong with that. But you enjoy them so much, so caught up in your ways, that you don't even care nor are interested in driving a modern car. Henceforth in that same context you've never had the experience to play a core warrior in ranked. This nerf was MADE for pvp. Hence why you don't even mind it. This will be my last post directed towards you because your knowledge doesn't grasp this Single "minuscule" change that does NOT affect pve nowhere near as it does to pvp. Have a great night.

Lol, have you ever played GW2? Almost every class has a trait which defines it, nerf that trait and you'll kill that class.

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Biguyshrooms.2051 said:@Obtena.7952Yes, yes I am. Do you know why they picked that SINGLE skill to nerf? Once again your ignorance shines through. I never said warrior was was wrekt, I said core warrior was dead. You're wasting my time with your arguments. Here I'll explain. Let's say you enjoy classic cars. Nothing wrong with that. But you enjoy them so much, so caught up in your ways, that you don't even care nor are interested in driving a modern car. Henceforth in that same context you've never had the experience to play a core warrior in ranked. This nerf was MADE for pvp. Hence why you don't even mind it. This will be my last post directed towards you because your knowledge doesn't grasp this Single "minuscule" change that does NOT affect pve nowhere near as it does to pvp. Have a great night.

^^^The nerf was out of nowhere and killed build diversity.

How were you playing before might make right? Trait introduce august 8, 2017. For a relatively new trait, to be deemed as "class defining", either the core warrior was in a very sorry shape or warriors were playing differently before, which would mean that they can easily return to the old way to play.

Now, I've seen players in the PvP subforum saying that core warrior had never been weak, who's right? PvP players? Warriors player? Neither?

Might make right was a gimmick that gave quite a lot of survivability and anet tend to nerf builds with a lot of survivability, the so called bunkers. It was obvious then that a nerf was about to come. In fact, granted what Anet is able to do when they nerf something, we could say that MMR end up relatively well after taking the nerf bat.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:How were you playing before might make right? Trait introduce august 8, 2017. For a relatively new trait, to be deemed as "class defining", either the core warrior was in a very sorry shape or warriors were playing differently before, which would mean that they can easily return to the old way to play.

Now, I've seen players in the PvP subforum saying that core warrior had never been weak, who's right? PvP players? Warriors player? Neither?

Might make right was a gimmick that gave quite a lot of survivability and anet tend to nerf builds with a lot of survivability, the so called bunkers. It was obvious then that a nerf was about to come. In fact, granted what Anet is able to do when they nerf something, we could say that MMR end up relatively well after taking the nerf bat.

Honestly MMR wasn't essential for Core. I actually used Berserkers Power on my old core build (the huge damage buff easily outclassed the minor sustain increase for me). The real gut wrencher for me was the removal of Stick and Move.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:How were you playing before might make right? Trait introduce august 8, 2017. For a relatively new trait, to be deemed as "class defining", either the core warrior was in a very sorry shape or warriors were playing differently before, which would mean that they can easily return to the old way to play.

Now, I've seen players in the PvP subforum saying that core warrior had never been weak, who's right? PvP players? Warriors player? Neither?

Might make right was a gimmick that gave quite a lot of survivability and anet tend to nerf builds with a lot of survivability, the so called bunkers. It was obvious then that a nerf was about to come. In fact, granted what Anet is able to do when they nerf something, we could say that MMR end up relatively well after taking the nerf bat.

This really (as i said in another thread)...

The trait was too strong and needed to be nerfed. But in the same breath i think 3 endurance would have been fairer to compete with Berserkers Power.

Ultimately though as you say, Warrior worked before the trait existed (which hasnt been long) it will work without it. You will just see more warriors running 2 endures again.

Hi,

@"Dadnir.5038" said:How were you playing before might make right? Trait introduce august 8, 2017.

Before MMR, power core warriors would go with Berserker's Power, which was indeed an inferior version, but still fun to play, and somehow viable in WvW (as the level of players there vary greatly, since you have no match-making to restrict the level of the players you face).

For a relatively new trait, to be deemed as "class defining", either the core warrior was in a very sorry shape or warriors were playing differently before, which would mean that they can easily return to the old way to play.

I assume we're talking PvP right? Well, the warrior in general (core or elite) was indeed in very sorry shape, after the nerf to primal bursts. MMR did make the comeback of core warrior possible. Without it, the warrior only has spellbreaker meta build now.

Historically the value of the warrior has changed a lot since HoT. Initially, HoT brought a great condi spec for PvE (Berserker), but nothing really viable for PvP - even pro warriors switched to other classes (remember Tarcis going revenant...). They had to buff significantly the Berserker Spec, using suggestions that had been made during beta WE months before, before condition macezerker emerged as a meta build. Other gimmick builds were also played (sword/torch mace/shield, hybrid GS), but were insufficient to face the then other overpowered classes. Later, the nerf to primal bursts completely retired Berserker builds from competitive gameplay, even in WvW (!) where almost anything is possible.

By introducing MMR, ANet anticipated on PoF and wanted to offer an additional option for sustain, which would work well with Spellbreaker (especially Magebane Tether). Unfortunately, they probably did not realize it would give core warrior more sustain than it needed, as they could take both MMR and Adrenal Health.

FYI, the warrior has only one trait which is class-defining in terms of competitive play, and that is Fast Hands. Most of us were actually expecting Fast Hands to be made baseline, possibly with some nerfs to compensate, when the new trait system was rolled out (at the same time mesmer got Illusionary Persona made baseline). It was a missed opportunity, and now it feels like the Balance Team, having jumped onto the tiger, does not know how to get off of it.

Might make right was a gimmick that gave quite a lot of survivability and anet tend to nerf builds with a lot of survivability, the so called bunkers. It was obvious then that a nerf was about to come. In fact, granted what Anet is able to do when they nerf something, we could say that MMR end up relatively well after taking the nerf bat.

There's no questioning that MMR was too strong, however the nerf was the same for all game modes, where it should have been modulated per game mode. In its current version, MMR is still fine in WvW, (probably) mostly because it can be supplemented by gear and food, plus the buff to Reckless Dodge works okay there. I haven't bothered trying it in PvP, but I'm 100% sure that core warrior has no way whatsoever to become competitive with the current version of MMR.

I actually don't care about it, because I multiclass and honestly don't bother with PvP anymore (5k games under the belt, lots of regret about how PvP has evolved since the trait refactoring years ago) - but I can definitely understand the frustration of PvP warriors who finally had something good, and now are stuck, again, with one boring elite-spec-meta-build.

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Biguyshrooms.2051 said:@Obtena.7952Yes, yes I am. Do you know why they picked that SINGLE skill to nerf? Once again your ignorance shines through. I never said warrior was was wrekt, I said core warrior was dead. You're wasting my time with your arguments. Here I'll explain. Let's say you enjoy classic cars. Nothing wrong with that. But you enjoy them so much, so caught up in your ways, that you don't even care nor are interested in driving a modern car. Henceforth in that same context you've never had the experience to play a core warrior in ranked. This nerf was MADE for pvp. Hence why you don't even mind it. This will be my last post directed towards you because your knowledge doesn't grasp this Single "minuscule" change that does NOT affect pve nowhere near as it does to pvp. Have a great night.

LAWLWUT? A dodge trait defines Warrior? Are you kidding? (EDIT: Especially one warriors have only had for 4 months!)

No, dodge traits define something like Daredevil. One dodge trait does NOT define warrior and not for the 4 months it's been there.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:How were you playing before might make right? Trait introduce august 8, 2017. For a relatively new trait, to be deemed as "class defining", either the core warrior was in a very sorry shape or warriors were playing differently before, which would mean that they can easily return to the old way to play.

EXCELLENT point ... So what happened guys? Warriors were just suck level trash before August 8, 2017? Warriors weren't defined at all because they didn't have this trait? The answers to those questions are both NO, so quit trying to sell MMR change as 'class-destroying'. It was excessive at 5, they pulled it back. Is 2 right? Maybe not, but it's not 0 or 1. Anet isn't being unreasonable here and core warrior is no more dead from this than they were before August 8, 2017 when the trait was introduced.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Biguyshrooms.2051 said:@Obtena.7952Yes, yes I am. Do you know why they picked that SINGLE skill to nerf? Once again your ignorance shines through. I never said warrior was was wrekt, I said core warrior was dead. You're wasting my time with your arguments. Here I'll explain. Let's say you enjoy classic cars. Nothing wrong with that. But you enjoy them so much, so caught up in your ways, that you don't even care nor are interested in driving a modern car. Henceforth in that same context you've never had the experience to play a core warrior in ranked. This nerf was MADE for pvp. Hence why you don't even mind it. This will be my last post directed towards you because your knowledge doesn't grasp this Single "minuscule" change that does NOT affect pve nowhere near as it does to pvp. Have a great night.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:How were you playing before

might make right

? Trait introduce august 8, 2017. For a relatively new trait, to be deemed as "class defining", either the core warrior was in a very sorry shape or warriors were playing differently before, which would mean that they can easily return to the old way to play.

To the first point, no, MMR is not class defining, but i don't think Zaraki was saying it was. I think he/she was specifically replying to your statement 'No single trait is so significantly defining a class that reducing it's effect has such a strong impact on it's performance.'. I think he/she was just being a bit tongue in cheek ^^.

The second point, yes i agree that the nerf to MMR does not destroy our class, as we did not have it before. But what i can say is, we have had all our stances changed (November 7th update) dramatically in the time MMR was introduced (August 8th), which does have a direct impact on our survivability. So yes, there is a significant difference between before MMR existed, and MMR now. MMR did help in the PvP environment to compensate for these changes, to make (especially core) warrior viable in PvP. The combination of the stance and MMR changes has made a significant impact on core warrior in the PvP and WvW scene.

I think that to be fair, I should offer less sass. My point is that you take the good changes and the bad ones ... and being sensational about the bad changes doesn't mean much here. To be honest, I can only repeat what i've said already; if this trait nerfed from 5 to 2 endurance regain transforms warrior from 'good' to 'trash', then it's not the trait change that's the issue in the first place. No class should hinge so heavily on a single trait, and to be frank, i don't think Warrior did, or does now.