This Condi Meta...

This meta is an out of control train wreck in pvp and here's my reason why and how:

1. Overtuned conditions plus easy application leading to gimmick builds.

Burn guard, evade thief, condi reaper are just a few builds that have over run this meta. These build's condi application is simple and the reward is high.

2. Power damage vs Condi damage

The amount of power damage mitigation does not equal the amount of condi damage mitigation. Power is mitigated by toughness, boons, class specific buffs, etc., but the amount is not equivalent to condi damage mitigation.

3. End boon conversion to condition damage

This one is hard, but I believe this leads to a major imbalance between condi vs power builds. A condi build gains a lot from boon conversion, but a power build does not. Condi builds also have a lot more access to boon conversion.

4. Condi damage creep

Beginning of GW2 power builds were the meta, and majority of condi builds (besides engineer) were excluded. However, more builds, condis, and condi buffs have led us to this point. Hopefully we're almost done with the opposite side of this swinging pendulum, but I know it's not. I feel with the new class specializations in POF, condis are going to get much worse and continue to run out of control.

Let me know your thoughts!

Cheers,Windler

What condi meta, you mean the just condi thief meta?

Condi warrior is trash, Condi rev is trash, Condi ranger is trash, Condi engi is trash, Condi ele is trash.

The only classes that can even think about using a condi build are thief, necro, and Mesmer. However condi necro is rarely seen in pug queues, and I honestly don't even see that many condi mesmers anymore.

please add a delete post button to the forums

I thumbed you down because:

1:No necro isn't overtuned.Necro condi currently does less than others condi dmg wise, and are super squishy.Also:If you nerf necro condi, we will be even less viable for pve.2:Reaper has its weaknesses don't nerf reaper bro, we need it.We already need eles to babysit us to survive vs other classes.

On other classes:Yeah other condi classes can be pretty nuts, especially combined with survivability.Warrior/Guardians and mesmers specifically have insane survivability and i get wrecked by mesmers a lot.

As for evade thief which i presume you mean S/D? its weak to condis too.S/D condi thieves have less stealth moves so they are very vulnerable to condi ramp up and stun burst combos.

@Axl.8924 said:I thumbed you down because:

1:No necro isn't overtuned.Necro condi currently does less than others condi dmg wise, and are super squishy.Also:If you nerf necro condi, we will be even less viable for pve.2:Reaper has its weaknesses don't nerf reaper bro, we need it.We already need eles to babysit us to survive vs other classes.

On other classes:Yeah other condi classes can be pretty nuts, especially combined with survivability.Warrior/Guardians and mesmers specifically have insane survivability and i get wrecked by mesmers a lot.

As for evade thief which i presume you mean S/D? its weak to condis too.S/D condi thieves have less stealth moves so they are very vulnerable to condi ramp up and stun burst combos.

Condi warrior doesn't even exist anymore though. Condi guardian, and condi thief are still worse than power guard, and power d/p thief.

Mesmer is the only class in the game right now where the condi version is better than the power version of the same class.

I encounter quite a lot of burst from thieves mesmers and guardians is all i know.I'm dealing maybe 2k if i'm lucky if i use staff only which isn't a lotSure i can deal big numbers, but only if i can get close enough and not get cced to death by multiple classes including rangers and mesmers who can burst me down in 5 seconds, so i need that big dmg.

One thing to consider as this might be a l2p issue, is:What class are you playing? do you have condi cleanses? are you using them?

Realize this condi meta is being played by the majority of people,as it is in wvw.Making a Anti condi post does not fair well with these people.You only get a handfull agreeing with you and the rest being against you and telling you its a l2p issue ( Those saying that dont realize the person in question hasnt said anything about dying to them,just pointing out its All condi,but yeah still a l2p issue somehow ! ) eventhough youre making a solid statement.Untill Anet gets their head out of their asses,there isnt much to do or trying to accomplish putting this issue at hand on these forums.

Meta changes in a few days....... Already have a decent Condi Ele build outsourced.

2/9 classes are condi fam.

I understand post like this is going to get a lot of thumbs down based on these are build most players are playing atm. It's a problem I see growing. This isn't just a pvp issue. Every aspect of the game is having condi issue. WvW use to be power/stab trains. Now, it's condi bombs. PvE, 80-85% of top dps builds are condi. There's a reason for this. It's not because it's a l2p issue. It's power is under performing compared to condi.

Condi isn't meta but hard to manage if not with supporter builds.The fact is that if you or your duo mate don't run a support build maybe noone will run it and the condition will be too hard to manage. Thanks duo queue.

But don't worry! With Soulbeast's shared stances and Brown Bear you'll be able to give AoE Resistance, cleanse condition, immunity to movement related condition while also having more immunity and unblockables than the old berserker, good evades uptime and be able to open from stealth (leap in Smokeskale's field) with 16k maul damage. Where is your backstab now?

you are wrong , condi is only good against low ranked noobs, if you know how to clear condi its easy, burn guardian is shit, condi reaper sucks and power is much better

@raul.7859 said:you are wrong , condi is only good against low ranked noobs, if you know how to clear condi its easy, burn guardian is kitten, condi reaper kitten and power is much better

I'm sorry, but I take issue with "knowing how to clear condi". What is there to know? In a team fight you can clear everything and 2 seconds later you have absolutely everything on you again.

Condi builds have a huge presence in lower tiers because fighting condi takes more awareness and CD management than fighting power - a new players sees 5 conditions, panic uses a mass cleanse when maybe the condis would've only taken 2k HP off, then they get bursted and die. Power is easier to react to because it's more obvious how much damage you just took.

I'm not saying every condi build is a L2P issue, but the higher you go the fewer you encounter. We're definitely not in a condi meta.

Are conditions overtuned? Yes, but so are defensive CDs so it kinda evens out.

I think some people arent realizing that the current condi builds in this meta are narrowing the build diversity that we could have.

Condi cleanse is on demand, as cc breaks too (but thats for another story).

Builds that could see play with "x" utility arent played because you are forced to slot "y" utility or die, and chances are, that utility its nothing synergestic with the planned build at all.

The best builds are the ones that have weapons that are standalone great for use (or at least great with the correct traits), ensuring you use your utility slots for defensive stuff.

I bet this issue will not be adressed at all, so the best shot is to get diversity with the new upcoming elite specs.

@raul.7859 said:you are wrong , condi is only good against low ranked noobs, if you know how to clear condi its easy, burn guardian is kitten, condi reaper kitten and power is much better

1. You have to take low ranking into consideration when you're balancing as well, they make up for the majority of the pvp community.

2. Viable condi builds have more condi pressure than there is removal for them, that's why they're viable in the first place.

3. Condi builds are very much still present in higher ranking, even though power is preferred.

@Cosbuster.4379 said:

@raul.7859 said:you are wrong , condi is only good against low ranked noobs, if you know how to clear condi its easy, burn guardian is kitten, condi reaper kitten and power is much better

In a team fight if thats happening to you then that means you are the focus of multiple people. Just like power, being focused and not getting TFO is gonna get you killed.

For the record, I only play power builds.

Stacking condi really fast requires timing and combos and the target standing and taking it just like power bursts do. Even then you can often kill their burst with a single utility skill and suddenly they do nothing. Furthermore, a lot of those super heavy condi builds are also super squishy. Burn Guard is effective at lower/middle tiers but not OP by any means. Most are pretty glass cannon. Condi thief takes like 2 hits to kill. Necro is tankier thanks to their mechanic but still, 7k hits make him die pretty quick (thanks power!)

Honestly, this condi complaining is almost entirely L2P. Weapon swap condi cleansing, traits that add passive condi cleansing, utilities that are designed for condi cleansing. All of these are a thing. If you choose to spec without condi cleanse then you are just leaving yourself a big weakness.

please leave condition warrior out of this, it's already killed since august update...

@Ivantreil.3092 said:I think some people arent realizing that the current condi builds in this meta are narrowing the build diversity that we could have.

Condi cleanse is on demand, as cc breaks too (but thats for another story).

Builds that could see play with "x" utility arent played because you are forced to slot "y" utility or die, and chances are, that utility its nothing synergestic with the planned build at all.

The best builds are the ones that have weapons that are standalone great for use (or at least great with the correct traits), ensuring you use your utility slots for defensive stuff.

I bet this issue will not be adressed at all, so the best shot is to get diversity with the new upcoming elite specs.

Amen brother.

That sums up my view of SPvP. You got a few condition builds doing fairly good and you got cleanse machines fighting each others. People call those cleanse bot ''power builds'' even if they don't pack the punch if you compare them to old builds slotted with offensive utilities... Everyone is using defensive utilities nowadays because it is the only thing that keeps condition builds in check in SPvP.

@Phantom.5389 said:

@Ivantreil.3092 said:I think some people arent realizing that the current condi builds in this meta are narrowing the build diversity that we could have.

Condi cleanse is on demand, as cc breaks too (but thats for another story).

Builds that could see play with "x" utility arent played because you are forced to slot "y" utility or die, and chances are, that utility its nothing synergestic with the planned build at all.

The best builds are the ones that have weapons that are standalone great for use (or at least great with the correct traits), ensuring you use your utility slots for defensive stuff.

I bet this issue will not be adressed at all, so the best shot is to get diversity with the new upcoming elite specs.

Disagree completely. Lot of classes just have condi cleanse built in. Take Radiant Hammer. Condi cleanse on weapon swap, gonna swap to continue dealing damage. Condi cleanse on F2. Gonna F2 for more retaliation and the massive burst that goes with it (plus the heal). Condi cleanse on Heal skill, gonna heal to heal because I am dying, condi cleanse is just a bonus. Condi cleanse on Smite Condition, which is used in almost every build for its added burst damage potential (easily see 3k-4k crits in an aoe). Condi cleanse on Contemplation of Purity is about all that you could argue is purely choosing to go cleansing over anything else. But that's one utility slot, hardly "cleanse bot power build." Condi cleanse when I do a blast finisher in a light field, guess what just happens to be my main source of heavy damage?

And this ignores the DH guardian meta with Hunter's Fortification and condi cleansing on blocks which Guardians do a lot of.

I really think the people who complain about condi damage in general are facing L2P situations. Not managing their passive condi cleanses correctly, or not specing anything. Plenty of builds output a ton of damage and still keep condi cleanse. Now, there may be a specific class/build that is condi and OP that needs to be tweaked. But specific builds being OP doesn't mean condi overall is out of control.

I play Guardian and Necro. I play them Conditions because I really like the DoT damage mechanic in every game and if there's a build that can fight with that I always chose that one.That sayd, Power is still way better than Condition. There's different reasons like more survavibility (Power builds tend to grant more survavibility than condi ones, depending on the class), more Burst (all the sPvP is focused on Burst or get Bursted and Power do it better than condi by a lot), more Damage (In every match I do, when I use Power I inflict more damage than Condi, even with the necro), Istant damage (inflict all your damage when the skill land is the main difference and the one that make Power better than condi). There's other reasons but I'm too lazy to write.

1. Overtuned conditions plus easy application leading to gimmick builds.

Condition application is simple against unkilled players only. Also, you mentioned the 3 classes with the easiest condi skills to evade. You can evade the guardian torch 3 just by moving, you can make the enemy reaper waste his RS combo with a single movement skill (is also easy to see and dodge away), if you run away from a thief he can't dodge on your head all the time and have lesser stealth than the power build, making him really easy to evade and catch just with a single movement skill.Also, conditions are applied by skills and you can block/evade/xxxxx them as you do with every other skill in this game.Compared to Power there's no diversity between damage application. But conditions inflict damage over time and to evade that damage stack you have to evade the skill that applied it. If you try to dodge the damage after you feel it on yourself you're already too late.

2. Power damage vs Condi damage

Another wrong thing. The only things that make Power weaker than conditions are toughness, protection and weakness. For every other thing there's an anti-condi version of it and there's no good builds that use amulets with toughness.Also, how much classes spam protection and weakness? How much spam condi clean? (eventually AoE).You don't have to see the number of things that reduce X damage but the amount of them in the game and the amount of damage reduced. protection reduce damage by 33%, but a condi clean can reduce your damage by 90%.There's also classes/builds like ele and ranger that literally spam AoE condi clean all the day long. use one of them or play with one of them in your party and you'll see the enemy condi burst become a useless try to inflict a barely acceptable damage.

3. End boon conversion to condition damage

Boons that grant condition damage are aegis, retalation, regeneration and vigor. How much of them you see in game? Maybe regeneration, but corrupt a boon grant you a single stack of that condition (3 for bleed and confusion), totally unable to grant you any kind of advantage in terms of damage.The best thing to corrupt is Stability, Resistance and Regeneration to inflict fear, Chill and Poison, things that are hugely appreciated even by a Power build.

4. Condi damage creep

Conditions are really strong at low ranks because players don't want to play support ele or ranger, they want to kill people, pew pew the enemies and hammer down the other team with damage. No one care to use a support and if you find one is not always a real one and frequently play bad enough to make conditions eat you alive.Start to make a build able to survive alone and then hope to find a support or play one by yourself.

Also, if you have a build that can counter conditions you'll find easier kill not only condi builds but also Power builds because a lot of Power builds spam different conditions like vulnerability, cripple, chill, immobilize, weakness..... to make you easier to kill.

conditions are able to kill you and you're unable to clean all the enemy conditions (unless you have an ele in your team). That's why condition have to be able to kill you as the same way power have to be able to kill you.Condition is more harder to fight for a low/mid rank player because is needed a lot of experience to know when active a condi clean and how to manage your CD.

Conditions are stong and you have to face them. But don't worry, Power is still meta and always will be.Nothing kill faster than Power and nothing is better in sPvP than kill fast the enemy with a good Burst.Power will never lose to Condition.

In the end, 4 days and everything will change. Wait few days and we'll see what will be of us all.

@Omcrazy.4756 said:

@Phantom.5389 said:

@Ivantreil.3092 said:I think some people arent realizing that the current condi builds in this meta are narrowing the build diversity that we could have.

Condi cleanse is on demand, as cc breaks too (but thats for another story).

Builds that could see play with "x" utility arent played because you are forced to slot "y" utility or die, and chances are, that utility its nothing synergestic with the planned build at all.

The best builds are the ones that have weapons that are standalone great for use (or at least great with the correct traits), ensuring you use your utility slots for defensive stuff.

I bet this issue will not be adressed at all, so the best shot is to get diversity with the new upcoming elite specs.

You just validate what Omcrazy and I were saying. Nowhere did we say that conditions were ''overpowered'' in SPvP, just that it invalidate too many builds.

Hammer on guardian is one of those weapon that is a standalone great weapon against condition where you you can self cleanse through blast finisher on a very short CD (and guardian is one of the class that even without specing for it, gain access to a low CD cleanse on F2 which you can refresh with ultimate if things go south) For sure now you can go with minimal condi cleanse utilities if you would like. But even then you still pick up smite condition (which I agree is one of the best aoe instant burst damage skill where you get extra condi cleanse on top, but I'm pretty sure no one would pick this skill even if it gave a 5.5k average burst but no condi cleanse instead of 3.5k average + condi cleanse).

I got to admit that I love this build since this is almost my WvW setup whenever I plan to play my hammer guardian... But this build seems to be the hidden unicorn since everything else I see on metabattle does not have the same luck.

Looking at metabattle and I barely see any offensive utilities, its all condi cleanse and those who use offensive tools are usually the condition users for the most part.

I just feel like the balance was much better before HoT. You had much more freedom when it came to the choice of your utilities.

Anyway, SPvP folks only got the mild version of condition builds since TB/Dire is banned from PvP along with the runes/sigils that complement those builds. We will probably never see those builds in the same light since we got our bias.

I wish you a good PvP experience nonetheless while I go back to my WvW roaming hoping I find decent duelers who follow the old ways (old school power builds).

So this comes back to what it was since day 1, people just don't want to bring condition cleanse. The balance wasn't any better before HoT, before that, or before that. Even back then players were clamoring for condition nerfs so they could stack their builds with pure offensive and one shot people with little danger to themselves. That hasn't happened and likely won't because it would be terrible for the game.

I just run infinite condi clear builds... it's effective... I think? But perma stuck in gold lol.

game is unplayable currently due to condi bomb spam. you basically cant play builds that dont have multiple condi wipes, which completely cripples build diversity. this is why we're seeing cancer like Mender druids and Ventari revs running around. I'm in high plat and I absolutely hate the game. these builds dont get less prevalent as we go up the mmr, as some people are trying to argue. people tend to min-max at this level, so it's outright silly to not spam condis to win. yes there are a handful of viable power builds, but man the build diversity is the worst it's ever been that's for sure. I played my Mender druid for a few weeks and I want to delete him / play something else because spamming heals and condi wipes just to hold the point bores me to tears. PoF certainly won't make things any better.