Elusive Mind

It needs to be changed. If you can't see that then I'm not at all sorry to say that you won't be contributing anything of value to this discussion. How to change it though? I figure that if we come up with something that is balanced, we can avoid getting the UC treatment to EM.

The idea I saw put forth the most was to move the condi cleanse to another trait (most of the time I saw people asking to move it to renewing oasis or mirage mantle). But I'm not satisfied with that, as I see the stunbreak spam as the reason EM is ridiculously overpowered, not the condi cleanse. Some ideas that I had for it:

• Using a shatter skill breaks stun - Not my favorite idea, it can still be spammed in the short term, but overall its significantly less stunbreak spam than the current version. However, both IH and Dune Cloak buff affect mirage cloak mechanic, and by extension, a trait that buffs our dodge more or less buffs the same thing. So a Pro for this idea is that it would allow us to choose to buff our dodge (IH and dune cloak would still buff dodge), or buff core mesmer mechanic of shattering.
• Remove the stunbreak completely and redesign EM from the ground up - Pro, removes the stunbreak spam. Neutral, core mesmer already has a lot of stunbreaks, and mirage brought another stunbreak skill. Con, I really enjoy having a stunbreak on a trait, and this would leave us without one.

I personally don't see how the second option could work. If you're able to pick up a mirage mirror, you wouldn't need to break out of a stun.

Well I guess you could use a teleport but that's a significant amount of investment that doesn't seem feasible especially for a grandmaster trait.

I personally would prefer a reworked replacement. Although, that might further the feeling of mirage being a collection of ideas without a comprehensive theme.

@OriOri.8724 said:

• Picking up a mirage mirror breaks stun - Pro, cuts down on the stunbreak spam significantly. Con, despite seemingly built around mirage mirrors, mirage has very little access to them. 3 skills and desert distortion are the only access to mirrors period. I would like to see some additional changes come to mirage with this one just to get access to 1 more mirror from somewhere. Again, this one could be spammed up front, but over time would offer about the same amount of stunbreaks as my first idea I think.

Of course, good choice of pro there because it cuts down stunbreak to zero. How the heck are you supposed to pick up a mirage mirror if you are stunned, lol.

Oh good catch.

@"OriOri.8724" said:

• Picking up a mirage mirror breaks stun - Pro, cuts down on the stunbreak spam significantly. Con, despite seemingly built around mirage mirrors, mirage has very little access to them. 3 skills and desert distortion are the only access to mirrors period. I would like to see some additional changes come to mirage with this one just to get access to 1 more mirror from somewhere. Again, this one could be spammed up front, but over time would offer about the same amount of stunbreaks as my first idea I think.

how do you pick up a mirage mirror, if you're stunned?

edit : lmfao @OP edited it

Move condi cleanse to Renewing Oasis, remove RO's condi duration decrease, remove Elusive Mind and give us something else in its place.Mirage doesn't need a stun break on dodge imo. The spec still has an advantage of being able to dodge while being CC'ed.

So, at 1st I thought EM could be replaced with some power-related trait, but the general idea behind the Mirage traitline seems to be:1st row -> Improved Clones & Mirage Cloak access2nd row -> Defensive3rd row -> Condi DamageSo I suppose EM has to be replaced with something defensive. At the moment I don't really know what it should be, but I'm certain that stun-break on dodge needs to go.

××× While writing this, a very "fun" idea came to my mind:Elusive Mind:All damage you evade with Mirage Cloak is transferred into healing.

Hahah :grin:

Whatever EM ends up as it has to be a realistic choice between dune cloak and IH.

If EM was a single condition cleanse on dodge and lost the stun break then it wouldn’t be a choice, 2 conditions might do.If it was a stunbreak only on dodge it has some competitiveness but it’s still a very strong trait.Another possibility is to enhance the duration of mirage cloak and any boons granted by it by 50% which fits the middle line.Remove enemy targeting on dodge would likewise be a strong candidate for this trait but maybe keep the 1 condition cleansed.

Just some ideas I have.

Edit - I'm reconsidering my previous statement and currently feel that waiting and seeing how the game develops from other changes before considering EM within that framework.

@apharma.3741 said:Whatever EM ends up as it has to be a realistic choice between dune cloak and IH.

If EM was a single condition cleanse on dodge and lost the stun break then it wouldn’t be a choice, 2 conditions might do.If it was a stunbreak only on dodge it has some competitiveness but it’s still a very strong trait.Another possibility is to enhance the duration of mirage cloak and any boons granted by it by 50% which fits the middle line.Remove enemy targeting on dodge would likewise be a strong candidate for this trait but maybe keep the 1 condition cleansed.

Just some ideas I have.

Remove target and cleanse 1 condition on dodge. I like it. Keeps it competitive, doesn't make it overpowered. Drives it quite heavily towards PvP, since target breaking is useless in PvE and does nothing in WvW zerg fights where everything is cleave and AoE anyway. But that's not necessarily a bad thing either.

Elusive mind is a good grand master trait. Grandmaster traits should be powerful. I don't think it needs to be changed at all. I do feel that certain mirage builds needs to be toned down in pvp, but i think that comes more from it's damage application, not stunbreaks of cleanses.

I disagree, ambush is locked behind a tool that we need to live in fights, having a stun break on dodge that on a tool we use offensively half the time is fair. If we chose to hold on to our dodge exclusively to break stuns and condi cleanse we lose access to ambush and vice versa. There are really huge downsides to having a skill be behind a dodge which is also a defensive tool.

@Beautilation.7915 said:

@"OriOri.8724" said:

• Picking up a mirage mirror breaks stun - Pro, cuts down on the stunbreak spam significantly. Con, despite seemingly built around mirage mirrors, mirage has very little access to them. 3 skills and desert distortion are the only access to mirrors period. I would like to see some additional changes come to mirage with this one just to get access to 1 more mirror from somewhere. Again, this one could be spammed up front, but over time would offer about the same amount of stunbreaks as my first idea I think.

It could be:

Elusive Mind - All income Stuns are converted into Daze. Collecting a Mirage Mirror removes all Daze effects and grants 2 seconds of Stability.

Maybe in the minority here, but I would rather like to see how mirage does after some condi nerfs first before discussing how to totally rebuild EM from the ground up. After all, it didn't get hit at all this last patch and I feel a bit like its inevitable. Confusion on every shatter, Torment on every shatter, extra multi confusion stacks with blinding dissipation and Ineptitude (still at two stacks), Riddle of sand applying two instead of one stacks more of confusion, Jaunt still applying and extra 3 stacks. Plus, its not like most mirage builds are landminds for stability. One class in the game is going to have the most stability available to them out of all the classes, one class is going to have the most stun breaks available. This doesn't mean I don't think elusive mind won't necessarily need some changes in the future, just that I would like to see some other changes first.

"It needs to be changed. If you can't see that then I'm not at all sorry to say that you won't be contributing anything of value to this discussion."I usually always agree with you and enjoy what you write on the forums. I also think everyone could see why you would think this. However, starting a conversation with this sounds a bit egotistical to me. Last time I checked, "agreeing that elusive mind needs to be changed" wasn't included in Webster's definition of 'value'.

p.s. However, if there was to be a change, my personal choice would be an internal cooldown on the stun break portion. I hate feeling like if I don't take Inspiration, I need to take specific skills for condi cleanse.

ANet’s fix: We’ll slap a 3 secs interval on it.

/thread :lol:

I would just put on ICD on the stunbreak, if possible (e.g. 5 seconds). Condi cleanse is badly needed, but the stunbreak without ICD is just way too much (coming from a mesmer)

@OriOri.8724 said:It needs to be changed. If you can't see that then I'm not at all sorry to say that you won't be contributing anything of value to this discussion.

Well let me surpise you then. I don't think elusive mind should be changed at all. If the issue is that there is no real choice between infinite horizon and elusive mind, a solution could also be a change to infinite horizon or to the ambushes of clones.

@Miroe.2054 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:It needs to be changed. If you can't see that then I'm not at all sorry to say that you won't be contributing anything of value to this discussion.

The reason EM should be changed is sPvP. It's insanely overpowered in that context.As to the trait itself, I would much rather see the stunbreak replaced by either stronger condi cleanse or increase in duration of the mirage cloak by let's say 30%.

@raynn.9254 said:

@Miroe.2054 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:It needs to be changed. If you can't see that then I'm not at all sorry to say that you won't be contributing anything of value to this discussion.

Also WvW. To add most players complain about 2 things with mirage, the constant condition application and spikes of confusion but also that they cannot pin a mirage down. I’ve seen a lot of people say they don’t mind the damage but that you can’t stun them to set up for damage as they have stunbreak on dodge and 2 more as well as decent condition cleansing from jaunt and EM.

Basically condi mirage is in a similar state as daredevil was in, maybe a few less dodges, but many people said it was too strong then so they can’t say condi mirage isn’t now.

For the record I didn't think daredevil was too powerful and think UC has been excessively nerfed.

At the very least the Condi cleanse access on EM should remain. The only excessive thing is the frequency of stunbreak access.

How about giving us endurance back if we successfully evade an attack, the trait also gives jaunt a stun break on an internal cooldown?Balance numbers and cooldowns separate for PvP to avioid true perma dodge.

@Genesis.5169 said:I disagree, ambush is locked behind a tool that we need to live in fights, having a stun break on dodge that on a tool we use offensively half the time is fair. If we chose to hold on to our dodge exclusively to break stuns and condi cleanse we lose access to ambush and vice versa. There are really huge downsides to having a skill be behind a dodge which is also a defensive tool.

This is quite a good point that is certainly worth considering. I think just removing the condi cleanse and putting it on Renewing Oasis would be a good start. See how it goes from there.

What will probably happen - aegis on dodge :dizzy:

@Simonoly.4352 said:

@"Genesis.5169" said:I disagree, ambush is locked behind a tool that we need to live in fights, having a stun break on dodge that on a tool we use offensively half the time is fair. If we chose to hold on to our dodge exclusively to break stuns and condi cleanse we lose access to ambush and vice versa. There are really huge downsides to having a skill be behind a dodge which is also a defensive tool.

I find it funny when devs tried to reduce mesmer retaliation access because it was "not thematic"... and now it seems our more thematic evades and invulns get replaced by aegis which doesn't make sense. :s

@Genesis.5169 said:I disagree, ambush is locked behind a tool that we need to live in fights, having a stun break on dodge that on a tool we use offensively half the time is fair. If we chose to hold on to our dodge exclusively to break stuns and condi cleanse we lose access to ambush and vice versa. There are really huge downsides to having a skill be behind a dodge which is also a defensive tool.

Quoting for emphasis here. This is a good reminder. I like that our dodge can be traited in a dynamic way to be used offensively OR defensively.

I'm using my dodge for sword mobility leaps, offensive ambush, evading enemy damage AND stunbreak / Condi cleanse against all the Condi spam, and it's not that often that you're doing all of these at the exact same time, you have to save some for survivability, doing so I find myself running out of endurance using it for all these applications and it IS possible though of course a bit difficult to catch me eventually.

It's not more OP than a thief. Some thieves out there are still pulling off almost perma stealth and your window to corner them is still very short. (As it should be, that's their class design). I don't see how EM is op. Especially if you run EM you can't run IH.

Don't think core mesmer or chrono should be the limit of our offensive capability and benchmark. There is power creep across all classes and as far as my experience EM only makes us competitive not winners.

In wvw roaming you know how many people have alot of stab, evades, stealths and invulns? It honestly feels the same. Alot of stuns and cc don't go through and holo and rangers pop lengthy stealth and get away easily too. It's not such a big difference. It's strong and competitive but it's not too much

Ofc this trait is op but what if you go the route of cutting down the sources of confusion mesmer/mirage have. The dmg will be the same since you dont reduce stacks but the overall skills that aply confusion are less.