Tempest, Reaper, Scrapper, Deadeye

Across all 3 game modes, objectively, these Elite Specializations don't seem to have any unique advantages when building a serious class comp.

What is your vision for these specs?

Auramancer is still used in rare occasions like matthias. Kiting tempest can still be used in Cairn/Deimos though other class could certainly fill the role.

Scrapper...me and my guildies were planning to test out how many vindicators we can summon with 5 scrapper gyro res :3

Tempest isn't far from being raid- or fractal viable, the problem is comparison against druid. Tempest is a stronger healer than druid, but falls short on all other areas that a druid brings, and there's not much to compensate with.

Reaper needs Blighter's Boon to always apply both it's effects to get into a bruiser role in pvp. Some other changes might be needed, maybe give Reaper shroud it's 7 sec cooldown back? Would need to be in a Reaper trait to not give it to Scourge as well. Some condi removal would be nice as well.

For Scrapper I don't know exactly but I think it falls short specifically against Scourges who destroy their boons, and load them with condis that they have a hard time cleansing. So buff Purge Gyro? Make the first pulse remove more condis than the consecutive ones?

A wild idea for Scrapper that just occurred to me:Scrap (hehe) the current Adaptive Armor to make a new trait of the same name that would make it so that if a condition is applied to you, you couldn't be inflicted with the same condition again for the next 2 seconds. Would only proc on damaging conditions. An ICD of 4-8 seconds?

No clue on Deadeye, don't play it. But I would like to see a better synergy with pistols. But this is more a pistol problem than DE.

Tempest: It stayed at the top of the food chain in PvE until PoF so it's not that bad. It's a mainly a good support, it's difficult to convert him into a PvP dps because it lack a few survivability tools to gain some window of opportunity to unleash it's damages (basically it does have the issue that all the elementalists have).

Reaper: He is terribly good looking... That's all, but that's already a lot!

Scrapper: Mobility?

Deadeye: As a dps it's a on trick pony. It could probably shine as a support but it doesn't really fit the playstyle that thieves like beside, it's not really a good meta for professions that support throught boons at the moment.

Chaith, your OP seems to be under the assumption that they care, I would bet that over 80% of the Dev resources were moved onto the next expac and there is nothing but a few interns working on PoF/HoT/Core Content if that, since the SoP has almost always been to abandon old content/design.

Now it would be nice if they can go in evaluate what roles they want each class to have access to, what role(s) each Elite Spec is to fulfill under those classes and how each Core Spec is to supplement/enable those role(s), and dial back the every class can do everything mentality, but that would mean taking time and putting in effort on old content/on a large scale.

Tempest has a death grip on any instances PvE content up until recently some tweaks could see it pushed more into the support role that may be lacking from other classes nerfs, Scrapper is in a weird spot it is still “decent” in PvP and WvW as a Bruiser more so WvW with better build options idk what can be done about it since it was too overtuned then they hit pretty hard but it was still strong prior to PoF, Daredevil is DOA and needs a complete rework from the ground up.

@"Chaith.8256" said:Across all 3 game modes, objectively, these Elite Specializations don't seem to have any unique advantages when building a serious class comp.

What is your vision for these specs?

Ooo, vision? Quaggan has many visions, let him share few of his dreams with you!

Tempest - should be superior group fighter, which should give his team more sustain than it does right now and have ability to go big or go home with offensive overloads, which sadly aren't offensive enough._Currently Tempest sustain is based on two things - Tempest has to choose between group support (ability to share auras via Powerful Aura) and/or ability to cleanse with regeneration. So, in "condi heavy meta" you have to sacrifice your most potent team fighting tool for sake of group cleansing. It could be easily fixed by merging Powerful Aura with Elemental Bastion._

Reaper - should be tanky, yet hard hiting bruiser and viable for side nodes as Scrouge always will be better for team fights. It's not tanky enough to do any side node monkeying and it's lacking mobility other professions filling this role have, you could check my sPvP Necro feedback in signature as it's mostly about Blood Magic and Death as inferior trait lines.

Deadeye - not sure, if you played any MOBA games, but Deadeye could be perfect ["ad carry"](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ADC ""ad carry""), who is squishy and requires group support to do his job, but has insane damage output. If Deadeye would be reworked into teamfighter carry thing rather than some silly stealth sniper, it could fill different role than Thief does usualy.

Scrapper - probably something like Spellbreaker, tanky but hitting hard, with ability to sacrifice 1v1 potential for sake of group fights (gyros).

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Chaith, your OP seems to be under the assumption that they care, I would bet that over 80% of the Dev resources were moved onto the next expac and there is nothing but a few interns working on PoF/HoT/Core Content if that, since the SoP has almost always been to abandon old content/design.

ArenaNet gonna do them, we might have some good interns this time around. Chill thread either way :sunglasses:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Chaith, your OP seems to be under the assumption that they care, I would bet that over 80% of the Dev resources were moved onto the next expac and there is nothing but a few interns working on PoF/HoT/Core Content if that, since the SoP has almost always been to abandon old content/design.

Interns do tend to be more excited and driven about what they are doing, especially when it has a chance of ending up in the product. :lol:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Chaith, your OP seems to be under the assumption that they care, I would bet that over 80% of the Dev resources were moved onto the next expac and there is nothing but a few interns working on PoF/HoT/Core Content if that, since the SoP has almost always been to abandon old content/design.

Ain't they usually working on weapon and armor skins? This year they might even have to work on mount and glider skins, balance would be to much work.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Chaith, your OP seems to be under the assumption that they care, I would bet that over 80% of the Dev resources were moved onto the next expac and there is nothing but a few interns working on PoF/HoT/Core Content if that, since the SoP has almost always been to abandon old content/design.

Well if it was interns that designed these glacial or shifting sands weapon sets, my expectations are very high from that particular bunch. Best looking weapon sets in years.

@Chaith.8256 said:Across all 3 game modes, objectively, these Elite Specializations don't seem to have any unique advantages when building a serious class comp.

What is your vision for these specs?

TempestIn PvE they are good healers i've done plenty of fotm cms and raids with tempest as heals.In sPvP they are the best condition control supports in the game.In WvW they drop 10k meteors on ppl.

ReaperPvE epidemic has it place in some encounters i do believe that people underestimate there power in pve so ill give yout hat.sPvP is a very solid spec very tank good at point control fights mid etc.WvW you got me they killed ice field spin combo which was unjust i stand with you necros

DeadeyePvE needs buffssPvP very viable spec its currently doing well imo.WvW no thief build in wvw is bad unless you go out of your way to make a bad thief.

There are issue's but not as bad as you think its more of a player opinion thing then actual application in the game.

Regarding scrapper, the current issue is that it doesnt have an established identity at all, it could do some dps, some support, some tanking, but never, ever good enough for like accept them in such roles, Considering that Holosmith has been well defined as our dps spec, Anet should do something about improving Scrapper's potential as a support, and i mean, a real support, not a rezbot.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Chaith, your OP seems to be under the assumption that they care, I would bet that over 80% of the Dev resources were moved onto the next expac and there is nothing but a few interns working on PoF/HoT/Core Content if that, since the SoP has almost always been to abandon old content/design.

More than likely they did the Obsidian set...... and probably the whole Pvp Ascended debacle of no infusion slots.

@Genesis.5169 said:TempestIn PvE they are good healers i've done plenty of fotm cms and raids with tempest as heals.In sPvP they are the best condition control supports in the game.In WvW they drop 10k meteors on ppl.

In sPvP they aren't viable, because they don't have enough cleanse and their condi cleanse comes with regeneration, which is easily corrupted into poison, and if you want to be cleansing bot, Weaver does it better.In WvW any Staff Ele drop over 9000 meteors on zerg, you don't have to be Tempest to do that.

@Genesis.5169 said:ReaperPvE epidemic has it place in some encounters i do believe that people underestimate there power in pve so ill give yout hat.sPvP is a very solid spec very tank good at point control fights mid etc.WvW you got me they killed ice field spin combo which was unjust i stand with you necros

In sPvP they are inferior to Scrouge in every single scenario, as by design they are filling same role.In WvW it's even worse than in sPvP, because stacking 20+ Scrouges in raid is faceroll, especially when you add army of Firebrands to "babysit" your zerg.

@Genesis.5169 said:DeadeyePvE needs buffssPvP very viable spec its currently doing well imo.WvW no thief build in wvw is bad unless you go out of your way to make a bad thief.

In sPvP they are inferior to every other Thief build, there is no reason to play Deadeye over Daredevil or Core, unless just for trolling and fun.

@Ivantreil.3092 said:Regarding scrapper, the current issue is that it doesnt have an established identity at all, it could do some dps, some support, some tanking, but never, ever good enough for like accept them in such roles, Considering that Holosmith has been well defined as our dps spec, Anet should do something about improving Scrapper's potential as a support, and i mean, a real support, not a rezbot.

Scrapper is not a support spec, it's a PvP bruiser spec. Function gyro is just an additional tool towards that end. Scrapper is supposed to be the spec that survives 1v1 against any other spec long enough to get a +1, while keeping up a pressuring amount of damage. The only tool it is lacking currently is condi mitigation via reductions and cleanses (and maybe some more superspeed).

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Chaith, your OP seems to be under the assumption that they care, I would bet that over 80% of the Dev resources were moved onto the next expac and there is nothing but a few interns working on PoF/HoT/Core Content if that, since the SoP has almost always been to abandon old content/design.

If these 2 are the same interns, I'm very confused.

@Genesis.5169 said:There are issue's but not as bad as you think its more of a player opinion thing then actual application in the game.

You have made a few good observation of times where it's fine to bring a Scrapper, Tempest, Deadeye, or a Reaper.

There isn't anything that they're uniquely desired for though. Check Metabattle, go through every game mode, and you won't find any of those 4 specs as meta in anything.

You claimed that Tempest is the best at dealing with conditions, I have never seen a team once swap their Firebrand out for a Tempest when facing a heavy condi comp. In fact I've never seen a single tempest healer in platinum+ PvP since PoF.

Hard to say they're the best if they did not find footing during the recent condipocalypseEdit: Thats just a demonstration though, I know that Firebrand is superior condition cleanse even after the shave hotfix.

@"Chaith.8256" said:Across all 3 game modes, objectively, these Elite Specializations don't seem to have any unique advantages when building a serious class comp.

What is your vision for these specs?

Tempests vision was to force ele's to play weaver and have 0 utility 0 group healing and only have fire/air because it's what casuals wanted back in 2012 for elementalist. "Im a glass cannon!". As you said, it has no unique utility and is just a healbot that increases party dps by a very minor amount, you will almost never want this over a druid. It should've never been turned into a pure healer, as it has FIRE OVERLOAD and AIR OVERLOAD meaning it was MEANT TO DEAL DAMAGE. All healers should be given grace of the land.

Scrapper is a disaster of a spec, it ruined pvp for years and never had a place in PVE. I'd love for hammer to be GOOD at dps in pve. Hammers are fun, guardian hammer used to be good, now it got powercrept out by greatsword.

Deadeye should honestly just be ignored and left to rot. Thief did NOT need a silly "stealth sniper" spec or a "ranged" spec. Really silly elite spec idea that was created by marketing to try to bring in overwatch players or something silly. I was pretty mad they gave thief a spec I have no interest in when I love thief/rogue classes in every MMO. This should've been a ranger spec, not a thief one ;/

Condi reaper during HOT was really cool and fun. You'd have a zerg of pets and chill a lot that would turn into bleeds and kill things while being super tanky, then go into a reaper shroud and spin for even more bleed stacks. Now they're trying to make it the "power spec" but it has ZERO utility compared to scourge AND does less dps. As you said, no unique advantages.

Well I have a few suggestions for DE to make it work better in PvE. I think they should make DE into something of a general ranged weapon spec, which provides buffs for rifle/PP/SB.

I make it so in PvE specifically malice isnt lost once you kill an enemy but only after being OoC, or alternatively you can gain malice from killing enemies in addition to passively as it is currently. With the current malice mechanic after killing a foe you lose dps momentum completely, which doesnt make too much sense the 'ramp up time' is bought in line with long DoTs, even though you cant sustain your dps since you rely on iniative as a resource, as opposed to cool downs. Id also make it so DJ returns some initiative after a successful kill so it can be used as the trash clearer and gains bonus damage against non-marked targets too.

Id make it so that rifle itself doesnt generate might instead relies on Pistols side-arm for that (with unload), but gains higher base dmg. This would make it perform better for raids and regulate the one-shotiness-from-out-of-nowhere somewhat in PvP. Three iniative I think works better than 4 for double tap/3rb even if damage has to be decreased to offset it, this would allow the use of the other skills such as kneel and rolls.

I'd change SB so that the DE becomes as menacing as a mordrem sniper who uses the bow. This requires condition dmg and stealth. Seeing as how the DE elite already has the stealth part covered, all that is needed is the ridiculous ground DoT :p (maybe in place of choking gas skill) and a single target condi auto-attack since other powers can fulfill the aoe duties anyway.

Tempest shots need buffs. Start by removing the cast time from the 2 utilities and rebound.

Honestly I think Tempests are fine in PVE. I've tried playing around with Weaver, and the biggest problem with it are all of the high damaging attacks are channels. In high end fractals, I almost never complete them. They get interrupted all the time. Second biggest issue is that the weaver has no innate defenses. The Tempest comes with a stun break, stability, and souped-up auto protection with a magnetic field. The weaver's skills are also locked behind two weapon swaps, whereas the tempest has instantaneous access to all of them. This comes in to play when all the best CC and invulnerability skills are in the 4 and 5 skill slot. The tempest itself didn't suddenly become a low damage spec because the Weaver's unrealistic rotation is ridiculously powerful.

The Deadeye and Scrapper both have the same issue: low damage. The Scrapper has a lot of control effects, and the function gyro is useful as well. You don't seem them because they have low sustained damage. They have good spike damage, though.

The Deadeye has it the worst, since their damage is the lowest and their bit "unique" thing is that they stack might. Currently the Deadeye is forcibly balanced around being either mediocre DPS, or being a support. For the PVE landscape, that just isn't good enough. You need to be capable of doing both, or you'll never get a spot.

Both the Deadeye and the Scrapper need to have DPS at least as high as a Bannerslave warrior, while they are built for support. Even then they'll have to fight for a spot. Currently, they are weaker than Bannerslave warriors when built for damage. That just isn't going to cut it.

I have no opinion on the Reaper currently.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The Deadeye and Scrapper both have the same issue: low damage. The Scrapper has a lot of control effects, and the function gyro is useful as well. You don't seem them because they have low sustained damage. They have good spike damage, though.Both the Deadeye and the Scrapper need to have DPS at least as high as a Bannerslave warrior, while they are built for support. Even then they'll have to fight for a spot. Currently, they are weaker than Bannerslave warriors when built for damage. That just isn't going to cut it.

This is not a PvE specific thread, there is group content in PvP and WvW to consider, too. Being part of the meta in either of those modes would be as equally satisfying as PvE.

Scrapper is not destined to be desirable in PvE, kinda like Spellbreaker. That's fine, instead of making it something that it's not, being uniquely desired and possessing a notable role in WvW or PvP would preferable.

In my subjective opinion, since Scrapper lacks support and damage focused tools, tanking and high target limit (10), high uptime superspeed are the unique flavor qualities to develop. It's a very unique spec overall.

Deadeye I feel has great potential to be desirable in PvE with its unique stolen items mechanic affecting nearby allies in more unique, damaging ways than currently when traited for Fire for Effect. If fire for effect granted those affected less might stacks but caused their next attack to inflict a harsh condition or lifesteal effect, Deadeye could bring enough raid DPS without being personally amazing.

Reaper I think needs straight selfish damage buffs for PvE. Likely a pointless task for it to compete with Scourge in the PvP/WvW realms.

Tempest I want to see become a PvP support staple alongside Firebrand. I feel Tempest needs better access to aura sharing and selfish stability.

@Chaith.8256 said:Reaper I think needs straight selfish damage buffs for PvE. Likely a pointless task for it to compete with Scourge in the PvP/WvW realms.

Honnestly, I don't think that it's issue in PvE. The reaper isn't top dps in PvE and will never be for 2 reasons:

• It doesn't have any skills that can hit multiple time large hitbox foes
• the necromancer focus more on proc than on passive damage buff.

What the reaper lack isn't dps, a reaper can almost reach 29k max power dps and honnestly that's a balanced number for power. No, what the reaper lack in PvE is a party dps increase in form of buff or debuff that would make in welcome in a party. That's all it need and that wouldn't break PvP/WvW. My opinion is that it could have the ability to apply a non-stackable toughness debuff. This would be enough to make it alive in this gamemode.

In WvW/PvP, it's a bit harder though. It has a role/niche but the change to prepare for scourge broke everything. I'm affraid that it would need quite a lot of change to find again a place in these gamemodes.

Renegade is not even up for decision?

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• It doesn't have any skills that can hit multiple time large hitbox foes
• the necromancer focus more on proc than on passive damage buff.

What the reaper lacks isn't dps, a reaper can almost reach 29k max power dps and honnestly that's a balanced number for power. No, what the reaper lack in PvE is a party dps increase in form of buff or debuff that would make in welcome in a party. That's all it need and that wouldn't break PvP/WvW. My opinion is that it could have the ability to apply a non-stackable toughness debuff. This would be enough to make it alive in this gamemode.

29k is with the new Dread trait on a perma feared golem I thought. More like a 27k benchmark I think. Why's it to you off limits for a selfish profession to do slightly more than 'balanced' professions that also bring utility?

They missed a big opportunity with Dread to put in a good debuff. ArenaNet stated they wanted to have less Grace of the Land type buffs, maybe a debuff isn't what they want either? I'd be fine with a debuff though.