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Scourge PvE life force costs analysis [Updated]


Crinn.7864

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This thread is pertaining to the usage of Scourge in a raid environment. This thread assumes a viper/sinister build with no vitality from gear.

Updated to the new life force costs

I used kKagari's highly useful life force cost table for this.

Scourge's meta build will presumably be using Soul Reaping with Vital Persistance and Strength of Undeath. Using the chart this gives a life force pool of 16673. This yields the percentage cost of each F skill per use.

F2: 11.61% per useF3: 14.92% per useF4: 22.10% per useF5: 27.63% per use

These numbers can then be combined with their cooldown to get a average life force cost per second value for using the skill on cooldown.

The first percentage is cost without alacrity, the second is with 100% alacrity. The base cooldown accounts for Vital Persistence.

F2: -2.90% -4.33% per sec (4 sec base cd)F3: -2.33% -3.53% per sec (6.4 sec base cd)F4: -1.84% -2.74% per sec (12 sec base cd)F5: -1.72% -2.57% per sec (16 sec base cd)

Scourge's meta weapon sets will presumably be scepter/torch with scepter/dagger.

Feast of Corruption gives 13% (14.3% with Gluttony) life force per use. This yields a life force gain of:

Scepter3: +1.43% +2.13% per sec (10 sec base cd)

This demonstrates that Scourge running double scepter does not generate enough life force to use F5 on cooldown. However according to a recent dev post, Harrowing Wave will now grant 3% LF (3.3% with gluttony). Harrowing Wave has a cooldown of 20 seconds, and while Fell Beacon does reduce the cooldown of Harrowing Wave, due to weapon swap cooldowns Scourge will not be using Harrowing Wave more than once every 20 seconds regardless.

Torch4: +0.17% +0.24% per sec (effective 20 sec cd)

Combined with Scepter3 this yields:

Scepter3 + Torch4: +1.60% +2.37%

So even with Torch4's new life force gain, Scourge cannot get enough life force to use F5 on cooldown.

Scourge will presumably use BiP and Epidemic for utilites. This leaves 1 free slot for a life force generating utility.I propose using Shadow Fiend as that utility. Shadow Fiend's active skill Haunt generates 10% (11% with gluttony) life force on use. Using Haunt on cd yields the following:

Haunt: +0.55% +0.82% per sec (20 sec base cd)

Combined with Scepter3 and Torch4 this yields:

Scepter3 +Torch4 + Haunt: +2.15% +3.19% per sec

This will allow scourge to use F5 on cd, and maybe one of the other skills every once in a great while. However I'd like to increase my F skill usage as much as possible. I note that not every fight makes use of epidemic, so I prepose using Signet of Undeath in place of epidemic in relevant fights. Signet of Undeath passively generates 2% Life Force every three seconds, which yields a average of:

USiggy: +0.67% per sec (USiggy passive is not affected by alacrity)

Combined with Scepter3, Torch4 and Haunt:

Scepter3 + Torch4 + Haunt + USiggy: +2.82% +3.86% per sec

This still does not allow constant use of anything beyond F5, but it does allow more frequent use of other things.

Other mean to increase LF.

  • It may be worth looking into the use of vitality gear on Scourge for the purposes of easing the insanely tight LF costs
  • you might consider killing your squad members for their Life Force.

Please correct any bad math you see.

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Thanks for doing the math on this!

I wonder what the cost/benefit would be for running warhorn or focus on one of the weapon sets just to have the additional LF generation, even if it stings to possibly lose dagger off-hand for it. You lose the condi transfer on dagger 4, which is already pretty painful when you're running BiP, and you lose additional dps from not having dagger 5. Would it be enough of a gain for it to be an overall benefit?

Though as far as raids go, there are often adds around which should help generate LF to make up for the lack of LF generation on offhand dagger/torch. Not always, but it's common enough that it's worth thinking about how various deaths per minute from adds might increase the efficacy of scourge in raids and make them stronger, in particular fights with lots of adds (Xera comes to mind). Some food for thought!

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@okalevi.2917 said:Thanks for doing the math on this!

I wonder what the cost/benefit would be for running warhorn or focus on one of the weapon sets just to have the additional LF generation, even if it stings to possibly lose dagger off-hand for it. You lose the condi transfer on dagger 4, which is already pretty painful when you're running BiP, and you lose additional dps from not having dagger 5. Would it be enough of a gain for it to be an overall benefit?

Though as far as raids go, there are often adds around which should help generate LF to make up for the lack of LF generation on offhand dagger/torch. Not always, but it's common enough that it's worth thinking about how various deaths per minute from adds might increase the efficacy of scourge in raids and make them stronger, in particular fights with lots of adds (Xera comes to mind). Some food for thought!

Hmm, with the new changes to Torment for PvE, unless you are fighting a boss that never moves, like flamethrower lady (forgot her name, haven't raided since forever), every two stacks of torment will essentially equal three stacks of bleed. That's HUGE! It almost seems like torment is the way to go, and you can even get tanks adjust their tanking style to make bosses twitch slightly for more torment damage. If they aren't moving you're losing 1 stack of bleed, for every 3 bleeds, mathematically speaking.

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Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:

  • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
  • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
  • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
  • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

It may be worth looking into the use of vitality gear on Scourge for the purposes of easing the insanely tight LF costs

The last PoF stat set could be Viper's, with Vit replacing power.

you might consider killing your squad members for their Life Force.

Soul Comprehension value.

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We have also to consider future raids. Will bosses and mobs have a decent amount of boons by stealing or self-generation? In these cases the use of nourishing rot will allow a very stable LF generation.

Tehe is stil the probability that future PoF raids will require a different setup compared to raids of the HoT era. we have to wait and see.

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@Maunzi.3764 said:Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:

  • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
  • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
  • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
  • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

Because dropping scepter in favor of dagger is a significantly larger DPS loss than the DPS you will gain from using more F skills.

As long as scepter provides just enough LF to use F5 on cd, scepter will be our only weapon choice.

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@Maunzi.3764 said:Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:

  • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
  • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
  • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
  • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

Basically because the damage loss from being on Dagger instead of Scepter isn't looking to be made up solely by more F2 and F3 use.

F4 you want to save for breakbars ideally, since it's a high cost for just one shade pulse. You're still going to be better off camping Scepter mainhand.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

you might consider killing your squad members for their Life Force.

It is time to dethrone the guild prima donna Deeps Monkeigh from his top meter spot; our Necromancers will gratefully and solemnly appreciate his life-juice donation.

"Ahh Deeps, maybe we can talk about your unsurpassed skill over here? This cliff view is amazing." "Of course I'm amazing!"

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:
  • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
  • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
  • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
  • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

Basically because the damage loss from being on Dagger instead of Scepter isn't looking to be made up solely by more F2 and F3 use.

It looks the exact opposite to me. Remaining in scepter is downtime that benefits you little. All you gain is +150 Condition damage during this.Tests during the two times we could test scourge clearly showed a significant DPS increase over just using Scepter, if demonic lore is traited.

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You might see more damage from burns, but far less on bleeds and poison. Short burns are great, but they don't quite compare to the 30 second bleeds on Grasping Dead, for example.

Torch is definitely good for damage. I will never dispute that for a millisecond. The Shade abilities don't look to make up for the DPS loss off of dagger vs. Scepter, even factoring in Demonic Lore and Dhuumfire (and without those, there's no way it compares).

Consider for a moment that it only takes one Scepter auto chain to match the damage of a shade proc with Demonic Lore also triggering. In the 10 seconds minimum you would be in Dagger, that's 5 auto chains you're locked out of (assuming no Quickness). While you're in dagger, you can only possibly hit 3 Demonic Lore procs, so any other Shade skill uses are even less effective. Oh, and while in dagger, you don't get that 150 condition damage, so your shade procs compare even less favorably to Scepter auto.

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I did this in another thread, but it was ignored and here is an obviously better place:

As others have mentioned, scepter faces the issue of having poor LF gain, and their is a line where the gain of Shade DPS due to more LF gain is greater than the loss of Scepter DPS. Dagger passes that line, Staff unquestionable passes that line in multiple target situations, and it would take some number crunching to see if Axe passes that line.

Soul Reaping will essentially be a core line for most Scourge builds for Dhuumfire and VP cooldowns, so let's due some basic pre-live vacuum math! Note that this does not take into account after cast delays, whether casting skills during Desert Shroud even works, or other minor factors. This is simply early theory crafting to establish scope. I round down in all cases, so weapons like Axe or Warhorn show lower than what they really are over time.

How much Life Force would a Scourge spend spamming Shade skills over a minute?

Nefarious Favor - 4s CD traited - 1382 LF cost :: can cast ~15 times in 1 minSand Cascade - 6.4s CD traited - 2487 LF cost :: can cast ~9 times in 1 minGarish Pillar - 12s CD traited - 4606 LF cost :: can cast ~5 times in 1 minDesert Shroud - 16s CD traited - 3685 LF cost :: can cast 3-4 times in 1 min

(1382 15) + (2487 9) + (4606 5) + (3685 3) = 77,198

Your Life Force pool is affected by Vitality, so these numbers will also be affected by this, but to keep math simple and closer to a glass cannon build of 16,674

Over a 1 minute, the following weapons can gain:Dagger: 2.04s for attack cycle, 8% LF gain over attack cycle + .8% from Gluttony. 8.8% 16,674 = 1467 LF 29 attack cycles per min = 42,543 LF per min

Staff: 1.32s for attack cycle, 4% LF per attack + .4% from Gluttony. 4.4% 16,674 = 733 LF 45 attacks per min = 32,985 LF per min. This can be increased greatly by multiple targets.** Soul Marks is a LF gain on single targets, but loss as soon as you can hit 2+ targets with auto as you can't proc Mark LF more than once. Though using staff, you'll likely want this ability to keep LF up while using other skills. Too lazy to actually calculate this.

Axe: Gluttony gives 12% LF on an 8s CD. This can be traited to 6.4s, but Spite is in competition with Curses. 12% + 1.2% from Gluttony. 13.2% * 16,674 = 2,200.

  • Traited: 2,200 * 9 casts per min = 19,800 LF per min
  • Untraited: 2,200 * 7 casts per min = 15,400 LF per min

Scepter: 8% base + 1% per condi (5 cap) on 10s CD. 8.8 - 14.3% with Gluttony. 8.8% 16,674 = 1467. 14.3% 16,674 = 2,384. 6 casts per min give a range of 8,802 - 14,304 per min.

Offhand options:Focus: 3% number of targets hit (up to 5, and as it can self-bounce, is effective even on single target unless too far away) on a 15s CD. Can be traited to 12s with Spite, making it a good combo if building for Axe. 3.3 16,674 = 550 * 5 bounces = 2,750 LF.

  • Traited: 2,750 * 5 casts per min = 13,750 per min
  • Untraited: 2,750 * 4 casts per min = 11,000 per min

Warhorn: 1.5% number of targets hit 10 procs untrated and 15 traited on a 30s CD untraited or 24s CD Traited. This gives quite the range of potential on this skill. 1.6% * 16,674 = 266 LF per tick.

  • Traited: 266 15 ticks = 3,990 2 casts per min = 7,980 LF per min (multiplied by however many targets in melee range)
  • Untraited: 266 10 ticks = 2,660 2 casts per min = 5,320 LF per min (multiplied by however many targets in melee range)

This means the optimal LF gain on a single target is Dagger + Focus with Dagger + Warhorn swap. Though offhand gains would need to be calculated against offhand DPS options like Dagger and Torch as well.

Traited, Axe + Focus is stronger single target ranged LF gain than Staff, while Staff wins if Axe and Focus are not traited. Staff is best LF gain overall if you can hit multiple targets with auto often enough.

The only situation where Scepter can compete in the LF gain field is when used in swap-heavy rotations on targets with 5+ conditions as the 10s weapon swap CD would negate the Axe CD advantages. However losing Dagger auto is a huge LF loss even with the burst LF that Axe or Scepter can get, so as long as the Shade DPS loss would outweigh any DPS gain of Scepter, it becomes more of a question of how often can you not be in Melee range.

If people want it, I can throw in Utility numbers as well. All of this will really depend on where Shade DPS falls come live. I personally hope that it is high enough that people will build around life force rather than being just a supplement to Scepter auto.

@Drarnor - I think you're seriously underestimating Shade DPS. While a full 2.4s cast of Scepter auto may do more than a single cast of Manifest Shade, you can cast Manifest Shade 3 times in the time it takes to cast that scepter chain, which is at least double the damage of that chain (how much more depends on traits, enemy boons, etc). Doing dagger-auto during those castings is not 0 damage. In addition, Shade is AOE where Scepter is single target, and Shades can do more than just cast Burn and Torment. Preliminary testing shows Shade + Dagger > Scepter + Shade on single target DPS. Multiple targets it is not even a contest. We'll see more come live, though I am curious to see how Axe compares to Scepter on a Viper build for when you have to stay at range.

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You never want to cast Manifest Shade 3 times in a row. That might be more immediate damage, but then you have a period with no shades up at all. Ideally, you're putting up a shade every 10-12 seconds to ensure constantly having two shades up at all times.

All other F skills don't have a cast time, so obviously they don't detract from weapon-based DPS, but the damage difference is just that massive. 5 Scepter auto cycles are basically equivalent damage to Dagger auto + shade skill use. There's a negligible difference between them. However, that is only with no Alacrity or Quickness. Demonic Lore's cooldown is a hard limit; Alacrity doesn't make it come up any faster. With Quickness, now you're trying to compare those same Shade procs to another 2.5 auto cycles. Given each Scepter cycle is more damage than each dagger cycle, this widens the gap significantly in favor of Scepter. Once Alacrity kicks in and you start missing Grasping Dead and Feast of Corruption use, Dagger auto is truly dead in the water in comparison.

Now, is it better in AoE scenarios? Yes. If you are dealing with multi-target scenarios, then life force generation takes higher priority over raw weapon skill damage. Against a single target, you're better off never leaving Scepter.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:That might be more immediate damage, but then you have a period with no kitten up at all. Ideally, you're putting up a shade every 10-12 seconds to ensure constantly having two kitten up at all times.Going to assume kitten if the plural of shade. Without any alacrity you will at all times be able to have 1 shade up. Regardless of how you cast them.I also see you reference 5 sceptre auto chains constantly. Why?

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:That might be more immediate damage,
but then you have a period with no kitten up at all
. Ideally, you're putting up a shade every 10-12 seconds to ensure constantly having two kitten up at all times.Going to assume kitten if the plural of shade. Without any alacrity you will at all times be able to have 1 shade up. Regardless of how you cast them.

Yeah, the plural of "shade" is censored for some reason. Topics about Scourge will be very interesting...

And you are correct, one will recharge before the first dies,

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@Drarnor - I think you're misinterpreting what we're referring to with "Manifest Shade" procs. There is the F1 skill that summons the Shade, and the Shade pulse that comes off of the skill. That pulse happens with every single Shade skill. Per tool wiki:

Manifest a sand shade using some of your life force. Whenever you use a shade ability, you and your sand shades strike nearby foes.

Press F1 to summon a second Shade? First one and yourself pulses. Press F2? All active shades and yourself pulses... same with F3-5. You could have ZERO Shades up, and F2 - F5 are still useful pulsing the Manifest Shade damage in a PBAoE around yourself. It is why Soul Reaping is so critical - to lower the CDs of your Shade abilities along with the Dhuumfire ability. Unless you have a tough condi hit or burst you need to protect against, you want to be spamming F2, 3, and 5 on CD. F1 for shade placement for ranged/wider pressure and F4 for breakbar are the only skills you'll really be saving. As this thread discusses, Scepter can barely maintain the usage of F5 (which is the most efficient use of Life Force to DPS), let alone add in the other skills. From the numbers I've seen, being able to use most Shade skills on cooldown with use of a Dagger does more DPS than Scepter and F5 only. We're theory crafting based on that, though it will be PoF going live and more thorough testing that will give more conclusive numbers.

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I've said it before, F1's name is terrible, it implies the summoning of a shade, which it does, but the skill itself is also the action of pulsing out damage, when other shade skills are utilised.

Currently it implies the skill as 'summon with a byproduct of damage'

It should be renamed so that it implies 'damage, with a byproduct of a summon'

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