Conditions and what the most recent nerf actually did for wvw players

My guild and I, last we were playing recently had a small discussion about this. One Guildie said he actually feels like hes doing more damage now. And I believe him, as I can live through exactly one round of conditions against any decent players in a zerg v zerg type setting, and 2-3 rounds in smaller roaming play depending on player skill. On a Minstrials Condi clear bunker ele. Which is quite truthfully ridiculous. The Conditions forced me out of my cleric gear, just so I could have a build set up entirely to combat them, but yet I can still only combat them for a couple seconds? with every possible condi clear an staff ele can use.

So, since i'm not one to just shout nerf,nerf it! right away, or even to complain on the forums for that matter. I decided if I can not beat the conditions I would try joining them. I have after all been using a full viper/sin condi necro in fractals anyways. It has zero defense which is bad for wvw. But I took it to wvw anyways, and you know what happened? those fights I was losing as a bunker ele, who should've been able to buy time for her team for ages. I won. Easily, without trying, without even knowing exactly what i was doing. Turns out the only thing that really gives me any issues what so ever is a thief or a knockback rangers. Which is easily combated by having one other player with me.

So what I'm asking to be discussed I suppose, is can we please make the ramp up of conditions a bit slower?

"Which is easily combated by having one other player with me."Same here, easily combated when a zerg is with me. xDAbout your concern : melee must be able to have sustain to mitigate : direct damages (blocks, invu, regen, heals, damage reduction) condition damages (resistance, higher vitality, regen, heals, cleanse) control (stability, break stuns) movement impairements (cleanse, resistance, condi duration reduction)When a range class just have to worry about positionning and doing enough DPS to take out ennemy before their frontline exhausted all their options. xDAnet reduced the spike damages from conditions in scenario of small and middle scale fights. In wvw it's a very large scale fight and the amount of condi still have the potential to burst down melee frontline. (because multiple sources exponential cap condi faster than any ramping nerf scenario can implement in very large scale fights)The only way to make it less impactfull would be to have a stat that would reduce the intensity of the condition damages per second. (-x% condition damage related stat like toughness reduce power based damages) BUT then such stat would pretty much make condition very much less efficient in small and medium scale fights...

I really don't notice a difference with the change, which makes sense considering condi still does the same damage (just not all at once) Part of the reason so much condi gets played is because they can throw the hate and then stay at a safe distance while the target still takes damage (very low risk, with same reward), where as power requires you to stay engaged within range the entire fight (higher risk, same reward).

IMO the best option to even out the playing field would be to require the condi player to stay within 1200 range of their target while the condi's do their thing, if they leave that range- their condi's stop damaging. This would force condi players out of the low risk zone.

@fieraviolet.3160 said:My guild and I, last we were playing recently had a small discussion about this. One Guildie said he actually feels like hes doing more damage now. And I believe him, as I can live through exactly one round of conditions against any decent players in a zerg v zerg type setting, and 2-3 rounds in smaller roaming play depending on player skill.

Are you saying this changed with the latest condi patch? As, before you were able to survive for longer?

Today my mom and I logged into wvw on our condi necros and whoa!! No burst at all lololol. We asked peter our neighbour who played condi as well and he said yes no burst omgbbq. Then I switched to my hammer rev and bam bam pow. So much insta-downed no funny at all. Why, why u do this. I play all classes and playstyle who likely get nerfed but no nerf pls no

FogLeg , Yes before the so called condi nerf. I could get more clears off in a zerg v zerg setting, and almost never died in solo/small group roaming. Something that may be also important here, as quite often I was leading the zerg, so taking the alot of the intial bomb. I could of course live slightly longer, if I were not the tag.

Titan, I did not mean a zerg. As I had not tried zerg play as a scourge, I have enough friends who said they were playing them in zerg play simply because it was a join them or lose to them scenario. I was doing on my scourge only solo roaming, and occasionally teaming up with 1-2 other players on my home map.

As I've observed especially when playing rev that because of resistance being a boon that is easily removed now that pretty much when you get conditions there is very little you can do to "counterplay" as anet put it. The only reason rev was ever good in wvw was with mallyx just because of that boon so due to the joke of 1 condi clear on two traits you can only clear one every 10 seconds is bit of a joke when condi's are constantly being applied. Then too the renegade elite spec is so much worse for sustain as well as damage when its basically a pve only elite spec because in wvw you can never count on everyone being stacked tight on that one location and not moving. I've tried the condition damage reduction it seemed to work somewhat but not reliable before the patch and now it feels like the traits do not even work.

Plus the condi problem has been a huge problem for so long traits like the one that does 3% more damage based on how many conditions are on you most of the time you die before you can even see the difference if it even works for all. Then there is the healing one based on conditions but its only like 120 health vs the thousands of condi damage you are taking in per second. I love to play rev but ever since pof launched its been more and more downsides that pretty much you are going to go down if you come across another player especially if they are using condi's. Which it may be intentional if anet just wants it to be a pve class which is the way it is looking right now.

It's because they are doing more damage; it's a case of players should have thought long and hard before complaining. Lets be real here, when people are talking conditions they are talking scourge, or at least the vast majority of the time they are talking scourge. Scourge deals torment en mass, and torment does more damage the more people move around. Condition time has been lengthened in favor of reducing burstiness which has to be done to keep things equal (condition deals the same damage over time that physical does in 1 hit). The fact that torment has been lengthened means that unless people are constantly and actively clearing, they are going to be taking hella damage moving around because they always have torment on them. You can click on any enemy around the battle field at any given time and they always seem to have torment. People also have to factor in that some classes deal more damage for each condition an enemy has on them.

People failed to realize this before, it's not that conditions are a problem, it's when multiple classes are dumping conditions on 1 person. This is no different than a bunch melee attacking 1 player at a time or a bunch of range focusing down someone at a time. Same as standing under multiple meteor showers, it's all the same.

The complaining players basically shot themselves in the foot with this one because there is nowhere else Anet can go with conditions now. They have no track record of reversing things, and conditions get exponentially worse the longer you lengthen them and their damage has to be equal to that of physical but over time. If they reduce damage and lengthen them further; one could have 20-30 seconds of constant torment and confusion at any given time; have fun with that one. You want the conditions bursty, that way you don't have to deal with the ones whom deal extra damage on movement or skill use.

Then how do you deal with scourges? Easy, get off melee and grab a ranged class, easy peasy.

^ actually anet can implement a sigil which pulses full condition clears every x second. Never test anet.

"All conditions on you are cleared. This pulses every 3seconds"

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:The complaining players basically shot themselves in the foot with this one because there is nowhere else Anet can go with conditions now.

What kind of an argument is that? "Yes conditions were out of control, but anet didn't make them better, so it's your fault for complaining in the first place":trollface:It wasn't just large scale that was/is a problem, conditions in general were and that had/has a lot of causes. Those who complained thought anet would work on the reasons, and anet went the easy way out once again. Not the players fault.

@Jana.6831 said:

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:The complaining players basically shot themselves in the foot with this one because there is nowhere else Anet can go with conditions now.

What kind of an argument is that? "Yes conditions were out of control, but anet didn't make them better, so it's your fault for complaining in the first place":trollface:It wasn't just large scale that was/is a problem, conditions in general were and that had/has a lot of causes. Those who complained thought anet would work on the reasons, and anet went the easy way out once again. Not the players fault.

Look at your argument first. Easy way lmao.

it's so easy to say others took the easy way out when you weren't even the one implementing or looking at things as a whole.

In fact, I would imagine changing 2 numbers was more difficult than changing one. What happened was the number of condi stacks got reduced and the second property was that condi dura is now longer to balance it up. Wouldn't it have been easier to just reduce condition stacks and left it as that rather than taking 1 more step to increase the dura?

In fact, the easiest way out is to remove all condi and replace everyone with sticks. power sticks. and horses and lances as well since btw.

From my observation, it was nerf in group play... u cant be bursted down so fast, so time to cleanse. I also changed my trailblazer scourge into celestial coz TB is now good against really bad group. Lot of time im running on my heal minstrel firebrand (heal boon machine, lot of cleanse also), or sometimes i pick my minstrel tempest, but forget staff... learn to use dagger+ warhorn (more heal) ... and u need to learn how to survive... if i die... its coz i fak up, or my group is dead.

@fieraviolet.3160 said:My guild and I, last we were playing recently had a small discussion about this. One Guildie said he actually feels like hes doing more damage now. And I believe him, as I can live through exactly one round of conditions against any decent players in a zerg v zerg type setting, and 2-3 rounds in smaller roaming play depending on player skill. On a Minstrials Condi clear bunker ele. Which is quite truthfully ridiculous. The Conditions forced me out of my cleric gear, just so I could have a build set up entirely to combat them, but yet I can still only combat them for a couple seconds? with every possible condi clear an staff ele can use.

So, since i'm not one to just shout nerf,nerf it! right away, or even to complain on the forums for that matter. I decided if I can not beat the conditions I would try joining them. I have after all been using a full viper/sin condi necro in fractals anyways. It has zero defense which is bad for wvw. But I took it to wvw anyways, and you know what happened? those fights I was losing as a bunker ele, who should've been able to buy time for her team for ages. I won. Easily, without trying, without even knowing exactly what i was doing. Turns out the only thing that really gives me any issues what so ever is a thief or a knockback rangers. Which is easily combated by having one other player with me.

So what I'm asking to be discussed I suppose, is can we please make the ramp up of conditions a bit slower?

M I N I S T R E L | E L E in late 2k17. Good meme

@"Blood.5607" said:M I N I S T R E L | E L E in late 2k17. Good memeyou sir "i never played anything else then spoken meta...."Just try that, i have ventari minstreal, tempest minstrel and firebrand minstrel and switching between them... each of them have something special, ventari was little nerfed month ago... ele still viable but harder to play then fb boonbot

@intox.6347 said:

@"Blood.5607" said:M I N I S T R E L | E L E in late 2k17. Good memeyou sir "i never played anything else then spoken meta...."Just try that, i have ventari minstreal, tempest minstrel and firebrand minstrel and switching between them... each of them have something special, ventari was little nerfed month ago... ele still viable but harder to play then fb boonbot

I played ministrel ventari in WvW for a while as well while it had its reign xp... was extremely fun for its fat heals and alacarity on siege... But yeh u rite, not meta

one problem i see is sometimes ppl panice and so they keep moving when torment is on them, thus ends their hp quickly.

keep calm. cleanse together, dont reapply boons. boon up only when enemy not many scourges.

@Sovereign.1093 said:one problem i see is sometimes ppl panice and so they keep moving when torment is on them, thus ends their hp quickly.

keep calm. cleanse together, dont reapply boons. boon up only when enemy not many scourges.

This is why the speelbreaker heal remove both conditions AND boons on self. No boon = no corrupt...

@Titan.3472 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:one problem i see is sometimes ppl panice and so they keep moving when torment is on them, thus ends their hp quickly.

keep calm. cleanse together, dont reapply boons. boon up only when enemy not many scourges.

ally spell does not remove your boons only enemy winds.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Titan.3472 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:one problem i see is sometimes ppl panice and so they keep moving when torment is on them, thus ends their hp quickly.

keep calm. cleanse together, dont reapply boons. boon up only when enemy not many scourges.

Speelbreaker heal : "Natural Healing" : Lose boons and conditions, then heal yourself

@Titan.3472 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Titan.3472 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:one problem i see is sometimes ppl panice and so they keep moving when torment is on them, thus ends their hp quickly.

keep calm. cleanse together, dont reapply boons. boon up only when enemy not many scourges.

my bad. ya, thats correct.

I don't see a problem with the change, I actually like it. I didn't play for a month or two so I jumped right back in with power Mirage (didn't use any food|buff). Met a mithril something condi scourge in enemy camp and made her dead (she didn't actually stand a chance, because I could easily keep my distance and still get damage in). Met a platinum something PU condi mesmer in enemy camp. Made her dead once, later she made me dead once^^ then I got bored of GW2 again...

From what I gathered in this 3 fights (pure 1v1 small scale perspective):

• more time to get damage in, before cleansing is needed
• cleansing is now easier, can be better planed
• slow condi ramp can cause condies to go unnoticed until cleanse attempt actually kills you through confusion stacks^^ (how I lost last fight)

The last point might be also relevant for torment. Because torment hits less per second it might go unnoticed too and the cursed player keeps happily running around without really perceiving the extra damage ticks.

Your right about the minstrial ele thing, its useless as is current unless i'm in a large group. And yes I can play other classes, i'm not nearly as good at them. I can't fb at all thats for sure. I do have a base guardian, I will sometimes use. However ever since HoT the game has been about clearing condi's. One of my guildies after reading this post, realized her FB does not actually focus on healing like she intially thought but Condi clearing. Meaning she could not take some traits she'd like to be able to, or do any cc things with her weapons alot of the time, due to having to camp out in "x" tome, to clear the condis. The Condi's got far worse with PoF. And as for the person who said they intend it for PVE, your right, its quite obvious they do. Which is the only reason I even have a fully geared up scourge, it was a fully geared up condi reaper before. I run fractals on it, do I want it to be nerfed in PVE? No, not really. I do however understand the sacrifice of it being nerfed a little, must be made so fighting is fun again. With the Meta the way it has been since PoF dropped , there is no do "x" see results, try "x" , etc to see how wins. Its do "x" or die. Perhaps Condi's do not need a blanket nerf at all and that is where its going wrong. I for instance have little trouble if I walk into a condi Mesmer, or druid. Renegade dmg , the majority of the time is laughable. Some mesmer skills are different in wvw and pve. Perhaps thats all it would take with scourge as well.

Power scourge was they way to go pre-nerf, and now even moreso. You get your burst, but don't count on the condi application to do most of your damage. Before the nerf decent groups pretty much brushed off condis anyway, which is why I switched to it more than a month ago. The nerf didn't change my numbers :)

If you're still complaining about condi now that the initial condi burst has been reduced by 50% how did you ever play prior to the change???