Defining Condition Spam

So Condition spam is the ability to reapply conditions, it is called spam regardless of CD or set up required. As I have read multiple threads in the past couple of months that talk about condition spam. Now i just want to point out conditions are how condition classes do damage if your getting hit by a condition class YOUR GOING TO GET A CONDITION it has nothing to do with spam IT HOW THE CLASS WORKS please take the term spam out of your language and actually talk about the skills being used and the flow of the fight. Pressing buttons in a rotation to do the most damage isn't spamming its playing the game.

Also why is power not held up to the same standard, you can't stop power classes from hitting over and over so why do i hear nothing about power spam or arrow spam? Why is it that i don't hear about the power equiv of my class (mirage) Spaming clones to gs 2 shatter to 100 to 0 folks, but i gotta hear about that memser who just set up 3 clones and burned like 4-5 cd's to drop that 30 stacks of consfuse? You can just cleanse or take no action, and by the way you cannot do that same combo again atleast for 30 seconds f2 cd is serious guys.

Describing things as spam does nothing but prove how bad of a player you are since u can't articulate your grievances so do all of us a favor and actually describe what's happening to instead of calling it spam i'm sure Anet would appreciate it so they can actually in-act good informed decisions on the game because they were given advice from good informed people from the the forums.

And Before you nit pick on about mirage's i picked them is because i know them the most.This applies toReapers vs ScourgeCondi theives vs Power theivesPower Revs vs Condition RevEtc etc the game at large Keep in mind the majority of the classes in spvp/wvw have crap condition builds

Edited : Auto correct nonsense from my phone.

Conditions were a mistake.

You literally proved nothing here.Conditions do the same amount of damage(when they are ramped up). You still hit hard with power otherwise(which you do have even in a condi build). This is what conditions should have been before the game was even released.

@Nick Lentz.6982 said:You literally proved nothing here.Conditions do the same amount of damage(when they are ramped up). You still hit hard with power otherwise. This is what conditions should have been before the game was even released.

I'm talking about the term condition spam and that's your response? Can you at least read the post before you comment? I don't wanna be rude but your not making it easy man.

I am not sure what you are trying to clarify. Not much clarity in this post.

But, if I interpret this muddled post correctly, then I think you are being critical of folks who have been critical of condi builds? I think "condi spam" is a term used for the fact that there was no downside to conditions. This was because the intended design was for there to be a significant ramp time to conditioner damage, which had basically disappeared, so in 3 seconds, condition builds did the same or more damage than power, and over long fights, condition blew power out of the water. The term "spam" or "bomb" probably came from the fact that these condi builds could kill you really quickly with abilities that were meant to slowly drain health... and if they are cleansed, they are just thrown right back on you (i.e. "spam").

@Genesis.5169 said:

@Nick Lentz.6982 said:You literally proved nothing here.Conditions do the same amount of damage(when they are ramped up). You still hit hard with power otherwise. This is what conditions should have been before the game was even released.

So you're nitpicking terms.Like transmog. Or transmute.Or class and job.

This also is cleary a rant because your precious condi was set in its rightful place. Pick a lane, and stick to what you're trying to say.Power builds can't be spammed, unless they follow a CC.You can face smash a keyboard in a condition build and expect a win.

Power does not cling to you like an ugly relative and keep hurting you.

condi spam, any skill that applies 3 or more conditions and has less than a 30 sec cooldown.(so is impossible to cleanse) number of skillsnumber of players =?

There's little point to arguing about jargon terms. The OP is technically correct that "condi spam" is a terrible phrase to describe ordinary condition builds (as the OP says: the very point of a condi build is to, you know, apply conditions — the more, the better). It's meant to be an insult: everyone hates spam, lots of people hate conditions in the first place, so "condi spam" must be even worse, right?

And the OP is also correct that a lot of people don't like fighting condi because they aren't good at it, not because there's any fundamental problem with the mechanic.

But regardless of whether the term makes sense, it is the term that people use; it's too late to go back and convince everyone to change it: it's not offensive, just inappropriate. Greenland is icier than Iceland (by far), but there's pretty much no chance the Brits or Americans are going to change what they call those islands at this date.

tl;dr OP might be correct, but it no longer matters: "condi spam" is what people call both the intended/appropriate use of condi as well as the mindless over-use of conditions (which might or might not have been intended by ANet to be a thing).

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:There's little point to arguing about jargon terms. The OP is technically correct that "condi spam" is a terrible phrase to describe ordinary condition builds (as the OP says: the very point of a condi build is to, you know, apply conditions — the more, the better). It's meant to be an insult: everyone hates spam, lots of people hate conditions in the first place, so "condi spam" must be even worse, right?

And the OP is also correct that a lot of people don't like fighting condi because they aren't good at it, not because there's any fundamental problem with the mechanic.

But regardless of whether the term makes sense, it is the term that people use; it's too late to go back and convince everyone to change it: it's not offensive, just inappropriate. Greenland is icier than Iceland (by far), but there's pretty much no chance the Brits or Americans are going to change what they call those islands at this date.

tl;dr OP might be correct, but it no longer matters: "condi spam" is what people call both the intended/appropriate use of condi as well as the mindless over-use of conditions (which might or might not have been intended by ANet to be a thing).

I disagree, we can change it all people need to do is ask to define spam or simply tell others not to do it eventually it will take shape. And something as important like balance feedback should be a little bit more then "i got spammed with conditions then i died" especially since we are in one of the few MMO where the devs are active on the forums.

@"Genesis.5169" said:I disagree, we can change it all people need to do is ask to define spam or simply tell others not to do it eventually it will take shape. And something as important like balance feedback should be a little bit more then "i got spammed with conditions then i died" especially since we are in one of the few MMO where the devs are active on the forums.

People who hate conditions aren't going to stop using pejoratives just because someone tells them not to. There's a reason the inaccurate terminology persists.

And further, ANet doesn't care what we call it. They aren't going to balance differently because a bunch of anti-condi people made up a negative term.

One can't impose language choices on others (or at least, not without an Orwellian level of control, which ANet doesn't have). People are going to use terms that make sense to them, even if it doesn't crank your biscuits.

By Anet's own admission (they are the folks who designed this game, fwiw), conditions applied damage much quicker than they intended (the ramp ups was negligible considering the increased dps over power builds) ... this effect is what people are referring to with the term "Condi Spam" ... I am still not sure what the main thesis is with this post.

@"Genesis.5169" said:So Condition spam is the ability to reapply conditions, it is called spam regardless of CD or set up required. As I have read multiple threads in the past couple of months that talk about condition spam. Now i just want to point out conditions are how condition classes do damage if your getting hit by a condition class YOUR GOING TO GET A CONDITION it has nothing to do with spam IT HOW THE CLASS WORKS please take the term spam out of your language and actually talk about the skills being used and the flow of the fight. Pressing buttons in a rotation to do the most damage isn't spamming its playing the game.

Also why is power not held up to this same standard, you can't stop power classes from hitting over and over so why do i hear nothing about power spam or arrow spam? Why is it that i don't hear about the power equiv of my class (mirage) Spaming clones to gs 2 shatter to 100 to 0 folks, but i gotta hear about that memser who just set up 3 clones and burned like 4-5 cd's to drop that 30 stacks of consfuse? You can just cleanse or take no action, and by the way you cannot do that same combo again atleast for 30 seconds f2 cd is serious guys.

Describing things as spam does nothing but prove how bad of a player you are since u can't articulate your grievances so do all of us a favor and actually describe what's happening to instead of calling it spam i'm sure Anet would appreciate it so they can actually in-act good informed decisions on the game because they were given advice from good informed people from the the forums.

And Before you nit pick on about mirage's i picked them is because i know them the most.This applies toReapers vs ScourgeCondi theives vs Power theivesPower Revs vs Condition RevEtc etc the game at large Keep in mind the majority of the classes in spvp/wvw have crap condition builds

Edited : Auto correct nonsense from my phone.

Hello,

I mostly agree with what you're saying, with only two reservations :

• I don't think the "spam" is only an issue of having a frequent application. As you're saying, a condi build is supposed to apply condies. Then, I'm more inclined to think the thing that infuriates people is the frequent re- application. Like : you burn your cleanses, and the very same condis are back in a glimpse.
• I wouldn't compare condi application with "standard power skills" ; rather to stuns actually. The "condi-spam" seems closer than the stunlock ability, burning cleanse = burning stunbreakers, etc.

Now, as some others have stated, conditions are in the game, and eventhough they've got many flaws (and I'm the first one to regret the old hexes system), they also need to be able to provide builds with a significant effectivity. That will never prevent anyone to state things like : "A stunlock+power burst that downs you in 2s whatever stunbreakers you use is far better than a condi burst that downs you in 2s whatever cleanses you use because it's skilled play."

This isn't a balance discuss guys, stop trying to make it one. This is a discussion about people using bad terms to hide their ability for counter play. For those who agree i thank you but we will solve nothing if we allow posters to say condition spam and give them a free pass, quote them ask them to define spam so people who are condition users can properly defend or not defend there class.

Just because it's there doesn't mean you allow it, ask the person to define what they mean by spam then continue the conversation, if they refuse they refuse but atleast you know they have no clue what they are talking about when they said this is OP nerf it.

@"Genesis.5169" said:This isn't a balance discuss guys, stop trying to make it one. This is a discussion about people using bad terms to hide their ability for counter play. For those who agree i thank you but we will solve nothing we allow posters to say condition spam and give them a free pass quote them ask them to define spam so people who are condition users can properly defend or not defend there class.

Just because it's there doesn't mean you allow it, ask the person to define what they mean by spam then continue the conversation, if they refuse they refuse but atleast you know they have no clue what they are talking about when they said this is OP nerf it.

Spam = action per unit of time against(over?) a threshold.

Just define the threshold, and voila. A definition for "spam." Of course, it's more complicated than that especially when you throw in what people "feel" is spam as opposed to what the actual "rate of spam" is.

If it were me, I'd rather condi have served the same function it did in GW1 where it was capped and meant to be spread out. Now (as far as pve is concern) power and condi get optimized for single target dps on w.e. Damage Sponge Boss. "Ramping up" hardly changes the strategy too much. We still press 11111.

A sword that doesn´t hit you, deals no damage (usually if the ability is programmed right)Conditions tick regardless, they have to be applied in the first place though.

@Arzurag.7506 said:A sword that doesn´t hit you, deals no damage (usually if the ability is programmed right)Conditions tick regardless, they have to be applied in the first place though.

If a condition doesn't hit you it does no damage either, exactly what stunt are you trying to pull here?

Note, I've never used the words 'condition spam'. However, part of the problem is that people have different ideas of what is considered spam and what is considered condi spam.For example, some may consider spam simply being able to apply too many condis in a given period of time. Instead of damage per second, condis per second.Others may consider spam in terms of specific skills. For example, they may not necessarily consider spam in terms of condis per second but in terms of AoE condi fields per second or other given period of time (a class should only have access to so much AoE condi).Others may consider spam the ability to win against many opponents by just pressing damage buttons without setting anything up or thinking ahead.

Now, I'm just going to take a phrase you wrote in your first paragraph."Now i just want to point out conditions are how condition classes do damage if your getting hit by a condition class YOUR GOING TO GET A CONDITION it has nothing to do with spam IT HOW THE CLASS WORKS please take the term spam out of your language and actually talk about the skills being used and the flow of the fight. Pressing buttons in a rotation to do the most damage isn't spamming its playing the game."

Now, many people may also think CC spam is being able to apply too much CC per time period and getting good results for doing so. Lets just replace condition with CC in the paragraph you wrote."Now i just want to point out CC is how lockdown classes do damage if your fighting a Lockdown class YOUR GOING TO GET A CC it has nothing to do with spam IT HOW THE CLASS WORKS please take the term spam out of your language and actually talk about the skills being used and the flow of the fight. Pressing buttons in a rotation to do the most CC isn't spamming its playing the game."

However, stating this would not mean that too much CC isn't necessarily bad for the game. Similarly, the first unchanged statement would not mean that the ability to apply too many condis would be bad for the game.Hypothetically, lets say we took a class/build like condi necro and gave it even more ways to apply condis. It could also apply a greater range of condis. With this build, a player who is new to the game could take that necro class and using this build just by "spamming condi damage buttons" win against any class or build in the game.This build would undoubtedly be bad for the game. By many player's standards, it would also be as close as we could to classify it as 'condi spam'. However, even if such an undoubtedly unhealthy build was in the game, it still wouldn't change what you wrote in that paragraph.This build would still use conditions to do damage, conditions would be how this build works, some players could play the build with better rotations than others. However, this would not change the fact that others who are new to the game could take the build, mash buttons, and win.

"Describing things as spam does nothing but prove how bad of a player you are since u can't articulate your grievances so do all of us a favor and actually describe what's happening to instead of calling it spam i'm sure Anet would appreciate it so they can actually in-act good informed decisions on the game because they were given advice from good informed people from the the forums."Attack the argument, not the person. A reasonable discussion is no place for logical fallacies like Ad hominem attacks.

Finally, going back to mesmer since you mentioned it. In the mesmer forums you actively asked someone to define 'condition spam'. However, when they did use the term 'condition spam', it was in reference to Infinite Horizon ambush attacks. It was not in reference simply just to Cry of Frustration.Even if this build is not meta, if a mirage would take an axe or scepter into pvp, summon clones, and just continuously dodges and uses ambush attacks to apply mass amounts of condis, then I would consider this condi spam. However, this is totally different than a mesmer who is just able to apply condis using Cry of Frustration. You can't use a 30s cool down on cry of frustration as a good argument since that is by far not the only way condi mirage can apply conditions. Yes, cry of frustration applies the most conditions. However, ambush attacks can apply conditions, jaunt can apply conditions, torch applies conditions, sigil of Doom applies conditions, blinds can apply conditions (which with blinding dissipation works on every shatter skill), and Illusionary Retribution and Maim the Disillusioned allows condi application on EVERY shatter skill.Why isn't power mesmer counted as power spam. Well, for starters, power mesmers cannot in any way apply power damage with Every single shatter. If the Illusionary Retribution and Maim the Disillusioned traits were only applied to Cry of Frustration and Mind Wrack instead of all 4 shatters (even the ones originally specifically designed for cc and defense) then we could talk more. This is one of the reasons power mesmer didn't work as good as condi with chrono. It is also one of the reason people complained about 'shatter spam' with chrono so much. Condis could be applied with every single shatter at much faster pace than they could before.

@Xstein.2187

Your post is really long so i'm not gonna quote it there's a lot to unpack here but ill try to be brief.

The term CC spam doesn't exist or is so rarely used its under my radar CC is a non-issue in this game your trying to compare something that doesn't exist to something that does and that's wrong. Sorry you can't bring up a non meta spec which no one uses that can easily be countered and is hard to pull of (3 clone ambush attack with all axes hitting and the enemy no dodging or cleaving the clones before hand) and then say there's my proof.

Your post is filled with mis-equating or just straight up making things up, if you gonna post, post but ground your comments in some kinda facts somewhere man no one can debate against outright lies and mistruths.

Condition spam is applying to skills that inflict mulitple conditions at once and the reapplying speed is high.

It is okay to have skills that stack one single condition damage type high and fast. Like burn guard, the burn is real deal but there are counter play as the cover condition is almost non existent, the burn can be removed, so a burn guard has to bait cleanse.

Conditon spam is skills that inflict 3-5 different conditions at once and there are so many covering conditions and even cleansing mechine like FB cannot survive for long, let alone classes that are not good at condition removal.

I understand condition class need condition to deal damage, everyone agrees about it. It is condition spam needed to go, just reduce condition types can be punch out by each class, reduce some condition AoE capacity, reduce some boon corruption and we are good to go.

Isn't it basically there is easy access to lots of stacking conditions which they did change last patch. Some people can do 4 stacks of three or four conditions in a couple attacks. And with certain professions they can do stacks of practically all conditions in one go. Given the mass of conditions, many professions don't have that level of condi cleanse. The only current condi spam I'm getting tired of mobs that put multiple conditions on you in one attack and the conditions take large amounts of time to cleanse. A mob you kill quickly gives you a condition for 9+ seconds makes it so you can't mount or move at a normal pace just moving around in the map.

Look in PvE yes make Conditions stackable, but in the PvP enviroment Conditions should not stack to the point in which they do now, 10 stacks of burning on a player let alone any condition is overkill ramp it up to 22 which some classes can do and its just nonsense. Look when it comes to us players, I think players since were not categorized as NPC's in the Data code. Should have stack limits on which can be stacked on a player itself, this would fix the problem with PvP and WvW and make both game modes more balanced and put back the "Skill" in Condi.

@Genesis.5169 said:@Xstein.2187

Your post is really long so i'm not gonna quote it there's a lot to unpack here but ill try to be brief.

The term CC spam doesn't exist or is so rarely used its under my radar CC is a non-issue in this game your trying to compare something that doesn't exist to something that does and that's wrong. Sorry you can't bring up a non meta spec which no one uses that can easily be countered and is hard to pull of (3 clone ambush attack with all axes hitting and the enemy no dodging or cleaving the clones before hand) and then say there's my proof.

Your post is filled with mis-equating or just straight up making things up, if you gonna post, post but ground your comments in some kinda facts somewhere man no one can debate against outright lies and mistruths.

1. ???? So you are saying CC spam doesn't exist, so I shouldn't compare it to Condi spam, which does exist, in order to argue your point that Condi spam doesn't exist? Weather or not you believe CC spam exist doesn't really matter. I only brought up the comparison to show how your argument for why Condi spam is a bad term or doesn't exist is flawed. If you can't understand my point for why your argument was bad based on the CC spam example, continue to read my necro build section, as it is another attempt for me to explain to you why your first paragraph argument is flawed and is not really a reason why condi spam doesn't or can't exist.

2. Just because something is not meta does not mean its not proof and does not mean its not an example of what most people would call condi spam.

3. My post does have facts. If you are going to say I am lying or have mistruths than please point out exactly what they are.

My solution bring back power meta XD i miss it

@Genesis.5169 said:

@Arzurag.7506 said:A sword that doesn´t hit you, deals no damage (usually if the ability is programmed right)Conditions tick regardless, they have to be applied in the first place though.

Once applied they keep ticking but they don´t hit, nor is there the need to hit perpetually to deal damage.As I wrote, they have to be applied in the first place but once that´s done, basically you are damaged by invisible attacks.Only an icon up your bar tells you, where the damage is coming from.

My previous post refered to the second part of your post btw.