How ruin pvp 101 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How ruin pvp 101

Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited December 22, 2017 in Professions

It is almost half year since PoF release. Every point in pvp matches is flooded with puddles of death and unkillable mesmers stacking confusion which punish you for cleansing condis.
We recently had patch that was supposed to address condition damage but it didn't at all. It only nerfed underplayed specs and specs that literary ruin pvp/wvw right now remained untouched/unaffected by change.

I have to ask, why does balance team designs the classes the way that some are literary pay2win (scourge/mirage) and other gets harassed by teammates simply for existing (thief/revenant)? Nobody wants to play game like this.

Dear devs, right now, based on your choices it looks like you are systematically trying to kill pvp/wvw. Is this what you are trying to do? Please tell us. What are your goals actually?
How did you come to conclusion that spamming huge, instant, causing nearly instant death, low CD circles on conquest points is definition of balance? How did you come to conclusion that UC was overtuned and needed a heavy nerf but EM (which is arguably way better) is fine?

GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

Comments

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd hate to see the nerf requests if a vanilla necro and mesmer would kill people after nerfs to scourge and mirage.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MarkoNS.3261 said:
    you know what they should do a hard split on every skill in pve and pvp and balance it like that, like they did in gw1 the far superior game to this.

    Anet will never do it cause that would kill class on PVE side ;P

  • @Alatar.7364 said:
    It feels the same as if you'd see someone beating a Puppy... Why, just why... Why is this happening. Answer won't come, you'll be just left to continue your existence in absolute confusion.
    I'd much rather be flamed and proved wrong, be embarrassed by Devs than to sit here in this terrible silence, watching these "patches" arrive, not knowing why is this happening to us.

    Brutal but how I feel too.

  • I'm starting to believe balance is making things overpowered and underpowered for periods of time just for the sake of keeping things fresh.

    Honestly it wouldn't be that hard for them to tweak the numbers where everything was near equal but that obviously is not the goal when some things are arbitrarily deemed too OP for one class but perfectly fine for another. I won't give examples but if you have been paying attention to balance you will see what I mean.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    Sigh,
    Please learn the play the game.
    Stop trying to face tank sand shroud like a moron.
    Wait for the confuse and cleanse it once we spike confuse on you once we cannot do that again for 40seconds.
    Range the Necro down if your too impatient.
    Don't have a range weapon wait sand shroud to go down if the necro runs out of life force necro cannot shroud.
    Please learn to play.

    Please.

    Thanks.
    Signed,
    Lythim

    Your friendly neighborhood mesmer/engineer/gaurdian/elementalist/revenant

    I like your oversimplification of things

    Signed,
    absolute nobody

    Your friendly neighborhood warrior/thief/necro/mesmer/engineer/revenant/elementalist/guardian/ranger

    Its really is that simple.
    Axe 2, F2 and ambush is the confuse. (Cry of frustration is on a 40+ second cd with a 3clone prerequisite)
    All of which have high tells.
    Mirages aren't necro's we can't cover our conditions with a kitten ton of useless kitten like necros can, so when you cleanse your gonna get the confuse and the torment and the bleed.

    I understand this might be a little crazy, that the class that you convinced your self is OP actually isn't OP and damage can mostly be negated in one skill for 40seconds, but its true, you should log onto your mesmer and look at the cd for Cry of frustration. You should take a look at Elusive Mind too because were aren't gonna spam ambush for those stacks cause we need a clear. Jaunt is only 3 stacks and we need to use that to for escaping at best outside of Axe 2 and f2 burst rotations your gonna get hit with a maximum of 8-10 stacks of confuse and that pushing it because we would have to lane jaunt axe 2 and ambush respectively with zero counterplay from you.

    Truely, you should actually just look at mesmer cooldowns.
    Or not, and continue to be dominated by them.

    It really is a Learn to play issue, just remember we cannot cover our conditions with kitten like weakness/chill/poison etc your generally gonna see bleed,torment,confuse,blind, auto the blind of or don't depends if you of confuse on you already or don't and cleanse, most cleanses are 2 or more conditions remember you can cleasne 20 stacks of confuse with one cleanse.

    Thanks for reading!

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like trains

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    Sigh,
    Please learn the play the game.
    Stop trying to face tank sand shroud like a moron.
    Wait for the confuse and cleanse it once we spike confuse on you once we cannot do that again for 40seconds.
    Range the Necro down if your too impatient.
    Don't have a range weapon wait sand shroud to go down if the necro runs out of life force necro cannot shroud.
    Please learn to play.

    Please.

    Thanks.
    Signed,
    Lythim

    Your friendly neighborhood mesmer/engineer/gaurdian/elementalist/revenant

    I like your oversimplification of things

    Signed,
    absolute nobody

    Your friendly neighborhood warrior/thief/necro/mesmer/engineer/revenant/elementalist/guardian/ranger

    Its really is that simple.
    Axe 2, F2 and ambush is the confuse. (Cry of frustration is on a 40+ second cd with a 3clone prerequisite)
    All of which have high tells.
    Mirages aren't necro's we can't cover our conditions with a kitten ton of useless kitten like necros can, so when you cleanse your gonna get the confuse and the torment and the bleed.

    I understand this might be a little crazy, that the class that you convinced your self is OP actually isn't OP and damage can mostly be negated in one skill for 40seconds, but its true, you should log onto your mesmer and look at the cd for Cry of frustration. You should take a look at Elusive Mind too because were aren't gonna spam ambush for those stacks cause we need a clear. Jaunt is only 3 stacks and we need to use that to for escaping at best outside of Axe 2 and f2 burst rotations your gonna get hit with a maximum of 8-10 stacks of confuse and that pushing it because we would have to lane jaunt axe 2 and ambush respectively with zero counterplay from you.

    Truely, you should actually just look at mesmer cooldowns.
    Or not, and continue to be dominated by them.

    It really is a Learn to play issue, just remember we cannot cover our conditions with kitten like weakness/chill/poison etc your generally gonna see bleed,torment,confuse,blind, auto the blind of or don't depends if you of confuse on you already or don't and cleanse, most cleanses are 2 or more conditions remember you can cleasne 20 stacks of confuse with one cleanse.

    Thanks for reading!

    We are talking Meta Build of Mirage, not the custom Build that you are obviously running for your own. As, judging by the posts on entire Forums, we can Safely assume people are not Talking about Your self-made build.
    I am going to presume you did not know that because I don't believe anybody would intentionaly state False Facts that can be so easily checked.

    1. EVERY shatter skill inflicts Confusion (and Blindness and Torment)
    2. Cry of Frustration has a CD of 21.25 Secs
    3. Other Shatter skill has a CD of 10.25 sec (not even taking Clone generation in to account)
    4. Axe 2 has an Amunition system...
    5. To presume that any Condi Mirage would blow Everything in one burst is just made up argument in action
    6. Mirages have Weapons, not only Shatters (or only Axe at that)

    It seems like if you were trying to say that F2, Axe 2 and Jaunt are the only skills applying Conditions. That is just so far from Truth that I doubt you yourself actually know what you are talking about.

    I am not even going to start on Vigor, Endurance Regeneration and Clone (+ Mirrors) Generation.

    My apology, but I see no Arguments in your Comments, I see only Demagogy which I firmly hope is an outcome of lack of knowledge or misguidement on Topic at Hand. No Offense ment.

    Shatter isn't going to apply alot of confuse unless i dump alot of clones, and your gonna save those clones for either distort or cry, If your shattering outside of that its for interrupt or blind. But w/e continue to be outplayed by mesmers.

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    Sigh,
    Please learn the play the game.
    Stop trying to face tank sand shroud like a moron.
    Wait for the confuse and cleanse it once we spike confuse on you once we cannot do that again for 40seconds.
    Range the Necro down if your too impatient.
    Don't have a range weapon wait sand shroud to go down if the necro runs out of life force necro cannot shroud.
    Please learn to play.

    Please.

    Thanks.
    Signed,
    Lythim

    Your friendly neighborhood mesmer/engineer/gaurdian/elementalist/revenant

    I like your oversimplification of things

    Signed,
    absolute nobody

    Your friendly neighborhood warrior/thief/necro/mesmer/engineer/revenant/elementalist/guardian/ranger

    Its really is that simple.
    Axe 2, F2 and ambush is the confuse. (Cry of frustration is on a 40+ second cd with a 3clone prerequisite)
    All of which have high tells.
    Mirages aren't necro's we can't cover our conditions with a kitten ton of useless kitten like necros can, so when you cleanse your gonna get the confuse and the torment and the bleed.

    I understand this might be a little crazy, that the class that you convinced your self is OP actually isn't OP and damage can mostly be negated in one skill for 40seconds, but its true, you should log onto your mesmer and look at the cd for Cry of frustration. You should take a look at Elusive Mind too because were aren't gonna spam ambush for those stacks cause we need a clear. Jaunt is only 3 stacks and we need to use that to for escaping at best outside of Axe 2 and f2 burst rotations your gonna get hit with a maximum of 8-10 stacks of confuse and that pushing it because we would have to lane jaunt axe 2 and ambush respectively with zero counterplay from you.

    Truely, you should actually just look at mesmer cooldowns.
    Or not, and continue to be dominated by them.

    It really is a Learn to play issue, just remember we cannot cover our conditions with kitten like weakness/chill/poison etc your generally gonna see bleed,torment,confuse,blind, auto the blind of or don't depends if you of confuse on you already or don't and cleanse, most cleanses are 2 or more conditions remember you can cleasne 20 stacks of confuse with one cleanse.

    Thanks for reading!

    We are talking Meta Build of Mirage, not the custom Build that you are obviously running for your own. As, judging by the posts on entire Forums, we can Safely assume people are not Talking about Your self-made build.
    I am going to presume you did not know that because I don't believe anybody would intentionaly state False Facts that can be so easily checked.

    1. EVERY shatter skill inflicts Confusion (and Blindness and Torment)
    2. Cry of Frustration has a CD of 21.25 Secs
    3. Other Shatter skill has a CD of 10.25 sec (not even taking Clone generation in to account)
    4. Axe 2 has an Amunition system...
    5. To presume that any Condi Mirage would blow Everything in one burst is just made up argument in action
    6. Mirages have Weapons, not only Shatters (or only Axe at that)

    It seems like if you were trying to say that F2, Axe 2 and Jaunt are the only skills applying Conditions. That is just so far from Truth that I doubt you yourself actually know what you are talking about.

    I am not even going to start on Vigor, Endurance Regeneration and Clone (+ Mirrors) Generation.

    My apology, but I see no Arguments in your Comments, I see only Demagogy which I firmly hope is an outcome of lack of knowledge or misguidement on Topic at Hand. No Offense ment.

    Shatter isn't going to apply alot of confuse unless i dump alot of clones, and your gonna save those clones for either distort or cry, If your shattering outside of that its for interrupt or blind. But w/e continue to be outplayed by mesmers.

    Well dang I guess everyone that’s complaining about condis must just suck kitten

  • I like another thread calling Mirage "absolute evil". Do you really think that nerfing Mirage will fix current sPvP state?
    Mirage, Scourge, Holosmith, Spellbreaker are all just button spam classes. The problem in sPvP now is not confusion, torment, too high damage of some class, etc... The problem is the brainless button spam on all major classes. No more tactical fights, no more baiting of enemy defensive cooldowns, no more dodges in response on enemy action. Mirage is just the most broken part of this broken design.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MarkoNS.3261 said:
    you know what they should do a hard split on every skill in pve and pvp and balance it like that, like they did in gw1 the far superior game to this.

    but they keep saying that they want every skill / trait to basically behave same in every mode, so that you can fight players the way you would fight balthasars army or a tower gate in WvW. because they are basically all the same: Hitpoints you want to get rid off - riiight?

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @MarkoNS.3261 said:
    you know what they should do a hard split on every skill in pve and pvp and balance it like that, like they did in gw1 the far superior game to this.

    I don't know if you played the same game as I did for 8000 hours, but GW1 never successfully achieved balance in either PvP or in PvE. Hard splits made some builds confusing for people who did both because the same skill could have fundamentally different functionality in both modes, and large numbers of skills were completely useless in one mode or the other (largely due to the huge number of different skills available). The classes themselves were also quite poorly balanced as the secondary classes of Mesmer or Monk were almost always objectively better than any other option for a many of the builds where mesmer MAIN was actually fairly bad for a lot of builds due to fast casting being only situationally useful and rapidly draining out your energy, forcing you to drop good secondary class skills in favor of inspiration base skills to gain any advantage at all with it as a main class.

    Hard splits were NOT a good solution by any means. More frequent balance updates will help if that is something they are really pushing for, but they can and SHOULD be strictly numerical splits, that change how the skill/trait behaves without changing base function.

  • MarkoNS.3261MarkoNS.3261 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @MarkoNS.3261 said:
    you know what they should do a hard split on every skill in pve and pvp and balance it like that, like they did in gw1 the far superior game to this.

    I don't know if you played the same game as I did for 8000 hours, but GW1 never successfully achieved balance in either PvP or in PvE. Hard splits made some builds confusing for people who did both because the same skill could have fundamentally different functionality in both modes, and large numbers of skills were completely useless in one mode or the other (largely due to the huge number of different skills available). The classes themselves were also quite poorly balanced as the secondary classes of Mesmer or Monk were almost always objectively better than any other option for a many of the builds where mesmer MAIN was actually fairly bad for a lot of builds due to fast casting being only situationally useful and rapidly draining out your energy, forcing you to drop good secondary class skills in favor of inspiration base skills to gain any advantage at all with it as a main class.

    Hard splits were NOT a good solution by any means. More frequent balance updates will help if that is something they are really pushing for, but they can and SHOULD be strictly numerical splits, that change how the skill/trait behaves without changing base function.

    The balance can never be perfect and it doesnt need to be, still i think seperate balance for pve and pvp is better then mushing them together.

    Kittenizer Tm in Full ACTION.

  • Its been 3 months since PoF release. There are12 months in a year.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FLEUR.7458 said:
    Its been 3 months since PoF release. There are12 months in a year.

    Was just going to post how it's hard to take someone serious who exaggerates on this level.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Kaizoku.1298Kaizoku.1298 Member ✭✭✭

    Elite specs are too huge, they didn't turn out to be what ANet expected and wanted but they just kept going with it until they reach a point where they cannot get back from

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    Genesis is in gold and can't reach platinum with condition Mirage. Just some context.

    If you'd look at his comments you'd know that this post was not necessary.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • @Alatar.7364 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    Genesis is in gold and can't reach platinum with condition Mirage. Just some context.

    If you'd look at his comments you'd know that this post was not necessary.

    Is there a "I don't eat junk food" equivalent to forum posts?

  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    What really confuses me is why the hell would they buff an already OP class and nerf classes that are under performing. I didn't think it was possible to screw things up worse after their first "balance" patch, but, they some how found a way. What's next, 10 seconds of invulnerability for Scourge?

  • ITT: Drama Queens. To state that the developers completely misunderstand their own game is either ignorant, spiteful or both. Developing video games is a very complex, time consuming and personal life eroding undertaking. Granted, Arena Net seem to not suffer from EASpouseitis, but the folk there probably most definitely put in a great deal of extra work to bring us the game. Sure there are issues, but keep in mind that whilst you see the entirety of GW2 as taking place in your own little niche experience, the developers have to consider the entirety of the game as much as possible. Also don't be a dink.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    Please tell us. What are your goals actually?

    Goals, lol.

    "Finish work and go home. ", I'll wager!

    They are just normal humans.

    Necro. Never knowingly blasting combo fields since 2012.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Rufo.3716 said:
    What really confuses me is why the hell would they buff an already OP class and nerf classes that are under performing. I didn't think it was possible to screw things up worse after their first "balance" patch, but, they some how found a way. What's next, 10 seconds of invulnerability for Scourge?

    Don't you dare. Don't you freaking dare mention stuff like that. Last time people were making fun of buffs or nerfs like these, Anet actually implemented them...

    expect more condi resistance has "counter" to the condition spam, meanwhile they will balance with more boon corruption and stronger boon denial.
    Range damage will be increased as well to avoid players fight in melee gameplay, unless theres 2 melee classes figthing each other, or a gap closer burst gimmick to beat the range build.
    And yes scourge will be stronger defensively xD.

    Expect stronguer gimmicks.

  • AEFA.9035AEFA.9035 Member ✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    Sigh,
    Please learn the play the game.
    Stop trying to face tank sand shroud like a moron.
    Wait for the confuse and cleanse it once we spike confuse on you once we cannot do that again for 40seconds.
    Range the Necro down if your too impatient.
    Don't have a range weapon wait sand shroud to go down if the necro runs out of life force necro cannot shroud.
    Please learn to play.

    Please.

    Thanks.
    Signed,
    Lythim

    Your friendly neighborhood mesmer/engineer/gaurdian/elementalist/revenant

    I like your oversimplification of things

    Signed,
    absolute nobody

    Your friendly neighborhood warrior/thief/necro/mesmer/engineer/revenant/elementalist/guardian/ranger

    Its really is that simple.
    Axe 2, F2 and ambush is the confuse. (Cry of frustration is on a 40+ second cd with a 3clone prerequisite)
    All of which have high tells.
    Mirages aren't necro's we can't cover our conditions with a kitten ton of useless kitten like necros can, so when you cleanse your gonna get the confuse and the torment and the bleed.

    I understand this might be a little crazy, that the class that you convinced your self is OP actually isn't OP and damage can mostly be negated in one skill for 40seconds, but its true, you should log onto your mesmer and look at the cd for Cry of frustration. You should take a look at Elusive Mind too because were aren't gonna spam ambush for those stacks cause we need a clear. Jaunt is only 3 stacks and we need to use that to for escaping at best outside of Axe 2 and f2 burst rotations your gonna get hit with a maximum of 8-10 stacks of confuse and that pushing it because we would have to lane jaunt axe 2 and ambush respectively with zero counterplay from you.

    Truely, you should actually just look at mesmer cooldowns.
    Or not, and continue to be dominated by them.

    It really is a Learn to play issue, just remember we cannot cover our conditions with kitten like weakness/chill/poison etc your generally gonna see bleed,torment,confuse,blind, auto the blind of or don't depends if you of confuse on you already or don't and cleanse, most cleanses are 2 or more conditions remember you can cleasne 20 stacks of confuse with one cleanse.

    Thanks for reading!

    Honestly for me mirage and firebrand are fine. My only concern that I think is pretty broken would be cancermancer. Aoe condi with barrier cmon

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly. Scourge isnt anywhere near being strong. I played against a thief yesterday. I didnt get to use f1 even once. He just interrupted me all the time.

    Dont cry bout necro being to strong. It isnt. But i would like to see, good necro players to get rewarded, for their playstyle, and not this: press f1 then faceroll.

    Thats actually pretty annoying. But it works against most enemys, because they are just too bad to play around the necro weaknesses. Thats exactly the players who hide behind the "scourge is op" statement.

    Maybe getting an icd on f2 corrupts (9seconds) would be nice. So people couldnt just spam their kitten and they had to be smart, but then, you need to give it some more dmg/def elsewhere

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:
    ITT: Drama Queens. To state that the developers completely misunderstand their own game is either ignorant, spiteful or both. Developing video games is a very complex, time consuming and personal life eroding undertaking. Granted, Arena Net seem to not suffer from EASpouseitis, but the folk there probably most definitely put in a great deal of extra work to bring us the game. Sure there are issues, but keep in mind that whilst you see the entirety of GW2 as taking place in your own little niche experience, the developers have to consider the entirety of the game as much as possible. Also don't be a dink.

    The profession balance team is only charged with dealing with a very small subset of the labor and complexity of actually creating content.

    It's not that there's a lack of talent at creating the content itself but simply that the game design is horrible. It's why I never complain about content creation speed. It's difficult and complicated. Game design, though? That's really not that difficult, especially when tweaking numbers. Game engines are super easy to make these types of changes to, and these glaringly broken design ideas should have never made it to the live game.

    Having taken the time to design a spec in full, including number-crunching on skills, DPS rotations, etc., it doesn't take very long, and isn't very hard. A few spreadsheets and points of reference and you can do pretty well. With ANet's game engine, I could probably implement a balanced elite spec in a few weekends based on the proposals I've made and what I know from working in Gamebryo and Unity. Animations and sprites which I can only make primitive versions of are handled by professional animators and artists, anyways that aren't the profession devs. These guys are just either deliberately screwing their game over or are just completely detached from the realities of the state of it.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:
    ITT: Drama Queens. To state that the developers completely misunderstand their own game is either ignorant, spiteful or both. Developing video games is a very complex, time consuming and personal life eroding undertaking. Granted, Arena Net seem to not suffer from EASpouseitis, but the folk there probably most definitely put in a great deal of extra work to bring us the game. Sure there are issues, but keep in mind that whilst you see the entirety of GW2 as taking place in your own little niche experience, the developers have to consider the entirety of the game as much as possible. Also don't be a dink.

    The profession balance team is only charged with dealing with a very small subset of the labor and complexity of actually creating content.

    It's not that there's a lack of talent at creating the content itself but simply that the game design is horrible. It's why I never complain about content creation speed. It's difficult and complicated. Game design, though? That's really not that difficult, especially when tweaking numbers. Game engines are super easy to make these types of changes to, and these glaringly broken design ideas should have never made it to the live game.

    Having taken the time to design a spec in full, including number-crunching on skills, DPS rotations, etc., it doesn't take very long, and isn't very hard. A few spreadsheets and points of reference and you can do pretty well. With ANet's game engine, I could probably implement a balanced elite spec in a few weekends based on the proposals I've made and what I know from working in Gamebryo and Unity. Animations and sprites which I can only make primitive versions of are handled by professional animators and artists, anyways that aren't the profession devs. These guys are just either deliberately screwing their game over or are just completely detached from the realities of the state of it.

    Ah, well. If you're a Unity developer then you clearly know a fair bit about developing games, especially games like Guild Wars 2 with its multitude of game modes and systems and the many ways these systems can interact with one another. Clearly, the simpletons in charge of designing game mechanics from which all other interactions are derived simply fail to understand how to build a game. If only you, with your gamebryo design skills could be allowed to spend a meagre couple of weekends rebuilding the terrible state of the game, everything would probably be much better.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @MarkoNS.3261 said:
    you know what they should do a hard split on every skill in pve and pvp and balance it like that, like they did in gw1 the far superior game to this.

    Anet will never do it cause that would kill class on PVE side ;P

    Never stopped them in the past.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:
    ITT: Drama Queens. To state that the developers completely misunderstand their own game is either ignorant, spiteful or both. Developing video games is a very complex, time consuming and personal life eroding undertaking. Granted, Arena Net seem to not suffer from EASpouseitis, but the folk there probably most definitely put in a great deal of extra work to bring us the game. Sure there are issues, but keep in mind that whilst you see the entirety of GW2 as taking place in your own little niche experience, the developers have to consider the entirety of the game as much as possible. Also don't be a dink.

    The profession balance team is only charged with dealing with a very small subset of the labor and complexity of actually creating content.

    It's not that there's a lack of talent at creating the content itself but simply that the game design is horrible. It's why I never complain about content creation speed. It's difficult and complicated. Game design, though? That's really not that difficult, especially when tweaking numbers. Game engines are super easy to make these types of changes to, and these glaringly broken design ideas should have never made it to the live game.

    Having taken the time to design a spec in full, including number-crunching on skills, DPS rotations, etc., it doesn't take very long, and isn't very hard. A few spreadsheets and points of reference and you can do pretty well. With ANet's game engine, I could probably implement a balanced elite spec in a few weekends based on the proposals I've made and what I know from working in Gamebryo and Unity. Animations and sprites which I can only make primitive versions of are handled by professional animators and artists, anyways that aren't the profession devs. These guys are just either deliberately screwing their game over or are just completely detached from the realities of the state of it.

    Ah, well. If you're a Unity developer then you clearly know a fair bit about developing games, especially games like Guild Wars 2 with its multitude of game modes and systems and the many ways these systems can interact with one another. Clearly, the simpletons in charge of designing game mechanics from which all other interactions are derived simply fail to understand how to build a game. If only you, with your gamebryo design skills could be allowed to spend a meagre couple of weekends rebuilding the terrible state of the game, everything would probably be much better.

    ITT: People with zero experience making assumptions about the video game industry and mocking people who have worked in the MMO industry firsthand and actually have developer experience who are criticizing legitimate design failures of a AAA company.

    For real, changing professions is very likely a lot easier than you think lol. Unless their engine is designed in a horrible way, which given how technologically-competent this staff is, I'm doubting. A couple form changes, maybe some code tweaks to a few methods to apply effects or damage by adjusting some parameters, and then the animation work is really all that's needed in a lot of cases here. There are a few glaring changes that should be made, but even still, most of the effort would need to come from animations which should be done by an animations/art team rather than gameplay designers which do a ton of analytics and number-crunching.

    C'mon dude. Just give it up. The professions team is failing this game no matter how you spin it. And if they're stretched thin doing other work, ANet's management is screwing them, screwing the game, and if they haven't seen that by now, then this game and possibly their whole franchise is over in the not-too-distant future.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Keg toss is balanced

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:
    ITT: Drama Queens. To state that the developers completely misunderstand their own game is either ignorant, spiteful or both. Developing video games is a very complex, time consuming and personal life eroding undertaking. Granted, Arena Net seem to not suffer from EASpouseitis, but the folk there probably most definitely put in a great deal of extra work to bring us the game. Sure there are issues, but keep in mind that whilst you see the entirety of GW2 as taking place in your own little niche experience, the developers have to consider the entirety of the game as much as possible. Also don't be a dink.

    The profession balance team is only charged with dealing with a very small subset of the labor and complexity of actually creating content.

    It's not that there's a lack of talent at creating the content itself but simply that the game design is horrible. It's why I never complain about content creation speed. It's difficult and complicated. Game design, though? That's really not that difficult, especially when tweaking numbers. Game engines are super easy to make these types of changes to, and these glaringly broken design ideas should have never made it to the live game.

    Having taken the time to design a spec in full, including number-crunching on skills, DPS rotations, etc., it doesn't take very long, and isn't very hard. A few spreadsheets and points of reference and you can do pretty well. With ANet's game engine, I could probably implement a balanced elite spec in a few weekends based on the proposals I've made and what I know from working in Gamebryo and Unity. Animations and sprites which I can only make primitive versions of are handled by professional animators and artists, anyways that aren't the profession devs. These guys are just either deliberately screwing their game over or are just completely detached from the realities of the state of it.

    Ah, well. If you're a Unity developer then you clearly know a fair bit about developing games, especially games like Guild Wars 2 with its multitude of game modes and systems and the many ways these systems can interact with one another. Clearly, the simpletons in charge of designing game mechanics from which all other interactions are derived simply fail to understand how to build a game. If only you, with your gamebryo design skills could be allowed to spend a meagre couple of weekends rebuilding the terrible state of the game, everything would probably be much better.

    ITT: People with zero experience making assumptions about the video game industry and mocking people who have worked in the MMO industry firsthand and actually have developer experience who are criticizing legitimate design failures of a AAA company.

    For real, changing professions is very likely a lot easier than you think lol. Unless their engine is designed in a horrible way, which given how technologically-competent this staff is, I'm doubting. A couple form changes, maybe some code tweaks to a few methods to apply effects or damage by adjusting some parameters, and then the animation work is really all that's needed in a lot of cases here. There are a few glaring changes that should be made, but even still, most of the effort would need to come from animations which should be done by an animations/art team rather than gameplay designers which do a ton of analytics and number-crunching.

    C'mon dude. Just give it up. The professions team is failing this game no matter how you spin it. And if they're stretched thin doing other work, ANet's management is screwing them, screwing the game, and if they haven't seen that by now, then this game and possibly their whole franchise is over in the not-too-distant future.

    You made an MMO with Unity? I'm sure that's not the case but if you did, I'm not sure if I should shake your hand or shake my head. You do, however, seem to be utterly convinced of your skills, so my only suggestion to your AAA brilliance would be to go ahead and redesign the professions if you haven't done so already, and post them onto the forums. I look forward to reading your suggestions and shall assume that they are - naturally, correct on the first pass.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2018

    Okay let me spell it out for you:
    I worked in the MMO industry, not as a game developer, but I'm using my experience in the industry itself to tell you how things are done. I am familiar with various game engines. I have worked on my own projects in Unity and Bethesda's modified Gamebryo engine. I'll make the push to Unreal at some point since it's gone free, but I'm currently vested in a Unity project at the moment which I do hope to release professionally as a business endeavor. I am a software engineer, not a game developer. So I will be unable to release a AAA title on my own, because by very nature, the definition in the industry itself for AAA is loosely defined as being based on the amount of investment cash put into the game for maximum return. By myself, I wouldn't be able to do this because that'd require making an entire company just to reach the definition. As far as high-fidelity content goes, that's up to the user. I can't draw or animate professionally. So while I can tool around in an engine and make sound gameplay and make tweaks to existing assets to update gameplay fidelty based on game design principles, I cannot give you a high-fidelity-graphic 3D worldspace to view and play in. Nor can GW2's professions team. That isn't their job. That's not how the industry works, and I'm saying that as an insider. No one person has the talent pool of an entire company. Even PUBG outsourced its asset creation at the start. Most indie studios lack the budget and years of artistic expertise from extremely talented individuals.

    Almost every major game publisher out there uses proprietary game engines made by the studios making the game, especially those making MMOs. This is because most third party engines like Unreal and Unity do not interface nicely with having so many players, and development studios lack the control to extensively modify features within the engine. GW2's engine is already known to be proprietary and based heavily on the original GW's engine; this is ANet's reasoning behind why they never moved to DX10/11/12; the entire system architecture needs to then be remade from the ground up, which is a massive undertaking.

    Programming staff helps simplify and/or automate tasks for asset creation/implementation of the game developers and designers. The professions team should be at the very least much more focused on game design than on actual implementation; crude animations and generally low-fidelity sketches to convey the intent to actual artists. Optimizations and features get handed off to gameplay programmers after confirming implementation is possible. The role of the designer is largely data analysis and best practices paired with a bit of jack-of-all-trades set of abilities enough to convey their point and maybe make some initial scaffolding for testing purposes. It's largely a more creative and analytical job.

    You can click the link in my signature for my initial proposal for the deadeye which was suggested almost immediately following HoT. I did not reformat the document since the move to the new forums, so the formatting looks weird as it was to be in-line with the old forums' styling. While ANet likely won't confirm it, I can confirm that staff did read my suggestion because I was outright told so by members of ANet staff. It is possible the name and some of the ability ideas which were overlapped were implemented. Unfortunately, it appears either my design theory notes were ignored or overruled by community demands for a sniper. As I stated repeatedly, such a concept will either be unfun from the OHKO mechanic (as people are already doing) or be too difficult to implement in a balanced fashion (which is why the DE and in particular, rifle, is a gimmick spec).

    Almost every suggestion I made in the ranger CDI has at some point also made it to the live game, usually as well-regarded features, and most of my criticisms on the design-level of various professions starting from 2012 are still valid. I'll let you fish through my years of posting if you'd like.

    Which is why my criticism lays with the professions team; most of the flaws in the professions are conceptual rather than strictly numbers. This shows misunderstanding and that's either caused by negligence, or simply not being able to focus on what's necessary to change. Regardless, there is an obvious disconnect with reality. I did not execute perfectly on the DE on my first posting. What I did do, was ask the forums/reddit for feedback, got a lot of support at the time when it was written (and a few naysayers who didn't like the concept and couldn't deal with rifle being the way it was), and quickly refined the ideas based on some unintended and not-fully-realized interactions like the QP change. At that point, I was also responding to game updates to keep the idea balanced leading up to the second expansion while it was possibly being referenced. What it didn't do, was take months of 8 hour days to come to a conclusion on what's a good idea and how to make numerical adjustments to other patches. That's what we have now. If the powercreep is coming from management to sell boxes, then simply, management is failing GW2 and it will not last as a franchise, because every expansion has been a major loss to revenue. Oh, yeah, by the way, I also called ANet's future profitability in a previous post of mine down to the quarter when discussing HoT's content in-depth in a previous (old) post of mine when people were freaking out over the initial yearly report for ANet having such a big surge of sales. If execs are demanding sales by profession design blunders, they're killing their game. But the professions are being packed and shipped with bad/unhealthy design ideas, one way or the other.

    So why exactly, as an industry insider, and as someone who's taken the time to actually design ideas in full, am I unable to say that design decisions, which have no foundation or even relation to the complexity of implementing systems (which is where a lot of the time is spent), are poor ones? Why am I "Drama Queen" as a paying stakeholder and customer for being upset at what is obviously a failure of design or understanding of the problem when literally every means of measuring the health of the PvP systems points heavily to the professions not being healthy for a competitive environment?

    And further, since you're pointing at my capabilities as if I'm no good, please, what are your credentials and what are your statements based on? So far, we have a "it's hard."

    If you're an ANet employee or something and can verify their engine does not have essential features for easily manipulating profession abilities' functions within their test environments, please, prove it. Otherwise, I can just say confidently that based on how the rest of the industry works, you're talking out of your kitten and are blindly making statements and accusations about what to expect from both the company and its stakeholders.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

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