How would you redesign the thief? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How would you redesign the thief?

Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 7, 2018 in Thief

Do you feel like the thief could be much more? That his mechanics don't do his theme justice? Maybe his elite specializations have a weak design? Or do you just want to post some crazy ideas? Well, then this thread is for you.

So, just for fun, how would you redesign the thief?

Last update here: July 6, 2018

Few personal ideas to start the thread:


Thief - Replace Steal with a Skill Belt

Personally, I don’t like steal too much. It’s just a quick teleport that gives you some random skill (most of the time pretty forgettable). It’s just boring, design-wise, for the profession mechanic. It could be much more.

A thief should have many dirty tricks up his sleeve, and the mechanic bar is kinda wasted with no additional skills. So, what about a skill belt, with some good old throwing weapons?

You would have three mechanic skill slots: F1, F2, and F3. You would be able to customize each slot with an unique mechanic skill, freely chosen from a list. They wouldn't be very useful separately, and you would need to combine them. What would make them special is that they would all be chain skills, and all three skills would advance chain steps progress simultaneously (so, when you use one, the three would step to the second stage). These skills would also provide various simple combo field and finisher options.

The goal of these belt skills is to give you an unique combo system, reminiscent of martial arts. Something that feels sneaky and tricky, and that while simple, can lead to many interesting combinations, which can be really useful if used right.

Some examples:

  • Knife: Throw one / Throw two / Throw three, bleed if all hit - Short range, projectile finisher
  • Dart: Throw one / Throw three / Throw five, cripple if all hit - Short range, projectile finisher
  • Firecracker: Point-blank, area blind, smoke field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, burning
  • Stink Bomb: Point-blank, area weakness, poison field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, poison
  • Shadowstep: Select target, shadowstep behind / select target, smoke field, shadowstep away / Select target, shadowstep behind, leap finisher
  • Whirl: Reflect projectiles / poison field, reflect projectiles / Reflect projectiles, whirl finisher - Short duration

These belt skills would spend initiative, just like weapon skills. They would benefit from active venoms as well, which would let you apply them in new ways.

The concept behind these belt skills could be too similar to some of the daredevil physical slot skills, which could need replacements. A good opportunity to focus more on melee martial arts for the daredevil, a theme that doesn’t reach its full potential now.

Think of the engineer tool belt, but customizable, with simple but versatile skills.


Thief - Dual Wield redesign

The current Dual Wield model gives an unique 3rd skill depending on the main-hand and the off-hand weapon. However, this can be problematic in the long term, for you need to create new skills for every combination, and each new weapon you add will grow that number, exponentially. Also, it’s kinda boring to wield two pistols and only fire one at a time, except the 3rd skill.

So, this dual wield rework would be something like this:

  • Special 3rd dual wield skill removed. Now the 3rd skill is always dependent on the main-hand weapon, like with every other profession.
  • If you equip the same type of main-hand and off-hand weapon, you get 5 new skills.

It’s more work in the short term, but less in the long term, and lets you wield two pistols and use both at the same time, with a new autoattack where you fire both of them, and a 5th skill where you spin while firing or something. Cool stuff, and an actual real dual wield.

Some skills could be similar to when you wield different types, there’s no need for the 5 of them to be 100% unique. As for the removed 3rd skills that are not recycled, most of their variations are pretty similar, so nothing of value would be lost.

This model is interesting, and could be theoretically applied to other professions as well, though the nature of the thief makes him the priority.


Daredevil - Partial redesign

I feel like the first elite specialization fell flat in so many ways. I'm an advocate for mechanic bar changes with every elite specialization, and the daredevil got none of that, just an alternate dodge. It's not enough.

There's a "martial arts" theme here, but it's not fleshed properly. That can be a good starting point.

First of all, I would apply the Replace Steal with a Skill Belt idea from above, and improve it, by adding two additional slots, F4 and F5, where you can equip more belt skills. Additionally, the daredevil would get new belt skills options.

For example:

  • Rock: Stun / Knockdown / Knockback - Single projectile, short range, short duration, projectile finisher
  • Flare: Point-blank, area blindness, dark field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, confusion
  • Roll: Evade forward / dark field, evade backwards / Evade forward, blast finisher - Stun break

Two of the physical slot skills feel way too similar to the belt skills, dealing with knives and such, so I would remove them, and replace them with other close combat melee martial movements, both of them with chains. Then I would upgrade the rest to have three step chains, even the healing skill, to reinforce the theme of the elite specialization.

As for the alternate dodge, I'm happy with it, and wouldn't change it too much. Maybe make it more customizable, or easier to select, but keep the original skills.

These changes would also establish daredevil as the core elite specialization, keeping the original thief gameplay almost intact, and letting all other elite specializations go wild with new mechanics and gameplay ideas.


Deadeye - Full redesign

I feel like the deadeye doesn't have a strong theme, and lacks personality. It's just some random guy with a rifle.

A cool theme for the elite specialization could be "high risk, high reward". This would be reflected by new rifle skills, that let you channel for greater damage, at the risk of being interrupted and losing initiative, and gambling elements in the slot skills, that let you "throw a dice" to get an effect, and throw again if you don't like it, for a chance of better or worse result.

So, the new deadeye would be a desert brigand, who loves games of chance, hangs out in the Amnoon casino, and kneels to pray to some pagan goddess of fortune.

The first step is to remove Malice and Deadeye's Mark altogether. They're cool mechanics, but I don't think they fit this particular elite specialization too much. Now we have a clear slate.

The second step is to take Kneel further, and turn it into a mechanic skill, affecting all weapon skills, kinda like an elementalist attunement. The melee skills would get ranged or shadowstep alternatives, and every weapon would get a "hold for more damage" channeling skill in the 5th skill. The rest of the skills wouldn't undergo great upgrades, just minor changes to reflect the alternate mode. As with the original kneel skill, the kneel mode would disable basic movement.

Steal would be gone, too, replaced by a new mechanic, Dices. F1, F2, and F3 would each represent a different dice, and they would be free to throw, but have a cooldown of 10 seconds afterwards. Throwing dices would apply a new effect, Blessed by Luck, stacking depending on the dice results. Specific combinations of dices could apply bonus effects as well.

The cantrips would be removed and replaced by glyphs, with different effects depending on the current mode (normal or kneel). Their effects would be randomized, and themed around different games of chance, specially cards. They would have a bonus chance for the better results the more Blessed by Luck you have at the moment of the activation.

Each stack of Blessed by Luck would boost precision, and improve the effects of glyphs, as well as weapon skills, but only in kneel mode. Some of these skills would forcefully reset the dices, while others would consume some of the blessed by luck stacks. The key of the elite specialization is learning how to manage your resources, calculating risk and reward of your actions. Blessed by Luck would last for 1 minute, and you would need to refresh it now and then, by throwing one dice again.

You can use the channeled skills to do more damage, but when should you stop and fire? If you take too long, your enemy could interrupt you, or find cover. You may not like the current amount of Blessed by Luck, but maybe you get a worse result if you're greedy? Maybe you have a good dice combination, but the effect is running out, so you have to choose between spending the stacks on the elite skill, or throwing one dice again to refresh the timer.

I think this could prove a very interesting gameplay, pretty fun with the highs and downs, and really powerful for those who can micromanage the high risk high reward situation.


Just some random ideas to begin the thread. Waiting for yours! =)

Profession Redesign series:
Elementalist - Mesmer - Necromancer - Engineer - Ranger - Thief - Guardian - Revenant - Warrior

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Comments

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017

    The only thing i want to re-design is understanding of thief from devs and every scrub that cries "omg teef op" but never tried one himself.

    That being said i want thief to have supporty spec (gimmi bard) so double thief doesn't cause mass tantrum every match.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • ToPNoP.2493ToPNoP.2493 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017

    On DareDevil
    I wouldn't redesign the thief, I would put caltrops back to 2 bleeds so condi can once again be competitive with holosmith, mirage, and spellbreaker. I'm not talking about being able to beat button smashers, come on, that is a given. I am talking about equal results for equal skills. right now thief loses iits ability to regenerate energy to so many classes, and now the bleed nerf. I guess the design is as follows, make no one want to solo roam on thief classes so they solo roam on build carry gimmicks. Holo with that huge blast me down stun and reveal, Mesmer with invuln, invis, and high dps cap, soulbeast with 3000 range and backstab level dps, and warrior resistance make thief down right hard to play. I do win against a lot of people, but not against pof players that are equal or slightly less as good at the game. Most people who use deadeye use it as a novelty, but they wont main it. If Anet made deadeye op enough for people to bandwagon it, then duelists would begin to dominate every class in the game with ease. So they cant. Thief players cling to their class because they love it. I am not saying buff the kitten out of it, I am just saying stop nerfing any part of it. I bought pof, but the game play that is required (hide and seek, pirate ship) has left me wanting more. Thief is a roamer, not a blobber. If blobbing classes are crying because they cant 1 hit a solo class, then so be it. If you want to determine what classes are most op, then look to the servers with the highest KDR and see exactly what they are running in mass. Maguuma, who openly tanks on purpose, would be a great place to start looking.

    Yes I like comms, but sadly I'm allergic to them.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    • If you equip the same type of main-hand and off-hand weapon, you get 5 new skills.

    Yes, please! I always felt like there were some severe synergy issues when it comes to stuff like P/P which makes it feel like an unfinished afterthought as a result of it.

    I'd also like to see a rework for acrobatics since it's basically just an inferior version of daredevil at this point.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭
    • I would completely remove Daredevil and Deadeye first
    • Then I'd fix the Core Traitlines of the Thief and make sure to strengthen them all in such a way, that Thief can again shine in some own areas and becomes finaly useful in all Game Modes again, while also receiving back its identity with features, that should belong to a Thief Class and what people expect from Thieves what they should do - Boon Stealing and Sharing as like Trap Control, Diasarming of Enemies, weakening Foes Attributes this way, so that they can't deal such heavy bursts anymore and give them some proper Group Support.
    • Then I'd improve their Stealth and Shadow Step Mechanics to make sure, that Thief becomes the clear most mobile Class of all, which can't be anymore outrun by Warriors in HEAVY ARMORS, without having to lose all initiative for that ....and beign then like a dry fish on the silver platter for them to kill easily
    • I'd make sure, that Thief gets ways to ignore (or at least weaken) the absurd health Degenerations of Warriors, so that they actually can deal damage to them and not get permanently all of their attacks outhealed instantly, what is ridiculous
    • Then I'd change the Weapon List of the Core Thief, add as baseline Weapons there Staff, Offhand Sword and Rifle (due to Rifle gettign merged with Harpoon Guns to remove this obsolete Weapon Type, so that Deadeye becomes completely obsolete too)
    • After that Id rework the Rifle Skilsl to simplyfy them so that they work without all this Kneel and Malice Garbage under the Core Thief with a Kneel mechanism, w that works automatically and doesn't require anymore manual button clicking
    • I'd make 3 Dodges and the Dodge Styles of the Daredevil baseline for the Core Thief with the difference, that the Dodge Styles are now F-Skills from F3 to F5 and manually changeable anytime in Combat with little recharge times instead of them being linked to Grandmaster Traits
    • Id merge alot of the Utility Skills after that and fill up the made gaps with new useful Skills that help better defining the role of as Thief and what a Thief in Combat should do, while providing in its own unique way some form of Group Support.
    • I'd completely rework all of the Elite Skills and replace them with better more useful ones.
    • After that I'd overlook every single Skill of the Thief, which can't be used under water right now, how to change it, to make it useable under water as well - if that is impossible, then the whiole skill gets deleted and replaced with a new skill, which is from ground up designed for it to work on land as like underwater, so that the Thief doesn't lose anymore over the half of all its skilsl the moment you touch water. This has been so absurd since release of the game and anet never fixed this...
    • After having previously removed Daredevil and Deadeye, due to mostly absorbing them into Core Thief to give Thief back its original identity that Anet nerfed to death to give these E Specs a reason for existance, I'll give the Thief two really useful and thematic fitting E Specs - the Rogue, with giving them Longbows, so that they can choose between two long range weapons with the Rogue being the spec that focuses heavily on Boon Stealing, Trap Control, Disarming Foes and Mobility - and the Saboteur with the Torch, that gives Thief access to Burning, more Group Support through Manipulations, improved Self Defense through gettign more access to Protection and Stability and addign hard counters to Banners, Minions/Turrets/Gyros and the like by becoming able to take them over from your enemies to use them against them and which is a kind of Shadowmancer with specialized Shadow Steps as the Torch with its own source of light allows it them to create on demand shadows that they can use for their Shadow Spells to manipulate foes like a Shadowmancer/Puppet Master

    Thats how i practically would redesign the whole Thief Package including its E Specs which are so out of touch with the game, that they need to be completely removed and merged into the Core Thief as good a possible, just to restore the original identity of the Thief to the point, that the Thief Class feels again likebeing truly a Thief in a competitive way so that you don't get anymore stomped into the ground the very moment you fight against one of the other totally overpowered powercreep specs like Mirage, Scourge or Spellbreaker.
    Thief is currently in absolutely no good spot, it feels so extremely left behind and not on an equal level with the other specs, that it is so obvious, that you just need to play the class for a while and do some fights against the other classes with Thief to clearly see how huge the gap between Thief and the rest is right now - and that is something, that only people who main thieves can truly realize, cause these people have several years of experience with playing this class and know about what they are talking.

    When I see my high defensive thief still gettign one shotted by any total unexperienced Mirage/scourge players, cause all they have to do is faceroll over their keyeboard and the overpowered mechanics of these specs do everythign for them..then you absolutely know, how bad the state of game balance in this game is ...


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @meepeY.2867 said:
    I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

    I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.
    The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

    For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

    If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

    TL:DR
    Stealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

    Ouch. I kind of agree with your reasoning but I'm really enjoying rifle and s/d stealth right now, even without Silent Scope. I'm sure I'm considerably less effective than other builds and surely slower but I have fun setting up a revealed burst timing cursed bullet with whatever. I like making a quick guess of when everything will land together based on how far I am and how I position to curve cursed bullet like I'm a ping pong champ. I might be the Forest Gump of thieves but it's a different approach and it does need work, but I wouldn't want it totally scrapped.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt? Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

    Knives (all have 3 charges)
    Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)
    Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)
    Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)
    Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

    Bombs (all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)
    Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)
    Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)
    Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)
    Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

    Venoms (all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)
    Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)
    Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

    Shadowsteps (all have ground targeting and 1200 range)
    Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)
    Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)
    Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)
    Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

    Dual wield and weaponset revamp? Yes please. Redundancy sucks and some weaponsets have plenty of redundancy. I even have a few ideas for some of the weaponsets so depending on my mood I may throw the idea out into the forums at a later date. ;P

    Daredevil partial redesign? Along with the toolbelt, yeah the knife throwing utilities would need to go and added as an option for the toolbelt. The dodges could also be turned into somewhat of a toolbelt slot with a selectable dodge. But other than that, the Daredevil was meant to be an evade-heavy elite spec that added onto what the core thief could do. For the extra slot skills:

    Knives
    Impairing Knives - Throw knives that inflict multiple conditions on a single target. (3 poison, slow, immobilize, 30s CD)

    Bombs
    Flashbang - Blind enemies and stealth (3s) yourself. Automatically goes off. (35s)

    Venoms
    Skale Venom - Passive: Vuln (5s) and torment (2s) every 2nd hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks wear down your enemy. (Vuln 10s and Torment 6s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

    Shadowsteps
    River Dragon Palm - Teleport to target area, dealing a blindingly fast and powerful strike in the process. Enemies hit are knocked back. Enemies who are in front of you are launched. (Knockback 200, 75s CD)

    Deadeye redesign? Sure, but what you suggested is a bad idea. Thief is already "high risk, high reward" because this profession has no passive defense. Your fights must be decent against bad players or excellent against good players or you will get killed. Secondly, designing a spec around RNG is a horrible way to bring "personality" to it. RNG is practically useless in combat in GW2 except as a means to tack on a little extra damage. Unless the effects the gambles brought were overly powerful, the mechanic itself would be worthless.

    Consider the RNG mechanics of Improvisation. Out of the pool of utilities, you have a chance of one utility type completely recharging upon using steal, every 20-30 seconds. The effects that the gamble produces would have to be that impactful or else nobody would use it because using it would only serve to min/max what you already have rather than give a clear advantage.

    As for the rest of the mechanics, Mark is fine. In fact, mark is much better than regular steal as the skills work directly with the malice mechanic, go past the duration cap, can be used whenever and refreshes almost constantly. Instead of changing the kneel mechanic which is solely a weapon mechanic of the rifle, add exclusive malice bonuses to the other weapon skills. It would be much easier to do that than add ~30 newish skills for the kneeling mechanic which would not make much sense with melee weapons. Hell, I might even throw out ideas for malice bonuses for the other weapon skills at a later date too.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it. Out of Date
    These DE tips are still relevant. Out of Date

  • Asur.9178Asur.9178 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2017

    I'd start by getting rid of the initiative system so they can stop being so reserved with balancing the class properly.

    I'd also get rid of every single stealth ability in the game.

    Neither of those are going to happen; so, it's irrelevant to me what they do.

  • getalifeturd.8139getalifeturd.8139 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    I present the Assassin from Cantha as the next elite specialisation. Inspired From Guild Wars 1 this will bring back weapon combos with a new mechanic for thieves called combos. Lead attacks, off-hand attacks and dual attacks will come with the new weapon set dual swords. Focused around knocking down the target with the lead attack leading into more powerful attacks with the off-hand like dealing extra damage when the enemy is knocked down and finally finishing off with a dual attack to deal more damage if all other combos have landed. Changes steal into a lead attack teleport which can be followed up with off-hand attacks and finally dual attacks. Utilities focus on weapon combos and conditions. These dual swords replace existing weapons as a stand-alone weapon set.

    Dual swords:

    1: (A) Autoattack begins with a lead attack called Leaping Mantis Sting (Range: 130). Hit target foe to cripple them.

    (B) 2nd part of autoattack is an off-hand attack called Trampling Ox (Range: 130). If target foe is crippled knock them down (1 second).

    (C) 3rd part of autoattack is a dual attack called Impale (Range: 130). If target foe is in down state stomp them (similiar to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Finishing_Blow).

    2: Teleport to target foe (Range: 900). Temple Strike: Inflicts Daze for 3 seconds (Costs 4 initiative). This counts as an off-hand attack.

    3: Dual attack Combo skill. Starburst Stream: 16 hits: Horizontal slash, Uppercut slash and full circle spin, horizontal slash continuing spin, horizontal slash with both swords, downward X-slash, upward X-slash, 2 opposite direction diagonal slashes, lift swords up and turn away reversing grip, reverse grip downward X-slash, Corkscrew attack and shift swords into forward grip, downward X-slash, upward X-slash, Diagonal slash and spin, horizontal slash, uppercut slash with both swords, downwards vertical slash, downward diagonal slash and spin, downward diagonal slash, forward thrust and forward lunge. (Costs 10 initiative; Open to balance by Arenanet.)

    4: Shroud of Distress: You have 75% chance to block but no effect unless your health is below 50%. (Lasts 3 seconds and costs 5 initiative).

    5: Flashing Blades: For 5 seconds while attacking you have a 75% chance to block. (Costs 8 initiative).

    Heal: Dark Escape: Take 50% less damage as long as you're not attacking for 5 seconds and heal over time.

    Utility skills:

    Iron Palm: (Range:130) Causes knockdown (3 seconds) if target has a condition. This skill counts as a lead attack and off-hand attack. (20 second cooldown).

    Shroud of Silence: For 5 seconds your critical hits remove boons. (50 second cooldown).

    Moebius Strike: (Range: 130) Gives you 6 initiative back If you have just used a dual attack skill. This skill counts as a lead and off-hand attack. (30 second cooldown).

    Way of the Master: For 10 seconds you cause a new type of condition called Deep Wound (This lowers the person's health by 20%) for 3 seconds with your attacks. (40 second cooldown).

    Elite skill:

    Shadow Form: For 5 seconds Hostile spells targeting you fail and attacks against you miss. (60 second cooldown).

    Traits:

    Adept:

    Minor: Steal becomes Wastrel's collapse: Teleport skill (1200 range) If target is not using any skill then target is knocked down. This skill counts as a lead attack. (Same cooldown as Steal affected by Trickery traits). Access to Dual swords and combo skills. Lead attacks must be followed by off-hand and then dual attacks.

    Critical Hits: For each autoattack chain you finish you gain 1 initiative.

    Sword Mastery: There is a chance that your autoattacks will gain quickness.

    Assassin's Promise: Your utility skills cooldown is reduced by 20%. (This does not affect Shadow Form).

    Master:

    Minor: Starburst Stream now has a 20% increased chance to critically hit.

    Critical Defenses: You gain Dark Escape on being affected by any crowd control (60 second cooldown).

    Aura of Displacement: Wastrel's collapse has a shorter cooldown by 20% which stacks with trickery traits.

    Assassin's Remedy: Your next 10 attacks you use remove 1 condition (30 second cooldown).

    Grandmaster:

    Minor: Gain Flashing blades for 5 seconds when your health drops belows 50% health (40 second cooldown).

    Way of the assassin: Shadow form can be shared to allies for 5 seconds. (60 second cooldown).

    Critical Agility: Shroud of Distress now triggers when your health drops below 50% health (30 second cooldown).

    Way of Perfection: You are healed for every critical hit and remove a condition.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    lol ...

    isnt it enough to have posted this already in an own thread ???...


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2017

    It'd need to come with more than just changes to the thief, but I'd remove spammable stealth access game-wide. The best stealth accessor in the game in terms of raw uptime should be CnD given its initiative cost and relative risk/counterplay.

    I'd rework all stealth skills to be based on both MH and OH weapons similar to dual skills. Something like nerfing baseline backstab by 33% but giving D/D a dual backstabs at 200% [changed] damage, OH pistol blinds or shadowsteps away on top of damage, etc.

    Backstab ICD would get removed and replaced such that upon a failed attempt, it reverts back to the default AA upon missing for 2s.

    Base dagger AA damage nerfed by 20%, various weapon skill coefficients, initiative costs, and damage traits substantially improved to compensate.

    I'd then remove the passives from Acro, buff up a number of kitten utilities like Ice Drake Venom, Caltrops, TG, DDaggers, Shadow Trap, and Scorpion Wire , rework signets (again) to be more consistent, remove endurance refilling from any utilities except CV, and bump FG to double Vigor's efficacy, Merge Hidden Killer into Twin Fangs, put a put an ICD on Impacting Disruption, remove might stacking and initiative refunding on Unload but give it a useful stealth attack for scaling into Unload, cut MH pistol damage down by 9%, and change Ankle Shots to Ricochet and give a 10% bonus to pistol damage.

    Then I'd rework OH dagger to make it actually useful and D/D a good enough kit to stand on its own - rework DB to a lunge forward as faster evade, remove the bouncing from Dancing Dagger and just have it hit all nearby targets at double damage, rework the condition application component of D/D condi thief to use Dancing Dagger instead of DB, change Dagger Training to apply 2s poison on all attacks made with a dagger 100% rate on a 1s icd, and backstab deal 3 stacks of poison, and make Potent Poison make all such applications apply double stacks, and nerf Shadow Shot's damage by coefficient by 0.3.

    Daredevil I'd only make Bound/Lotus apply damage if not stealthed, and remove exhaustion from UC, but make its condition cleanse components on an ICD instead.

    I'd then delete Deadeye and replace it with my original proposal.

    Just to start things off. There are a lot of necessary tweaks that'd need to be made to SA and probably some further tuning to other professions to compensate, but this is a baseline.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2017

    Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

    @meepeY.2867 said:
    I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

    I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.
    The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

    For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

    If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

    TL:DR
    Stealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

    Yeah, stealth has problems too. Maybe it should be turned into a boon, so it can be applied and removed easily? We could make revealed a condition as well, that nullifies the stealth boon. Right now stealth and revealed are way too "safe" from the rest of the game.

    Another thing that could help is making invisible enemies still partially visible, so even if you can't target them directly anymore, you can know where they are, more or less, if you pay close attention, and then react when they come close, or try to attack them with cleave, AoE, or point blank skills. Multiple games do this with invisible enemies, where their invisible bodies distort the image around them a bit, letting you tell their position.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt? Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

    Knives (all have 3 charges)
    Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)
    Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)
    Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)
    Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

    Bombs (all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)
    Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)
    Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)
    Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)
    Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

    Venoms (all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)
    Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)
    Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

    Shadowsteps (all have ground targeting and 1200 range)
    Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)
    Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)
    Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)
    Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

    Yeah, that was the original idea. Instead of individual skills, you chose two belts with predetermined skills, and then you could swap between each of them. I switched to the standalone chain skills for the combo effect, but I might be back to this version if the new one doesn't convince me. The original idea was pretty much like yours, but with no cooldowns, using initiative instead (so you could spam the knives if you wanted). There were five belts, one for each trait line, and every new elite specialization got a new belt option as well. Right now I'm trying a new direction where elite specializations change the whole mechanic instead of adding new options, so I discarded that idea.

    I think venoms as "party-wide enchantments" could work really well, but they need some serious improvements. Another option is to turn them into stances.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    i would give it 1 skill called Hide
    insta hide, for 12 seconds with 35seconds reuse.

    and thats only stealth u get. obviously id fix backstab also to be without reuse again.

    now when some1 going to pop in that im just a thief hater, no im not i play thief since the moment i got the game but the amount of stealth some people pull off in order to fight some one is just pathetic.
    i played all kinds of weap sets on thief but i never used stealth in a main way to kill some1 or to kitten out again.
    stealth needs to be redone in this game for all classes not just thief.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

    @meepeY.2867 said:
    I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

    I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.
    The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

    For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

    If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

    TL:DR
    Stealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

    Yeah, stealth has problems too. Maybe it should be turned into a boon, so it can be applied and removed easily? We could make revealed a condition as well, that nullifies the stealth boon. Right now stealth and revealed are way too "safe" from the rest of the game.

    Another thing that could help is making invisible enemies still partially visible, so even if you can't target them directly anymore, you can know where they are, more or less, if you pay close attention, and then react when they come close, or try to attack them with cleave, AoE, or point blank skills. Multiple games do this with invisible enemies, where their invisible bodies distort the image around them a bit, letting you tell their position.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt? Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

    Knives (all have 3 charges)
    Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)
    Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)
    Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)
    Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

    Bombs (all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)
    Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)
    Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)
    Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)
    Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

    Venoms (all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)
    Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)
    Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

    Shadowsteps (all have ground targeting and 1200 range)
    Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)
    Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)
    Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)
    Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

    Yeah, that was the original idea. Instead of individual skills, you chose two belts with predetermined skills, and then you could swap between each of them. I switched to the standalone chain skills for the combo effect, but I might be back to this version if the new one doesn't convince me. The original idea was pretty much like yours, but with no cooldowns, using initiative instead (so you could spam the knives if you wanted). There were five belts, one for each trait line, and every new elite specialization got a new belt option as well. Right now I'm trying a new direction where elite specializations change the whole mechanic instead of adding new options, so I discarded that idea.

    I think venoms as "party-wide enchantments" could work really well, but they need some serious improvements. Another option is to turn them into stances.

    Yeah, I basically took your's and tried to improve it. My twist was to sort of standardize the skills while at the same time make them work with each other.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it. Out of Date
    These DE tips are still relevant. Out of Date

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @reddie.5861 said:
    i would give it 1 skill called Hide
    insta hide, for 12 seconds with 35seconds reuse.

    and thats only stealth u get. obviously id fix backstab also to be without reuse again.

    now when some1 going to pop in that im just a thief hater, no im not i play thief since the moment i got the game but the amount of stealth some people pull off in order to fight some one is just pathetic.
    i played all kinds of weap sets on thief but i never used stealth in a main way to kill some1 or to kitten out again.
    stealth needs to be redone in this game for all classes not just thief.

    Stealth becoming part of the mechanic and getting removed from everywhere else is an idea I've seen in the past, but I don't know. I think the way to solve those problems is to give stealth more counters, not to nerf it.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

    @meepeY.2867 said:
    I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

    I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.
    The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

    For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

    If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

    TL:DR
    Stealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

    Yeah, stealth has problems too. Maybe it should be turned into a boon, so it can be applied and removed easily? We could make revealed a condition as well, that nullifies the stealth boon. Right now stealth and revealed are way too "safe" from the rest of the game.

    Another thing that could help is making invisible enemies still partially visible, so even if you can't target them directly anymore, you can know where they are, more or less, if you pay close attention, and then react when they come close, or try to attack them with cleave, AoE, or point blank skills. Multiple games do this with invisible enemies, where their invisible bodies distort the image around them a bit, letting you tell their position.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt? Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

    Knives (all have 3 charges)
    Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)
    Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)
    Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)
    Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

    Bombs (all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)
    Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)
    Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)
    Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)
    Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

    Venoms (all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)
    Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)
    Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

    Shadowsteps (all have ground targeting and 1200 range)
    Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)
    Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)
    Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)
    Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

    Yeah, that was the original idea. Instead of individual skills, you chose two belts with predetermined skills, and then you could swap between each of them. I switched to the standalone chain skills for the combo effect, but I might be back to this version if the new one doesn't convince me. The original idea was pretty much like yours, but with no cooldowns, using initiative instead (so you could spam the knives if you wanted). There were five belts, one for each trait line, and every new elite specialization got a new belt option as well. Right now I'm trying a new direction where elite specializations change the whole mechanic instead of adding new options, so I discarded that idea.

    I think venoms as "party-wide enchantments" could work really well, but they need some serious improvements. Another option is to turn them into stances.

    Yeah, I basically took your's and tried to improve it. My twist was to sort of standardize the skills while at the same time make them work with each other.

    My problem with that idea is that I couldn't think about more than three belts (knives, bombs, shadowstep), and I would like to have at least 4-5.

    Do you have any other ideas, by any chance?

  • @Lonami.2987 said:

    • If you equip the same type of main-hand and off-hand weapon, you get 5 new skills.

    I have suggested this long long long time ago. Don't hold your breath. If I have, I would have been dead long time ago.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:
    i would give it 1 skill called Hide
    insta hide, for 12 seconds with 35seconds reuse.

    and thats only stealth u get. obviously id fix backstab also to be without reuse again.

    now when some1 going to pop in that im just a thief hater, no im not i play thief since the moment i got the game but the amount of stealth some people pull off in order to fight some one is just pathetic.
    i played all kinds of weap sets on thief but i never used stealth in a main way to kill some1 or to kitten out again.
    stealth needs to be redone in this game for all classes not just thief.

    Stealth becoming part of the mechanic and getting removed from everywhere else is an idea I've seen in the past, but I don't know. I think the way to solve those problems is to give stealth more counters, not to nerf it.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

    @meepeY.2867 said:
    I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

    I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.
    The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

    For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

    If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

    TL:DR
    Stealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

    Yeah, stealth has problems too. Maybe it should be turned into a boon, so it can be applied and removed easily? We could make revealed a condition as well, that nullifies the stealth boon. Right now stealth and revealed are way too "safe" from the rest of the game.

    Another thing that could help is making invisible enemies still partially visible, so even if you can't target them directly anymore, you can know where they are, more or less, if you pay close attention, and then react when they come close, or try to attack them with cleave, AoE, or point blank skills. Multiple games do this with invisible enemies, where their invisible bodies distort the image around them a bit, letting you tell their position.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt? Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

    Knives (all have 3 charges)
    Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)
    Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)
    Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)
    Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

    Bombs (all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)
    Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)
    Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)
    Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)
    Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

    Venoms (all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)
    Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)
    Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)
    Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

    Shadowsteps (all have ground targeting and 1200 range)
    Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)
    Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)
    Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)
    Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

    Yeah, that was the original idea. Instead of individual skills, you chose two belts with predetermined skills, and then you could swap between each of them. I switched to the standalone chain skills for the combo effect, but I might be back to this version if the new one doesn't convince me. The original idea was pretty much like yours, but with no cooldowns, using initiative instead (so you could spam the knives if you wanted). There were five belts, one for each trait line, and every new elite specialization got a new belt option as well. Right now I'm trying a new direction where elite specializations change the whole mechanic instead of adding new options, so I discarded that idea.

    I think venoms as "party-wide enchantments" could work really well, but they need some serious improvements. Another option is to turn them into stances.

    Yeah, I basically took your's and tried to improve it. My twist was to sort of standardize the skills while at the same time make them work with each other.

    My problem with that idea is that I couldn't think about more than three belts (knives, bombs, shadowstep), and I would like to have at least 4-5.

    Do you have any other ideas, by any chance?

    Besides turning the venoms and traps into toolbelt skills, no. Those two utility types really do not see much use because they're pretty niche. Especially venoms.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it. Out of Date
    These DE tips are still relevant. Out of Date

  • Ardenwolfe.8590Ardenwolfe.8590 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Give the thief a form of permanent stealth until discovered or the thief attacks. Yes, I know that'll be a very unpopular opinion among non-thieves, but stealth is what a thief is all about . . . in my humble opinion.

    No longer posting or playing.

  • Make thief's weapon kit synergize much better with other skills than their current state. Honestly, we're fast, agile, and can spam abilities. But you'd think we can pull off some of the best combos to extreme effect... but we can't.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Stealth becoming part of the mechanic and getting removed from everywhere else is an idea I've seen in the past, but I don't know. I think the way to solve those problems is to give stealth more counters, not to nerf it.

    while stealthed i do not apply any significant damage to my opponent, the moment i do i get revealed. so stealth basically just gives an opportunity to attack. if i just go for 0-3 seconds into stealth infight most people dont complain, they got a problem if i stay longer in stealth, wich i do not really understand. most ways to go into stealth can be interrupted, any form of smoke + leap/blast and refuge to remain further in stealth can be either interrupted or even used to reveal the thief. so there is already alot of counterplay possible to stealthstacking but i rarely see anyone using it at least not against me. while i stay in stealth i give myself and the opponent a break to regain resources like CD, endurance etc. if they do not rely on long CD skills, then it shouldnt be an issue balancewise. it is only an issue of annoyance as i can deny a certain kill with stealth, like yesterday i stomped an ele in an enemy tower in WvW and right after it like 30+ of his mates came around the corner, i was able to deny them killing me with stealth but i didnt kill anyone while in stealth.
    thief has basically 3 ways to fight: stealthy, hit and run with lots of mobility and evade spamm because a thief will lose trading hits with most classes. out of those 3 i prefer fighting as and against stealthy ones as they are the least annoying to me, i can kill most of them while they are in stealth, can only kill evadespammers during evade with surging rune for shockaura and the hit and run guys i am basically forced to hope they fail at running away or be as fast as them.
    in my opinion there is most counterplay to the stealthy thieves possible, most people i encounter are just unable to handle a stealthed thief. for instance while i hide alot in enemy keeps and towers in WvW to flip em later or kill some scouts, i see alot of minstreal guards spamming 1 of their staff how is that supposed to kill me? even when like 50 people in there, very few people use reveal abilities, noone steps into my black powder field hoping to reveal me (ok some ranger pets do that , they are clever) instead they set up 10 anti stealth traps while they dont know where i am so i see the position of those and can avoid them or trigger them and use shadow meld. if you are too slow to jump into my black powder field or drop range cc into it and got no reveal skills at hand, then try to bait me. if there is no objective around, there is no reason to worry about a living thief, if i am inside a tower/keep/camp then give me a nice target, either a player that looks like i can gank him (like some staff weaver / mesmer, they are most on berserks in WvW so i can onehit em with backstab) or the tower/keep lord and when i get out of stealth to engage my bait, gank me. there is no reason why i would go out of stealth if there are more then 2 opponents ahead, unless i think they are terribly bad - still most people when i engage a fight like 1 vs 5 stack together and spamm skills, why on earth would i attack that to reveal myself? even if i oneshot one of them, they could rez fasten then i could finish it. stealth only makes the thief annoying not strong, reduce his annoyance by not paying attention or pretending to not pay attention and he will come out. people tryharding to FORCE a thief out of stealth is what makes it 'strong' because you can bind alot of people to waste their time for you, while you not pose a threat to anyone.

    TLDR: stealth is not strong by itself, people being unable to handle it makes it strong and there is already more counterplay to stealth then to evadespamm or hit and run.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would not change the design of the thief much at all. It still the class I enjoy playing the most given its ACTIVE gameplay and how this works with the INI system wherein I feel more "in control" of my choices then i do when on those other professions. Some skills need tweaking. Some need to better integrate on a given weaponset, but it still fun to play.

  • I would delete thief's daredevil power spec from the game completely. I mean it's already half-way there, why not finish it off completely.
    I would also like to change how most qqers view thief so that they could understand that it's not as easy to play as smashing your face into the keyboard like it is with scourge and warrior.

    In all seriousness though. I would remove this idiotic -100% endurance gain when you dodge. And I'd give thief more condi clear.

  • PvE
    -->Redesign Daredevil: Instead of a staff, you get to carry a greatsword. Its abilities come close to the old zerker warrior.
    You only get to dodge twice, not three times like before. Greatsword damage is increased by 5%.
    Skill 1) [Assassins Strike]-->[Second Turn]-->[Shadows Smile] 3 abilities auto-chain with the last ability being a guaranteed crit. No cost.
    Skill 2) [Piercing Blades]: AoE Hundred blades like ability which looks like the old Fiora ultimate from LoL. Youre untargetable during the animation. Costs 5 Initiative.
    Skill 3) [Fortitude] You dash slightly forward (distance of a roll), hiting all enemys at your destination with your sword. Costs 3 Initiative.
    Skill 4) [Shadow Escape] You teleport slightly backwards (distance of a roll), leaving a shadow wall behind which blocks incoming projectiles. Costs 3 Initiative.
    Skill 5) [Legcut] Port BEHIND the enemy crippling him. Costs 5 Initiative.

    This is thought of as pure DPS, thats why there are no conditions or cc abilities.

    -->Redesign the steal-mechanic:
    a) You get stealth-ported BEHIND the enemy (could be based off a certain trait).
    b) You steal a UNIQUE ability which belongs to the enemy NPC and have access to it for a certain amount of time. During that time, the enemy NPC cant use said ability until you've used it.
    -->Add the following to the stealth-mechanic:
    Being invisible regenerates endurance much quicker.

  • Aplier.7829Aplier.7829 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2018

    The first thing I would do is to rebalance venoms to be less dependant on having a group and have less burst effect. In that vein, I'd swap the venom support trait (leeching venoms) from shadow arts with trap support from deadly arts (deadly trapper]

    Then i'd change venoms themselves to have a passive application on an ICD and the active still spread to teammates but lower effect. Unlike signets, activating the skill will not disable the passive part while it is on CD. This would give venom thief stronger duel potential with consistent condi pressure and make better use of their mobile/stealth hit and run tactics. And ideally with the CD reduction trait becoming essentially baseline for PVE builds, this should keep Condi thief's group pve damage roughly the same while giving it a bit more healing and damage when it can't venomshare.

    Spider Venom: currently 30 (6x5) stacks of 6s poison on 30s CD. Change to 3 hits of 6s poison on activation, and passive on-hit of applying 3 poison stacks with a 6 second duration on a 10 second ICD. New total of 24 poison stacks every 30 seconds, with 12 being applied by the thief.

    Skale Venom: currently 20 (4x5) stacks of 10s vuln and 5s torment on 30s CD. Change to 2 hits of 10s vuln and 5s torment on activation. And new passive of 5 stacks 5s vuln and 2 stacks of 5s torment on 10 second ICD. New total of 16 stacks torment every 30 seconds with 8 applied by the thief, and equivalent of 17.5 stacks 10s vuln, but shorter duration with higher concentration on the passive proc.

    Ice Drake Venom: currently 20 (4x5) stacks of 1s chill on 36 second CD. Change to 2 hits of 1s chill on activation, and passive of 2s chill on 10 second ICD. New total of ~21 seconds of chill every 36 seconds, with ~13 coming from the thief.

    Devourer Venom: currently 10 stacks (2x5) of 1s immobilize on 40 second CD. Keep active the same, add a passive 2s weakness on 10 second ICD.

    Skelk Venom (heal) keep the same for obvious reasons.

    Basilisk Venom make one attack unblockable on 20 second ICD, in addition to its current active (considering this used to give 2 attacks on activation that both stunned and were unlockable, I don't see this as being overly OP. Because to get two unblockable attacks in a row with this change you'd have to attack once, then take 1s to activate basi venom which the opponent can now react to since you've announced your presence, then the 2nd attack).

    Venoms aside, the other change I think thief needs is to make alacrity also increase initiative (our equivalent of weapon skill CDs) recharge by 33%. Power thief builds definitely need the helping hand (my estimates and best testing put this at being worth about 5-7% more dps for staff daredevil with full buffs), and if it proves to much of an increase for condi PVE builds which are already performing well then Death Blossom's bleed could be toned down just a bit.

  • @Lonami.2987 said:
    Do you feel like the thief could be much more? That his mechanics don't do his theme justice? Maybe his elite specializations have a weak design? Or do you just want to post some crazy ideas? Well, then this thread is for you.

    So, just for fun, how would you redesign the thief?

    How about that the thief profession would actually be a thief..err I mean the magician they usually are, instead of being a gimmick?
    And 'steal' would actually be steal and not some weirdo - hey what's that: o_O... <(flashy moves), o_o >--(how's this!) type of thing.
    So you could actually steal stuff etc.

    Cheers,

    • B
  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    • If you equip the same type of main-hand and off-hand weapon, you get 5 new skills.

    I have suggested this long long long time ago. Don't hold your breath. If I have, I would have been dead long time ago.

    Still wish it worked that way, and not just for thief. Dual-wielding is so underwhelming in this game :cry:.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    My problem with that idea is that I couldn't think about more than three belts (knives, bombs, shadowstep), and I would like to have at least 4-5.

    Do you have any other ideas, by any chance?

    Besides turning the venoms and traps into toolbelt skills, no. Those two utility types really do not see much use because they're pretty niche. Especially venoms.

    kitten, that's a pity. Seems I'll be sticking to the current one.

  • Kirin.7306Kirin.7306 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asur.9178 said:
    I'd start by getting rid of the initiative system so they can stop being so reserved with balancing the class properly.

    I'd also get rid of every single stealth ability in the game.

    Neither of those are going to happen; so, it's irrelevant to me what they do.

    yeah get rid of all stealth and those clones mesmers have

  • I do WvW and all I see is circles. All I feel is CC. even smallest mistake = death, slightest lag = death. Thief is single target class and it should remain such. Thief shoud be spiky and mobile. Reaction, controlled stealth and evades should be only skills required by thief. remove Bandits defence, Shadow refuge, they are useless. I was enemy number 1 on stealth skills cd, but now it's ok. Rework elite skills, give us more power or cheat with elite. we are not druids, warriors or pet lovers. Do not make thief to be yet another boring class. thief is villain, egoist and cheater. a character which cannot be caught easily. Even condi dmg cleanse is fine with thief. None of classes are designed to have universal build which leads to victory against others in all situations. I like distinction of classes and builds. Makes fights more interesting. There are few broken builds but there will be no evenness ever. attackers will kill, defenders will defend, supportes - support, haters will hate. choose your role. I love to charge into attack. slash slash = you dead. If not - it's me laying on the ground. I take that risk - it thrills me. do not make thief a cripple.

  • Maugetarr.6823Maugetarr.6823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    I wouldn't do a full redesign, just make it so trickery isn't a necessary trait line, although still remains a nice one.

    Steal 25 second CD base
    15 initiative base
    Initiative regeneration at 1 every 0.8 seconds
    Replace Kleptomaniac with a 3 second blind on steal
    Replace Preparedness with a 3 second chill on steal
    Change Quick pockets to 1 initiative on weaponswap (ICD 5 seconds), have it reduce weaponswap CD to 3 seconds
    Remove the steal CD reduction from Sleight of Hand, make it give you 1 stack of stability for 3 seconds (at the start of steal so stuff like reapers protection is negated) and keep the daze
    Lead attacks unchanged.

    Forgot two:
    First change is to remove the bounce and Cripple from dancing Dagger, reduce to 2 initiative. When it hits your opponent, you get a rollover skill for 2 initiative: instant cast, shadowstep to the player you hit with dancing Dagger and Cripple them (3 seconds), with no damage at all. My hope is that this helps D/D and P/D without adding any significant buffs to S/D.

    The second is to make deathblossom a skill shot similar to warrior's GS#3. Range 300. Total cast time 0.75 seconds, evade frames for 0.5 seconds right at the beginning. All the damage and bleeds stay the same. My hope is to keep it viable for condi builds, but raise the skill floor while making the utility more usable for power D/D builds.

  • Honestly, I think making 15 initiative baseline would be a big step in the right direction. It would open up some more build diversity for sure. I mean I cant think of anyone I know or that 've seen that doesn't take Trickery in PvP or WVW (granted there are other reasons i.e. Bountiful Theft and Sleight of Hand) but I think its about time 15 initiative should be baseline. With how high damage is now and the way game mechanics have changed a 12 initiative build is just a handicap these days.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    ToTC, Preparedness, Lead Attacks, and either BT or Trickster depending on your other lines are all standalone reasons to take Tr.
    Even with preparedness baseline I'd still take it solely for ToTC and Trickster alone because no other trait lines come close to providing this level of PvP utility.

    The thing about Trickery is that it's the one line that does more than one thing, and what it does, it does really well to compensate for the innate weaknesses of the rest of the thief.

    It's gotten slightly better since we finally have a real condi cleanse utility these days, but any kit not running OH pistol for example only has an interrupt via Trickery. Increased initiative is global cooldown reduction by an effective 25%. Lead Attacks is DA-level damage. Even fury application coming from CS being contingent on hitting a lower-health target is just objectively worse than ToTC which applies it and a mobility effect on-engage.

    Trickery is basically the same as the previous iteration of Soul Reaping on necromancer and the Defense line on warrior; without them, the class just kind of falls apart entirely unless all of the benefits are overcome elsewhere, which pigeon-holes you into what are usually just worse builds or ones which aren't any fun.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Cobrakon.3108Cobrakon.3108 Member ✭✭✭

    Id remove a significant part of their mobility, Making stealth more important disengage, but more so encouraging stay and win mechanics. The whole pecking strat would fall to the wayside. Autos would be reduced and main damage would come from high initiative skills or setups (like bs). Traps would ignore invulns... like if you trip on a wire.... you may not get damage becuase u have invuln but you should still trip on the ground. Gameplay would promote combos, and those combos would require skill but be intuitive so no animation cancels or camera angle bs. Counter attacks would give great reward in the form of damage, large attacks would expose you and if not down correctly could get you killed.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    ToTC, Preparedness, Lead Attacks, and either BT or Trickster depending on your other lines are all standalone reasons to take Tr.
    Even with preparedness baseline I'd still take it solely for ToTC and Trickster alone because no other trait lines come close to providing this level of PvP utility.

    The thing about Trickery is that it's the one line that does more than one thing, and what it does, it does really well to compensate for the innate weaknesses of the rest of the thief.

    It's gotten slightly better since we finally have a real condi cleanse utility these days, but any kit not running OH pistol for example only has an interrupt via Trickery. Increased initiative is global cooldown reduction by an effective 25%. Lead Attacks is DA-level damage. Even fury application coming from CS being contingent on hitting a lower-health target is just objectively worse than ToTC which applies it and a mobility effect on-engage.

    Trickery is basically the same as the previous iteration of Soul Reaping on necromancer and the Defense line on warrior; without them, the class just kind of falls apart entirely unless all of the benefits are overcome elsewhere, which pigeon-holes you into what are usually just worse builds or ones which aren't any fun.

    Right, I totally agree Trickery has way more going for it than just preparedness (why I said there are other reasons to take it obv) but I also think therein lies the problem. BUT I also think 12v15 initiative is also a brick wall for a lot of people. Bottom line, Trickery stagnates build diversity because we basically HAVE TO invest into that line to be competitive in PVP/WVW.

    Bottom line, BALANCE the trait lines better to allow for more build diversity that plays to the strengths of the weapon sets instead of baking so much into Steal and 1 trait line that thief falls apart without it.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    ToTC, Preparedness, Lead Attacks, and either BT or Trickster depending on your other lines are all standalone reasons to take Tr.
    Even with preparedness baseline I'd still take it solely for ToTC and Trickster alone because no other trait lines come close to providing this level of PvP utility.

    The thing about Trickery is that it's the one line that does more than one thing, and what it does, it does really well to compensate for the innate weaknesses of the rest of the thief.

    It's gotten slightly better since we finally have a real condi cleanse utility these days, but any kit not running OH pistol for example only has an interrupt via Trickery. Increased initiative is global cooldown reduction by an effective 25%. Lead Attacks is DA-level damage. Even fury application coming from CS being contingent on hitting a lower-health target is just objectively worse than ToTC which applies it and a mobility effect on-engage.

    Trickery is basically the same as the previous iteration of Soul Reaping on necromancer and the Defense line on warrior; without them, the class just kind of falls apart entirely unless all of the benefits are overcome elsewhere, which pigeon-holes you into what are usually just worse builds or ones which aren't any fun.

    Trickery definitely has more going for it than just preparedness, but as @Slugonaut.9841 pointed out, I think 2/3 of the minor traits in that line create a major problem for thief balance. I think it should have been made baseline when they did the initiative trait rework a couple of years ago where they moved both the top and bottom of initiative regen towards the middle. What I was putting forward was basically doing the same again, so hopefully Trickery would follow suit with CS as being a decent line, but not being necessary. A point I glossed is RFI, which might need a nerf with these changes I suggested to something like only gaining 3 initiative, but putting the CD at 30 seconds. I'm going to disagree slightly on preparedness though. It's not a CD reduction as much as it's an extra 0.5-1 charges for a single skill for the ammo system since it doesn't change the rate of regeneration. That's why my suggestion actually included a 25% increase to initiative regen while reducing some of the initiative gaining traits. Kleptomaniac is actually just as big of a hurdle as preparedness as it can represent a 10-20% increase in initiative gain depending on build and usage. Anyway, I think addressing those two minor traits would allow them to balance thief more easily going forward with perhaps moving damage from autos to the 2-5 skills as well.

  • A point that I should have mentioned in my response initially to this thread would be changing the SA traits Shadow's Embrace, Cloaked in Shadow, Resilience of Shadows, and Shadow's Rejuvenation. I'd like to see them moved to a more active version that revolves around gaining stealth, rather than just sitting in stealth by having them be reworked into a combination of how Shadow Protector and Daredevil dodge traits work (non-boon buffs). Something like, "when you gain stealth without having stealth 'effect' happens for X seconds. (ICD You seconds)." Gaining stealth in this context would mean going from not having stealth, to having stealth and not a re-application of stealth while you're already stealthed. So stealth stacking for longer periods of time wouldn't be encouraged as much whereas gaining stealth and then attacking would be a more appealing option.

    So for Shadow's Embrace it would be something like "upon entering stealth, lose 1 condition. Upon leaving stealth, lose 1 condition, ICD 5 seconds."

    Cloaked in Shadow - Gaining stealth blinds nearby foes. You cannot be critically hit for 5 seconds, ICD 5 seconds. This would change it to allow you to keep the effect for the 5 seconds even if you attacked, but if you stayed in stealth for longer than that, you'd lose it, until you came out and re-stealthed.

    Similarly, Shadow's Rejuvenation would be something like gain 1 initiative on entering stealth (ICD 5 seconds assuming they change initiative regeneration rate per my other post). Gain 200 health per second for 5 seconds upon entering stealth. ICD 5 seconds.

    Resilience of Shadow's would be "upon stealthing a player, that player receives 25% less damage for 5 seconds."

    I think changes to these traits could make the Shadow Arts line be more engaging in combat rather than encouraging sitting in stealth for so long.

  • The rework is simple, if I do say so myself.

    Change the F skills to be a functional tool belt. Rework a few utilities who's effects have been worked into the tool belt.

    F1- steal. Shadowstep and gain a stolen skill.
    F2- stolen skill. Keep current steal table against mobs in PvE. Against players, steal the 2 skill from thier current weapon set. (animate using the weapon skin of the stolen player)
    F3- Blinding Powder (replace the utility with something thematically appropriate)
    F4- Shadowstep (replace the utility with something thematically appropriate)
    Daredevil
    F5- can assign utilities to this key, (physical only.)
    Deadeye
    F5- Shadow Cloak - your character becomes shadows, allowing movement while immobilized, and increased movement speed. Leave a trail of short lived smoke fields in your wake as you move. (the intent is to have one long CD that can cancel the negatives of kneel.)

  • Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018

    I really wouldn't redesign it much.

    Just get rid of most of the unneeded/now-redundant nerfs. Fix bugs within their skills. Make their underwater game more enjoyable. And add some better synchronization to their weapon kits.

    And most importantly. Remove "No valid path to target"

  • Seraphic Creed.1498Seraphic Creed.1498 Member
    edited April 7, 2018

    Base Mechanics

    • Mug: Short-range, Steal 2-3 boons and deal life stealing damage. Short cooldown but uses a bit of initiative.
    • Trick: Long cooldowns, doesn't require initiative, can get reset with a rally. Complimentary Trick determined by primary weapon choice, for example, a Hook-rope for Sword, Gunpowder Trap for Pistol, Shuriken for Dagger, Snare Trap for Shortbow, Inflatable Bag for Harpoon/ Spear.
    • Shadow's Grace: Instantly Shadow-step a max distance towards a target, press again to step back towards initiated location, it's then on cool-down for a decent period of time. (Allows more freedom for other utility skills.)
    • Dual Wield is fine how it is IMO, except I agree that Dual Wielded Pistols and Daggers should have a 'double strike' on the default attack, with animations using both weapons.
    • Shortbow should be less... comical, I'm not fond of the magic bouncing arrows. Auto attack should fire 3 arrows in a fan that don't bounce but pierce though 1 target each.

    Daredevil Mechanics

    • Can use Staff.
    • Trick: Same as base except with the addition of the Staff Trick, which is an AOE Fear if you're under 40% health, an AOE taunt if you're over.
    • Shadow's Persistence: Shadow Step to the rear of a random nearby enemy, can be used 3-4 times before cooldown.
    • Extra Dodge and Evade customisation is great. Except I'd have a Leap for innately removing conditions and combo-ing with smoke fields, a Whirl but kind of like blurry, martial arts twist rather than the dagger throwing, upside-down whirl they have now, and that will do damage based on the weapon equipped as well as a Phase which would appear like teleportation but at a distance only somewhat further than the normal dodge.
    • No pickpocket but has a Reckless Haste mode, basically like Frenzy where you take more damage but can attack/ combo faster. (The idea is to avoid being hit)
    • The unique heal should heal passively depending on how many enemies are targeting the player, using it should restore endurance.

    Deadeye Mechanics

    • Can use Rifle, which has the longest range. Also gets new longer-range skills for Pistol and Shortbow maybe?
    • Mark is integrated with calling Targets for team-mates but also causes vulnerability. If the Mark dies within a certain time-frame nearby allies get healed and a buff, this also resets Gamble if it's on cooldown.
    • Shadow's Solace: Teleport away from target and stealth for 1-2 seconds.
    • Trick: Whole new set of Tricks for each weapon to change things up, Dagger = Running Speed Boost ect.
    • No Pickpocket but I really like this Gamble idea, so let's say if you initiate Gamble, it rolls a result which will determine a particular stance/ boon or detrimental debuff. One of these will be a really OP damage boost for the next attack from stealth but would only have a very small chance. There's also an equally small chance of jamming/ dulling your weapons.
  • Zedek.8932Zedek.8932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    Excelsior.
    Since I am fine with my chosen profession and will probably stick to it forever, I would not fix thief, but fix other professions.

    • Remove stealth from other professions.
    • Remove "speed" from other professions.
      Instead of removing these abilities what are part of the very core/basic design of a Thief profession, you could also turn them down on other professions, as in: "You have stealth, but if you want the real deal, you gotta be a thief!". Look at the range for example: Ranger excels Deadeye in range. It does not make a bit of sense, but okay, if I want more range, I should get a ranger (shivers, probably when the hell freezes over)

    What would I like to change a bit?

    • Getting rid of "Shadow This", "Shadow That" for everything. The Engineer got me into GW2, and I liked the diversity: Explosives, Chemicals, Fire. But also the healing skills made sense: Stimpacks, Bandages, AEDs. Make thieve's elite specialization more focussed around "black" or "shadow" magic. I see they are doing it right now with Deadeye a bit, but this required as an excuse as why we are still be able to steal while kneeling - we can't physically steal anymore as it was possible as Thief or Daredevil.
    • Make Thief more "mean", someone that people are more afraid of, not only annoyed of. First I thought the real "mean" profession would be Necromancer, but with the hole sniping and malice and cantrips, the Deadeye looks to be one of the heartless professions, because he'd kill his victims out from nowhere. But right now, thief is the jolly guy that jumps around with this butter knives and low-range weapons that pops up here and there to be annoying as a Poltergeist, but when you cough at him, he has to retreat. Thief lacks the - filter incomming - bad-kitten feel. Deadeye is my cup of tea, but just one step in the right direction.
    • Longer stealth duration in PvE. Gimme 10 seconds so I can change positions. Or what's with this kneeling stealth duration? I wish we had 2x the time of stealth, so we could get out of aggro (hey, we are invisible after all!!) or get out of AoEs because the enemy has no valid targets.
      EDIT: While we are at it, maybe Stealth becomes a one-button skill, too. Right now, it's always accompanied by something (stealing, kneeling, skill #5, healing skill). Why can't I just press, I don't know, F3 and vanish for 10 seconds? Stealth that is just there and not tied to a stipulation? Maybe it eats up initiative every 1 second, so when you choose to be unseen for 10+ seconds, you have no inititative left anyways. There are so many things to change that would beef up the joy immediately...

    Excelsior, my name is Zedexx; Asuran Deadeye and assassin.
    The Hunter / 2x Darksteel Pistols / 2x Whisper's Secret Daggers and my Springer. That's all I need and trust.
    "We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!"

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    thare is a lot i want to change to make the thief a feared toon in wvw and more useful in pve. some of the changes i would make are our stealth attacks to do more damage so everyone starts looking for thiefs more often for wvw but for pve makes us do more dps for right now so we can keep up with dragonhunter and the ele in dps time. the stealth needs a tweek for pve and wvw like a little longer so we can get to the right locations. in a whole im saddened that thief is not the number one single target dps or realy feared in wvw like the war or the guardion is.i hop this stuff get changed soon so thief can rain suprem as the king of single target dps in the game.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would delete them from the game.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    Bring back Impending Dhuum.
    No FotM for me, only thief, weak or strong.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belishine.7493 said:
    thare is a lot i want to change to make the thief a feared toon in wvw and more useful in pve. some of the changes i would make are our stealth attacks to do more damage so everyone starts looking for thiefs more often for wvw but for pve makes us do more dps for right now so we can keep up with dragonhunter and the ele in dps time. the stealth needs a tweek for pve and wvw like a little longer so we can get to the right locations. in a whole im saddened that thief is not the number one single target dps or realy feared in wvw like the war or the guardion is.i hop this stuff get changed soon so thief can rain suprem as the king of single target dps in the game.

    This. I remember those good old days when heartseeker hit 8k in PvP and backstab Even More. And in wvw backstab was easily over 10k without any setup.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018

    I would add an offhand sword to the core set of weapons:

    • Skill 4 could be a parry skill that blocks for 2 seconds., blocking projectiles unless an attack in melee range is blocked, in which case it will shadowstep behind the attacker and daze, and if that daze interrupts a skill, also deal damage and vulnerability.
    • Skill 5 could be a very short dash in any direction that evades for half a second while damaging up to 3 enemies in its path. The dash would not make the character turn in the direction of the movement, keeping the same orientation. So you could, for instance, dash behind an enemy that was behind you to face their back without having to turn after dashing.

    I would give several of their skills skill ammo, so they still work with initiative, but can have recharges that limit their spammability. Some would have their initiative cost reduced a bit, and in the case of some sequence skills, removed since the skill count already limits how much they can be used.

    This would only be done for a few skills that players tend to use over and over, like Unload, Vault, Pistol Whip, Death Blossom and Headshot. In most cases the number of charges would be generous, and would only be felt by players that were accompanying them with lots of initiative recovery to spam them constantly, ignoring all other skills and engaging in repetitive behavior.

    For example, Unload could have 5 ammo with 10s recharge each charge. And Ankle Shots would be changed to reduce the recharge of the charges to 8 seconds.

    This would encourage using more and more often all other weapon skills instead trying to save initiative for a few.


    To make core thief more unique like with necromancer and its different shroud, I would give core thief a distinctive mechanic that is lost when equipping an elite specialization.

    For example, extra 'pockets' for stolen skills. Instead just having F1 and F2, Core thief would have F3 as and additional pocket, and Improvisation would no longer allow using stolen skills twice, it would instead add extra pockets in F4 and F5. Daredevil and Deadeye will not have these extra pockets, and for them Improvisation will only give 1 extra stolen skill slot using F3, or work using stolen skills twice as before.


    Since Shortbow doesn't have a trait of its own, but Pressure Striking works well with it, I would change the trait into the actual Shortbow trait also making each cast of Choking Gas refund 1 initiative if any of its pulses interrupts (or damage a defiance bar) at least 2 enemies at the same time . This would only happen once per use of Chocking Gas.

  • Love the ideas, though the usage of the word "Dices" over "Dice" is weird.

    I honestly want to see a Daredevil rework. I feel like I don't use many of the other skills much but mash 1. I think the other skills need a little more utility, and the slight animation lag on 5 and the lack of distance makes me never really want to use it.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    I know thumbs down option would be abused but I wish we had one for these threads. "scrap everything about thief class and make it like the other classes". Clean up some bugs and change a thing or three but the design of thief is mostly fine.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:
    I know thumbs down option would be abused but I wish we had one for these threads. "scrap everything about thief class and make it like the other classes". Clean up some bugs and change a thing or three but the design of thief is mostly fine.

    Thought the thread name was "how would YOU redesign the thief" and not "how would you redesign the thief to fit kash likings".

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2018

    My Currrent Concept

    Thief

    Weapons Thief should use baseline:

    • Daggers
    • Swords (Offhand now added)
    • Pistols
    • Rifle (DE merged into Core Thief, E-Spec replaced with Longbow Rogue)
    • Shortbow
    • Staff (Usable via Dervish Spec, reworked Daredevil)

    Thief Gameplay Mechanics

    • Initiative & Shadow Instinct
    • Stealth & Assaults (Renamed Stealth Attacks)
    • Dodge Styles & Increased Endurance
    • Shadow Steps & Shadow Doppelgangers
    • Stolen Skills/ Steal & Disarming/Suppressions
    • Boon Steal & Share
    • Trap Control/ Trapping
    • Evasion & Counterattacks
    • Venoms
    • Thief Tools

    This is basicallyl everything around the Thief and its Elite Specializations, which makes up together the IDENTITY of a Thief, when you just simply ask yourself, what do you expect from a Thief in a game like GW2, what should a trustworthy Thief be able to do - this little list would be my personal answer.
    This are the gameplay aspects, which I'm awaiting from a true thief, that it should be able to fulfill these things somehow - either via Skills, Traits or other gameplay mechanics that are part of the Class, like the F-Buttons. Why do I write this up now, because like I mentioned somewhere else, I'm at the opinion, that the Thief Class has lost it's identity over the time, since HoT.

    Initiative & Shadow Instinct

    Shadow instinct is a concept that I take over now from my Raider Concept to implement into the Core Thief and make it this way a baseline gameplay element to help balancing the overall Thief, and because its a cool mechanic that can help making Initiative in itself more intersting, if its bonded to another similar mechanic with that they both can be synergized with, if used inteligently together.
    Shadow Instinct in itself is an upgraded from of Assaults - Special Skills which can be used only in Stealth for some cost of Shadow Instinct, with the speciality that they don't make you reveal, for the cost that they reduce temporarely your maximum Initiative Pool.
    The maximum Initiative Pool of the Thief under this Concept will be set at 20. There are no Traits anymore, which raise the maximum Initiative, like Preparedness
    If you use a Shadow Instinct Skill that costs you 4 SI, then this will reduce temporarely after reveal your Initiative Pool also by 4. Simple Concept that is there to force the player not to spam too much Shadow Instinct Skills, but rather use them at tactical good moments where you need to be offensive, but also stay stealthed for a while, where getting revealed would mean otherwise your death, but using a Shadow Instinct would turn the battle rather to your favor most likely, before the enemy gets to see you.

    Stealth and Assaults

    Stealth will get reworked under this Concept. It won't be a Buff anymore, but works now instead as a Boon with Intensity Mechanic, where having more Stacks of Stealth means longer Durations and more intense Stealth, so that you need a certain amount of Stealth Stacks now to be completely invisible.
    But therefore are Stealth Durations now significantly longer, especially if you are builded for Concentration, which can now boost the efficiency of your Stealth Durations then. Assaults will get now then also affected by the amount of Stealth Stacks you have, as the amount of Stealth Stacks will influence now the efficiency of your Assault Skills, the former Stealth Attacks, which have been now remaed to a shorter and better fitting term of Assaults.
    This means, a Backstab Assault with now for example 15 Stacks of Stealth will be now more powerful, than a Backstab Assault with only 10 Stacks of Stealth, meaning now that positioning under stealth will become more important for Thieves, so that they try to perform their Assaults as quick as possible, so that they won't lose efficiency too much over time as their amount of Stealth Stacks sinks meanwhile. Direct Reveal Skills will get removed/ reworked. Boon Removal is now the natural Counterplay of Stealth.

    Dodge Styles and Increased Endurance

    As part of merging the Daredevil into the Core Thief gameplay will receive Core Thieves now baseline the increased Endurance bar of 3 Dodges instead of two, makign this way Thieves compared to all other Classes more unique in general, underlining this way more their superiority of mobility and evasiveness, which shouldnt be reliant on a single Elite Specialization, which has been used by anet to destroy the Agility Traitline of the Core Thief, just so that Daredevil received a reason for its existance to come close again to the kind of Mobility, which Thieves have had, before Anet introduced Daredevils.
    Dodge Styles will become now an integrated part of Thieves as well, making it possible for Thief Players to choose one out of now 5 different possible Dodge Styles to be used in Combat. Dodge Styles can be changed then while being outside of Combat.
    Thieves won't have unlike all other Classes no generic dodges anymore, each of their dodges will feel now different and part of the martial artistical playstyle of a Thief.
    F3 is now the Dodge Style Skill Slot.

    Shadow Steps and Shadow Doppelgangers

    As masters of Shadow Arts, I expect alot more from Thieves especially in this kind of category. Now that there exists an Ammo System.
    Instead of turning a Weapon of the Thief into a Shadow Step Tool should use the Thief Class Shadow Steps as part of their integral Gameplay that isn't ruled by just a single weapon, but should be part of the Thief Class, regardless of which Weapon you use, so that Thieves can have more build Diversity, without being crippled by their mobility due to being forced to use one specific weapon for it, if you want to have mobility.
    Thats why I agree here in this point with the concept of an other player, that Shadow Steeping needs to become one of the Thief's general Thief Tools, because high mobility is the most important key element of the whole Thief Class Design, this Class lives from Mobility, take its Mobility away and the Thief is literally nothing now but a free victim for all others, if they'd have no Stealth to flee safely.
    Shadow Steps will be turned into an Ammo Skill under F4, to allow the Thief to perform several Shadow Steps in a quick row, if needed, therefore it comes with no Blindness anymore and would have longer cooldowns, than it would take under Initiative to recharge, meaning it can't be spammed anymore, but will have longer range with now 1200 distance, instead of 900. and bigger ground target circles to reduce the chance, that you will get to see the error message of not being able to shadow step to that location, cause with bigger ground target is also the chance bigger, that the game iwll recognize a successful spot within that ground target to which yiou can be shadow stepped, than with smaller ground target circles.
    Shadow Dopppelgangers will be the offensive way of using this Thief Tool, by charging the Shadow Control Skill up.
    Tip and Release = Shadow Step Ground Target
    Press and Hold = Charge the Skill and and create a Shadow Doppelganger, which is a perfect Shadow Duplication of yourself, which has your Player Build, that will attack your Target that you are attackingas well with exactly the same Skills you are using. If it gets defeated, before its duration ends, then the original you will receive a portion of the Doppelgangers Health back as a Heal and some Conditions removed. Doppelganger Health is 85% of the Original. Duration is 30s. You can have only one of them at any time and they look exactly like you, so if you go into stealth, while they are visible - chances are good that they will draw attention away from you, so that you can surprise the foe from behind when being traited for receving Stealth Stacks on using Shadow Control.

    Stolen Skills/ Steal & Disarming/Suppressions

    Another Speciality of the Core Thief and its Elite Specs under this Concept, the Rogue.
    This point has nothign big, what needs to be changed. It are F1 and F2, where F1 stays as the Steal Mechanic, and F2 stays as the Stolen Skill-Skill Slot which shows your your result of having used Steal on an enemy. The only thign I'd change under my concept here is changing the list of the Stolen Skills, giving thives alot more of interesting and useful Stolen Skills, while giving each Class from which you steal multiple different Stolen Skills as chance to receive, so that you don't always from enemies of specific Classes always one and the same thing, like receving from Mesmers always only a Glob of Ectoplasm.
    Each Steal from Class X should end up in receiving 1 out of 3 possible things.
    Disarming and Suppressions on the other hand would be the unique Gameplay Mechanics of the Rogue Specialization with Stolen Skills being replaced with Disarms which cause Suppressions to foes. A Suppression is a Rogue unique Debuff, which directly decreases significantly the Attributes of an disarmed foe, making this way the Rogue an effective Debuffer on the battlefields which weaken their foes directly by reducing their Attributes. Like a Warrior can buff Attributes directly by usign Banners, Rogues would becoem the natural Counter to this then - giving the game finally counterplay to banners, which are for 6 years now buffs, which have no counterplay, cause yu can#t remove the banners from your foes, you can't take them for yourself, they are no environmental item you can sabotage to use their effects for yourself instead, so it is neccessary to have Rogues, which can disarm foes to weaken them directly and reduce their Attributes by this directly as a counter to Banners. Fearsome Thieves and Rogues, suppress their enemies by just their presence on the battlefields, thats the role of a Thief to weaken their enemies and to debuff them, so that your allied soldiers and rangers have an easier time of dealing significantly more damage to your foes. By this being said are Thieves basically Front Combat Supporters. This is why they are good at basically +1ing, but they need to become also again effective in dueling and taking out quickly and effectively single targets, thats also a thief's speciality as assassins, which is why stolen skilsl need to become better, they are a thief's key element of improvisation to outplay single enemies, to turn combats against single targets to your favor., which is why it is important, that Steal should provide multiple different Stolen Skill options per Class, so that this kind of improvisation becomes more impactful for thieves, instead of being permanently so one sided with always the same skilsl that you gain only, making this way thieves more predictable, than they should be.

    Boon Steal & Share

    This is something, which needs to get its focus set completely to the Rogue Specialization in regard of Boon Sharing, while the Thief should become signficantly better at Boon Stealing. Skills that remove so far only boons, should in fact steal those Boons from foes, so that the Thief profitates from them.
    The Rogue is specialized in sharing the Boonms, he steals, making this way the Rogue the clear boon based Thief Specialization, that is focused on Group Support, cause a Rogue alone is weak, a Rogue, who shares his stolen goods with its gang, is strong. They aren't like Thieves lone wolves which hunt and roam alone. Rogues get real strong from their steal and boon based teamwork with that Rogues become ideal partners for especially Raids and Squads in WvW.

    Trap Control & Trapping

    This is basically already part of the Core Thief, nothing great, nothing real new. But under my vsion of a thief, I expect from a Thief as masters of stealing things, that they are able to detect and remove traps. Traps are sadly liek banners a Gameplay Mechanic in Guild Wars 2, which have since 6 years no real counterplay, You can't do anythign agaisnt traps ion this game, except hoping for it that you don't run into them - which is really bad.
    When we can set traps, then it should be also able for experienced classes that can use traps, to be able to detect ands remove them - so this means not only the Thief, but especialyl also Rangers should be too able to detect and remove Traps, same as Dragonhunters. This shoudl be really no rocket science, that this needs to happen to be able to balance better this game as also to add a new element of group support into this game, which just needs to exist - the ability to control all the trapping in this game, by detecting and removing them for you allies, so that they don't run into them, before it is too late. Easily added to the Thief via Trait, or as part of their Skills.

    Evasion & Counterattacks

    Thieves have not very much ways to mitigate damage. This should get changed under my concept by increasing slightly their access to skills and traits, which enable them to have a bit more access to auto evasion effects to help them mitigate in a more fluid way incoming damage, instead of needing to blind foes for that and fuel this way the effect spam of conditions. As part of this should be added also a thief unique gameplay aspect, that is counterattacking foes if traited their auto evasions to become blocks instead which lead then to counterattacksg to turn your auto evansions this way into a more offensive form. Kind of what Darevevils have with that one Block Physical Skills, just more in fluid natural way performed by evading enemy attacks, cause thats what i await from an martial artistic acrobatic thief - to know how to parry attacks and use the enemy's motion energy agaisnt themself. Gentle Fist Combat so to say...

    Venoms

    Venoms would I completely rework, the way they work now are they too meaningless, to quickly over, to be really impactful for Condition Builds, unless used for some short Condition Bursts, they are useless the way they are now. Id change all Venoms to use the Ammo System, giving the thief on usage of a Venom Ampule which is basically now the Ammo a set amount of time, in which all of your attacks have a chance to cause a specific Condition, instead of only like 2-3 hits doing a Condition and then the effect of the Venom is already over with a certain duration in which you are able to deal those few hits, before the effect ends.
    This way are Venoms especially useful with builds, that are able to perform in short tiem many hits, giving you this way more chances to deal the specific condition to as many foes as you can hit in the duration time and not just only 1 single target. This way will be Venoms then alot more useful, especially when shared with allies.

    Thief Tools

    Thief Tools are basically the Core Thief's F5 Skill Slot, which would give them the option of using one out of 5 different classical Thief Tools, like for example a Grappling Hook, which will be the improved changed version basically of Scorpion Wire being now a generral gameplay mechanic of the Thief instead of being a Utility Skill.
    Or Throwing Weapons, like a Chakram or Shurikens, or a Thief Mantle which stealths you infintely as long you stay immobile. This is basicalyl there to give the Thief gameplay some more flavor, so that a Thief can do, what you expect from a Thief to do.


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    Stolen Skills

    Following 3 Stolen Skills should the Thief and its Specs randomly receive under this Concept when stealing from Enemy Players in PvP and WvW:

    Warrior
    1) Whirling Axe = Spin yourself around with Axes in your hands and deal Damage over time to all your surrounding direct nearby foes. You can move while spinning and compared to the Warrior Version has each hit here also a Chance to cause Bleedings of 50% If you steal from an Axe Warrior, he wil lbe forced to switch his Weapon Set.
    2) Banner of Discipline = Steal a Banner of Discipline from the Warrior, which you can use then to buff you and your allies with increased Precision and Ferocity and aside of the Warriror Version, does this stolen Banner grant you and allies also Vigor inside of its effect range periodically every few seconds.
    3) Tripple Shot= Steal the Longbow of the Warrior and perform with it instead of just a Dual Shot a Tripple Shot againstt your Target, as replaced AA until you run out of stolen Arrows (12). So you can perform 4x Tripple Shot, then you return to your own Weapon. If you steal from a Longbow Warrior, he will be forced to switch his Weapon Set.

    Guardian
    1) Head Cracker = Daze your hit foe with your stolen Mace. Causes unlike the original Skill of the Guardian also Confusion and if you steal from a mace guardian, it forces him to switch the Weapon Set.
    2) Deflective Shield = Reflect back any incoming attack of your enemy with 150% of its original power back to your foe within its 2 seconds of Block Time. If you steal from a Shield Guardien, it will force him to switch his Weapon Set.
    3) Blade of Purity = Leap to your your Target foe, causing AoE Damage at the Target Spot up to 5 Targets, while giving up to 1 of your Conditions per hit Target to your hit Targets. If you steal from a Greastword Guardian it will force him to switch his Weapon Set.

    Revenant
    1) Mist Assault = Immitate the Revenants Skill of Unrelenting Assault agaisnt your Target Enemy with their stolen Swords. Forces sword using Revenentsto switch the Weapon Sets
    2) Windmill Strike = Immitate the Revenants Skill of Surge of the Mists against your Target Enemy with their stolen Staves. Forces Staff using Revenants to switch the Weapon Sets
    3) Shadow Rift = Immitate the Revenants Skill Temporal Rift agaisnt your Target Enemy with their stolen Axes. Forces Axe using Revenants to switch the Weapon Sets.

    Engineer
    1) Gunk Grenade =Throw a stolen Gunk Grenade, causing at its ground target random conditions periodically.
    2) Stolen Elixier C = Steal an Elixier C from the Engineer, which will convert all your Conditions into random Boons and additionally refills all your Initiative.
    3) Stolen Flamethrower = Steal a Flamethrower from your Engineer Enemy. If this happens, while hes using a Flamethrower on you, his utility Skill will get deactivated and become unuseable, until you have used the Flamethrower and its fuel is over, or you throw it away to return to your own skills.

    Ranger
    1) Healing Seed = Use a stolen healing Seed to create a periodical Healing Area, which grants Regeneration and Removes Conditions, while addtionally increasign inside of its Range for you your Healing Power and those of your Allies., unlike the original version of the Ranger.
    2) Stalker's Strike = Use the stolen Dagger of the Ranger to strike your Target with it, causing poison and additionally unlike the original Torment to your foe, while evading incoming attacks. If you steal from a Dagger ranger, this will force him to switch his Weapno Set.
    3) Bonfire = Use the stolen Torch of the Ranger to create a Bonfire to set surrounding foes on fire, causign Burning, while creatign a Fire field that can be used by you for Combo Effects like Area Might for example. If you steal from a Torch Ranger, this will force him to switch his Weapon Set

    Thief
    1) Blinding Tuft = Use this Skill to gain some Stacks of Stealth, while blinding nearby foes. The amount of Stacks of Stealth receives a Bonus Stacks per blinded foe.
    2) Dancing Daggers = Steal a pair of Dancing Daggers to throw, causing with them Cripple and Torment on hit foes they bounce to. Forces Dagger using Thieves to switch to their other Weapon Sets, if you steal from them while they use Daggers.
    3) Bulletstorm = Steal some Pistols and unload them agaist your Target Enemy. If you steal from an Enemy Thief that uses Pistols, this will force him to switch his Weapon Sets.

    Elementalist
    1) Stolen Frostbow = Steal a conjured Frostbow from your Elementalist Enemy with one charge to perform a Freeze Shot, which will immobilize your foe, until he breaks itself out of the ice prison by using AA until the ice breaks.
    2) Stolen Lava Axe = Steal a conjured Lava Axe from your Elementalist Enemy with one charge to perform a Phoenix Tomahawk, which will damage and burn foes on its way to your target and back to you, where it will grant you Regeneration and Vigor then.
    3) Stolen Rock Shield = Steal a conjured Rock Shield from your Elementalist Enemy, with one charge to perform Stoneflesh Aura, letting you mitigate the next incoming 3 hits, while causing with your next attack also Petrification to make your foe immobile for 1s.

    Mesmer
    1) Orb of Plasma = Gain all Boons for some time.
    2) Chaosbringer = Steal the Staff of the Mesmer, letting you perform Chaos Storms. If you steal from a Staff using Mesmer, this will force him to switch Weapon Sets.
    3) Blurred Frenzy Steal the Sword of the Mesmer, letting you perform Blurred Frenzy to deal damage, while auto evading incoming attacks. Forces the Sword Mesmer to switch his Weapon Set.

    Necromancer
    1) Skull of Death = Fear all nearby foes for up to 2 seconds. Your version causes additionally Torment in that time.
    2) Vampiric Strikes = Steal the Dagger of the Necromancer, to gain Vampiric Strikes, an automatic Buff, which lets your next 3 attacks leech health from your foes you hit. Forces the Dagger Necromancer to switch his Weapon Set.
    3) Mark of Soul Steal = Steal the Staff of the Necromancer, to perform a Mark of Soul Steal, forcing this way the Staff necromancer to switch his Weapon Set. Enemies that Enter the Mark of Soul Steal become stunned for 2 seconds and lose in that time all health regenerating effects from Boons, Skills and Traits, transferring them in that time to you instead.


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


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