How would you redesign the thief?

Do you feel like the thief could be much more? That his mechanics don't do his theme justice? Maybe his elite specializations have a weak design? Or do you just want to post some crazy ideas? Well, then this thread is for you.

So, just for fun, how would you redesign the thief?

Last update here: July 6, 2018

Few personal ideas to start the thread:

Thief - Replace Steal with a Skill Belt

Personally, I don’t like steal too much. It’s just a quick teleport that gives you some random skill (most of the time pretty forgettable). It’s just boring, design-wise, for the profession mechanic. It could be much more.

A thief should have many dirty tricks up his sleeve, and the mechanic bar is kinda wasted with no additional skills. So, what about a skill belt, with some good old throwing weapons?

You would have three mechanic skill slots: F1, F2, and F3. You would be able to customize each slot with an unique mechanic skill, freely chosen from a list. They wouldn't be very useful separately, and you would need to combine them. What would make them special is that they would all be chain skills, and all three skills would advance chain steps progress simultaneously (so, when you use one, the three would step to the second stage). These skills would also provide various simple combo field and finisher options.

The goal of these belt skills is to give you an unique combo system, reminiscent of martial arts. Something that feels sneaky and tricky, and that while simple, can lead to many interesting combinations, which can be really useful if used right.

Some examples:

• Knife: Throw one / Throw two / Throw three, bleed if all hit - Short range, projectile finisher
• Dart: Throw one / Throw three / Throw five, cripple if all hit - Short range, projectile finisher
• Firecracker: Point-blank, area blind, smoke field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, burning
• Stink Bomb: Point-blank, area weakness, poison field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, poison
• Shadowstep: Select target, shadowstep behind / select target, smoke field, shadowstep away / Select target, shadowstep behind, leap finisher
• Whirl: Reflect projectiles / poison field, reflect projectiles / Reflect projectiles, whirl finisher - Short duration

These belt skills would spend initiative, just like weapon skills. They would benefit from active venoms as well, which would let you apply them in new ways.

The concept behind these belt skills could be too similar to some of the daredevil physical slot skills, which could need replacements. A good opportunity to focus more on melee martial arts for the daredevil, a theme that doesn’t reach its full potential now.

Think of the engineer tool belt, but customizable, with simple but versatile skills.

Thief - Dual Wield redesign

The current Dual Wield model gives an unique 3rd skill depending on the main-hand and the off-hand weapon. However, this can be problematic in the long term, for you need to create new skills for every combination, and each new weapon you add will grow that number, exponentially. Also, it’s kinda boring to wield two pistols and only fire one at a time, except the 3rd skill.

So, this dual wield rework would be something like this:

• Special 3rd dual wield skill removed. Now the 3rd skill is always dependent on the main-hand weapon, like with every other profession.
• If you equip the same type of main-hand and off-hand weapon, you get 5 new skills.

It’s more work in the short term, but less in the long term, and lets you wield two pistols and use both at the same time, with a new autoattack where you fire both of them, and a 5th skill where you spin while firing or something. Cool stuff, and an actual real dual wield.

Some skills could be similar to when you wield different types, there’s no need for the 5 of them to be 100% unique. As for the removed 3rd skills that are not recycled, most of their variations are pretty similar, so nothing of value would be lost.

This model is interesting, and could be theoretically applied to other professions as well, though the nature of the thief makes him the priority.

Daredevil - Partial redesign

I feel like the first elite specialization fell flat in so many ways. I'm an advocate for mechanic bar changes with every elite specialization, and the daredevil got none of that, just an alternate dodge. It's not enough.

There's a "martial arts" theme here, but it's not fleshed properly. That can be a good starting point.

First of all, I would apply the Replace Steal with a Skill Belt idea from above, and improve it, by adding two additional slots, F4 and F5, where you can equip more belt skills. Additionally, the daredevil would get new belt skills options.

For example:

• Rock: Stun / Knockdown / Knockback - Single projectile, short range, short duration, projectile finisher
• Flare: Point-blank, area blindness, dark field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, confusion
• Roll: Evade forward / dark field, evade backwards / Evade forward, blast finisher - Stun break

Two of the physical slot skills feel way too similar to the belt skills, dealing with knives and such, so I would remove them, and replace them with other close combat melee martial movements, both of them with chains. Then I would upgrade the rest to have three step chains, even the healing skill, to reinforce the theme of the elite specialization.

As for the alternate dodge, I'm happy with it, and wouldn't change it too much. Maybe make it more customizable, or easier to select, but keep the original skills.

These changes would also establish daredevil as the core elite specialization, keeping the original thief gameplay almost intact, and letting all other elite specializations go wild with new mechanics and gameplay ideas.

Deadeye - Full redesign

I feel like the deadeye doesn't have a strong theme, and lacks personality. It's just some random guy with a rifle.

A cool theme for the elite specialization could be "high risk, high reward". This would be reflected by new rifle skills, that let you channel for greater damage, at the risk of being interrupted and losing initiative, and gambling elements in the slot skills, that let you "throw a dice" to get an effect, and throw again if you don't like it, for a chance of better or worse result.

So, the new deadeye would be a desert brigand, who loves games of chance, hangs out in the Amnoon casino, and kneels to pray to some pagan goddess of fortune.

The first step is to remove Malice and Deadeye's Mark altogether. They're cool mechanics, but I don't think they fit this particular elite specialization too much. Now we have a clear slate.

The second step is to take Kneel further, and turn it into a mechanic skill, affecting all weapon skills, kinda like an elementalist attunement. The melee skills would get ranged or shadowstep alternatives, and every weapon would get a "hold for more damage" channeling skill in the 5th skill. The rest of the skills wouldn't undergo great upgrades, just minor changes to reflect the alternate mode. As with the original kneel skill, the kneel mode would disable basic movement.

Steal would be gone, too, replaced by a new mechanic, Dices. F1, F2, and F3 would each represent a different dice, and they would be free to throw, but have a cooldown of 10 seconds afterwards. Throwing dices would apply a new effect, Blessed by Luck, stacking depending on the dice results. Specific combinations of dices could apply bonus effects as well.

The cantrips would be removed and replaced by glyphs, with different effects depending on the current mode (normal or kneel). Their effects would be randomized, and themed around different games of chance, specially cards. They would have a bonus chance for the better results the more Blessed by Luck you have at the moment of the activation.

Each stack of Blessed by Luck would boost precision, and improve the effects of glyphs, as well as weapon skills, but only in kneel mode. Some of these skills would forcefully reset the dices, while others would consume some of the blessed by luck stacks. The key of the elite specialization is learning how to manage your resources, calculating risk and reward of your actions. Blessed by Luck would last for 1 minute, and you would need to refresh it now and then, by throwing one dice again.

You can use the channeled skills to do more damage, but when should you stop and fire? If you take too long, your enemy could interrupt you, or find cover. You may not like the current amount of Blessed by Luck, but maybe you get a worse result if you're greedy? Maybe you have a good dice combination, but the effect is running out, so you have to choose between spending the stacks on the elite skill, or throwing one dice again to refresh the timer.

I think this could prove a very interesting gameplay, pretty fun with the highs and downs, and really powerful for those who can micromanage the high risk high reward situation.

Just some random ideas to begin the thread. Waiting for yours! =)

Profession Redesign series:Elementalist - Mesmer - Necromancer - Engineer - Ranger - Thief - Guardian - Revenant - Warrior

The only thing i want to re-design is understanding of thief from devs and every scrub that cries "omg teef op" but never tried one himself.

That being said i want thief to have supporty spec (gimmi bard) so double thief doesn't cause mass tantrum every match.

On DareDevilI wouldn't redesign the thief, I would put caltrops back to 2 bleeds so condi can once again be competitive with holosmith, mirage, and spellbreaker. I'm not talking about being able to beat button smashers, come on, that is a given. I am talking about equal results for equal skills. right now thief loses iits ability to regenerate energy to so many classes, and now the bleed nerf. I guess the design is as follows, make no one want to solo roam on thief classes so they solo roam on build carry gimmicks. Holo with that huge blast me down stun and reveal, Mesmer with invuln, invis, and high dps cap, soulbeast with 3000 range and backstab level dps, and warrior resistance make thief down right hard to play. I do win against a lot of people, but not against pof players that are equal or slightly less as good at the game. Most people who use deadeye use it as a novelty, but they wont main it. If Anet made deadeye op enough for people to bandwagon it, then duelists would begin to dominate every class in the game with ease. So they cant. Thief players cling to their class because they love it. I am not saying buff the kitten out of it, I am just saying stop nerfing any part of it. I bought pof, but the game play that is required (hide and seek, pirate ship) has left me wanting more. Thief is a roamer, not a blobber. If blobbing classes are crying because they cant 1 hit a solo class, then so be it. If you want to determine what classes are most op, then look to the servers with the highest KDR and see exactly what they are running in mass. Maguuma, who openly tanks on purpose, would be a great place to start looking.

@Lonami.2987 said:

• If you equip the same type of main-hand and off-hand weapon, you get 5 new skills.Yes, please! I always felt like there were some severe synergy issues when it comes to stuff like P/P which makes it feel like an unfinished afterthought as a result of it.

I'd also like to see a rework for acrobatics since it's basically just an inferior version of daredevil at this point.

• I would completely remove Daredevil and Deadeye first
• Then I'd fix the Core Traitlines of the Thief and make sure to strengthen them all in such a way, that Thief can again shine in some own areas and becomes finaly useful in all Game Modes again, while also receiving back its identity with features, that should belong to a Thief Class and what people expect from Thieves what they should do - Boon Stealing and Sharing as like Trap Control, Diasarming of Enemies, weakening Foes Attributes this way, so that they can't deal such heavy bursts anymore and give them some proper Group Support.
• Then I'd improve their Stealth and Shadow Step Mechanics to make sure, that Thief becomes the clear most mobile Class of all, which can't be anymore outrun by Warriors in HEAVY ARMORS, without having to lose all initiative for that ....and beign then like a dry fish on the silver platter for them to kill easily
• I'd make sure, that Thief gets ways to ignore (or at least weaken) the absurd health Degenerations of Warriors, so that they actually can deal damage to them and not get permanently all of their attacks outhealed instantly, what is ridiculous
• Then I'd change the Weapon List of the Core Thief, add as baseline Weapons there Staff, Offhand Sword and Rifle (due to Rifle gettign merged with Harpoon Guns to remove this obsolete Weapon Type, so that Deadeye becomes completely obsolete too)
• After that Id rework the Rifle Skilsl to simplyfy them so that they work without all this Kneel and Malice Garbage under the Core Thief with a Kneel mechanism, w that works automatically and doesn't require anymore manual button clicking
• I'd make 3 Dodges and the Dodge Styles of the Daredevil baseline for the Core Thief with the difference, that the Dodge Styles are now F-Skills from F3 to F5 and manually changeable anytime in Combat with little recharge times instead of them being linked to Grandmaster Traits
• Id merge alot of the Utility Skills after that and fill up the made gaps with new useful Skills that help better defining the role of as Thief and what a Thief in Combat should do, while providing in its own unique way some form of Group Support.
• I'd completely rework all of the Elite Skills and replace them with better more useful ones.
• After that I'd overlook every single Skill of the Thief, which can't be used under water right now, how to change it, to make it useable under water as well - if that is impossible, then the whiole skill gets deleted and replaced with a new skill, which is from ground up designed for it to work on land as like underwater, so that the Thief doesn't lose anymore over the half of all its skilsl the moment you touch water. This has been so absurd since release of the game and anet never fixed this...
• After having previously removed Daredevil and Deadeye, due to mostly absorbing them into Core Thief to give Thief back its original identity that Anet nerfed to death to give these E Specs a reason for existance, I'll give the Thief two really useful and thematic fitting E Specs - the Rogue, with giving them Longbows, so that they can choose between two long range weapons with the Rogue being the spec that focuses heavily on Boon Stealing, Trap Control, Disarming Foes and Mobility - and the Saboteur with the Torch, that gives Thief access to Burning, more Group Support through Manipulations, improved Self Defense through gettign more access to Protection and Stability and addign hard counters to Banners, Minions/Turrets/Gyros and the like by becoming able to take them over from your enemies to use them against them and which is a kind of Shadowmancer with specialized Shadow Steps as the Torch with its own source of light allows it them to create on demand shadows that they can use for their Shadow Spells to manipulate foes like a Shadowmancer/Puppet Master

Thats how i practically would redesign the whole Thief Package including its E Specs which are so out of touch with the game, that they need to be completely removed and merged into the Core Thief as good a possible, just to restore the original identity of the Thief to the point, that the Thief Class feels again likebeing truly a Thief in a competitive way so that you don't get anymore stomped into the ground the very moment you fight against one of the other totally overpowered powercreep specs like Mirage, Scourge or Spellbreaker.Thief is currently in absolutely no good spot, it feels so extremely left behind and not on an equal level with the other specs, that it is so obvious, that you just need to play the class for a while and do some fights against the other classes with Thief to clearly see how huge the gap between Thief and the rest is right now - and that is something, that only people who main thieves can truly realize, cause these people have several years of experience with playing this class and know about what they are talking.

When I see my high defensive thief still gettign one shotted by any total unexperienced Mirage/scourge players, cause all they have to do is faceroll over their keyeboard and the overpowered mechanics of these specs do everythign for them..then you absolutely know, how bad the state of game balance in this game is ...

I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

TL:DRStealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

@meepeY.2867 said:I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

TL:DRStealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

Ouch. I kind of agree with your reasoning but I'm really enjoying rifle and s/d stealth right now, even without Silent Scope. I'm sure I'm considerably less effective than other builds and surely slower but I have fun setting up a revealed burst timing cursed bullet with whatever. I like making a quick guess of when everything will land together based on how far I am and how I position to curve cursed bullet like I'm a ping pong champ. I might be the Forest Gump of thieves but it's a different approach and it does need work, but I wouldn't want it totally scrapped.

Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt? Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

Knives (all have 3 charges)Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

Bombs (all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

Venoms (all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

Shadowsteps (all have ground targeting and 1200 range)Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

Dual wield and weaponset revamp? Yes please. Redundancy sucks and some weaponsets have plenty of redundancy. I even have a few ideas for some of the weaponsets so depending on my mood I may throw the idea out into the forums at a later date. ;P

Daredevil partial redesign? Along with the toolbelt, yeah the knife throwing utilities would need to go and added as an option for the toolbelt. The dodges could also be turned into somewhat of a toolbelt slot with a selectable dodge. But other than that, the Daredevil was meant to be an evade-heavy elite spec that added onto what the core thief could do. For the extra slot skills:

KnivesImpairing Knives - Throw knives that inflict multiple conditions on a single target. (3 poison, slow, immobilize, 30s CD)

BombsFlashbang - Blind enemies and stealth (3s) yourself. Automatically goes off. (35s)

VenomsSkale Venom - Passive: Vuln (5s) and torment (2s) every 2nd hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks wear down your enemy. (Vuln 10s and Torment 6s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

ShadowstepsRiver Dragon Palm - Teleport to target area, dealing a blindingly fast and powerful strike in the process. Enemies hit are knocked back. Enemies who are in front of you are launched. (Knockback 200, 75s CD)

Deadeye redesign? Sure, but what you suggested is a bad idea. Thief is already "high risk, high reward" because this profession has no passive defense. Your fights must be decent against bad players or excellent against good players or you will get killed. Secondly, designing a spec around RNG is a horrible way to bring "personality" to it. RNG is practically useless in combat in GW2 except as a means to tack on a little extra damage. Unless the effects the gambles brought were overly powerful, the mechanic itself would be worthless.

Consider the RNG mechanics of Improvisation. Out of the pool of utilities, you have a chance of one utility type completely recharging upon using steal, every 20-30 seconds. The effects that the gamble produces would have to be that impactful or else nobody would use it because using it would only serve to min/max what you already have rather than give a clear advantage.

As for the rest of the mechanics, Mark is fine. In fact, mark is much better than regular steal as the skills work directly with the malice mechanic, go past the duration cap, can be used whenever and refreshes almost constantly. Instead of changing the kneel mechanic which is solely a weapon mechanic of the rifle, add exclusive malice bonuses to the other weapon skills. It would be much easier to do that than add ~30 newish skills for the kneeling mechanic which would not make much sense with melee weapons. Hell, I might even throw out ideas for malice bonuses for the other weapon skills at a later date too.

I'd start by getting rid of the initiative system so they can stop being so reserved with balancing the class properly.

I'd also get rid of every single stealth ability in the game.

Neither of those are going to happen; so, it's irrelevant to me what they do.

I present the Assassin from Cantha as the next elite specialisation. Inspired From Guild Wars 1 this will bring back weapon combos with a new mechanic for thieves called combos. Lead attacks, off-hand attacks and dual attacks will come with the new weapon set dual swords. Focused around knocking down the target with the lead attack leading into more powerful attacks with the off-hand like dealing extra damage when the enemy is knocked down and finally finishing off with a dual attack to deal more damage if all other combos have landed. Changes steal into a lead attack teleport which can be followed up with off-hand attacks and finally dual attacks. Utilities focus on weapon combos and conditions. These dual swords replace existing weapons as a stand-alone weapon set.

Dual swords:

1: (A) Autoattack begins with a lead attack called Leaping Mantis Sting (Range: 130). Hit target foe to cripple them.

(B) 2nd part of autoattack is an off-hand attack called Trampling Ox (Range: 130). If target foe is crippled knock them down (1 second).

© 3rd part of autoattack is a dual attack called Impale (Range: 130). If target foe is in down state stomp them (similiar to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Finishing_Blow).

2: Teleport to target foe (Range: 900). Temple Strike: Inflicts Daze for 3 seconds (Costs 4 initiative). This counts as an off-hand attack.

3: Dual attack Combo skill. Starburst Stream: 16 hits: Horizontal slash, Uppercut slash and full circle spin, horizontal slash continuing spin, horizontal slash with both swords, downward X-slash, upward X-slash, 2 opposite direction diagonal slashes, lift swords up and turn away reversing grip, reverse grip downward X-slash, Corkscrew attack and shift swords into forward grip, downward X-slash, upward X-slash, Diagonal slash and spin, horizontal slash, uppercut slash with both swords, downwards vertical slash, downward diagonal slash and spin, downward diagonal slash, forward thrust and forward lunge. (Costs 10 initiative; Open to balance by Arenanet.)

4: Shroud of Distress: You have 75% chance to block but no effect unless your health is below 50%. (Lasts 3 seconds and costs 5 initiative).

5: Flashing Blades: For 5 seconds while attacking you have a 75% chance to block. (Costs 8 initiative).

Heal: Dark Escape: Take 50% less damage as long as you're not attacking for 5 seconds and heal over time.

Utility skills:

Iron Palm: (Range:130) Causes knockdown (3 seconds) if target has a condition. This skill counts as a lead attack and off-hand attack. (20 second cooldown).

Shroud of Silence: For 5 seconds your critical hits remove boons. (50 second cooldown).

Moebius Strike: (Range: 130) Gives you 6 initiative back If you have just used a dual attack skill. This skill counts as a lead and off-hand attack. (30 second cooldown).

Way of the Master: For 10 seconds you cause a new type of condition called Deep Wound (This lowers the person's health by 20%) for 3 seconds with your attacks. (40 second cooldown).

Elite skill:

Shadow Form: For 5 seconds Hostile spells targeting you fail and attacks against you miss. (60 second cooldown).

Traits:

Adept:

Minor: Steal becomes Wastrel's collapse: Teleport skill (1200 range) If target is not using any skill then target is knocked down. This skill counts as a lead attack. (Same cooldown as Steal affected by Trickery traits). Access to Dual swords and combo skills. Lead attacks must be followed by off-hand and then dual attacks.

Critical Hits: For each autoattack chain you finish you gain 1 initiative.

Sword Mastery: There is a chance that your autoattacks will gain quickness.

Assassin's Promise: Your utility skills cooldown is reduced by 20%. (This does not affect Shadow Form).

Master:

Minor: Starburst Stream now has a 20% increased chance to critically hit.

Critical Defenses: You gain Dark Escape on being affected by any crowd control (60 second cooldown).

Aura of Displacement: Wastrel's collapse has a shorter cooldown by 20% which stacks with trickery traits.

Assassin's Remedy: Your next 10 attacks you use remove 1 condition (30 second cooldown).

Grandmaster:

Minor: Gain Flashing blades for 5 seconds when your health drops belows 50% health (40 second cooldown).

Way of the assassin: Shadow form can be shared to allies for 5 seconds. (60 second cooldown).

Critical Agility: Shroud of Distress now triggers when your health drops below 50% health (30 second cooldown).

Way of Perfection: You are healed for every critical hit and remove a condition.

lol ...

isnt it enough to have posted this already in an own thread ???...

It'd need to come with more than just changes to the thief, but I'd remove spammable stealth access game-wide. The best stealth accessor in the game in terms of raw uptime should be CnD given its initiative cost and relative risk/counterplay.

I'd rework all stealth skills to be based on both MH and OH weapons similar to dual skills. Something like nerfing baseline backstab by 33% but giving D/D a dual backstabs at 200% [changed] damage, OH pistol blinds or shadowsteps away on top of damage, etc.

Backstab ICD would get removed and replaced such that upon a failed attempt, it reverts back to the default AA upon missing for 2s.

Base dagger AA damage nerfed by 20%, various weapon skill coefficients, initiative costs, and damage traits substantially improved to compensate.

I'd then remove the passives from Acro, buff up a number of crap utilities like Ice Drake Venom, Caltrops, TG, DDaggers, Shadow Trap, and Scorpion Wire , rework signets (again) to be more consistent, remove endurance refilling from any utilities except CV, and bump FG to double Vigor's efficacy, Merge Hidden Killer into Twin Fangs, put a put an ICD on Impacting Disruption, remove might stacking and initiative refunding on Unload but give it a useful stealth attack for scaling into Unload, cut MH pistol damage down by 9%, and change Ankle Shots to Ricochet and give a 10% bonus to pistol damage.

Then I'd rework OH dagger to make it actually useful and D/D a good enough kit to stand on its own - rework DB to a lunge forward as faster evade, remove the bouncing from Dancing Dagger and just have it hit all nearby targets at double damage, rework the condition application component of D/D condi thief to use Dancing Dagger instead of DB, change Dagger Training to apply 2s poison on all attacks made with a dagger 100% rate on a 1s icd, and backstab deal 3 stacks of poison, and make Potent Poison make all such applications apply double stacks, and nerf Shadow Shot's damage by coefficient by 0.3.

Daredevil I'd only make Bound/Lotus apply damage if not stealthed, and remove exhaustion from UC, but make its condition cleanse components on an ICD instead.

I'd then delete Deadeye and replace it with my original proposal.

Just to start things off. There are a lot of necessary tweaks that'd need to be made to SA and probably some further tuning to other professions to compensate, but this is a baseline.

Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

@"meepeY.2867" said:I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

TL:DRStealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

Yeah, stealth has problems too. Maybe it should be turned into a boon, so it can be applied and removed easily? We could make revealed a condition as well, that nullifies the stealth boon. Right now stealth and revealed are way too "safe" from the rest of the game.

Another thing that could help is making invisible enemies still partially visible, so even if you can't target them directly anymore, you can know where they are, more or less, if you pay close attention, and then react when they come close, or try to attack them with cleave, AoE, or point blank skills. Multiple games do this with invisible enemies, where their invisible bodies distort the image around them a bit, letting you tell their position.

@"Zacchary.6183" said:Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt? Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

Knives (all have 3 charges)Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

Bombs (all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

Venoms (all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

Shadowsteps (all have ground targeting and 1200 range)Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

Yeah, that was the original idea. Instead of individual skills, you chose two belts with predetermined skills, and then you could swap between each of them. I switched to the standalone chain skills for the combo effect, but I might be back to this version if the new one doesn't convince me. The original idea was pretty much like yours, but with no cooldowns, using initiative instead (so you could spam the knives if you wanted). There were five belts, one for each trait line, and every new elite specialization got a new belt option as well. Right now I'm trying a new direction where elite specializations change the whole mechanic instead of adding new options, so I discarded that idea.

I think venoms as "party-wide enchantments" could work really well, but they need some serious improvements. Another option is to turn them into stances.

i would give it 1 skill called Hideinsta hide, for 12 seconds with 35seconds reuse.

and thats only stealth u get. obviously id fix backstab also to be without reuse again.

now when some1 going to pop in that im just a thief hater, no im not i play thief since the moment i got the game but the amount of stealth some people pull off in order to fight some one is just pathetic.i played all kinds of weap sets on thief but i never used stealth in a main way to kill some1 or to pussy out again.stealth needs to be redone in this game for all classes not just thief.

@Lonami.2987 said:Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

@"meepeY.2867" said:I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

TL:DRStealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

@"Zacchary.6183" said:

Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt?

Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

Knives

(all have 3 charges)Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

Bombs

(all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

Venoms

(all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

Shadowsteps

(all have ground targeting and 1200 range)Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

Yeah, I basically took your's and tried to improve it. My twist was to sort of standardize the skills while at the same time make them work with each other.

@reddie.5861 said:i would give it 1 skill called Hideinsta hide, for 12 seconds with 35seconds reuse.

and thats only stealth u get. obviously id fix backstab also to be without reuse again.

now when some1 going to pop in that im just a thief hater, no im not i play thief since the moment i got the game but the amount of stealth some people pull off in order to fight some one is just pathetic.i played all kinds of weap sets on thief but i never used stealth in a main way to kill some1 or to kitten out again.stealth needs to be redone in this game for all classes not just thief.

Stealth becoming part of the mechanic and getting removed from everywhere else is an idea I've seen in the past, but I don't know. I think the way to solve those problems is to give stealth more counters, not to nerf it.

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

@"meepeY.2867" said:I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

TL:DRStealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

@Zacchary.6183 said:

Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt?

Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

Knives

(all have 3 charges)Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

Bombs

(all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

Venoms

(all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

Shadowsteps

(all have ground targeting and 1200 range)Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

My problem with that idea is that I couldn't think about more than three belts (knives, bombs, shadowstep), and I would like to have at least 4-5.

Do you have any other ideas, by any chance?

@Lonami.2987 said:

• If you equip the same type of main-hand and off-hand weapon, you get 5 new skills.

I have suggested this long long long time ago. Don't hold your breath. If I have, I would have been dead long time ago.

@Lonami.2987 said:

@reddie.5861 said:i would give it 1 skill called Hideinsta hide, for 12 seconds with 35seconds reuse.

and thats only stealth u get. obviously id fix backstab also to be without reuse again.

now when some1 going to pop in that im just a thief hater, no im not i play thief since the moment i got the game but the amount of stealth some people pull off in order to fight some one is just pathetic.i played all kinds of weap sets on thief but i never used stealth in a main way to kill some1 or to kitten out again.stealth needs to be redone in this game for all classes not just thief.

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:Forgot to say it in the first post, but I would give core thief a few new weapons as well, since there's not much to choose from now. Sword OH, Axe MH+OH, and a 1200 ranged weapon (longbow, or crossbow if harpoon guns are adapted to land) would be fine.

@"meepeY.2867" said:I mained Thief around a year ago before switching to Warrior... One of the main reasons I swapped over was because it all felt a bit 'meh'. I only found S/D DD fun to play because D/P gameplay and its Stealth mechanics sucked.

I recently watched 2 Holosmiths dueling in WvW - Their builds had limited access to Stealth, 2 skills, both being Toolbelt skills (1 being RNG whether you get Smoke Screen). The general play style was that they were using Stealth to reposition, to safely pop their heals, to wait for cooldowns, set up bursts, ect. Their stealth had a serious purpose which impacted the duel. These skills had clean access, not where you would have to spam Heartseeker through Black Powder and not where you'd have to use a sub-par Utility skills giving up a good skill in its wake.The whole duel looked extremely fluid, not where they relied on blind spam to win the fight, but instead actually came down to skill-based-mechanics. I loved that they had to correctly use Stealth to get the maximum reward from your cooldown.

For me, this is how stealth should be for Thieves. Stealthing should be an option which flows into your gameplay and not something where you have to stand still and spam a clunky skill through a smoke field. It really irks me that Stealth gameplay for Thieves could've been so much more than what it is now.

If i could change Thief, I would make access to stealth more limiting but much more smoother and rewarding. The trait lines are all wonky and taking Shadow Arts isn't really an option anymore with most D/P running DD/Trickery/DA - - - with DD/Trickery being a must have...

TL:DRStealthing mid fight feels clunky, momentum breaking and intrusive which really sucks. It could be so much smoother and should be easily woven into a fight.

@Zacchary.6183 said:

Thief steal mechanic change to toolbelt?

Hell yes. As of now the "profession mechanic" is simply a fire-and-forget that has so many enhancements that it's ridiculous. It's terrible. A toolbelt would provide more utility. I am thinking have a separate slot for Knives, Bombs, Venoms and Shadowsteps and you can only have one "tool" for each slot. Venoms as a utility would have to go since the whole concept is bad save for Basilisk venom. The initial choices would be as followed:

Knives

(all have 3 charges)Quick Knives - Throw a knife. (5s CD)Ripper Knife - Throw a single knife that pierces in a line. (15s CD)Serrated Knives - Throw a fan of knives that inflict conditions on those it hits. (Bleeding, Poison, Cripple, 20s CD)Distracting Knives - Throw a knife that interrupts skills and increases their CD. (20s CD)

Bombs

(all have ground targeting, are blast finishers and require player input to explode)Concussion Mine - Throw a mine that deals damage and briefly stuns enemies. (Stun 2s, 10 Vulnerability, 20s CD)Pandora's Box - Throw a mine that creates a field, inflicting many conditions at once. (Chaos Field, All conditions randomly every half second, 25s CD)Minefield - Scatter small, weak mines across a wide area. (10 mines total, 3 targets per, 300 radius, 35s CD)Smokescreen - Throw a mine that creates a cloud of smoke to blind enemies destroy projectiles. (Smoke Field, 150 radius, 7s duration)

Venoms

(all have a passive that inflicts a weak effect after a number of hits have been landed)Spider Venom - Passive: Poison 3s every 3rd hit. Use to envenom your weapon to make attacks apply heavy poison. (Poison 10s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Devourer Venom - Passive: Immobilize 2s every 7th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks immobilize those you hit. (Immobilize 1s for 3 seconds. 35s CD)Skelk Venom- Passive: Heal (268) every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make attacks steal health. (Attacks heal (536) for 5 seconds. 35s CD)Ice Drake Venom - Passive: Chilled 1s every 5th hit. Use to envenom your weapon and make enemies freeze (Chilled 2s for 5 seconds. 35s CD)

Shadowsteps

(all have ground targeting and 1200 range)Quick Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. (600 range, 3 charges, 35s CD)Shadowstep - Teleport to target area. Turns into Shadow Return which breaks stun and cleanses conditions. (3 conditions cleansed, 35s CD)Parting Gift - Teleport to target area, leaving behind a bomb that explodes after a short delay. Bomb planted depends on the bomb you have equipped. (45s CD)Combat Medic - Stealth (1s) and teleport to an area to heal and revive allies. (10% revive, 1465 healing, 40s CD)

Besides turning the venoms and traps into toolbelt skills, no. Those two utility types really do not see much use because they're pretty niche. Especially venoms.

Give the thief a form of permanent stealth until discovered or the thief attacks. Yes, I know that'll be a very unpopular opinion among non-thieves, but stealth is what a thief is all about . . . in my humble opinion.

Make thief's weapon kit synergize much better with other skills than their current state. Honestly, we're fast, agile, and can spam abilities. But you'd think we can pull off some of the best combos to extreme effect... but we can't.

@Lonami.2987 said:Stealth becoming part of the mechanic and getting removed from everywhere else is an idea I've seen in the past, but I don't know. I think the way to solve those problems is to give stealth more counters, not to nerf it.

while stealthed i do not apply any significant damage to my opponent, the moment i do i get revealed. so stealth basically just gives an opportunity to attack. if i just go for 0-3 seconds into stealth infight most people dont complain, they got a problem if i stay longer in stealth, wich i do not really understand. most ways to go into stealth can be interrupted, any form of smoke + leap/blast and refuge to remain further in stealth can be either interrupted or even used to reveal the thief. so there is already alot of counterplay possible to stealthstacking but i rarely see anyone using it at least not against me. while i stay in stealth i give myself and the opponent a break to regain resources like CD, endurance etc. if they do not rely on long CD skills, then it shouldnt be an issue balancewise. it is only an issue of annoyance as i can deny a certain kill with stealth, like yesterday i stomped an ele in an enemy tower in WvW and right after it like 30+ of his mates came around the corner, i was able to deny them killing me with stealth but i didnt kill anyone while in stealth.thief has basically 3 ways to fight: stealthy, hit and run with lots of mobility and evade spamm because a thief will lose trading hits with most classes. out of those 3 i prefer fighting as and against stealthy ones as they are the least annoying to me, i can kill most of them while they are in stealth, can only kill evadespammers during evade with surging rune for shockaura and the hit and run guys i am basically forced to hope they fail at running away or be as fast as them.in my opinion there is most counterplay to the stealthy thieves possible, most people i encounter are just unable to handle a stealthed thief. for instance while i hide alot in enemy keeps and towers in WvW to flip em later or kill some scouts, i see alot of minstreal guards spamming 1 of their staff how is that supposed to kill me? even when like 50 people in there, very few people use reveal abilities, noone steps into my black powder field hoping to reveal me (ok some ranger pets do that , they are clever) instead they set up 10 anti stealth traps while they dont know where i am so i see the position of those and can avoid them or trigger them and use shadow meld. if you are too slow to jump into my black powder field or drop range cc into it and got no reveal skills at hand, then try to bait me. if there is no objective around, there is no reason to worry about a living thief, if i am inside a tower/keep/camp then give me a nice target, either a player that looks like i can gank him (like some staff weaver / mesmer, they are most on berserks in WvW so i can onehit em with backstab) or the tower/keep lord and when i get out of stealth to engage my bait, gank me. there is no reason why i would go out of stealth if there are more then 2 opponents ahead, unless i think they are terribly bad - still most people when i engage a fight like 1 vs 5 stack together and spamm skills, why on earth would i attack that to reveal myself? even if i oneshot one of them, they could rez fasten then i could finish it. stealth only makes the thief annoying not strong, reduce his annoyance by not paying attention or pretending to not pay attention and he will come out. people tryharding to FORCE a thief out of stealth is what makes it 'strong' because you can bind alot of people to waste their time for you, while you not pose a threat to anyone.

TLDR: stealth is not strong by itself, people being unable to handle it makes it strong and there is already more counterplay to stealth then to evadespamm or hit and run.

I would not change the design of the thief much at all. It still the class I enjoy playing the most given its ACTIVE gameplay and how this works with the INI system wherein I feel more "in control" of my choices then i do when on those other professions. Some skills need tweaking. Some need to better integrate on a given weaponset, but it still fun to play.

I would delete thief's daredevil power spec from the game completely. I mean it's already half-way there, why not finish it off completely.I would also like to change how most qqers view thief so that they could understand that it's not as easy to play as smashing your face into the keyboard like it is with scourge and warrior.

In all seriousness though. I would remove this idiotic -100% endurance gain when you dodge. And I'd give thief more condi clear.

PvE-->Redesign Daredevil: Instead of a staff, you get to carry a greatsword. Its abilities come close to the old zerker warrior.You only get to dodge twice, not three times like before. Greatsword damage is increased by 5%.Skill 1) [Assassins Strike]-->[second Turn]-->[shadows Smile] 3 abilities auto-chain with the last ability being a guaranteed crit. No cost.Skill 2) [Piercing Blades]: AoE Hundred blades like ability which looks like the

This is thought of as pure DPS, thats why there are no conditions or cc abilities.

-->Redesign the steal-mechanic:a) You get stealth-ported BEHIND the enemy (could be based off a certain trait).b) You steal a UNIQUE ability which belongs to the enemy NPC and have access to it for a certain amount of time. During that time, the enemy NPC cant use said ability until you've used it.-->Add the following to the stealth-mechanic:Being invisible regenerates endurance much quicker.

The first thing I would do is to rebalance venoms to be less dependant on having a group and have less burst effect. In that vein, I'd swap the venom support trait (leeching venoms) from shadow arts with trap support from deadly arts (deadly trapper]

Then i'd change venoms themselves to have a passive application on an ICD and the active still spread to teammates but lower effect. Unlike signets, activating the skill will not disable the passive part while it is on CD. This would give venom thief stronger duel potential with consistent condi pressure and make better use of their mobile/stealth hit and run tactics. And ideally with the CD reduction trait becoming essentially baseline for PVE builds, this should keep Condi thief's group pve damage roughly the same while giving it a bit more healing and damage when it can't venomshare.

Spider Venom: currently 30 (6x5) stacks of 6s poison on 30s CD. Change to 3 hits of 6s poison on activation, and passive on-hit of applying 3 poison stacks with a 6 second duration on a 10 second ICD. New total of 24 poison stacks every 30 seconds, with 12 being applied by the thief.

Skale Venom: currently 20 (4x5) stacks of 10s vuln and 5s torment on 30s CD. Change to 2 hits of 10s vuln and 5s torment on activation. And new passive of 5 stacks 5s vuln and 2 stacks of 5s torment on 10 second ICD. New total of 16 stacks torment every 30 seconds with 8 applied by the thief, and equivalent of 17.5 stacks 10s vuln, but shorter duration with higher concentration on the passive proc.

Ice Drake Venom: currently 20 (4x5) stacks of 1s chill on 36 second CD. Change to 2 hits of 1s chill on activation, and passive of 2s chill on 10 second ICD. New total of ~21 seconds of chill every 36 seconds, with ~13 coming from the thief.

Devourer Venom: currently 10 stacks (2x5) of 1s immobilize on 40 second CD. Keep active the same, add a passive 2s weakness on 10 second ICD.

Skelk Venom (heal) keep the same for obvious reasons.

Basilisk Venom make one attack unblockable on 20 second ICD, in addition to its current active (considering this used to give 2 attacks on activation that both stunned and were unlockable, I don't see this as being overly OP. Because to get two unblockable attacks in a row with this change you'd have to attack once, then take 1s to activate basi venom which the opponent can now react to since you've announced your presence, then the 2nd attack).

Venoms aside, the other change I think thief needs is to make alacrity also increase initiative (our equivalent of weapon skill CDs) recharge by 33%. Power thief builds definitely need the helping hand (my estimates and best testing put this at being worth about 5-7% more dps for staff daredevil with full buffs), and if it proves to much of an increase for condi PVE builds which are already performing well then Death Blossom's bleed could be toned down just a bit.