How would you redesign the engineer? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How would you redesign the engineer?

Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 7, 2018 in Engineer

Do you feel like the engineer could be much more? That his mechanics don't do his theme justice? Maybe his elite specializations have a weak design? Or do you just want to post some crazy ideas? Well, then this thread is for you.

So, just for fun, how would you redesign the engineer?

Last update here: June 5, 2018

Few personal ideas to start the thread:


Engineer - Replace the Tool Belt with Kits

I don't like the Tool Belt. I think it's a bad mechanic, for both the developers and the players. Developers, because they have to design and balance 5 additional skills, that are boring most of the time, and players because those skills aren't customizable enough.

In the other hand, I love kits, but I don't like sacrificing slot skills to equip them. I'm also a bit sad that weapon swap had to be sacrificed in exchange of them. Kits also have multiple balance problems, and I wish they were more restrictive so they could be more powerful and useful.

So, my solution is simple: Remove the tool belt altogether, remove kits from slot skills, and let us equip two kits in the mechanic bar, in slots F1 and F2. Then add weapon swap too.

These changes would have huge repercussions in the rest of the profession, since we would need new slot skills and some of the tool belt skills were really important for things like turret management, but don't worry, I'll cover that later. For now, let's focus on the kits.

Now that kits are the main profession mechanic for engineer, well, let's give them a well-deserved upgrade. These are the five final kits I would go with:

  • Flamethrower: Same as the original.
  • Elixir Gun: Same as the original.
  • Repair Kit: Based on the Tool Kit. A wrench and a welder, designed for turret management. While wielding this kit, turret slot skills unlock the self-destroy option, originally available through the tool belt only.
  • Energy Cannon: Based on the Mortar Kit, and inspired by Horrik and the Aetherblades. Slow, but AoE and long range.
  • Machine Gun: Yeah, you're reading that right. A heavy barrel machine-gun, TF2 style, for some additional ranged firepower. You would be slowed down while firing.

The rest of the kits would disappear, or be repurposed for other things, like slot skills. Let's talk about those, since we need two new sets to replace kits. These would be my choice:

  • Grenade: Based on the Grenade Kit, they would use the new ammunition system, and work like mantras, so you load a grenade type, and then you can throw a few of them, without replacing your weapon skills.
  • Mine: Based on the Throw Mine skill and the Bomb Kit, they would work like traps.

We need a few changes for the other slot skills too. Turrets are fine with the Repair Kit synergy, but elixirs and gadgets could use an upgrade. Elixirs could become a chain skill, unlocking the belt-only throw option after you drink them. Gadgets could be turned into signets, to make them more interesting. Rocket Boots could give a speed boost while not on cooldown, for example.

Now all we need are a few new core weapons to give weapon swap some spice. Main-hand scepter and mace should do it. Maybe redesign rifle too, and turn it into a shotgun or a long-range rifle, instead of whatever junk it is supposed to be now.

This engineer would be perfect in my book, less bloated, easier to balance, and with a more focused purpose. Now it has a lot of free space in the mechanic bar too, giving elite specializations more freedom to put new mechanics there.


Engineer - Kit skins

Partially dependent on the above idea, kits would get its own new panel, similar to the Pet Management panel from the ranger. There, you would be able to customize each kit with different variations, mostly affecting the skin and the base stats of each kit, pretty much like a ranger choosing a pet.

This would let you use different flamethrower skins, like the ones used by the Flame Legion, or Sabetha's Scorcher from the raid. This panel would let you choose whether to hide or show backpacks connected to kits too.

Additionally, turrets could get aesthetic variations as well, selected from this panel. Inquest turrets, Rata Novus turrets, Forged turrets, and more, already ingame, could be adapted to take customization of engineers and their mechanics a level further.


Scrapper - Gyros in the mechanic bar

The scrapper doesn't really feel like it has a new mechanic. Yeah, the function gyro, but that's pretty dull. The slot skill gyros have a lot of control and AI problems as well.

These problems can be solved through the mechanic bar, either by removing the tool belt, or by replacing it with an alternative (like the kit idea above).

So, how would it work? First of all, gyros wouldn't be neither a pet, nor a swarm of pets. They would stick next to the engineer, almost like a passive device, and only react to direct orders. You would have a maximum of six at a time, and they would respawn on their own or through various skills.

I'm calling this group the Gyro Squad. Using the mechanic bar, instead of the classic pet controls, you would have various formation options. The gyros could fly in circles around you, blocking enemy projectiles, form a frontal barrier, or harass an enemy. Almost like in those good old Shoot 'em up arcade games.

Gyro slot skills would now become command orders for the gyro squad, fast respawn options, or squad-wide skills, their effectiveness increased the more active gyros you have. The function gyro would become a slot skill.

You would have various squads to choose from, just like rangers have different pets to choose from. Every squad would have an unique skin (using the ones we already have for each gyro), different attacks, and different formation options. Few examples:

  • Assault Squad: Close-range machine gun attacks, harass formations.
  • Artillery Squad: Long-range missile attacks, block and line formations.
  • Bulwark Squad: Support skills, defensive formations.
  • Bomber Squad: Melee AoE fire bomb attacks, aggressive formations.

This would rescue scrapper from irrelevancy, giving him an unique playstyle, where you'd be commanding your own small fleet of miniature aircrafts.


Holosmith - Partial redesign

The holosmith doesn't have many problems, but if we follow the changes above, there's a few things we could do with him.

Let's start by forgetting about kits and the tool belt altogether. The holosmith gets a blank slate mechanic-wise. It's good to have elite specializations that dismiss their original mechanics altogether.

Photon Forge is a really cool mechanic, but it feels like it's too restrictive, since it's the same five skills all the time. Also, Heat is only useful with a set of limited skills, the sword, the exceed slot skills, and the photon forget itself.

So, what if we take Photon Forge further, and turn it into something like the elementalist attunements?

This would mean that the Photon Forge weapon skills would vary between the active weapon, two sets if we include weapon swap. We could now remove the heat bonus from sword, and keep it exclusive for Photon Forge mode sword, for normalization purposes.

Every weapon skill would have its Photon Forge counterpart, with holographic weapons that don't necessarily require to be the same as the originals. For example, main-hand pistol 3rd skill could have you summon two pistols and fire at the enemy, even if you don't have a pistol in the off-hand, kinda like Photon Blitz already does.

Heat can be made more useful by applying a passive bonus when you're out of Photon Forge, for more direct damage or condition damage. Maybe give engineer attacks a fire effect when their heat level is high.

Exceed skills have some interesting options in the tool belt, that don't belong anywhere now. Since we have an empty mechanic bar now, redesign them a bit and just put them there, independently from the selected slot skills, so we always have some heat-related skills no matter what.

These changes would make holosmith a really dynamic elite specialization, with a lot of options to choose from, and better synergies with heat.


Just some random ideas to begin the thread. Waiting for yours! =)

Profession Redesign series:
Elementalist - Mesmer - Necromancer - Engineer - Ranger - Thief - Guardian - Revenant - Warrior

Comments

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    To summarize what I think:

    • I don't think base engi needs anything you put here, at all, It's trying too hard to re-invent the wheel. Kits are a very unique concept, in fact I think I haven't seen them in any other game and would like them to be kept as they are.
    • I do agree Scrapper has identity issues but your way to tackle those issues is just too convoluted to be a realistic solution.
    • Holosmith needs some very minor tweaking imho, cutting down the kit lockdown or having a trait that does it for starters if the devs wish to ever see a condi variant. Heat interaction with other weapons is also something frequently asked that would not need any tampering with the core aspect of the elite spec.

    It's just for fun, don't take it too seriously. This isn't any sort of demand for ArenaNet or whatever, just some design discussion.

    About holosmith, my idea above would solve the heat problem, since it would be available with all weapons as long as you have photon forge active.

    @Forestnator.6298 said:
    Imo all Kits should work as Photon Forge.

    In what way? You mean the heat mechanic? It would surely help with same of the balance problems, but I don't know, kit availability is part of the engineer's personality. I think it would be fine for engineer to have both weapon swap and two buffed kits, giving us 20 weapon skills, as long as the other professions get some redesigns of their own to compensate as well.

    I've seen other ideas in the past, using something similar to heat before holosmith applied it on his own way, and also ammunition systems with reload, but they feel way too complicated when weapon skill cooldowns can already sort out those problems on their own.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Undo.5091 said:
    I would just give the class a portal gun that can be used to teleport both allies and enemies alike. That is all.

    Make it happen.

    Gravity gun. Yes. Launch enemies over walls. Mwahaha.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Nikal.4921Nikal.4921 Member ✭✭✭

    At this point, I just want weapon swap.

  • @Forestnator.6298 said:
    Imo all Kits should work as Photon Forge.

    the problem with this idea/trope/thesis/theme is that if it was to happen, engi would be functionally the same as an ele, different only in flavor and minor semantics.

    so if you want all kits to works like forge, seriously, forget about the techy/steampunk theme and just go play a kitten ele. youll be happier.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    Was going to post this in the thread about single weapons being dull but the concept got away from me there so I'm leaving it here- it's not a complete overhal but it's the beginnings of something- so here goes-

    The trouble with single weapons is that they're left bland even with traits. Kit's have something to do with that as they tend to steal base weapon's thunder. THis isn't much fun if you've ground out and saved for a legendary weapon. Kits as we know them they seem a bad fit. There's even controversy over what a kit is and as mentioned in other threads whether Photon Forge should be considered one for the purposes of the backpack regenerator. I don't agree with that, but then I don;t see this getting better with every new elite, and every new weapon added making a further hot mess of balance in future.

    Rather than kits, rather than weapon swaps, I'd see an engineer altering his base weapons first to fit the circumstances. I mentioned it elsewhere but kits, IMO, should be changed to modes and these should be added to a third bar above either the tool belt skills or the right hand bar. When selected their aspects should be applied to the respective base weapons you use which are modified by an aura/colour change similar to the bracelet effects around the hands of elementalists. Say at the mouth of the barrel, colour of the blade, or face of the hammer head. Or in addition to that some greebles which affect the look, a blinking light, some antenae or other bits added on to the mesh(similar to how kits used to change the look of our old hobo sack..

    Make backpack regenerator function so long as your weapon is using a 'mode'- make everything that's layered over the top of a base weapon(ie replaces or alters the first five buttons on your hot bar) a 'mode.' - including Photon Forge. Make this standard going forward for all new elites. A mode with every elite- perhaps a mode organic to each trait line.

    Again: Modes apply aspects of the old/new kits to base weapons.

    For base rifle you'd have: Flamethrower mode, Acid mode(retune elixir gun with a similar auto attack to flamethrower which applies heavy bleeds), Medicator mode for med kit with the ability to keep healing turret usable as healing turret - nerfed as it is is still more valuable. Explosive mode which replaces each effect from base rifle one-five with explosive effects which benefit from explosive traits.

    Every mode in rifle would benefit from Skilled marksman for example. Every weapon using flamethrower/Fire mode(and possibly Medkicator) would benefit from juggernaut.

    With this change there's tremendous possibilities for any weapon we currently have, whether Rifle, pistol, sword, hammer, and yes, even shield. to become more flexible while still allowing us to show them off.

    Part of my reasoning here also is that we need our right hand bar back. We need the flexibility to use gadgets or turrets or elixirs as we wish without having their functionality shoved aside by excessive numbers of kits on a bar. where we'd rather be able to use kit/mode abilities on the fly but still have rocket boots or an elixir or a belt battering ram in reserve.

    Imagine if turrets were set back to their old functionality with an overcharge uses at our discretion. Imagine if any base weapon you had equipped could be altered by a 'Fixit''(Tool kit) mode where your auto attack or auto chain could do respectable damage and heal your turrets. Imagine if gyros were altered slightly to be a bit more robust and to last a bit longer and hammer auto attacks could repair them?

    A second line of reasoning for me against simply being given weapon swap is that elementalist doesn't get swap they get attunements. On top of this in many ways weaver's ability to mix those attunements gives them new abilities similar to thief main hand off hand combos. Some of which are even more potent than keeping to a single attunement. We need that sort of magic. I see nothing wrong with keeping weapon swap out of combat as with elementalists for those gaining new weapons with elites.

    Back to modes. What if respective traitlines gave us access to new modes? Say if inventions changed fire/flamethrower mode mode to Lightning mode? An auto attack chain for rifles which does good damage and whether it be the last pulse of a lightning stream or the third striikein an auto chain applying weakness/cripple? What if elixirs changed the acid(elixir gun mode) altered base weapons to not only to apply acid/bleed damage but if the aoe abilities allowed engineers, instead of changing conditions to boons, to be able to boon strip opponents?

    This is the sort of off the wall, mad scientist tech I'd hoped for with engineers.

    Lastly as per mortar kit.

    Mortar kit would go from being a kit to a unique elite ability - a hybrid turret with a standard auto attack but manable by the engineer or another player. Remove the horribly restricted camera. It would have a duration for deployment or the average turret but the cooldown would be based on the length of the deployment and the mortar could be picked up again by the engineer as needed and immediately deployed again with its reduced duration still in effect- consider this a modification of the new ammunition/charge system for abilities that's been added to the game recently. In addition have the mortar damageable by enemies and healable by 'Fixit' mode and given the ability to slightly damage walls in addition to doors in WvW.

    Could this be abused? Perhaps. But no more so than a fifty plus person blob on a tier one server meleeing(irrespective of class) down a low tier keep/tower door in short order.

    Well. That's it. That's all. thanks for reading.

  • @Orpheal.8263 said:
    How would I redesign the Engineer.. hmm ,lets begin.

    1) Completely erase the first two Elite Specializations and replace them with the following two Specs I. the Technomancer (Staff) and II. the Alchemist (Axes)
    2) Erase Alchemy from Core Engineer and replace the Traitline instead with Technology as Alchemy becomes part now of the E-Spec and reworked due to this
    3) The Engineer has now as Core Class following Weapons baseline: Hammer, Mace, Shield, Pistols, Rifle, Warhorn, Torch
    4) I'd also replace Toolbelt with Kits in this case and replace Kits as Utility Skill with Mechs (Gyros) and in case of Elixiers, which are now Alchemist exclusive, the Core Engineer uses instead of Elixiers a new Utility Skill Type called Holograms in which way basically partially the earlier E-Specs get kind of merged into Core Engineer halfway.
    5) I'd turn Turrets into a Kit Mechanic and replace the Turret Utility Skill Type with the new "Prototypes" Utility Skill, which are experimental inventions like the Flamethrower, a Missile Launcher, an Acid Gun and a Photon Sword for example.

    Following Kits would the Class and the two Specs provide

    Engineer:

    F1 = Grenade Kit
    F2 = Bomb Kit
    F3 = Turret Kit
    F4 = Sabotage Kit

    Technomancer:

    F1 = Lightning Kit
    F2 = Gravity Kit
    F3 = Steam Kit
    F4 = Signet Kit

    Alchemist:

    F1 = Medicine Kit
    F2 = Homunculus Kit
    F3 = Acid Kit
    F4 = Elixir Kit

    6) Hammer Skills for baseline Core Engineer would be take over in a rebalanced way from Scrapper
    7) Following Skilsl would provide the new added Weapons to the Core Engineer:

    Torch:
    - Ignition: Throw Dynamite at your ground target, after having ignited it with your Torch, after a short delay it will explode and causes to all nearby targets damage, Vulnerability and Burning. The place where the Dynemite has exploded, will leave for a while after it a Fire Field which can be used for Combo Finishers.
    - Liquid Flame: You will cause for a while as youe move a path of fire after you, which will burn for a few seconds long, which causes damage over time when standing in that path for enemies. Liquid Flame has a special ability, that Burn you suffer onr, while standing in it, can't be removed and when you are Burning and crossed a path of Liquid Flame, then will Burn spread over to any nearby foes that get in touch with you. Liquif Flame in itself doesn't cause Burning.

    Warhorn:
    - Sonic Boom: Send out a Shockwave of Sound at your enemies, which will hurt all foes in line of sight on long range with such speed, that this attack is unblockable. it will ignore even Boons and remove up to two of them, if the enemies had some on them. Sonic Boom removes also traps if there where any between you and your target foe when used.
    - Sound of Silence: create a large AoE field, which will nullify any usage of Shout Skills and causes a new Condition, that is called Deafness. Someone, who suffers from Deafness can't be affected by Shouts and their Boons will expire faster than normal. The Sound is so load, that it causes also damage to your ears, as part of that you won#t suffer only from Deafness, but your ears will begin to Bleed also as result of this skill beign used agaisnt you.

    Mace
    - Smash > Crush > Powerful Strike: The Auto Attack String of the Mace, in which Smash does just damage, but has a little damage bonus for every Stack of Vulnerability the foe suffers on from, Crush deals damage and causes Vunerability and Powerful Strike finishes the combo and grants you Might, when you hit critically plus an additional Stack of Might that you can receive, if the hit foe had more than 5 Stacks of Vulnerability. With the AA string you can upkeep basically 3 Stacks of Vulnerability.
    - Macerang: Throw your Mace like a Tomahawk as on hit it will return like a Boomerang back to you. This skill can due to this püotentialy hit multiple foes eventually twice, once on the way to them,, and once on return to you if used with good positioning.
    - Strike of the Maker: A mighty strike of the Mace that is said to be mastered only by real smiths and enginners that put their heartblood into something they create.
    Strike of the Maker deals not only damage to foes and causes them to get launched away from you, but when used against one of your Turrets, then this will repair them back to full health.

    8) After having made the previous 7 Changes, then I would look into rebalancing and adapting the Core Engineer Skills and Traits based on the previous 7 Changes to see, where thigns must get changed on the Core Elements of the Engineer, so that the result will work in harmony based on the made changes and in balance with the other Classes and their Specs. In this last point would be looked into also the Utility Skilsl of the erased previous two Elite Specs, where and how they can be partially be merged into either one of the two new Specs that replaced them or as part of the rebalanced and adapted Skills and Traits of the Engineer itself.

    This would be basically my personal 8-step plan to redesign the Engineer as of right now.

    This sounds like a great idea. I love the time and thought you put into it. However, I can't help but notice the similarities with the Elementalist mechanic. Instead of Attunements it's Kits. You switch around the Kits as if it you switch around the Elemental Attunements. Now there is nothing wrong with using a similar mechanic but if the devs want to make Engineer unique they wouldn't probably go this route. Though I would definitely play something like this on Engineer. Would be fun! But oh well.... the chances of Engineer being worked on or revamped or ANYTHING is close to ziltch at this point. The toolbet is here to stay and unless they do a drastic overhaul of Engineer like they did on Mesmer I don't see this happening.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    Its not the same as Attunements... I just changed only the Kits as a Utility Skill into a Feature Skill, where the mechanics of switching out your whole Weapon Skill Sets makes for the Engineer much more sense, than to waste utility Skill Slots on that. On the F-Slots it would feel much better and more natural to the gameplay design of this class, instead of the Toolbelt, which provides with its design only reactively based on your chosen Utility SKills some additional Skills that are more or less useful for you.

    removing the Toolbelt and turning Kits into the Main Feature would definetely make the uniqueness of the Engineer Class much stronger.
    The difference between an Elementalist and an Engineer with its Kits is...
    When you change with an Elementalist itsa Attunements, you still play with your Weapon, your Skills are bonded still to your chosen Weapon which decides over it, how your elemental skilsl will play out, if ranged, or melee ect.

    With Kits, while feeling similar to Attunements, each Kit has no bond to one specific chosen Weapon you used before activiatign your Kit. When you activate any kit,m you won't fight any longer with just your normal Weapon anymore. Your Weapon gets completely replaced with something else.

    If you activate as Technomancer the Lightning Kit, you won't hold in your hands then anymore your Staff, no - you hold in your hands then maybe a Lightning Canno which shoots alchemagical infused Lighning Bullets super fast like kind of a Railgun, that you can switch into an other mode to shoot instead slower bigger Ball Lightnings for more AoE Damage.
    Do you switch now to the Gravity Kit you won't have then that Lightning Cannon in your hands anymore. It will change over into a Fokus, that allows you to control Gravity with it to push and pull your foes around, send them flying basically like using Psychokinesis, but just only with the power of gravity, which you control with that device in your hands, instead of your willpower. ANet shows with the current episode, how much fun magnetism can be ;) think how much fun the power over gravity really can be, if theen used in combat ^^
    Switch over to the Steam Kit, and you have nowmybe a Warhorn or kind of Shield in your hands and with the Signet Kit you just eventually simply stay at your Staff.

    What i want to say with all this is only, the possibilities are endles,s this concept offers definetely more potential for being a greater Engineer Class in the end, than what we have right now, where kits are in their usage very limited as Utility Skills and for Class Design and Balance Reasons it would make also sense to sülit up the potential of the kits among the class and its E-Specs, so that each of them would have its very own 4 unique kits - an amount of kits, that would be unter the utility Skill design of anet also impossible to have with this class so many unique different kits as part of the class, to increase this way also the build diversity of the engineer class.


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2018

    @Xruptor.3965 said:

    @Orpheal.8263 said:
    How would I redesign the Engineer.. hmm ,lets begin.

    1) Completely erase the first two Elite Specializations and replace them with the following two Specs I. the Technomancer (Staff) and II. the Alchemist (Axes)
    2) Erase Alchemy from Core Engineer and replace the Traitline instead with Technology as Alchemy becomes part now of the E-Spec and reworked due to this
    3) The Engineer has now as Core Class following Weapons baseline: Hammer, Mace, Shield, Pistols, Rifle, Warhorn, Torch
    4) I'd also replace Toolbelt with Kits in this case and replace Kits as Utility Skill with Mechs (Gyros) and in case of Elixiers, which are now Alchemist exclusive, the Core Engineer uses instead of Elixiers a new Utility Skill Type called Holograms in which way basically partially the earlier E-Specs get kind of merged into Core Engineer halfway.
    5) I'd turn Turrets into a Kit Mechanic and replace the Turret Utility Skill Type with the new "Prototypes" Utility Skill, which are experimental inventions like the Flamethrower, a Missile Launcher, an Acid Gun and a Photon Sword for example.

    Following Kits would the Class and the two Specs provide

    Engineer:

    F1 = Grenade Kit
    F2 = Bomb Kit
    F3 = Turret Kit
    F4 = Sabotage Kit

    Technomancer:

    F1 = Lightning Kit
    F2 = Gravity Kit
    F3 = Steam Kit
    F4 = Signet Kit

    Alchemist:

    F1 = Medicine Kit
    F2 = Homunculus Kit
    F3 = Acid Kit
    F4 = Elixir Kit

    6) Hammer Skills for baseline Core Engineer would be take over in a rebalanced way from Scrapper
    7) Following Skilsl would provide the new added Weapons to the Core Engineer:

    Torch:
    - Ignition: Throw Dynamite at your ground target, after having ignited it with your Torch, after a short delay it will explode and causes to all nearby targets damage, Vulnerability and Burning. The place where the Dynemite has exploded, will leave for a while after it a Fire Field which can be used for Combo Finishers.
    - Liquid Flame: You will cause for a while as youe move a path of fire after you, which will burn for a few seconds long, which causes damage over time when standing in that path for enemies. Liquid Flame has a special ability, that Burn you suffer onr, while standing in it, can't be removed and when you are Burning and crossed a path of Liquid Flame, then will Burn spread over to any nearby foes that get in touch with you. Liquif Flame in itself doesn't cause Burning.

    Warhorn:
    - Sonic Boom: Send out a Shockwave of Sound at your enemies, which will hurt all foes in line of sight on long range with such speed, that this attack is unblockable. it will ignore even Boons and remove up to two of them, if the enemies had some on them. Sonic Boom removes also traps if there where any between you and your target foe when used.
    - Sound of Silence: create a large AoE field, which will nullify any usage of Shout Skills and causes a new Condition, that is called Deafness. Someone, who suffers from Deafness can't be affected by Shouts and their Boons will expire faster than normal. The Sound is so load, that it causes also damage to your ears, as part of that you won#t suffer only from Deafness, but your ears will begin to Bleed also as result of this skill beign used agaisnt you.

    Mace
    - Smash > Crush > Powerful Strike: The Auto Attack String of the Mace, in which Smash does just damage, but has a little damage bonus for every Stack of Vulnerability the foe suffers on from, Crush deals damage and causes Vunerability and Powerful Strike finishes the combo and grants you Might, when you hit critically plus an additional Stack of Might that you can receive, if the hit foe had more than 5 Stacks of Vulnerability. With the AA string you can upkeep basically 3 Stacks of Vulnerability.
    - Macerang: Throw your Mace like a Tomahawk as on hit it will return like a Boomerang back to you. This skill can due to this püotentialy hit multiple foes eventually twice, once on the way to them,, and once on return to you if used with good positioning.
    - Strike of the Maker: A mighty strike of the Mace that is said to be mastered only by real smiths and enginners that put their heartblood into something they create.
    Strike of the Maker deals not only damage to foes and causes them to get launched away from you, but when used against one of your Turrets, then this will repair them back to full health.

    8) After having made the previous 7 Changes, then I would look into rebalancing and adapting the Core Engineer Skills and Traits based on the previous 7 Changes to see, where thigns must get changed on the Core Elements of the Engineer, so that the result will work in harmony based on the made changes and in balance with the other Classes and their Specs. In this last point would be looked into also the Utility Skilsl of the erased previous two Elite Specs, where and how they can be partially be merged into either one of the two new Specs that replaced them or as part of the rebalanced and adapted Skills and Traits of the Engineer itself.

    This would be basically my personal 8-step plan to redesign the Engineer as of right now.

    This sounds like a great idea. I love the time and thought you put into it. However, I can't help but notice the similarities with the Elementalist mechanic. Instead of Attunements it's Kits. You switch around the Kits as if it you switch around the Elemental Attunements. Now there is nothing wrong with using a similar mechanic but if the devs want to make Engineer unique they wouldn't probably go this route. Though I would definitely play something like this on Engineer. Would be fun! But oh well.... the chances of Engineer being worked on or revamped or ANYTHING is close to ziltch at this point. The toolbet is here to stay and unless they do a drastic overhaul of Engineer like they did on Mesmer I don't see this happening.

    Kits don't transform your weapon skills, they replace the whole weapon.
    Kits doesn't have a cooldown.
    The only similarity with Attunements is to have the Kits on the f-keys. And it is just logical, IMO. Having Kits as utilities is one of the big reasons Engie doesn't work correctly in the first place.
    However, that's the only change I can agree with the OP. All the rest seems excessive and extremely gratuitous...

  • Arimas.3492Arimas.3492 Member ✭✭✭

    As much as I like Engi redesign posts like this since they're usually well thought out and cool sounding, it also makes me sad since the future of engi seems to be in the trash. So many skills need their effectiveness brought up or to be reworked it's ridiculous.

    Kits being a mechanic would be cool and also probably end up being better as the mechanic for balance purposes but won't ever happen. Turrets need a complete rework or replacement. Only 2 gadgets are actually useful currently, RB and AED. Elixirs need lower CDs as a whole and the infamous Med Kit needs reworked to be something good so Engi can have a good support build. Rifle needs buffs, shield needs lower CDs on and on.

  • michelada.2947michelada.2947 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2018

    just rework all the kits to be really good and we are done ( oh and rework some traits that make no sense at all )

  • Well firstly i want turrets to be useful and for rifle skills to be remade into shotgun-like abilities

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As much as some of these ideas would be awesome. We all know. Nothing will be done. It would be madness for them to remove 2 specs and replace them with totally different specs. Wont happen and would be unfair on all other classes as many have crappy specs (Reaper, Weaver, Renegade to name but a few) adjusting kits and such would likely be ALL that would be possible, still wont happen though. Too much work. Too little pay off (money...)

  • Xruptor.3965Xruptor.3965 Member ✭✭
    edited March 17, 2018

    @Forty Keks.9620 said:
    Well firstly i want turrets to be useful and for rifle skills to be remade into shotgun-like abilities

    Agreed, I just want them to fix turrets :( I miss turrets on my Engineer. Right now they just feel like wasted space.

  • @Xruptor.3965 said:

    @Forty Keks.9620 said:
    Well firstly i want turrets to be useful and for rifle skills to be remade into shotgun-like abilities

    Agreed, I just want them to fix turrets :( I miss turrets on my Engineer. Right now they just feel like wasted space.

    i still use turrets when ever i can. but they need a serious rework. not just a buff, but a rework.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nikal.4921 said:
    At this point, I just want weapon swap.

    And more weapons at the core profession, like a mace, so we can melee easily.

    @Iozeph.5617 said:
    Again: Modes apply aspects of the old/new kits to base weapons.

    I posted something like that in the old forum, but I didn't bother reposting it because it's kinda insane regarding the skill numbers, and sometimes, more is less. My idea was you equipped two out of four modes. They were Ignition (Flamethrower), Alchemics (Elixir Gun), Voltage (Electricity), and Mechanics (Shotgun). They fit well with rifle, but they become a mess when you start factoring pistols, shield, etc.

    And yeah, it's far too similar to the elementalist, which I'm fine for an elite specialization (read my holomancer redesign idea above), but not the core profession.

    @Forty Keks.9620 said:

    @Xruptor.3965 said:

    @Forty Keks.9620 said:
    Well firstly i want turrets to be useful and for rifle skills to be remade into shotgun-like abilities

    Agreed, I just want them to fix turrets :( I miss turrets on my Engineer. Right now they just feel like wasted space.

    i still use turrets when ever i can. but they need a serious rework. not just a buff, but a rework.

    Would help to have turrets be the core profession mechanic, but we already have kits. Maybe if we removed turrets from the core profession, and made a new elite specialization using them properly with the mechanic bar? Kinda like the scourge and his shades.

  • Iyomi.5374Iyomi.5374 Member ✭✭
    • Remove Throw Mine.
    • Bomb Kit -> Mine Kit.
  • Dusk.4708Dusk.4708 Member ✭✭

    med kit...........

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    Revisiting the redesign ideas in a short way, plus some new elite specialization ideas to see how this redesign would improve future content too:

    • Engineer: The tool belt is gone. Kits become the new mechanic, and are no longer slot skills. You equip two kits in mechanic slots F1 and F2. The available kits are Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Energy Cannon (mortar upgrade, inspired by the Aetherblades), Machine Gun (new), and Repair Kit (tool kit upgrade, wrench plus welder with repair options for mechanical support, specially turrets). The now gone weapon and device kit slot skills are replaced by two new types. Grenade and Med Kit skills are merged and turned into new grenade slot skills, using the ammo system. Bomb kit skills are turned into new mine slot skills, working like traps, with an additional remote controller option for manual explosion. Removed tool belt skills are salvaged as sequence skills for their respective slot skills whenever possible. Weapon swap is enabled, and main-hand mace is unlocked for the core profession.

    • Scrapper: The new mechanic is the gyro fleet. Gyros respawn automatically every few seconds, up to a maximum of 6 active gyros, and fly in circles around the scrapper. You can equip one out of three gyro fleets, and they can be commanded using mechanic skills F3, F4, and F5. These are Shredder (melee, razors), Gunner (ranged, rapid-fire guns), and Blaster (ranged area of effect, missiles). Original gyro slot skills are gone, replaced by stances, which let you command the gyro fleet by using various combat formations around the scrapper or the target enemy.

    • Holosmith: Kits are gone, replaced by the Photon Forge. You can activate the forge using the F4 mechanic skill, which works as a mode, similar to the elementalist attunements. This upgrades your current weapons into holographic versions, upgrading their weapon skills as well, unlike the original version, where the holographic weapons were independent and always the same. Weapon swap is still enabled while the forge is active, and the heat resource remains the same. New mechanic skills F1, F2, and F3 allow heat manipulation both inside and outside Photon Forge mode, salvaging mechanics from the removed exceed tool belt skills.

    • Golemancer: New mechanic skill F3 activates a golem suit transformation, with bonus base health and attributes. The transformation removes weapon swap and replaces weapon skills with the golem's fist skills. However, you can still equip kits while transformed, now integrated inside the golem suit. Once equipped, the hands and arms will retract, getting replaced by new limbs adapted to the selected golem kit. These golem kits unlock new skills, generally more powerful than the originals. Glyphs are the new slot skills, having different effects on normal and golem mode.

    • Technopriest: The new mechanic is the rift, aesthetically inspired by steam portals, and mechanically similar to scourge shades. Placed across the battlefield, each rift replicates any nearby allied blast area of effect damage across all other rifts, from the closest to the furthest. Placing rifts close enough to each other can create a chain reaction with said blast, increasing its power. Mantras are the new slot skills, their effects starting at the technopriest's position, and getting replicated by rifts from the closest to the furthest right after.

    • Occultist: The new mechanic is a pet, an ancient living artifact called the Gatekeeper. This otherworldly floating ball of gears and scraps feasts on nearby sources of energy and technology, growing and evolving with the absorbed knowledge. The pet can be commanded with mechanic skills F3, F4, and F5. The pet reacts to kit usage, switching to different forms whenever you equip a kit. For example, equipping the flamethrower will turn the Gatekeeper into a miniature sun, gaining abilities similar to the equipped kit. The new slot skills are shouts, which are screamed directly by the Gatekeeper itself.

  • Goldthunder.1264Goldthunder.1264 Member
    edited June 6, 2018

    Honestly, if I had to narrow down at least one thing I'd change with the base Engineer, I'd at least give them a trait that lets them drop turrets with a ground target instead of always having to drop them right at their feet. As of now, the only thing remotely similar to this is Supply Drop, and that's an Elite Skill that drops a bunch of random turrets that you can't even pick up to shorten the cooldown. Not to mention that unlike your normal turrets, they have a time limit before they disappear. So not only do you have to pray that it drops the turrets you want, but you have to blow them all up so they aren't aggro-ing random kitten once you leave, or they'll time out before you kill the boss, resulting in both a dps loss and the realization that you just blew your Elite Skill on something that kitten you over hard with RNG, and is not even all that helpful to begin with.
    So yeah, I definitely want to see Arena Net either rework a trait or add one that lets you ground target cast your turrets.

    Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @Goldthunder.1264 said:
    Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

    AFAIK Supply Crate always spawns the same: a healing Turret, a Flame Turret and a Net Turret.
    Its quite a meh skill. The best it offers is the stun, IMO.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Supply_Crate

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    Here is how I would rework the Engineer:
    Firstly, the kits would need some power increases, and a more defined role. Each one would serve a purpose and be used in certain builds.
    Secondly, the trait lines. Some trait lines are great in defining what kind of builds can come out of it, based on 2-3 different directions (example direct burst damage or sustained damage in Explosives), however most of them are not. If I am not mistaken, Engineer was mostly supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades profession. So each trait line needs to have powerful traits and trait synergies to better reflect this concept. Right now for example, inventions and alchemy are really hard to determine where they belong in terms of roles. Both trait lines offer some physical defense, and condi removal, but not enough of one or the other. (ideas coming soon as to how this would be done later in my other post, Core/Scrapper Trait Changes)
    Third, offer viable ranged choices for the Engineer. As it stands, although Engineer has a rifle and pistols, most of the attacks want you in rather close to deal damage. Engineer, recently, was introduced to two more close range options. Ranged options are not too viable atm and need to be addressed to help bring some possible builds into light and fruition.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghostt.1293Ghostt.1293 Member ✭✭

    Weapon swap

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Goldthunder.1264 said:
    Honestly, if I had to narrow down at least one thing I'd change with the base Engineer, I'd at least give them a trait that lets them drop turrets with a ground target instead of always having to drop them right at their feet. As of now, the only thing remotely similar to this is Supply Drop, and that's an Elite Skill that drops a bunch of random turrets that you can't even pick up to shorten the cooldown. Not to mention that unlike your normal turrets, they have a time limit before they disappear. So not only do you have to pray that it drops the turrets you want, but you have to blow them all up so they aren't aggro-ing random kitten once you leave, or they'll time out before you kill the boss, resulting in both a dps loss and the realization that you just blew your Elite Skill on something that kitten you over hard with RNG, and is not even all that helpful to begin with.
    So yeah, I definitely want to see Arena Net either rework a trait or add one that lets you ground target cast your turrets.

    Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

    I wouldn't even make it trait-based, I would make that be the default thing. That simple change would make turrets so much more better than now.

    Alternatively, they could take turrets away from the core profession, and turn them into an elite specialization, but they're so ingrained I'm not sure if people would be too happy about the change. I'm kinda biased because I love kits and I want those to stay as the profession mechanic, but turrets aren't far from an ideal core profession mechanic either.

    The change would go like this:

    • Remove the tool belt. Replace it with a turret control panel.
    • You have 5 turret sets, and you have to pick 2. You can then swap between them.
    • These new turrets are more technologically advanced, and can repurpose themselves. When you swap the turret set, the existing turrets just swap their own weapons, and you don't need to manually replace them.
    • Remove turret slot skills. Replace them with turret boosts for the new turret mechanic. Signets could work well, providing the passive/active gameplay.
    • Remove device and weapon kits. Replace them with two new slot skill families: grenades and mines.

    Turrets are placed using mechanic skill F1, much like scourge shades. The maximum number of deployed turrets is 3. You swap your turret set using F5. Each of the 5 turret sets would have different abilities, located at mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4. The turret sets are:

    • Machine Gun Turret: Direct damage.
    • Flame Turret: Burning condition damage.
    • Elixir Turret: Healing and poison condition damage.
    • Rocket Turret: Large area of effect damage.
    • Net/Mortar Turret: Crowd control and area of effect damage.

    What about elite specializations? I'll use the same examples as my last version. Additionally, each elite specialization includes a new exclusive turret role, much like revenant includes new legends.

    • Scrapper: The turrets become gyros, gaining the ability to fly and move instead of being locked to the ground. Maximum of 6 deployed at once, and same roles as above. New turret role: Razor (melee cleaving).
    • Holosmith: The new mechanic is the Photon Forge. Upon activation, your current weapons are upgraded into holographic versions with alternate weapon skills. Your turrets are affected by this boost too, gaining new abilities as well. New turret role: Shield (support and defense).
    • Shocktrooper: Turrets are gone, replaced by 5 kits using the same roles above. You equip 2 kits in mechanic slots F1 and F2. The kits are: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, and Energy Cannon. No new turret role.
    • Technopriest: Turrets can now be polarized by using the F6 mechanic skills, inverting their effects. For example, the flame turret can be turned into a frost turret. New turret role: Shock/Magnetic (electricity and ranged crowd control, attracts/repels depending on polarization).
    • Golemancer: Your turrets can now merge, becoming a golem pet with the same role as the active turret set. The golem has different tiers depending on how many turrets were merged, increasing in size and power with each. Damage dealt to the golem can break its equipment, downgrading its tier. New turret role: Thumper (melee crowd control).

    I'm liking this way too much. I might end up replacing my previous "kits as the core mechanic" idea, as long as I can update the other now-conflicting mechanics of the other 8 professions, since I already gave mesmer a similar turret-like role. I'll probably look at moving kits as a core mechanic to thief, and then look for something new for mesmer.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Here is how I would rework the Engineer:
    Firstly, the kits would need some power increases, and a more defined role. Each one would serve a purpose and be used in certain builds.
    Secondly, the trait lines. Some trait lines are great in defining what kind of builds can come out of it, based on 2-3 different directions (example direct burst damage or sustained damage in Explosives), however most of them are not. If I am not mistaken, Engineer was mostly supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades profession. So each trait line needs to have powerful traits and trait synergies to better reflect this concept. Right now for example, inventions and alchemy are really hard to determine where they belong in terms of roles. Both trait lines offer some physical defense, and condi removal, but not enough of one or the other. (ideas coming soon as to how this would be done later in my other post, Core/Scrapper Trait Changes)
    Third, offer viable ranged choices for the Engineer. As it stands, although Engineer has a rifle and pistols, most of the attacks want you in rather close to deal damage. Engineer, recently, was introduced to two more close range options. Ranged options are not too viable atm and need to be addressed to help bring some possible builds into light and fruition.

    I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

  • @Lonami.2987 said:
    I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

    Isn't that basically a revenant?

    I wish they would make a seperate trait line for kits. I would redesign the targetted turrets so you could deploy them and then enter and use them. Like a stationary kit that gives you addional armor and can be aimed.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMO, one kit per traitline is good.
    You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

    Alchemy -> Elixir Gun Kit
    Firearms -> Flamethrower Kit
    Tools -> Tool Kit
    Inventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)
    Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)
    Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)
    Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    IMO, one kit per traitline is good.
    You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

    Alchemy -> Elixir Gun Kit
    Firearms -> Flamethrower Kit
    Tools -> Tool Kit
    Inventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)
    Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)
    Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)
    Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

    wasn't toolkit supposed to be the "turret"-kit?

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    It has a very weak relation: the repair thing. IMO it could be kept or not, IMO toolkit doesn't need turrets to shine, and turrets should be able to act in a more independent way. Also I forgot the Med Kit, which should match better with Inventions, so maybe the turrets can become a "core" specific kit?
    I don't know.

  • I talk about the changes I would like to see in my post Kits Should Be a Class Mechanic.

    Basically, I agree with you that Tool Belt is not well designed to be a proper profession mechanic and kits offer a much more unique and defined profession theme. However, I don't think Tool Belt is bad, and I think losing it altogether would strip the class of some of its identity. I proposed that the healing and elite Tool Belt skills can be removed and be replaced with selectable kit slots binded to F4 and F5. You are not losing much when removing the healing and elite Tool Belt skills and you gain some freedom by not restricting utility slots with kits.

    Elite specs would gain their own unchangeable kit in the F5 slot and core engi would have the benefit of running two core kits instead of only one, allowing for unique core builds that the elite specs cannot replicate. Scrapper would get its own kit that controls the function gyro and gives it useful skills with visible cooldowns.

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    IMO, one kit per traitline is good.
    You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

    Alchemy -> Elixir Gun Kit
    Firearms -> Flamethrower Kit
    Tools -> Tool Kit
    Inventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)
    Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)
    Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)
    Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

    If kits were made a class mechanic I believe there should be a central traitline for generalized kit traits, namely Tools, and a handful of kit specific traits like you laid out. With the exception that tool kit belongs in inventions. This would follow the profession structure that every other class follows.

  • I love tool belt skils. It is great that every skill we take also adds a tool belt, including kits. I would not want to change this. I think the best way to balance core, would be to make a trait line only core engineer could take and place all kit traits beneath that. Elites could still use kits just not as optimally as core engineer can.

  • That would just be another elite specialization. I believe any changes to core engineer should follow the basic class structure to minimize the amount of redesign required. Tools already fits the role as the class mechanic specialization.

    I agree losing kit tool belt skills kinda suck, but the benefit from freeing up utility slots outweighs this. For instance, losing Healing mists means you lose a break stun, but that can easily be compensated for by taking another break stun like thumper turret.

    Other toolbelt skills could and should be added to the kit weapon skills. Skills like Grenade Barrage, Big Ol' Bomb, and Orbital Command could replace the weaker skills in the kit and take up the 5th slot as the strongest skill in the kit. This would buff these kits to compensate for the 2 kit limit.

  • 1) Turn kits into equipable items that take up a weapon slot.

    2) Give weapon swapping.

    Access to no more than two kits at a time means kit skills/traits can be buffed or made more interesting without ruining class balance. No more overly lame rotations.

    3) Combine grenade and bomb kit into one explosives kit. There should be at least one aoe knockback detonate skill here.

    4) Get rid of turret detonate skills.

    5) Give turrets two modes: stationary and provides area buff/debuff, or follow and no buff/debuff. Stationary mode should be a ground targeting skill.

    6) Make all toolbelt skills so they can be used during other skills without interrupting them.

    7) Some trait or traits that make condi weapons/kits good with power builds and power weapons/kits good with condi builds.

    8) Golemancer.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    As a start I on core engi I would streamline the different kits into their roles more aggressively. By this i mean that kits should do what they say on the tin very well, and not much else.

    bombs for power
    flamer for condi
    elixir for boons
    grenade for cc / control
    healkit for healing

    toolkit should be reworked into a kind of summoner's kit, building constructs and supporting them with the kit.

    mortar should offer AOE with no cooldown but long cast times for each of the above ideas, for instance 1 is power based shell, 2 is condi based, 3 gives boons, etc. etc.

    As it stands, I find some kits lacking in output. They can do their job, but not well enough in my opinion. When using flamethrower I find I just cant push out burn stacks like you might expect it to compete with weaver or firebrand. It's a flamethrower for gosh darn sake.

    Using this as a foundation, I would then make other utility skills help synergise with these kits. elixirs synergizing with flame, healkit and elixir gun, turrets with toolkit, flame and grenade, gadgets with grenade and bombs, anything that can be come up with really, it doesnt matter too much, just so long as the choices are there. The foundation of core engi is the kits and are what make engi attractive in my opinion.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

  • O wouldn't redesign it. Just tweak and alter traits and utilities. I love it they way it is at its core.

    Sparkr's Wonderful World of Engineering - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEONFRaJV2u2f12ytXEir9A

    • Flamethrower should have better power/condi scaling. Flamethrower should be close range power/burning condi weapon. Smoke Vent should create mobile Smoke Field that pulses Blind and Burning.
    • Rifle should be redesigned into heavy power close range AoE weapon like a shotgun with some CC.
    • Pistols should stay as they are as 900meters condi option.
    • Grenades should stay as additional condi option. Range should be increased from 900 to 1200. Grenadier trait should be baseline. New trait that reduces grenades CD and somehow improves them should be implemented.
    • Bomb Kit should be completely redesigned into Rocket Launcher Kit. Rocket Launcher is a 1200 range Power weapon option. A lot of AoE damage, but uses common targeting instead of ground targeting.
    • Elixirgun Kit should stay as supportive condi/utility weapon.
    • Toolkit should be melee condi/CC weapon.
    • Holosmith and Scrapper weapon should provide another power melee option as they do now.

    This will provide better options for both Condi and Power engineer and provide both versions with option to have both close range and long range options without regular weapon swap and without relying to much on elite specs.

  • Make all weapons have an "alternate fire" mode, basically an elementalist attunement. This lets Engineer weapons achieve multiple fantasies, like say, having both a Shotgun and Railgun mode on the Rifle. This helps cover up some of the Engineer's baseline deficiencies.

    Make all kits have more definied niches. There should be one clear "Power" kit and one clear "Condition" kit. There should also be a "Support" kit which focuses on boons.

    Make each traitline have a clear focus as well as effective build paths in regards to PvE

    Explosives: Focuses on Power damage and Offensive support through massive Might + Vulnerability stacking.
    -Explosives has a clear path that boosts Power damage at all levels
    -Engineer with the right traits should be able to maintain both 25 Might stacks and decent uptime on 15+ Vulnerability stacks.

    Firearms: Focuses on Criticals and Condition damage. Mostly selfish traitline for Core engineer.
    -The most effective build for PvE damage should be the same for both Condition and Power damage. This allows for more design space for other traits.
    -Firearms should allow Engineer to stack Fury in a group

    Alchemy: Focuses on Boons, Conditions clearing, and Tanking.
    -Alchemy should allow Elixirs to affect allies and grant Engineer the ability to grant most boons to the party.
    -Alchemy should allow Engineers to completely maintain certain boons depending on which other traitlines have been picked.
    -Alchemy should grant some modicum of condition clearing.

    Inventions: Focus on Healing and Protection + Aegis
    -Inventions should allow full uptime on Regeneration and Protection in a group.
    -Inventions should be a healing specialist.

    Tools: Focus on Quickness, Damage, and Endurance.
    -Tools should allow the Engineer to stack Quickness and Vigor in a group.
    -Tools should have decent damage output as the third Core Engineer damage traitline.

    Scrapper: Focus on Barriers and Stability.
    -Scrapper should give the tools to maintain Stability in a raid.
    -Scrapper + Inventions should be an amazing healbot that reaches Water Elementalist levels of throughput with a combination of barriers and heals.

    Holosmith: Focus on Power and Burning damage.
    -Holosmith should bring more sources of Burn damage, allowing for burn centric builds and Grieving builds that utilize only burn damage in conjunction with Power damage, allowing for 0 Expertise, 100% burn duration setups.

    Engineers should be able to fit like a puzzle piece into almost any group setup with the right traitline.

    Turrets now have a set duration after which they automatically detonate. Turret Overcharges are now casted by the Engineer with appropriately powerful effects.
    Rocket Turret replaced by a Barrier Generator turret.

    Gadgets now have a new gimmick. All Gadget abilities and their corresponding toolbelt abilities can be "Overclocked" while on cooldown and the corresponding ability is not. Overclocking will put a corresponding ability on the original's cooldown + 20%. Gadget abilities and their toolbelts can now provide different niche effects, are also much more powerful and fit more in line with the Tools traitline:

    Rocket Boots: Breaks stun and evades during the animation. Only one charge.
    ->Rocket Kick: Flying dropkick which evades during the animation, dealing massive damage and burn.

    Drop Mine: Instantly drop a mine at your feet which removes 3 boons and knocks enemies back after a short arm time. Unblockable and Unevadeable like traps.
    ->Sticky Bomb: Lob a Sticky Bomb which can be redetonated while in flight or on a target to remove 3 boons. Sticky bomb is a long cast that is unblockable, but the detonation is not.

    These two abilities need the most change while the others just need some values adjusted.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:
    The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

    this is every redesign thread, not just engi. from my observation ppl tend to redesign classes around the one aspect they enjoy most (turret engi, minion necro, etc.) the other aspects be damned or homogenize them (turn kits into regular weaponswap)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2018

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Goldthunder.1264 said:
    Honestly, if I had to narrow down at least one thing I'd change with the base Engineer, I'd at least give them a trait that lets them drop turrets with a ground target instead of always having to drop them right at their feet. As of now, the only thing remotely similar to this is Supply Drop, and that's an Elite Skill that drops a bunch of random turrets that you can't even pick up to shorten the cooldown. Not to mention that unlike your normal turrets, they have a time limit before they disappear. So not only do you have to pray that it drops the turrets you want, but you have to blow them all up so they aren't aggro-ing random kitten once you leave, or they'll time out before you kill the boss, resulting in both a dps loss and the realization that you just blew your Elite Skill on something that kitten you over hard with RNG, and is not even all that helpful to begin with.
    So yeah, I definitely want to see Arena Net either rework a trait or add one that lets you ground target cast your turrets.

    Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

    I wouldn't even make it trait-based, I would make that be the default thing. That simple change would make turrets so much more better than now.

    Alternatively, they could take turrets away from the core profession, and turn them into an elite specialization, but they're so ingrained I'm not sure if people would be too happy about the change. I'm kinda biased because I love kits and I want those to stay as the profession mechanic, but turrets aren't far from an ideal core profession mechanic either.

    The change would go like this:

    • Remove the tool belt. Replace it with a turret control panel.
    • You have 5 turret sets, and you have to pick 2. You can then swap between them.
    • These new turrets are more technologically advanced, and can repurpose themselves. When you swap the turret set, the existing turrets just swap their own weapons, and you don't need to manually replace them.
    • Remove turret slot skills. Replace them with turret boosts for the new turret mechanic. Signets could work well, providing the passive/active gameplay.
    • Remove device and weapon kits. Replace them with two new slot skill families: grenades and mines.

    Turrets are placed using mechanic skill F1, much like scourge shades. The maximum number of deployed turrets is 3. You swap your turret set using F5. Each of the 5 turret sets would have different abilities, located at mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4. The turret sets are:

    • Machine Gun Turret: Direct damage.
    • Flame Turret: Burning condition damage.
    • Elixir Turret: Healing and poison condition damage.
    • Rocket Turret: Large area of effect damage.
    • Net/Mortar Turret: Crowd control and area of effect damage.

    What about elite specializations? I'll use the same examples as my last version. Additionally, each elite specialization includes a new exclusive turret role, much like revenant includes new legends.

    • Scrapper: The turrets become gyros, gaining the ability to fly and move instead of being locked to the ground. Maximum of 6 deployed at once, and same roles as above. New turret role: Razor (melee cleaving).
    • Holosmith: The new mechanic is the Photon Forge. Upon activation, your current weapons are upgraded into holographic versions with alternate weapon skills. Your turrets are affected by this boost too, gaining new abilities as well. New turret role: Shield (support and defense).
    • Shocktrooper: Turrets are gone, replaced by 5 kits using the same roles above. You equip 2 kits in mechanic slots F1 and F2. The kits are: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, and Energy Cannon. No new turret role.
    • Technopriest: Turrets can now be polarized by using the F6 mechanic skills, inverting their effects. For example, the flame turret can be turned into a frost turret. New turret role: Shock/Magnetic (electricity and ranged crowd control, attracts/repels depending on polarization).
    • Golemancer: Your turrets can now merge, becoming a golem pet with the same role as the active turret set. The golem has different tiers depending on how many turrets were merged, increasing in size and power with each. Damage dealt to the golem can break its equipment, downgrading its tier. New turret role: Thumper (melee crowd control).

    I'm liking this way too much. I might end up replacing my previous "kits as the core mechanic" idea, as long as I can update the other now-conflicting mechanics of the other 8 professions, since I already gave mesmer a similar turret-like role. I'll probably look at moving kits as a core mechanic to thief, and then look for something new for mesmer.

    Refining the previous idea. The tool belt disappears, as do the kit and turret slot skills. Weapon swap is enabled.

    Engineer

    • Core mechanic: Turret (You equip two sets, and swap between them [similar to ranger pets]).
    • Turret options: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, Mortar.
    • Weapons: Mace (MH), Pistol (MH+OH), Scepter (MH), Shield (OH), Torch (OH), Vial (OH), Rifle (2H).
    • Slot skills: Elixir, Gadget, Grenade (Using the ammunition system), Mine (Similar to traps), Signet (Boosts turrets).

    Scrapper

    • New mechanic: Swarm (Turrets become gyros, and gain the ability to move).
    • New Turret option: Razor.
    • Weapon: Hammer (2H).
    • Slot skill: Minion (Summons extra swarm units).

    Holosmith

    • New mechanic: Mode (Photon Forge, temporarily boosts weapon and turret skills, unlocking holographic alternate abilities [similar to elementalist attunements]).
    • New Turret option: Shield.
    • Weapon: Sword (MH).
    • Slot skill: Glyph (Different effect depending on Photon Forge status).

    Shocktrooper

    • New mechanic: Transformation (Kit equipment based on the active turret type).
    • New Turret option: Thumper (Power Fists as the kit equivalent).
    • Weapon: Dagger (MH+OH).
    • Slot skill: Physical.

    Technopriest

    • New mechanic: Advanced Turret (You can now polarize turrets, unlocking additional abilities for them)
    • New Turret option: Shock (pulls nearby enemies, and pushes them away when polarized)
    • Weapon: Scythe (2H).
    • Slot skill: Mantra.

    Occultist

    • New mechanic: Artifact (Turrets become demonic rifts [similar to scourge shades], and can no longer be attacked)
    • New Turret option: Siphon (steals life from nearby enemies).
    • Weapon: Staff (2H).
    • Slot skill: Shout (Screams, replicate at the point of each rift)

    @Tehologist.5841 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

    Isn't that basically a revenant?

    And a ranger, with two pets at once, not more, not less.

    Generally speaking, I believe every profession would benefit from a binary mechanic customization.

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    I love tool belt skils. It is great that every skill we take also adds a tool belt, including kits. I would not want to change this. I think the best way to balance core, would be to make a trait line only core engineer could take and place all kit traits beneath that. Elites could still use kits just not as optimally as core engineer can.

    Good tool belt skills can be saved and converted into slot skills, as new skills or chain effects for existing ones.

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    That would just be another elite specialization. I believe any changes to core engineer should follow the basic class structure to minimize the amount of redesign required. Tools already fits the role as the class mechanic specialization.

    I agree losing kit tool belt skills kinda suck, but the benefit from freeing up utility slots outweighs this. For instance, losing Healing mists means you lose a break stun, but that can easily be compensated for by taking another break stun like thumper turret.

    Other toolbelt skills could and should be added to the kit weapon skills. Skills like Grenade Barrage, Big Ol' Bomb, and Orbital Command could replace the weaker skills in the kit and take up the 5th slot as the strongest skill in the kit. This would buff these kits to compensate for the 2 kit limit.

    Yup, there's lots of useless skills, because there's way too many skills at once, and they can't balance them properly.

    Reduce the number of skills, and you can make kits more powerful.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

    That's what redesigns are about.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So, a fully turret centered engie.
    No, please. PLEASE NO!

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Goldthunder.1264 said:
    Honestly, if I had to narrow down at least one thing I'd change with the base Engineer, I'd at least give them a trait that lets them drop turrets with a ground target instead of always having to drop them right at their feet. As of now, the only thing remotely similar to this is Supply Drop, and that's an Elite Skill that drops a bunch of random turrets that you can't even pick up to shorten the cooldown. Not to mention that unlike your normal turrets, they have a time limit before they disappear. So not only do you have to pray that it drops the turrets you want, but you have to blow them all up so they aren't aggro-ing random kitten once you leave, or they'll time out before you kill the boss, resulting in both a dps loss and the realization that you just blew your Elite Skill on something that kitten you over hard with RNG, and is not even all that helpful to begin with.
    So yeah, I definitely want to see Arena Net either rework a trait or add one that lets you ground target cast your turrets.

    Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

    I wouldn't even make it trait-based, I would make that be the default thing. That simple change would make turrets so much more better than now.

    Alternatively, they could take turrets away from the core profession, and turn them into an elite specialization, but they're so ingrained I'm not sure if people would be too happy about the change. I'm kinda biased because I love kits and I want those to stay as the profession mechanic, but turrets aren't far from an ideal core profession mechanic either.

    The change would go like this:

    • Remove the tool belt. Replace it with a turret control panel.
    • You have 5 turret sets, and you have to pick 2. You can then swap between them.
    • These new turrets are more technologically advanced, and can repurpose themselves. When you swap the turret set, the existing turrets just swap their own weapons, and you don't need to manually replace them.
    • Remove turret slot skills. Replace them with turret boosts for the new turret mechanic. Signets could work well, providing the passive/active gameplay.
    • Remove device and weapon kits. Replace them with two new slot skill families: grenades and mines.

    Turrets are placed using mechanic skill F1, much like scourge shades. The maximum number of deployed turrets is 3. You swap your turret set using F5. Each of the 5 turret sets would have different abilities, located at mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4. The turret sets are:

    • Machine Gun Turret: Direct damage.
    • Flame Turret: Burning condition damage.
    • Elixir Turret: Healing and poison condition damage.
    • Rocket Turret: Large area of effect damage.
    • Net/Mortar Turret: Crowd control and area of effect damage.

    What about elite specializations? I'll use the same examples as my last version. Additionally, each elite specialization includes a new exclusive turret role, much like revenant includes new legends.

    • Scrapper: The turrets become gyros, gaining the ability to fly and move instead of being locked to the ground. Maximum of 6 deployed at once, and same roles as above. New turret role: Razor (melee cleaving).
    • Holosmith: The new mechanic is the Photon Forge. Upon activation, your current weapons are upgraded into holographic versions with alternate weapon skills. Your turrets are affected by this boost too, gaining new abilities as well. New turret role: Shield (support and defense).
    • Shocktrooper: Turrets are gone, replaced by 5 kits using the same roles above. You equip 2 kits in mechanic slots F1 and F2. The kits are: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, and Energy Cannon. No new turret role.
    • Technopriest: Turrets can now be polarized by using the F6 mechanic skills, inverting their effects. For example, the flame turret can be turned into a frost turret. New turret role: Shock/Magnetic (electricity and ranged crowd control, attracts/repels depending on polarization).
    • Golemancer: Your turrets can now merge, becoming a golem pet with the same role as the active turret set. The golem has different tiers depending on how many turrets were merged, increasing in size and power with each. Damage dealt to the golem can break its equipment, downgrading its tier. New turret role: Thumper (melee crowd control).

    I'm liking this way too much. I might end up replacing my previous "kits as the core mechanic" idea, as long as I can update the other now-conflicting mechanics of the other 8 professions, since I already gave mesmer a similar turret-like role. I'll probably look at moving kits as a core mechanic to thief, and then look for something new for mesmer.

    Refining the previous idea. The tool belt disappears, as do the kit and turret slot skills. Weapon swap is enabled.

    Engineer

    • Core mechanic: Turret (You equip two sets, and swap between them [similar to ranger pets]).
    • Turret options: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, Mortar.
    • Weapons: Mace (MH), Pistol (MH+OH), Scepter (MH), Shield (OH), Torch (OH), Vial (OH), Rifle (2H).
    • Slot skills: Elixir, Gadget, Grenade (Using the ammunition system), Mine (Similar to traps), Signet (Boosts turrets).

    Scrapper

    • New mechanic: Swarm (Turrets become gyros, and gain the ability to move).
    • New Turret option: Razor.
    • Weapon: Hammer (2H).
    • Slot skill: Minion (Summons extra swarm units).

    Holosmith

    • New mechanic: Mode (Photon Forge, temporarily boosts weapon and turret skills, unlocking holographic alternate abilities [similar to elementalist attunements]).
    • New Turret option: Shield.
    • Weapon: Sword (MH).
    • Slot skill: Glyph (Different effect depending on Photon Forge status).

    Shocktrooper

    • New mechanic: Transformation (Kit equipment based on the active turret type).
    • New Turret option: Thumper (Power Fists as the kit equivalent).
    • Weapon: Dagger (MH+OH).
    • Slot skill: Physical.

    Technopriest

    • New mechanic: Advanced Turret (You can now polarize turrets, unlocking additional abilities for them)
    • New Turret option: Shock (pulls nearby enemies, and pushes them away when polarized)
    • Weapon: Scythe (2H).
    • Slot skill: Mantra.

    Occultist

    • New mechanic: Artifact (Turrets become demonic rifts [similar to scourge shades], and can no longer be attacked)
    • New Turret option: Siphon (steals life from nearby enemies).
    • Weapon: Staff (2H).
    • Slot skill: Shout (Screams, replicate at the point of each rift)

    @Tehologist.5841 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

    Isn't that basically a revenant?

    And a ranger, with two pets at once, not more, not less.

    Generally speaking, I believe every profession would benefit from a binary mechanic customization.

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    I love tool belt skils. It is great that every skill we take also adds a tool belt, including kits. I would not want to change this. I think the best way to balance core, would be to make a trait line only core engineer could take and place all kit traits beneath that. Elites could still use kits just not as optimally as core engineer can.

    Good tool belt skills can be saved and converted into slot skills, as new skills or chain effects for existing ones.

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    That would just be another elite specialization. I believe any changes to core engineer should follow the basic class structure to minimize the amount of redesign required. Tools already fits the role as the class mechanic specialization.

    I agree losing kit tool belt skills kinda suck, but the benefit from freeing up utility slots outweighs this. For instance, losing Healing mists means you lose a break stun, but that can easily be compensated for by taking another break stun like thumper turret.

    Other toolbelt skills could and should be added to the kit weapon skills. Skills like Grenade Barrage, Big Ol' Bomb, and Orbital Command could replace the weaker skills in the kit and take up the 5th slot as the strongest skill in the kit. This would buff these kits to compensate for the 2 kit limit.

    Yup, there's lots of useless skills, because there's way too many skills at once, and they can't balance them properly.

    Reduce the number of skills, and you can make kits more powerful.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

    That's what redesigns are about.

    No no no, I get the concept of a redesign. I was just express my belief that most of the redesigns really aren't for the better. A lot of them seem to pick one or two elements that they really really like and then that's about it. Or they pull in elements from other professions they think are cool and slap it onto the Engineer. And I get it, some folks would rather be playing a different profession entirely, but I don't really see most of these redesigns as being better than what we have now. They are different, to be sure, but not better and I imagine after 6 years they would be just as problematic as current Engineer seems to be for some folks.

    Then again, why bother playing Engineer, or anything else really as a lot of professions get redesigned, if you would rather be playing something entirely different?

  • Seems odd that a lot of people chiming in forget medkit and engineers that like to heal and support others exist rather than being nothing but damage and want to be able to compete with healers like firebrand or druid.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

    this is every redesign thread, not just engi. from my observation ppl tend to redesign classes around the one aspect they enjoy most (turret engi, minion necro, etc.) the other aspects be damned or homogenize them (turn kits into regular weaponswap)

    next post

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    [...]
    Refining the previous idea. The tool belt disappears, as do the kit and turret slot skills. Weapon swap is enabled.

    Engineer

    • Core mechanic: Turret
      [...]

    this sure gave me a giggle m8

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this engie kits look better tho it was made way before gw2 :)

    Mr. Z, open this gate. Mr. Z... Mr. Z, tear down this wall!

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    Undo every change made since late 2016.

    Except Minesweeper. I love Minesweeper. I love lamp.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Icefyer.9208 said:
    Seems odd that a lot of people chiming in forget medkit and engineers that like to heal and support others exist rather than being nothing but damage and want to be able to compete with healers like firebrand or druid.

    I don't think engineer healing can be made viable until we get an elite specialization designed specifically for that.

    You could always try to redesign the core profession in some way too. If you stick to a turret mechanic for the core, maybe spamming healing turrets could work. Or update the elixir gun and make it be more about support.

    @phs.6089 said:

    this engie kits look better tho it was made way before gw2 :)

    That's exactly what I envision when thinking about an engineer using turrets as the core mechanic.

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