Human Gods *Spoilers* - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Human Gods *Spoilers*

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Comments

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Did you seriously utilize the Christian concept of God? I don't follow that concept so let me just toss that out of the window. Also, it is better to not bring in religion into this discussion, even if it is for the sake of comparison.

    lol, "not bring religion into this discussion" when the whole premise of the discussion is about gods and their worshippers.

    Yup, beyond reasonable.

    I can't possibly imagine the life you live in to think that FICTIONAL and FANTASY story-lines are comparable with real-life religions that people here follow. Not only is it offensive, but also insensitive mainly because not everyone is Christian, and would therefore question your logic behind your statement. Had I not been knowledgeable about what you just said, I would have completely misunderstood your intentions. Furthermore, religion is a sensitive topic, which is why it's better if we do not even bring it up as a comparison. It is hard to tell the tone and intentions of a writer. I hope you understand that.

    You cannot fault me that you misunderstood the point of my post that it was never about IRL religion rather it's about human behavior on how they perceive their chosen deity and how they apply that perception to their arts and sculptures. You took my post as offensive when there is nothing offensive about it nor I ever attack any religion. You sir/ma'am is the problem, not me.

    And you just proved my point about misunderstanding intentions. Thank you so very much for setting an example.

    Now let me get back to the topic as I have better things to waste time on.

    ArenaNet, I hope you're reading this. You may have supporters but that does not excuse your poor performance. Not only has your servers been in horrible state, most of my friends have disappeared due to how poorly your game is being executed. Having a high amount of players does not mean retention. People are just cycling through. Unless you're in an online laundry business, please fix your work.

  • The beauty of free market is that you don't have to buy what you hate.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The beauty of free market is that you don't have to buy what you hate.

    Which is why I did not buy the expansion, it is good of you to emphasize on how we should not support developers who cannot perform well.

  • @Sun.2036 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The beauty of free market is that you don't have to buy what you hate.

    Which is why I did not buy the expansion, it is good of you to emphasize on how we should not support developers who cannot perform well.

    "perform well" is relative and subjective.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • It' always a futile thing trying to argue personal taste, then people use bad facts and get upset when others disagree. It's perfectly fine to not be impressed by Balthazar, I wasn't. But then again I'm used to seeing everyone in this game running around with fiery armor and glowing weapons and riding burning rocks around.

  • @MVP.7961 said:
    Dear Lord and Savior Abaddon, forgive me for I hath sinned! For I keep begging thy people to stick to the topic but I myself fail to.

    YOUR FALSE GOD IS DEAD!

    @MVP.7961 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    This line of discussion is on topic actually. Gods always take the form of the creature worshipping them. Human sees the gods as humanoid because it is easier for them to perceive a divine being by using an image that they are familiar with. If you look at the artistic depiction of the Christian God, for example, he is depicted to be humanoid even though there is no evidence of what he really looks like -- which coincides with the Tyrian human's depiction of their gods when looking their statues. Thus regardless of the gods' actual form, human sees them, or rather, the gods show themselves, to be humanoid.

    Did you seriously utilize the Christian concept of God? I don't follow that concept so let me just toss that out of the window. Also, it is better to not bring in religion into this discussion, even if it is for the sake of comparison.

    Yeah, how dare you use actual human behavior to argue against this guy's subjective objective view on what the diminished Balthazar should look like!

    I take back what I said in my previous post, this is a great thread! Makes me miss being able to post gifs though.
    .


    Hate Is Fuel


    Hate Is Fuel.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    https://puu.sh/xGhsM/1c53d0fab0.png
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

    Excuse me Konnig
    IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT LYSSA TOOK IT

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    https://puu.sh/xGi5c/3e04fb76d2.png
    "It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colours of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings."

    Totally humanoid.

    "The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world. She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace."

    No indication of her being a humanoid, but that she lead humanity.

    "The two who are one, Lyss and Ilya, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past. For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road."

    Where is her being a humanoid mentioned?

    https://puu.sh/xG5xu/d3fb7de496.png really though Konnig.

    Also, there is that lore fact where of the Forgotten:

    "Human legends state that the Forgotten were originally brought to Tyria by the Six Gods to serve as the world's custodians during the gods' reforming of the planet, though this has been called into question due to the true history of the gods being revealed. Human records also say that the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE, though whether this refers to the world or the continent is unknown."

    The Forgotten are serpentine worshipers of the Six God. They are not even Humanoid. Yet here you are insisting that ANet did justice to Balthazar. No, they did not. These Gods brought a completely different creature to human beings as well.

    Need I remind you all that Balthazar is one of the Gods that took down Abaddon, and what do we get? This overgrown Norn potato?

    https://puu.sh/xG6b2/32b029300f.png

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Look at this video:

    All of these were Dervish Avatars of the Gods.
    And the armor skin we got are these.

    https://puu.sh/xGh1Q/b807eaca50.png
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish

    Physical embodiment of God. Which mean this form is his real form

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/9/92/Avatar_of_Balthazar_concept_art.jpg
    but Anet thought it wasn’t good enough and decide an elementliest norn look alike is better than the established look for him.

  • Sad that the *Seventh" God isn't even mentioned here.....DHUUM! The only true god of death!
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/6/63/Dhuum_concept_art.jpg

    Hope he will be back......

  • @syntohras.1064 said:
    Sad that the *Seventh" God isn't even mentioned here.....DHUUM! The only true god of death!
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/6/63/Dhuum_concept_art.jpg

    Hope he will be back......

    YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS!

  • Oh yeah Dhuum is so kitten. What a Legendary Banhammer hehehe. Hope too that he will have some "screentime" in future. Loved him really much in Guild Wars.

  • @MVP.7961 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Balthazar has always been perceived as a large human. If you look at Kormir, she's a frail old human. If Balthazar can disguise himself as a Mursaat, then he can surely disguise as human or norn. Judging by how Abaddon look, the human gods can be anything.

    Balthazar used Lyssa's mirror to change his appearance. He did not do so from his own magical abilities.

    Kormir is a human being. We all know she's a human being who was raised by the Gods and she took Abaddon's place hence her appearance. Grenth is half-God hence his appearance.

    Abaddon possesses six eyes. That is not human.

    True that Balthazar used the mirror and that is the point. What if his current image is just another illusion? What if all the gods look like Abaddon, big and ugly?

    Kormir is the human god of order, spirit, and truth, thus she cannot deceive us by making herself to look like something else other than human. Every other god is up for deception.

    Kormir was never a god. She was a human who was given Abaddon's powers and that is the main reason why she is a Goddess and because she's a human, Abaddon's power effect her drastically. I am guessing you did not play Guild Wars Nightfall. Please do look up the lore in case you have not. Look at Abaddon's form in the Realm of Torment.

    That is Abaddon at his weakest, and you'd think Balthazar would be more formidable.

    Abaddon was once a mortal. He too usurped a god and took its place. Just like Grenth and Kormir.

    Abaddon's form in the Realm of Torment is not his original appearance. It is like looking at Khilbron as a lich and going "even in life he had draconian wings!"

    Abaddon also was not at his weakest then. At least three of the eight seals blocking his power from escaping the Realm of Torment had been destroyed. Even when all eight seals were in place, he had all his power. He just couldn't use it to effectively influence beyond his prison.

    @MVP.7961 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Nothing actually says Abaddon has six eyes... His original appearance was human with a six eyed mask, but we never saw him with six eyes. His NF appearance was inhumane because his original body was destroyed and he was - according to gw.dat descriptions - creating a new body out of the Realm of Torment itself.

    Yet Abaddon is said to have had wings. What you said adds to the fact that the Six Gods are not human beings (being able to create new body like its nothing). My point here is that ANet has made a horrible representation of Balthazar

    His wings were blue and ethereal by description. To me, it sounded more like Paragon wings in gw1 but blue rather than gold. Whereas Dwayna had feathered wings, more akin to harpies except with blue skin, human feet, and white wings.

    Melandru is also said to be bark-covered... But is that because she is a sapient divine humanoid plant or because her godhood gave her bark covered skin?

    Ultimately hard to say.

    And making a new body for his soul to be housed in is no more inhumane than the M.I.G. asura storyline, forced to become Shiro'ken or Forged, or becoming a lich. Would you say Khilbron was not human? Because we know he was.

    There are many possibilities. As I said, I am only expressing my view on ANet's poor work on Balthazar's model.

    I would say Khilbron is an undead human being as the lore portrayed him to be. Abaddon was an unleashed God. The very fact that you said their forms are a shell highlights how inhumane they are. Yet ANet did not portray that with Balthazar.

    ANet's poor model work AND poor story work on Balthazar! SOMEONE MAKE THEM STOP! DEAR GAHD. Fire the writer.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

    killed off a God. An epic one too!

    That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

    I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

    'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

  • Killerbot.8645Killerbot.8645 Member ✭✭
    edited September 25, 2017

    @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

    killed off a God. An epic one too!

    That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

    I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

    'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

    Gotta hand it to you, your tantrum about PoF and ''muh balthazar'' is probably the best one I've seen so far, bravo.

    Can I have your stuff if you're quitting? Thanks.

  • @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

    killed off a God. An epic one too!

    That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

    I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

    'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

    Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

  • Alasia.9502Alasia.9502 Member ✭✭
    edited September 25, 2017

    @Killerbot.8645 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

    killed off a God. An epic one too!

    That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

    I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

    'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

    Gotta hand it to you, your tantrum about PoF and ''muh balthazar'' is probably the best one I've seen so far, bravo.

    Can I have your stuff if you're quitting? Thanks.

    Oh wow, then you haven't seen a tantrum in your life. Check this out: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/4816/the-path-of-failure-in-story-lore-pof-spoilers#latest

    Sure you can have all my garbage from this garbage game. One man's trash is another man's treasure I suppose. Have fun, garbage man.

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

    killed off a God. An epic one too!

    That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

    I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

    'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

    Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

    There is nothing forbidding the killing of a God. What is being discussed is how stupid the plot ANet brought is. It is absolutely horrendous. It's like reading a rookie fanfictions, an even those are better. Lord have mercy.
    This dude explains the problems pretty well:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/4816/the-path-of-failure-in-story-lore-pof-spoilers#latest

  • @MVP.7961 said:
    https://puu.sh/xGhsM/1c53d0fab0.png
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

    Excuse me Konnig
    IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT LYSSA TOOK IT

    Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

    Fixing it.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    https://puu.sh/xGi5c/3e04fb76d2.png
    "It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colours of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings."

    Totally humanoid.

    A human with wings, yes. And not even physical wings at that, otherwise the ocean wouldn't be the "physical manifestation" of his "blue wings" - this would imply ethereal wings, like we see on the Margonite Paragons in GW1.

    On you quoting Dwayna and Lyssa - I find it funny you go to a single source and proclaim it to be the end all be all. Want them to show humanoid appearance? Look at ANY statue or mural depiction of them.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    https://puu.sh/xG5xu/d3fb7de496.png really though Konnig.

    And what does my ancient comment about the globe in the Chantry of Secrets have to do with any of this conversation? Is it about how the gods came to the world of Tyria as gods? Well, humans came from the same place in the Mists.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Also, there is that lore fact where of the Forgotten:

    "Human legends state that the Forgotten were originally brought to Tyria by the Six Gods to serve as the world's custodians during the gods' reforming of the planet, though this has been called into question due to the true history of the gods being revealed. Human records also say that the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE, though whether this refers to the world or the continent is unknown."

    The Forgotten are serpentine worshipers of the Six God. They are not even Humanoid. Yet here you are insisting that ANet did justice to Balthazar. No, they did not. These Gods brought a completely different creature to human beings as well.

    I fail to see what this has to do with anything? Naga and centaurs also worshipped the gods to some degree. Nothing ever said that the Six Gods were ever restricted to human followers.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Need I remind you all that Balthazar is one of the Gods that took down Abaddon, and what do we get? This overgrown Norn potato?

    https://puu.sh/xG6b2/32b029300f.png

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Gandara).jpg
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Ascalon).jpg
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar.png
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Balthazar.jpg

    The similarity is uncanny. It's almost as if they used that statue and art as a reference for how to design Balthazar!

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Look at this video:

    All of these were Dervish Avatars of the Gods.
    And the armor skin we got are these.

    https://puu.sh/xGh1Q/b807eaca50.png
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish

    Physical embodiment of God. Which mean this form is his real form

    No. Physical embodiment means a representation. An avatar.

    Not the real deal.

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be.

    You should look at timestamps before you insult others.

    I haven't been defending any story in this thread. I defended the model design. Two very different things.

    I haven't actually finished PoF, only about 2/3rds through it atm. But so far I've not seen much in the main storyline to be considered "garbage". Minor lines with lore issues, sure, and a questionable choice on PC's part, but not garbage story. I'll see how things fair after The Departing though.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Harper.4173Harper.4173 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

    killed off a God. An epic one too!

    That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

    I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

    'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

    Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

    People don't seem to understand why we're complaining about "muh Balthazar" - the points are these.

    1. It doesn't seem plausible - how he became a generic villain - and a very stereotypical one - in no time. I wanted to see a more complex story line - something along the line of a complex anti-hero that's pushed to do what he does by a set of events - someone you can sympathize with perhaps, someone that's not one dimensional.
    2. It was poorly done - the way we kill him. We basically FIGHT him the entire time and overwhelm him. He's the god of war. A clever story would have had us circumvent his strength perhaps and beat him in a different, clever way. Or at least have something more plausible happen. How would I have done it?

    Balthazar kills us - we come back to life - he doesn't know. We take the sword from Rytlock. As he fights Kralkatorric to a near stalemate and he's about to kill the dragon we surprise him, ambushing him in the chaos of him fighting the dragon and his troops fighting the undead managing to fatally injure him with the sword he imbued with his own magic in the mists. He turns to us prepared to the PC in disbelief before getting ready to once again slay us but the dragon seizes this opportunity and fells the god, taking its magic for itself.

    Why is this better in my opinion?

    • because you still technically "kill" the god but do it in a more subtle and not so overpowered way that makes any immersion go away.
    • it makes Kralk a more active threat and shows him up - building him up more as the main antagonist of LS4
    • functionally it does all of the things their ending did - we're still "godslayer", kralk still has the magic he takes from Balthazar.
  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    https://puu.sh/xGhsM/1c53d0fab0.png
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

    Excuse me Konnig
    IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT LYSSA TOOK IT

    Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

    Fixing it.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    https://puu.sh/xGi5c/3e04fb76d2.png
    "It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colours of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings."

    Totally humanoid.

    A human with wings, yes. And not even physical wings at that, otherwise the ocean wouldn't be the "physical manifestation" of his "blue wings" - this would imply ethereal wings, like we see on the Margonite Paragons in GW1.

    On you quoting Dwayna and Lyssa - I find it funny you go to a single source and proclaim it to be the end all be all. Want them to show humanoid appearance? Look at ANY statue or mural depiction of them.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    https://puu.sh/xG5xu/d3fb7de496.png really though Konnig.

    And what does my ancient comment about the globe in the Chantry of Secrets have to do with any of this conversation? Is it about how the gods came to the world of Tyria as gods? Well, humans came from the same place in the Mists.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Also, there is that lore fact where of the Forgotten:

    "Human legends state that the Forgotten were originally brought to Tyria by the Six Gods to serve as the world's custodians during the gods' reforming of the planet, though this has been called into question due to the true history of the gods being revealed. Human records also say that the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE, though whether this refers to the world or the continent is unknown."

    The Forgotten are serpentine worshipers of the Six God. They are not even Humanoid. Yet here you are insisting that ANet did justice to Balthazar. No, they did not. These Gods brought a completely different creature to human beings as well.

    I fail to see what this has to do with anything? Naga and centaurs also worshipped the gods to some degree. Nothing ever said that the Six Gods were ever restricted to human followers.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Need I remind you all that Balthazar is one of the Gods that took down Abaddon, and what do we get? This overgrown Norn potato?

    https://puu.sh/xG6b2/32b029300f.png

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Gandara).jpg
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Ascalon).jpg
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar.png
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Balthazar.jpg

    The similarity is uncanny. It's almost as if they used that statue and art as a reference for how to design Balthazar!

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Look at this video:

    All of these were Dervish Avatars of the Gods.
    And the armor skin we got are these.

    https://puu.sh/xGh1Q/b807eaca50.png
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish

    Physical embodiment of God. Which mean this form is his real form

    No. Physical embodiment means a representation. An avatar.

    Not the real deal.

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be.

    You should look at timestamps before you insult others.

    I haven't been defending any story in this thread. I defended the model design. Two very different things.

    I haven't actually finished PoF, only about 2/3rds through it atm. But so far I've not seen much in the main storyline to be considered "garbage". Minor lines with lore issues, sure, and a questionable choice on PC's part, but not garbage story. I'll see how things fair after The Departing though.

    And I've seen the whole story, it is utter garbage.

  • @Harper.4173 said:

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @MVP.7961 said:
    I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

    There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

    Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

    There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.

    They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

    And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

    But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

    Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

    killed off a God. An epic one too!

    That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

    I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

    'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

    Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

    People don't seem to understand why we're complaining about "muh Balthazar" - the points are these.

    1. It doesn't seem plausible - how he became a generic villain - and a very stereotypical one - in no time. I wanted to see a more complex story line - something along the line of a complex anti-hero that's pushed to do what he does by a set of events - someone you can sympathize with perhaps, someone that's not one dimensional.
    2. It was poorly done - the way we kill him. We basically FIGHT him the entire time and overwhelm him. He's the god of war. A clever story would have had us circumvent his strength perhaps and beat him in a different, clever way. Or at least have something more plausible happen. How would I have done it?

    Balthazar kills us - we come back to life - he doesn't know. We take the sword from Rytlock. As he fights Kralkatorric to a near stalemate and he's about to kill the dragon we surprise him, ambushing him in the chaos of him fighting the dragon and his troops fighting the undead managing to fatally injure him with the sword he imbued with his own magic in the mists. He turns to us prepared to the PC in disbelief before getting ready to once again slay us but the dragon seizes this opportunity and fells the god, taking its magic for itself.

    Why is this better in my opinion?

    • because you still technically "kill" the god but do it in a more subtle and not so overpowered way that makes any immersion go away.
    • it makes Kralk a more active threat and shows him up - building him up more as the main antagonist of LS4
    • functionally it does all of the things their ending did - we're still "godslayer", kralk still has the magic he takes from Balthazar.

    Exactly, the story's execution was so poor, moreover they made Balthazar some angry man who stubbed his little toe on a table's edge. It is absolutely ridiculous, and ArenaNet has seriously dropped its quality in story writing.

    It is, once again, garbage.

  • @Alasia.9502 said:
    And I've seen the whole story, it is utter garbage.

    I have now, and I wholeheartedly disagree with you. But this is where opinions come in. It has its faults, yes, but most of them are pretty minor ones.

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    Exactly, the story's execution was so poor, moreover they made Balthazar some angry man who stubbed his little toe on a table's edge. It is absolutely ridiculous, and ArenaNet has seriously dropped its quality in story writing.

    It is, once again, garbage.

    Balthazar was always prone to anger though:

    When the gods walked Tyria a thousand years ago, the Ritualist Kaolai, an old man even then, challenged Balthazar to a game of Nui in exchange for sparing a village that had offended the god through some long-forgotten breach of etiquette. Balthazar laughingly accepted and the game began. Seven days later it ended with Kaolai the winner; the villagers were spared. But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaolai

    Just one example.

    They used that pre-established anger to make him an Abaddon 2.0, but they did so in a rather believable manner. Especially since the other gods' immediately stripped him of powers and imprisoned him, rather than letting him calm down first (or at least, that's the implication).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Thalador.4218Thalador.4218 Member ✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    There was nothing believable in it. Yes, Balthazar, like all the other gods of the Six, is flawed just like the Greek gods were. They aren't perfect, they have many mortal urges and feelings: Lyssa's grief over leaving behind Wren, Dwayna's moment of weakness and love when conceiving Grenth with Malchor, Balthazar's fury when thinking his opponent won by cheating, etc.

    Balthazar has a very troubled and violent past with a family where at least one parent was murdered and a demonic half-brother whose sole purpose is to defeat him and supplant him; a sibling who is his vile shadow and mirrors the dark side of war (destruction, slaughter) and combat (treason, treachery, betrayal, deceit, dirty tricks). With that in mind it's understandable that he has some anger issues, but as it was seen in Kaolai's case, he made amends and effectively immortalized Kaolai as an ancestor who has been and is revered by Canthans for dozens of centuries. And in the established, sensible lore of Guild Wars he has become a responsible god of war and patron of warriors, fire elementalists, dervishes and others. He rallied weary soldiers against an unknown threat facing humanity with words and magic of courage and led them to victory himself, making their deeds remembered forever more. He joined Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna and Grenth against Abaddon because the latter went on the warpath and threatened humanity - their and his sacred charge - with his careless handling of magic. Afterwards he and his servants created a "paradise" for warriors and competitive people on the Battle Isles where they could blow off their violence in a controlled environment and even get a shot at becoming champions remembered by all in the Hall of Heroes. He is the Scourge of the Prideful and the Judge of the Powerful; such titles clearly indicate Balthazar wasn't interested in proving he has the biggest D in the entire multiverse and actually looks down braggarts and fools who fall to the sin of pride. A mighty god of war who knows that with power comes responsibility and judges individuals based on that. A person who is more than 2,100 years old, has wielded divinity and the godly wisdom connected to it for more than 2,100 years and would understand the reason that direct confrontation with the Elder Dragons would doom the people he and his divine friends saved and sought to nurture and protect since the very kitten beginning. And that he needs not to go rush at them and swing his mighty sword because he wants to show off - that is pride, and he has no patience and tolerance for the prideful.

    ^THAT is Balthazar. The raging, whining madman hellbent on slaughtering and burning people is NOT Balthazar. The crazed, unreasonable fool whose pride got the better of him and made him threaten his closest friends and colleagues after more than 2,100 years of working together and having a fair share of adventure they went through together and crises they solved TOGETHER is NOT Balthazar. The idiot who fought and defeated Abaddon for wanting conflict in the world and who was most likely gunning to kill the Elder Dragons as well, only to realize ~1,000 years later that he is conflict and wants to kill the ED (and is willing to murder his friends over the debate) is NOT Balthazar.

    I cannot understand how you of all people fail to see this and defend the undefendable. In this horrendous setting, Balthazar was retconned out of existence through and through. He's been merged with Menzies and set lose upon Tyria to pull off a weak Nightfall 2.0 plot and allow ANet to write the incompetent (in their view) gods out of the picture for good.

  • Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

    Fixing it.

    Wow we can't even trust official wiki about the lore of the Gods or anyone.

    A human with wings, yes. And not even physical wings at that, otherwise the ocean wouldn't be the "physical manifestation" of his "blue wings" - this would imply ethereal wings, like we see on the Margonite Paragons in GW1.

    On you quoting Dwayna and Lyssa - I find it funny you go to a single source and proclaim it to be the end all be all. Want them to show humanoid appearance? Look at ANY statue or mural depiction of them.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Gandara).jpg
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Ascalon).jpg
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar.png
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Balthazar.jpg

    The similarity is uncanny. It's almost as if they used that statue and art as a reference for how to design Balthazar!

    No. Physical embodiment means a representation. An avatar.

    Not the real deal.

    My bad, I wasn't clear about the humanoid part; I didn't mean the shape because that is clearly humanoid. Rather I meant things like the fact that Melandru had bark-like skin, Dwayna had wings and Abaddon (since you do not want to count his wings) had tentacle-like hair, and Balthazar had his fire. My point is that these Gods had NO features that indicated them being human beings. The only thing close to being 'human' was Dwayna's boobs.
    Also, if Dervishes do not copy the actual appearance of the Gods, then they will at least get one thing right which is the skin color and element of the Gods since that is easy to copy than, for example, armor.

    Also Malchor became blinded by the Gods and only felt their forms, then he sculpted those statues. We cannot say that his sculpture is an accurate representation of the Gods and their skins/looks/faces/etc.

    Which brings me back to my initial argument. That Balthazar looks too Norn for a God. All these prior examples and lore representations present a divine figure, and that is not what we got. PoF proved it. All in all, you have not proven wrong the fact that Balthazar is a figure that was worthy of more. PoF has proven to me how ANet has treated Balthazar poorly.

    I fail to see what this has to do with anything? Naga and centaurs also worshipped the gods to some degree. Nothing ever said that the Six Gods were ever restricted to human followers.

    The fact that Gods have different creatures as their followers, then it implies that the Gods were not human beings but rather benevolent beings who had a humanoid figure. If the Gods were humans these creatures would be revering human beings.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Thalador.4218 said:

    With that in mind it's understandable that he has some anger issues, but as it was seen in Kaolai's case, he made amends and effectively immortalized Kaolai as an ancestor who has been and is revered by Canthans for dozens of centuries.

    And based on Kormir's words, Balthazar was imprisoned shortly if not immediately after threatening the other gods at the council. He never had a chance to make amends but instead had 200 years of imprisonment and having his powers completely stripped. Which means they promoted a new god of war.

    That seems reasonable for brewing hatred to me.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    He joined Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna and Grenth against Abaddon because the latter went on the warpath and threatened humanity - their and his sacred charge - with his careless handling of magic.

    At that point, Abaddon was already wanting to oust the other five gods. We don't know whether the five's motivations was because Abaddon threatened humanity / Tyria, or because he threatened them, or both.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    He is the Scourge of the Prideful and the Judge of the Powerful; such titles clearly indicate Balthazar wasn't interested in proving he has the biggest D in the entire multiverse and actually looks down braggarts and fools who fall to the sin of pride.

    This part I got to agree with, but Balthazar still seems to have some of that in PoF. He was brutally looking down on the PC who has become the avatar of pridefulness and self-confidence. This was shown fairly well during The Depature, where when you get Balthazar down to 10% health the PC goes "I don't want to kill you, Balthazar" and Balthazar simply responds with "You won't." before downing the PC again.

    Of course, in a bit of irony, so has Balthazar. But that seems realistic. When you've been cutting prideful individuals down to size for over 2,900 years, you're going to get prideful and self-confident yourself.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    A mighty god of war who knows that with power comes responsibility and judges individuals based on that.

    I don't think this was ever actually presented in Balthazar - the responsibility part.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    A person who is more than 2,100 years old, has wielded divinity and the godly wisdom connected to it for more than 2,100 years and would understand the reason that direct confrontation with the Elder Dragons would doom the people he and his divine friends saved and sought to nurture and protect since the very kitten beginning. And that he needs not to go rush at them and swing his mighty sword because he wants to show off - that is pride, and he has no patience and tolerance for the prideful.

    Age does not always make one wise. Balthazar never actually shows to care about the consequences until after they were done. None that I can recall in GW1 texts at least. There's even quite telling that he loves conflict given the Fissure of Woe is a place of eternal conflict.

    While I do agree there is some discrepancy, and I do agree that he is a bit too angry sounding throughout PoF (especially in the Kormir-revealed flashbacks, I feel that these are ultimately rather minor. Balthazar may have been honorable, but he was also honorable to a fault, and nothing ever showed that he had foresight.

    His actions during PoF itself (and Season 3) is fairly well explained away by his loss of morals, which happened when the other gods stripped him of power. I feel that we're still missing some part of the lore. If the rumors / leaks that the next raid will be in the Fissure of Woe, I expect we'll get those answers then (sadly). And given dat mined weapon skins, it seems likely we'll be going to the Fissure of Woe since there's a partial weapon set modeled after Balthazar's greatsword and the Herald's hammer not accessible in PoF (as best I can tell at least).

    his closest friends and colleagues after more than 2,100 years of working together and having a fair share of adventure they went through together and crises they solved

    Er... what adventures? what crises? Aside from Abaddon, there's none that we know about. And honestly, we never really got anything about godly relations beyond Wintersday so it's not exactly accurate to say the gods were his "closest friends".

    You're starting to put a lot of fanon into it. The sad truth is that we know fairly little about the gods from the get go, so there's a bit of wiggle room - even more when you apply unreliable narrators that ArenaNet loves.

    TOGETHER is NOT Balthazar. The idiot who fought and defeated Abaddon for wanting conflict in the world and who was most likely gunning to kill the Elder Dragons as well, only to realize ~1,000 years later that he is conflict and wants to kill the ED (and is willing to murder his friends over the debate) is NOT Balthazar.

    He's been merged with Menzies and set lose upon Tyria to pull off a weak Nightfall 2.0 plot and allow ANet to write the incompetent (in their view) gods out of the picture for good.

    There were actually some minor hints in GW1 that could make Balthazar being Menzies a realistic thing. It was actually one of my side theories that Balthazar was Menzies - either pretending for the sake of continued conflict, or as a schizophrenic god.

    As to a Nightfall 2.0 plot... while Balthazar is clearly an Abaddon 2.0, and that is indeed sad and poor choice, it's not a Nightfall 2.0 plot. There's a large enough difference between the two, imo.

    I am also not convinced the gods are written out of the picture just yet. There were a few too many comments of Anet "knowing they'd return to the gods" for this to be the full extent of it. Or so I'd hope.

    @MVP.7961 said:

    Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

    Fixing it.

    Wow we can't even trust official wiki about the lore of the Gods or anyone.

    The wikis have always been fan moderated. They always will be. Text will always be written by the fans, and not ArenaNet. This means you can get vandals messing with things, or people who misremember or misinterpret and don't check their sources. This isn't anything new, and something I've been fixing since I've started editing the wikis back in .... 2007? 2008?

    @MVP.7961 said:
    My bad, I wasn't clear about the humanoid part; I didn't mean the shape because that is clearly humanoid. Rather I meant things like the fact that Melandru had bark-like skin, Dwayna had wings and Abaddon (since you do not want to count his wings) had tentacle-like hair, and Balthazar had his fire. My point is that these Gods had NO features that indicated them being human beings. The only thing close to being 'human' was Dwayna's boobs.
    Also, if Dervishes do not copy the actual appearance of the Gods, then they will at least get one thing right which is the skin color and element of the Gods since that is easy to copy than, for example, armor.

    Also Malchor became blinded by the Gods and only felt their forms, then he sculpted those statues. We cannot say that his sculpture is an accurate representation of the Gods and their skins/looks/faces/etc.

    Which brings me back to my initial argument. That Balthazar looks too Norn for a God. All these prior examples and lore representations present a divine figure, and that is not what we got. PoF proved it. All in all, you have not proven wrong the fact that Balthazar is a figure that was worthy of more. PoF has proven to me how ANet has treated Balthazar poorly.

    About Melandru (and Balthazar): Balthazar is wreathed in fire, but is not made of fire. Would it be so strange for Melandru to have bark growing on her skin? It's an affect of being divine, not being inhuman. About Abaddon: If you look at his statue, he didn't have tentacle hair. The "tentacle hair" was part of his mask.

    I would highly disagree that they have "no features that indicated them being human beings". Just look at the statues. They are fully human except for some extra extremities. Abaddon moreso than the rest.

    And no, Malchor only became blinded upon doing his final statue. The only god he touched physically was Dwayna, and that was after he finished her statue. It is outright stated that he rested his eyes occasionally while sculpting - just as we look at Kormir in PoF and do not go immediately blind, neither did Malchor.

    Balthazar didn't look too norn. Norn look too human. And Balthazar looks more human because he is no longer a god, a major plot point throughout S3 and PoF.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    The fact that Gods have different creatures as their followers, then it implies that the Gods were not human beings but rather benevolent beings who had a humanoid figure. If the Gods were humans these creatures would be revering human beings.

    That doesn't imply anything at all, actually. Maybe the first gods were not humans, but Balthazar, Abaddon, Grenth, Kormir, and possibly Lyssa - at least - all were mortals to ascended into godhood. So they had to be something before they were a god. Given their looks, they were most likely humans who ascended into godhood, like Kormir.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ScottBroChill.3254ScottBroChill.3254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    If the gods were human, than how did they create half-human hybrids with other humans like with grenth and menzies (i think menzies). If they were human, they would make purely human offspring. Balthazar was not human. If he were, he would have shrunk to human size when stripped of his power and probably would have died because he was way too old.

    This may be a stupid thing to say, but just throwing out some thoughts.

  • Nothing ever called Grenth or Menzies a half-human hybrid. Grenth was called a half-god, which is accurate given he had one parent who was a god. Menzies was only ever called Balthazar's half-brother, no species or even mortality ever hinted or stated. More accurately: if Dwayna wasn't an elevated human, how did she give birth to a child with a human? Unless it was her power as goddess of life, genetics would indicate she has DNA close enough to human to have a hyrbid, sterile, offspring. I guess the answer would be to find out if Grenth can have kids.

    Balthazar was shrunk, based on that cinematic, and he did seem aged but likely had enough divinity in him (given he reignited Sohothin with a snap of his fingers we know he had some just not enough to break free) to slow or prevent aging.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Alasia.9502Alasia.9502 Member ✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    And I've seen the whole story, it is utter garbage.

    I have now, and I wholeheartedly disagree with you. But this is where opinions come in. It has its faults, yes, but most of them are pretty minor ones.

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    Exactly, the story's execution was so poor, moreover they made Balthazar some angry man who stubbed his little toe on a table's edge. It is absolutely ridiculous, and ArenaNet has seriously dropped its quality in story writing.

    It is, once again, garbage.

    Balthazar was always prone to anger though:

    When the gods walked Tyria a thousand years ago, the Ritualist Kaolai, an old man even then, challenged Balthazar to a game of Nui in exchange for sparing a village that had offended the god through some long-forgotten breach of etiquette. Balthazar laughingly accepted and the game began. Seven days later it ended with Kaolai the winner; the villagers were spared. But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaolai

    Just one example.

    They used that pre-established anger to make him an Abaddon 2.0, but they did so in a rather believable manner. Especially since the other gods' immediately stripped him of powers and imprisoned him, rather than letting him calm down first (or at least, that's the implication).

    Sir, we are all exchanging our opinions and points of views here.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Thalador.4218 said:

    With that in mind it's understandable that he has some anger issues, but as it was seen in Kaolai's case, he made amends and effectively immortalized Kaolai as an ancestor who has been and is revered by Canthans for dozens of centuries.

    And based on Kormir's words, Balthazar was imprisoned shortly if not immediately after threatening the other gods at the council. He never had a chance to make amends but instead had 200 years of imprisonment and having his powers completely stripped. Which means they promoted a new god of war.

    That seems reasonable for brewing hatred to me.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    He joined Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna and Grenth against Abaddon because the latter went on the warpath and threatened humanity - their and his sacred charge - with his careless handling of magic.

    At that point, Abaddon was already wanting to oust the other five gods. We don't know whether the five's motivations was because Abaddon threatened humanity / Tyria, or because he threatened them, or both.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    He is the Scourge of the Prideful and the Judge of the Powerful; such titles clearly indicate Balthazar wasn't interested in proving he has the biggest D in the entire multiverse and actually looks down braggarts and fools who fall to the sin of pride.

    This part I got to agree with, but Balthazar still seems to have some of that in PoF. He was brutally looking down on the PC who has become the avatar of pridefulness and self-confidence. This was shown fairly well during The Depature, where when you get Balthazar down to 10% health the PC goes "I don't want to kill you, Balthazar" and Balthazar simply responds with "You won't." before downing the PC again.

    Of course, in a bit of irony, so has Balthazar. But that seems realistic. When you've been cutting prideful individuals down to size for over 2,900 years, you're going to get prideful and self-confident yourself.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    A mighty god of war who knows that with power comes responsibility and judges individuals based on that.

    I don't think this was ever actually presented in Balthazar - the responsibility part.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    A person who is more than 2,100 years old, has wielded divinity and the godly wisdom connected to it for more than 2,100 years and would understand the reason that direct confrontation with the Elder Dragons would doom the people he and his divine friends saved and sought to nurture and protect since the very kitten beginning. And that he needs not to go rush at them and swing his mighty sword because he wants to show off - that is pride, and he has no patience and tolerance for the prideful.

    Age does not always make one wise. Balthazar never actually shows to care about the consequences until after they were done. None that I can recall in GW1 texts at least. There's even quite telling that he loves conflict given the Fissure of Woe is a place of eternal conflict.

    While I do agree there is some discrepancy, and I do agree that he is a bit too angry sounding throughout PoF (especially in the Kormir-revealed flashbacks, I feel that these are ultimately rather minor. Balthazar may have been honorable, but he was also honorable to a fault, and nothing ever showed that he had foresight.

    His actions during PoF itself (and Season 3) is fairly well explained away by his loss of morals, which happened when the other gods stripped him of power. I feel that we're still missing some part of the lore. If the rumors / leaks that the next raid will be in the Fissure of Woe, I expect we'll get those answers then (sadly). And given dat mined weapon skins, it seems likely we'll be going to the Fissure of Woe since there's a partial weapon set modeled after Balthazar's greatsword and the Herald's hammer not accessible in PoF (as best I can tell at least).

    his closest friends and colleagues after more than 2,100 years of working together and having a fair share of adventure they went through together and crises they solved

    Er... what adventures? what crises? Aside from Abaddon, there's none that we know about. And honestly, we never really got anything about godly relations beyond Wintersday so it's not exactly accurate to say the gods were his "closest friends".

    You're starting to put a lot of fanon into it. The sad truth is that we know fairly little about the gods from the get go, so there's a bit of wiggle room - even more when you apply unreliable narrators that ArenaNet loves.

    TOGETHER is NOT Balthazar. The idiot who fought and defeated Abaddon for wanting conflict in the world and who was most likely gunning to kill the Elder Dragons as well, only to realize ~1,000 years later that he is conflict and wants to kill the ED (and is willing to murder his friends over the debate) is NOT Balthazar.

    He's been merged with Menzies and set lose upon Tyria to pull off a weak Nightfall 2.0 plot and allow ANet to write the incompetent (in their view) gods out of the picture for good.

    There were actually some minor hints in GW1 that could make Balthazar being Menzies a realistic thing. It was actually one of my side theories that Balthazar was Menzies - either pretending for the sake of continued conflict, or as a schizophrenic god.

    As to a Nightfall 2.0 plot... while Balthazar is clearly an Abaddon 2.0, and that is indeed sad and poor choice, it's not a Nightfall 2.0 plot. There's a large enough difference between the two, imo.

    I am also not convinced the gods are written out of the picture just yet. There were a few too many comments of Anet "knowing they'd return to the gods" for this to be the full extent of it. Or so I'd hope.

    @MVP.7961 said:

    Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

    Fixing it.

    Wow we can't even trust official wiki about the lore of the Gods or anyone.

    The wikis have always been fan moderated. They always will be. Text will always be written by the fans, and not ArenaNet. This means you can get vandals messing with things, or people who misremember or misinterpret and don't check their sources. This isn't anything new, and something I've been fixing since I've started editing the wikis back in .... 2007? 2008?

    @MVP.7961 said:
    My bad, I wasn't clear about the humanoid part; I didn't mean the shape because that is clearly humanoid. Rather I meant things like the fact that Melandru had bark-like skin, Dwayna had wings and Abaddon (since you do not want to count his wings) had tentacle-like hair, and Balthazar had his fire. My point is that these Gods had NO features that indicated them being human beings. The only thing close to being 'human' was Dwayna's boobs.
    Also, if Dervishes do not copy the actual appearance of the Gods, then they will at least get one thing right which is the skin color and element of the Gods since that is easy to copy than, for example, armor.

    Also Malchor became blinded by the Gods and only felt their forms, then he sculpted those statues. We cannot say that his sculpture is an accurate representation of the Gods and their skins/looks/faces/etc.

    Which brings me back to my initial argument. That Balthazar looks too Norn for a God. All these prior examples and lore representations present a divine figure, and that is not what we got. PoF proved it. All in all, you have not proven wrong the fact that Balthazar is a figure that was worthy of more. PoF has proven to me how ANet has treated Balthazar poorly.

    About Melandru (and Balthazar): Balthazar is wreathed in fire, but is not made of fire. Would it be so strange for Melandru to have bark growing on her skin? It's an affect of being divine, not being inhuman. About Abaddon: If you look at his statue, he didn't have tentacle hair. The "tentacle hair" was part of his mask.

    I would highly disagree that they have "no features that indicated them being human beings". Just look at the statues. They are fully human except for some extra extremities. Abaddon moreso than the rest.

    And no, Malchor only became blinded upon doing his final statue. The only god he touched physically was Dwayna, and that was after he finished her statue. It is outright stated that he rested his eyes occasionally while sculpting - just as we look at Kormir in PoF and do not go immediately blind, neither did Malchor.

    Balthazar didn't look too norn. Norn look too human. And Balthazar looks more human because he is no longer a god, a major plot point throughout S3 and PoF.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    The fact that Gods have different creatures as their followers, then it implies that the Gods were not human beings but rather benevolent beings who had a humanoid figure. If the Gods were humans these creatures would be revering human beings.

    That doesn't imply anything at all, actually. Maybe the first gods were not humans, but Balthazar, Abaddon, Grenth, Kormir, and possibly Lyssa - at least - all were mortals to ascended into godhood. So they had to be something before they were a god. Given their looks, they were most likely humans who ascended into godhood, like Kormir.

    You are contradicting yourself. How can you with full certainty say they are human beings when you yourself said that no one knows of their origins? I for one support the notion that they are no humans but just beings who have a humanoid figure.

  • Kenagin.3529Kenagin.3529 Member ✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    And I've seen the whole story, it is utter garbage.

    I have now, and I wholeheartedly disagree with you. But this is where opinions come in. It has its faults, yes, but most of them are pretty minor ones.

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    Exactly, the story's execution was so poor, moreover they made Balthazar some angry man who stubbed his little toe on a table's edge. It is absolutely ridiculous, and ArenaNet has seriously dropped its quality in story writing.

    It is, once again, garbage.

    Balthazar was always prone to anger though:

    When the gods walked Tyria a thousand years ago, the Ritualist Kaolai, an old man even then, challenged Balthazar to a game of Nui in exchange for sparing a village that had offended the god through some long-forgotten breach of etiquette. Balthazar laughingly accepted and the game began. Seven days later it ended with Kaolai the winner; the villagers were spared. But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaolai

    Just one example.

    They used that pre-established anger to make him an Abaddon 2.0, but they did so in a rather believable manner. Especially since the other gods' immediately stripped him of powers and imprisoned him, rather than letting him calm down first (or at least, that's the implication).

    Sir, we are all exchanging our opinions and points of views here.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Thalador.4218 said:

    With that in mind it's understandable that he has some anger issues, but as it was seen in Kaolai's case, he made amends and effectively immortalized Kaolai as an ancestor who has been and is revered by Canthans for dozens of centuries.

    And based on Kormir's words, Balthazar was imprisoned shortly if not immediately after threatening the other gods at the council. He never had a chance to make amends but instead had 200 years of imprisonment and having his powers completely stripped. Which means they promoted a new god of war.

    That seems reasonable for brewing hatred to me.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    He joined Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna and Grenth against Abaddon because the latter went on the warpath and threatened humanity - their and his sacred charge - with his careless handling of magic.

    At that point, Abaddon was already wanting to oust the other five gods. We don't know whether the five's motivations was because Abaddon threatened humanity / Tyria, or because he threatened them, or both.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    He is the Scourge of the Prideful and the Judge of the Powerful; such titles clearly indicate Balthazar wasn't interested in proving he has the biggest D in the entire multiverse and actually looks down braggarts and fools who fall to the sin of pride.

    This part I got to agree with, but Balthazar still seems to have some of that in PoF. He was brutally looking down on the PC who has become the avatar of pridefulness and self-confidence. This was shown fairly well during The Depature, where when you get Balthazar down to 10% health the PC goes "I don't want to kill you, Balthazar" and Balthazar simply responds with "You won't." before downing the PC again.

    Of course, in a bit of irony, so has Balthazar. But that seems realistic. When you've been cutting prideful individuals down to size for over 2,900 years, you're going to get prideful and self-confident yourself.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    A mighty god of war who knows that with power comes responsibility and judges individuals based on that.

    I don't think this was ever actually presented in Balthazar - the responsibility part.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    A person who is more than 2,100 years old, has wielded divinity and the godly wisdom connected to it for more than 2,100 years and would understand the reason that direct confrontation with the Elder Dragons would doom the people he and his divine friends saved and sought to nurture and protect since the very kitten beginning. And that he needs not to go rush at them and swing his mighty sword because he wants to show off - that is pride, and he has no patience and tolerance for the prideful.

    Age does not always make one wise. Balthazar never actually shows to care about the consequences until after they were done. None that I can recall in GW1 texts at least. There's even quite telling that he loves conflict given the Fissure of Woe is a place of eternal conflict.

    While I do agree there is some discrepancy, and I do agree that he is a bit too angry sounding throughout PoF (especially in the Kormir-revealed flashbacks, I feel that these are ultimately rather minor. Balthazar may have been honorable, but he was also honorable to a fault, and nothing ever showed that he had foresight.

    His actions during PoF itself (and Season 3) is fairly well explained away by his loss of morals, which happened when the other gods stripped him of power. I feel that we're still missing some part of the lore. If the rumors / leaks that the next raid will be in the Fissure of Woe, I expect we'll get those answers then (sadly). And given dat mined weapon skins, it seems likely we'll be going to the Fissure of Woe since there's a partial weapon set modeled after Balthazar's greatsword and the Herald's hammer not accessible in PoF (as best I can tell at least).

    his closest friends and colleagues after more than 2,100 years of working together and having a fair share of adventure they went through together and crises they solved

    Er... what adventures? what crises? Aside from Abaddon, there's none that we know about. And honestly, we never really got anything about godly relations beyond Wintersday so it's not exactly accurate to say the gods were his "closest friends".

    You're starting to put a lot of fanon into it. The sad truth is that we know fairly little about the gods from the get go, so there's a bit of wiggle room - even more when you apply unreliable narrators that ArenaNet loves.

    TOGETHER is NOT Balthazar. The idiot who fought and defeated Abaddon for wanting conflict in the world and who was most likely gunning to kill the Elder Dragons as well, only to realize ~1,000 years later that he is conflict and wants to kill the ED (and is willing to murder his friends over the debate) is NOT Balthazar.

    He's been merged with Menzies and set lose upon Tyria to pull off a weak Nightfall 2.0 plot and allow ANet to write the incompetent (in their view) gods out of the picture for good.

    There were actually some minor hints in GW1 that could make Balthazar being Menzies a realistic thing. It was actually one of my side theories that Balthazar was Menzies - either pretending for the sake of continued conflict, or as a schizophrenic god.

    As to a Nightfall 2.0 plot... while Balthazar is clearly an Abaddon 2.0, and that is indeed sad and poor choice, it's not a Nightfall 2.0 plot. There's a large enough difference between the two, imo.

    I am also not convinced the gods are written out of the picture just yet. There were a few too many comments of Anet "knowing they'd return to the gods" for this to be the full extent of it. Or so I'd hope.

    @MVP.7961 said:

    Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

    Fixing it.

    Wow we can't even trust official wiki about the lore of the Gods or anyone.

    The wikis have always been fan moderated. They always will be. Text will always be written by the fans, and not ArenaNet. This means you can get vandals messing with things, or people who misremember or misinterpret and don't check their sources. This isn't anything new, and something I've been fixing since I've started editing the wikis back in .... 2007? 2008?

    @MVP.7961 said:
    My bad, I wasn't clear about the humanoid part; I didn't mean the shape because that is clearly humanoid. Rather I meant things like the fact that Melandru had bark-like skin, Dwayna had wings and Abaddon (since you do not want to count his wings) had tentacle-like hair, and Balthazar had his fire. My point is that these Gods had NO features that indicated them being human beings. The only thing close to being 'human' was Dwayna's boobs.
    Also, if Dervishes do not copy the actual appearance of the Gods, then they will at least get one thing right which is the skin color and element of the Gods since that is easy to copy than, for example, armor.

    Also Malchor became blinded by the Gods and only felt their forms, then he sculpted those statues. We cannot say that his sculpture is an accurate representation of the Gods and their skins/looks/faces/etc.

    Which brings me back to my initial argument. That Balthazar looks too Norn for a God. All these prior examples and lore representations present a divine figure, and that is not what we got. PoF proved it. All in all, you have not proven wrong the fact that Balthazar is a figure that was worthy of more. PoF has proven to me how ANet has treated Balthazar poorly.

    About Melandru (and Balthazar): Balthazar is wreathed in fire, but is not made of fire. Would it be so strange for Melandru to have bark growing on her skin? It's an affect of being divine, not being inhuman. About Abaddon: If you look at his statue, he didn't have tentacle hair. The "tentacle hair" was part of his mask.

    I would highly disagree that they have "no features that indicated them being human beings". Just look at the statues. They are fully human except for some extra extremities. Abaddon moreso than the rest.

    And no, Malchor only became blinded upon doing his final statue. The only god he touched physically was Dwayna, and that was after he finished her statue. It is outright stated that he rested his eyes occasionally while sculpting - just as we look at Kormir in PoF and do not go immediately blind, neither did Malchor.

    Balthazar didn't look too norn. Norn look too human. And Balthazar looks more human because he is no longer a god, a major plot point throughout S3 and PoF.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    The fact that Gods have different creatures as their followers, then it implies that the Gods were not human beings but rather benevolent beings who had a humanoid figure. If the Gods were humans these creatures would be revering human beings.

    That doesn't imply anything at all, actually. Maybe the first gods were not humans, but Balthazar, Abaddon, Grenth, Kormir, and possibly Lyssa - at least - all were mortals to ascended into godhood. So they had to be something before they were a god. Given their looks, they were most likely humans who ascended into godhood, like Kormir.

    You are contradicting yourself. How can you with full certainty say they are human beings when you yourself said that no one knows of their origins? I for one support the notion that they are no humans but just beings who have a humanoid figure.

    You should read a bit better. Balthazar, Abaddon, Grenth, Kormir are mortals (most likely human) that have ascended to godhood. Were not sure of Dwayna and Lyssa. Dwayna had a child (Grenth) with a sculptor (Malchor being most logical) so she has to be close to human. It wouldn't make sense that Lyssa would be a complete other race. After all they are the Human Gods, and can as far as we know only be usurped by humans or humanlike entities.

  • Konnig, until you provide evidence of their humanity from lore, there is no reason for me to deem your words to be correct as the lore is showing the opposite with Gods having no features that indicated them being human beings.

    And I emphasize on the poor work ANet has done once again.

  • Kenagin.3529Kenagin.3529 Member ✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    We can't really proof humanity, but there are some indications.

    Melandru being the oldest of them all. For me indicating that it's likely they all have usurped someone. (Or Melandru and Abbadon's unknown predecessor were first and the others their children)

    "Next came the goddess of nature. Wise Melandru, oldest of them all, made of Orr a green and flowering expanse. She urged peace with the races already present on this world, but her advice was not heeded."

    Grenth being Dwayna's son and being called the first god born of tyria. It's an indication that his father has to be human. And thus Dwayna being close to human. It's not rock solid. Dwayna is a God after all.

    "Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow."

    Balthazar having a father.

    "Balthazar came in fire and wrath, carrying the head of his father and leading his fierce hounds, Temar and Tegon. He swept Orr with a cleansing flame."

    All quote's from this wiki page. And ingame lore. No speculation there.
    (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six")

    No doubt about the (former) humanity of Kormir.

    Lyssa's origins are unkown.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    You are contradicting yourself. How can you with full certainty say they are human beings when you yourself said that no one knows of their origins? I for one support the notion that they are no humans but just beings who have a humanoid figure.

    We may not know their origins. But we know their appearances thanks to Malchor. There is a difference between knowing a person, and knowing where they were born and when their birthday is. That's not a contradiction.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Konnig, until you provide evidence of their humanity from lore, there is no reason for me to deem your words to be correct as the lore is showing the opposite with Gods having no features that indicated them being human beings.

    And I emphasize on the poor work ANet has done once again.

    I have provided evidence. You ignore it as false. Let me quote for you then:

    "The Six Gods lived in the city of Arah among their mortal followers. Sadly, the glory of their presence was too much for human senses to take in, and their radiance blinded those who stared too long upon their visage. Yet the Six wished their people to know them, for they loved their followers a great deal. They chose one man—the sculptor, Malchor—and granted him audience. His task was to make a statue of each god, so that humans might know their creators. Malchor was called before Dwayna, and asked to take on this burden. When he saw her, Malchor fell instantly in love—and no matter the cost to himself, he could not refuse her request. One by one, Malchor recreated the visages of the gods in stone. As he did, that god would retire back to the heart of Arah, and he would see them no more—and so, he saved Dwayna for last, that he might be in her presence the longest. Malchor completed the statues, but even as he did so, his eyes failed him—his sight burned by the glory of the gods. It is said that such was his love for Dwayna that he still completed her statue, having memorized every fraction of her immortal beauty. When it was done, he asked Dwayna if she favored the image, and weeping, Dwayna allowed him to touch her face, that he might know the precision with which—even blind—he had carved her image. But then, as she knew she must, the goddess Dwayna left and returned to Arah, leaving the sculptor alone. Tormented and blind, Malchor stood upon the cliffs near Dwayna's cathedral, where her statue would forever stand. Realizing he would never again see his beloved, Malchor cast himself into the sea. The site of his death is called 'Malchor's Leap,' and each year, Orrian maidens wreath the rocks with flowers in memory of the famous sculptor and his loss."

    Edited slightly for legibility in forum formatting.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#Arah:_City_of_the_Gods_and_The_Tragedy_of_Malchor

    Eric Flannum:
    1. taring at the true face of the Gods is like staring at the sun. If you do so for long periods (not just catch a glimpse), their glory will eventually (fairly swiftly) cause you to go blind. Malchor was totally willing to do this in order to serve them; and to get to see Dwayna. Even at that, he only looked upon each God for a few moments before he went to make their statue, limiting his loss of vision as much as possible so that he could make it through to the end of his task.

    http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/14475-malchor-and-dwayna/page-2?&#entry696206

    This is outright PROOF that the statues that Malchor created are of the Six Gods' true appearances. The entire purpose of the statues was so that humans would know what the gods actually looked like. This means that Malchor's statues of Dwayna, Lyssa, Abaddon, Melandru, and Balthazar are of their actual appearance at that point in time. And they are all humanoid. The only questionable one is Grenth, really.

    Though there is the question as to which statue is the "Malchor statue". This was his statue of Abaddon (and in that statue you can clearly see a human mouth behind the mask, and if you got a look at it from behind you would see a clearly natural hairstyle beneath the "tentacle hair"), while this was his statue of Dwayna - the latter corrupted and twisted by Zhaitan so while we can see a clear humanoid appearance, how much so is not entirely known. The problem is that neither are the circular statues we see throughout Orr or DR.

    And on Dwayna bit - the fact she can give birth to a son with a human highly (albeit not definitively) shows that she is human or at least close enough to human.

    I even provided links to Tyrian depictions of Balthazar which are exceptionally close - albeit a bit abstract - to his appearance in PoF.

    On the opposite side, you've not provided anything beyond shouts and proclamations of "what should be" (which is nothing more than your opinion that is clashing with our interpretation of the gods since the days of Prophecies).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • LazerusKI.7485LazerusKI.7485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    I... don't know how to respond to this. Is there even anything to respond to? What are you trying to say, exactly? I will say this, though: have you compared the size of a norn to Balthazar, in or out of his mursaat outfit? He's three times larger than the largest norn, and that's been modest. Plus, we do know that they have magic that is different from that which is typically used on Tyria, so they aren't just "huge norn", unless you want to classify the norn as just "giant humans" (which is not an unfair assertion to make).

    I have seen Balthazar's model up close and personal. He's an oversized Norn.
    I expected more from a 'God'. Especially a God of a very significant Guild Wars race. The lore clearly states they came from the Mists along with the humans but all I see I an oversized Norn going around doing things.

    The model could have been inhumane; the model could be a fiery being in an armor. Yet we just have.. This. There was so much room for innovation and imagination here.

    It's very disappointing. The story has, imo, gone horribly downhill, and this is just another point added to its fall.

    Buck up ANet. Make a God look like a God.

    So.. you preferred the HUMAN god to be as small as a human? the problem in this analogy is not that the gods look like Norn, but that the Norn look too much like Humans. This wasn't an issue in GW1 because of their distinct culture and shapeshifting, but that culture and shapeshifting has been washed out in GW2, so the Norn look mostly like normal but bigger humans.

    No one expected the gods to look different than big humans with fancy armor and lots of magic. Dwayna is a human with blue skin, Lyssa.. well, she's covered, Balthazar just wears a giant forge as an armor, and Melandru is both shown as a dryad (humanoid tree) as well as a normal human emerging from a tree. I think they can take any shape they want, though

    imagine Balthazar, the god of fire and war...Asura sized with a squeaky voice

  • Just because a god made a kid with a human, doesn't make the god a human or previously was human. In greek mythology, zeus had half breeds with humans like hercules and perseus. So there is a distinction between god and human. In guild wars it might just be passing down and inheriting magic that makes them half-gods but who knows. Was grenth more powerful than a normal human before he ascended to god-hood? or was he in fact a different breed/species of humanoid?

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just because a god made a kid with a human, doesn't make the god a human or previously was human. In greek mythology, zeus had half breeds with humans like hercules and perseus. So there is a distinction between god and human. In guild wars it might just be passing down and inheriting magic that makes them half-gods but who knows. Was grenth more powerful than a normal human before he ascended to god-hood? or was he in fact a different breed/species of humanoid?

    Now, in most universes, you'd be right. Interbreeding between intelligent species is actually pretty common in most fictions. Except the devs have stated many times that none of the sentient races that we know of are capable of it. A human and a charr can copulate as much as they want (if that is physically possible) and yet no offspring will result, no matter the frequency or combination. And just try to imagine what that abomination would look like. So the fact that Dwayna can have a child with a mortal race, one that is human no less, strongly implies that they are at least closely related to humans if not originally human themselves. Whether or not this fact will be brought up again by characters is unclear, but I'll be eager to see what becomes of it.

  • Thalador.4218Thalador.4218 Member ✭✭
    edited September 27, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    And based on Kormir's words, Balthazar was imprisoned shortly if not immediately after threatening the other gods at the council. He never had a chance to make amends but instead had 200 years of imprisonment and having his powers completely stripped. Which means they promoted a new god of war.

    Which would be just another desecration of old lore. The gods - especially Dwayna, who's supposed to create understanding and consensus among them - fail to manage Balthazar's ridiculous hissy fit after having worked alongside him and knowing him all too well for more than 2,100 years. Even with the PoF un-Balthazar, they should know by now he would cool down and become reasonable once more.

    Then again, the real Balthazar wouldn't fly into a nonsensical, pathetic temper tantrum over not getting to fight lizards they could easily roflstomp. You know what reason I could've accepted, maybe even gotten behind? If Balthazar argued that they could win so easily and take over the dragons' power, thus saving Tyria, and he wouldn't abandon humanity to be prey for the dragons and that they are cowards for even thinking about leaving their own people for dead - the people they sought to save and defend to begin with. That would've made sense and actually been in alignment with his real character and personality. Not the prideful, power hungry madman with a superiority complex who only cares about fighting and amassing power.

    Furthermore, there's absolutely 0 information on when his abatement happened (aside from "sometime after 1075 AE but before 1330 AE"), so that's pure speculation on your part. Same with the notion that there's a new, unknown god of war now; they stripped him of his divinity and chained him without any security or ways to monitor him (I won't even touch on the subject because it is is beyond imbecilic) and that's it. Somehow now they can take away divinity and not find a vessel for it - another disgraceful disrespect to Guild Wars lore.

    On another note, most of un-Balthazar's forces from FoW as well as his worshipers (Queen Yasamin, Devona) were still insanely loyal to him. Even in HoT a furious, fiery Avatar of BALTHAZAR rises from the ruined statue of his ruined Maguuma temple. If there was another god of war in town they would've gotten the memo that un-Balthazar disgraced himself with wrath, pride and insanity and had to be replaced.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    At that point, Abaddon was already wanting to oust the other five gods. We don't know whether the five's motivations was because Abaddon threatened humanity / Tyria, or because he threatened them, or both.

    Although we know the major events in that war and a rough timeline of the preceding and subsequent events, the actual order of events is still shoddy at best and we also don't know what was Abaddon's plans with the others. He stormed Gates of Heaven maybe to drive his point through - I can't see him declaring war on all the gods (he must have known he cannot win against all Five of them ganging up on him) right off the bat. He most likely targeted Dwayna for being the "leader" and the tie-breaker and desiring a change in leadership. In any event, Balthazar joined the others who wanted peace and an end to the destructive magical conflicts then willingly withdrew himself from Tyria, clearly agreeing with the notion that their presence causes issues. THAT is the real Balthazar, of course. The PoF un-Balthazar would never have acceded to the point that his presence was a liability and danger to the "insects" (as he outright speaks of mortals (the Commander) in PoF)... why would he care who he treads on while being ALMIGHTY, CONFLICT-LOVING BALTHAZAR!

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This part I got to agree with, but Balthazar still seems to have some of that in PoF. He was brutally looking down on the PC who has become the avatar of pridefulness and self-confidence. This was shown fairly well during The Depature, where when you get Balthazar down to 10% health the PC goes "I don't want to kill you, Balthazar" and Balthazar simply responds with "You won't." before downing the PC again.

    Of course, in a bit of irony, so has Balthazar. But that seems realistic. When you've been cutting prideful individuals down to size for over 2,900 years, you're going to get prideful and self-confident yourself.

    That wasn't the point I was making. He knows full well how powerful he is and has no reason to try to prove it to anything or anyone. It doesn't mean he cannot be proud of his strength and accomplishments, but the character that was butchered to create un-Balthazar from his remains would never have flown into a fit of rage because mean Dwayna and the girls didn't give him the dragon fight he so badly wanted - not for Tyria, but for his own selfish kitten.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't think this was ever actually presented in Balthazar - the responsibility part.

    He was responsible enough to stand down and heed Dwayna's and Melandru's words of peace after helping humanity gain their footholds across their new home. He was responsible enough to side with the others against Abaddon in order to end the destruction wrought by overabundant magic. He was responsible enough to help defeat and imprison Abaddon with special chains he forged himself. He was responsible enough to depart from Tyria because their godly presence was endangering mortals and humanity specifically. He was responsible enough to establish an organization and a huge establishment for warring and glorious battles where warriors and competitive individuals could have it out without damage done to non-combatants and their environment. He was responsible enough not to wage another direct war against Abaddon that could've destroyed half the Mists probably, but bless those mortals with his favor who challenged the fallen god. He was responsible enough to open a portal to the Mists in Lion's Arch after the flooding of the Battle Isles... oh wait, that bit never happened, because it got retconned out of existence. Just like his entire, honorable and likable character.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Age does not always make one wise. Balthazar never actually shows to care about the consequences until after they were done. None that I can recall in GW1 texts at least. There's even quite telling that he loves conflict given the Fissure of Woe is a place of eternal conflict.

    While I do agree there is some discrepancy, and I do agree that he is a bit too angry sounding throughout PoF (especially in the Kormir-revealed flashbacks, I feel that these are ultimately rather minor. Balthazar may have been honorable, but he was also honorable to a fault, and nothing ever showed that he had foresight.

    It is never said that the Fissure of Woe has always belonged to Balthazar - it could have been a place of conflict since shortly after the Mists first began spawning creatures and worlds out of protomatter. Given how many gods had been deposed and succeeded already, I wouldn't be surprised if Balthazar claimed his divinity from a most probably malevolent father (I'm basing this on the idea that Balthazar brought his severed head with him, and I consider that a trophy rather than sorrow compelling him to carry the remains of his father to the new world - and if it was a trophy, then it could easily imply he was a bad guy who did the dirty deed with something dark and evil that spawned Menzies). And that means FoW has been a place of endless fighting beforehand, which only got worse after his antithesis, Menzies, appeared to dethrone Balthazar and claim his godhood.

    There are no "minor discrepancies." There are only major and colossal discrepancies as well as utter disrespect to Guild Wars.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Er... what adventures? what crises? Aside from Abaddon, there's none that we know about. And honestly, we never really got anything about godly relations beyond Wintersday so it's not exactly accurate to say the gods were his "closest friends".

    You're starting to put a lot of fanon into it. The sad truth is that we know fairly little about the gods from the get go, so there's a bit of wiggle room - even more when you apply unreliable narrators that ArenaNet loves.

    • Facing the calamity or more than likely lethal danger that made them flee a human homeworld and bring humanity to Tyria
    • Cleansing the world of leftover draconic corruption
    • Helping humanity make and carve a place for themselves in Cantha, Elona, Tyria and possibly elsewhere
    • Winning the battle against an unknown foe in 48 BE (in a year when the other gods' with Dwayna's exception were all pretty active)
    • Agreeing with Dwayna to limit magic and end the cataclysmic wars
    • Joining the others to fight and stop Abaddon
    • Helping the others in a major way to keep Abaddon subdued
    • Leaving Tyria with the others
    • Aiding the mortals who went up against Abaddon
    • And very possibly a great deal of unknown adventures and crises on the human homeworld happening before their arrival on Tyria, then on Tyria between their arrival and human landfall in Cantha in 786 BE, then in the period of 786-1 BE, then in the Mists between 0 AE and 1075 AE, then the real, apocalyptic reason for their silence and withdrawal between Kormir's ascension and now (and no, I don't accept the weak explanation of "because dragons" that is prevalent in the current setting).

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    As to a Nightfall 2.0 plot... while Balthazar is clearly an Abaddon 2.0, and that is indeed sad and poor choice, it's not a Nightfall 2.0 plot. There's a large enough difference between the two, imo.

    From my detailed thread on the failure of PoF when it comes to story & lore:

    "A rogue god who's had a falling out with his kin leads his fanatical, twisted zealots through the sandy dunes, wastelands and savannahs in order to gain power and elevate himself from his diminished state all the while ransacking and desecrating temples, committing blasphemies left and right with the end goal being to wage an apocalyptic war on the other gods and goddesses, murder them or steal their power - or both - and become the One True God. Only for him to die at the hands of the people he sought to destroy, with his powers getting absorbed by an entity he targeted and tried to kill in the first place."

    "We've got a slightly different, subpar Nightfall where we went from north to south instead of south to north in our quest to stop a mad, fallen god. We bargained with the Awakened to secure an army to fight his demonic zealots, and in the end there was no redemption for the antagonist only death and usurpation, the absorption of his power. And this is simply the plot without all the lore desecration that has been done throughout the terribly written story of Path of Fire - the ones I have thoroughly detailed above."

    • Devona / the Herald was actually Varesh 2.0 come to think of it: a once noble and proud warrior, a commander who instilled respect and loyalty in her friends and allies goes down a dark path after becoming the chosen of a fallen god. She becomes twisted and corrupted, begins slaughtering innocents and attacks holy places in her mad deity's name. Serves as a mini boss to her fallen master.
    • The protagonist gets dragged into a special, eerie place in the Mists against her/his will.

    What is this if not a rehashed, boring Nightfall-wannabe plot?

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Alasia.9502 said:
    You are contradicting yourself. How can you with full certainty say they are human beings when you yourself said that no one knows of their origins? I for one support the notion that they are no humans but just beings who have a humanoid figure.

    We may not know their origins. But we know their appearances thanks to Malchor. There is a difference between knowing a person, and knowing where they were born and when their birthday is. That's not a contradiction.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Konnig, until you provide evidence of their humanity from lore, there is no reason for me to deem your words to be correct as the lore is showing the opposite with Gods having no features that indicated them being human beings.

    And I emphasize on the poor work ANet has done once again.

    I have provided evidence. You ignore it as false. Let me quote for you then:

    "The Six Gods lived in the city of Arah among their mortal followers. Sadly, the glory of their presence was too much for human senses to take in, and their radiance blinded those who stared too long upon their visage. Yet the Six wished their people to know them, for they loved their followers a great deal. They chose one man—the sculptor, Malchor—and granted him audience. His task was to make a statue of each god, so that humans might know their creators. Malchor was called before Dwayna, and asked to take on this burden. When he saw her, Malchor fell instantly in love—and no matter the cost to himself, he could not refuse her request. One by one, Malchor recreated the visages of the gods in stone. As he did, that god would retire back to the heart of Arah, and he would see them no more—and so, he saved Dwayna for last, that he might be in her presence the longest. Malchor completed the statues, but even as he did so, his eyes failed him—his sight burned by the glory of the gods. It is said that such was his love for Dwayna that he still completed her statue, having memorized every fraction of her immortal beauty. When it was done, he asked Dwayna if she favored the image, and weeping, Dwayna allowed him to touch her face, that he might know the precision with which—even blind—he had carved her image. But then, as she knew she must, the goddess Dwayna left and returned to Arah, leaving the sculptor alone. Tormented and blind, Malchor stood upon the cliffs near Dwayna's cathedral, where her statue would forever stand. Realizing he would never again see his beloved, Malchor cast himself into the sea. The site of his death is called 'Malchor's Leap,' and each year, Orrian maidens wreath the rocks with flowers in memory of the famous sculptor and his loss."

    Edited slightly for legibility in forum formatting.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#Arah:_City_of_the_Gods_and_The_Tragedy_of_Malchor

    Eric Flannum:
    1. taring at the true face of the Gods is like staring at the sun. If you do so for long periods (not just catch a glimpse), their glory will eventually (fairly swiftly) cause you to go blind. Malchor was totally willing to do this in order to serve them; and to get to see Dwayna. Even at that, he only looked upon each God for a few moments before he went to make their statue, limiting his loss of vision as much as possible so that he could make it through to the end of his task.

    http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/14475-malchor-and-dwayna/page-2?&#entry696206

    This is outright PROOF that the statues that Malchor created are of the Six Gods' true appearances. The entire purpose of the statues was so that humans would know what the gods actually looked like. This means that Malchor's statues of Dwayna, Lyssa, Abaddon, Melandru, and Balthazar are of their actual appearance at that point in time. And they are all humanoid. The only questionable one is Grenth, really.

    Though there is the question as to which statue is the "Malchor statue". This was his statue of Abaddon (and in that statue you can clearly see a human mouth behind the mask, and if you got a look at it from behind you would see a clearly natural hairstyle beneath the "tentacle hair"), while this was his statue of Dwayna - the latter corrupted and twisted by Zhaitan so while we can see a clear humanoid appearance, how much so is not entirely known. The problem is that neither are the circular statues we see throughout Orr or DR.

    And on Dwayna bit - the fact she can give birth to a son with a human highly (albeit not definitively) shows that she is human or at least close enough to human.

    I even provided links to Tyrian depictions of Balthazar which are exceptionally close - albeit a bit abstract - to his appearance in PoF.

    On the opposite side, you've not provided anything beyond shouts and proclamations of "what should be" (which is nothing more than your opinion that is clashing with our interpretation of the gods since the days of Prophecies).

    I did not ignore them, but I didn't know the part about Malchor losing his sight only. I thought he was blinded from the first encounter and had to touch them all. Thanks for this info.

    I did not deny their humanoid look, I just said it may not be accurately sculpted. I have said in my previous posts that they do have the human SHAPE, but the features they have (which you and I already mentioned) do not belong to average human beings. For example, blue skin, wings, tentacles, bark-like skins and greyish skin. Gods true appearances with their extra bits clearly show their inhumane features, minus the skin color, which a statue cannot depict unless you decide to give it a paint job.

    The tentacles are not part of the helm. You can clearly see that and if it wasn't part of his body then they would not move at all, unless Abaddon enjoys writhing snakes for hair or he's Medusa, nor would the animators have bothered with Abaddon's head in the Gemstone like Balthazar's armor skin's headpiece. The same reason why Malchor would not have bothered making some of them look like they were moving.

    There is a reason why I have been insistently saying a human-like shape only. If Dwayna was 100% human then Grenth wouldn't be called a half-God. It also wouldn't affect his ability of obtaining a full on Godly power.
    Abaddon got his powers from another God but nothing says he was a human being, just how he got the power.
    They are the creators but nothing says they themselves are human beings.

    I have given you proof and logics, and what you post only shows that they are not human beings. You ignore all of these lore facts in favor of their physical appearance. That's like Zeus is a human and Hercules was never a half-God.
    When it's written in lore that these are human beings who got their powers somehow, and it effects them to the point of physically changing their appearances, then we have nothing else to say. We are just repeating ourselves right now.
    I've stated my points and you've stated yours. There is nothing else left to add to it until the lore official says these are human beings and not Gods which has not been done yet. We'll have to agree to disagree.

  • Harper.4173Harper.4173 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And based on Kormir's words, Balthazar was imprisoned shortly if not immediately after threatening the other gods at the council. He never had a chance to make amends but instead had 200 years of imprisonment and having his powers completely stripped. Which means they promoted a new god of war.

    And when do you think this actually took place? I'm assuming after GW1?

  • There is no indication whatsoever that any new god was promoted. It could have happened but it's not a fact at all. Also it wouldn't make much sense to not mention it, then again, if the gods really left for good it doesn't matter anyway.

  • Something had to have happened to Balthazar's original divine power, however. And that remains unanswered.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rognik.2579 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just because a god made a kid with a human, doesn't make the god a human or previously was human. In greek mythology, zeus had half breeds with humans like hercules and perseus. So there is a distinction between god and human. In guild wars it might just be passing down and inheriting magic that makes them half-gods but who knows. Was grenth more powerful than a normal human before he ascended to god-hood? or was he in fact a different breed/species of humanoid?

    Now, in most universes, you'd be right. Interbreeding between intelligent species is actually pretty common in most fictions. Except the devs have stated many times that none of the sentient races that we know of are capable of it. A human and a charr can copulate as much as they want (if that is physically possible) and yet no offspring will result, no matter the frequency or combination. And just try to imagine what that abomination would look like. So the fact that Dwayna can have a child with a mortal race, one that is human no less, strongly implies that they are at least closely related to humans if not originally human themselves. Whether or not this fact will be brought up again by characters is unclear, but I'll be eager to see what becomes of it.

    Unless, as I think Konig hinted at, it's part of Dwayna's powers that she can have a child with whoever she pleases. Genetics, shemetics, she's a god.

    Regardless, to harken back to the main topic: The human-like appearance of the gods has been established back in the beginning of the franchise. Balthazar appearing human-like should come as no surprise.

  • Have you seen the movie Gods of Egypt? The Egyptian gods were twice as big as their human subjects! Has anyone seen the movie Cat People? Makes you think twice about the Norn and their animal spirit ascendance to human form.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Unless, as I think Konig hinted at, it's part of Dwayna's powers that she can have a child with whoever she pleases. Genetics, shemetics, she's a god.

    This is also possible, but as Dwayna being Grenth's mother has been relegated to a few (obscure) myths, and we don't even talk about his father, we're no closer to an answer on that front. Unless she comes back, or someone else in the know suddenly reveals it, this is just one of those things we'll have to forever ponder.

  • @Harper.4173 said:
    Balthazar kills us - we come back to life - he doesn't know. We take the sword from Rytlock. As he fights Kralkatorric to a near stalemate and he's about to kill the dragon we surprise him, ambushing him in the chaos of him fighting the dragon and his troops fighting the undead managing to fatally injure him with the sword he imbued with his own magic in the mists. He turns to us prepared to the PC in disbelief before getting ready to once again slay us but the dragon seizes this opportunity and fells the god, taking its magic for itself.

    Why is this better in my opinion?

    • because you still technically "kill" the god but do it in a more subtle and not so overpowered way that makes any immersion go away.
    • it makes Kralk a more active threat and shows him up - building him up more as the main antagonist of LS4
    • functionally it does all of the things their ending did - we're still "godslayer", kralk still has the magic he takes from Balthazar.

    I don't know what game you played but what happened is better than what you cooked up. When I disrupted the machine, Kral started bombarding crystal to both on Balthazar and me effectively weakened Balthazar for the final phase of the fight. Then Aurene dealt the final blow and took Balt's magic. With Balth's magic, AneraNet sets up Aurene as a possible antagonist for LS4. It seems to me, you were not paying attention.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • **Random thoughts I've had after reading the whole thread, I'll try to remember everything. **

    • I didn't like the look of Balthazar, but I can accept that if that's not his true look since he was stripped of his godhood.

    • Kormir is the only human worshiped god that we know of that's 100% human. Grenth is 50% human. We know some of the others were "mortals". A god has a child with a human, and the 5 invite someone that absorbed a fallen god's power to join them that happened to be human. The human worshiped gods brought humanity to Tyria, that doesn't mean they were human. They could very well be something other than human, and alot of the statues and text say they share both human and non human traits, which makes sense if "humans" worship them. They show them with claws, wings, bark, and other non-human features but a humanoid body structure.

    • Who says the "beings" before the original 6 were gods? They could have just been powerful beings that their power was absorbed after being defeated. The original 6 didn't become gods until they brought the humans to tyria and started becoming worshiped anyway. If they had those powers before hand and weren't worshiped, they were just powerful beings just like Arachnia the fallen spider god and the un-named powerful beings before them.

    • With above in mind. The Wiki says and I'd like to think it's common knowledge that Dhumm was the god of Death. But what I'm interested in was he worshiped by the humans before Grenth and the Seven overtook him, Or did he just have the power of Death and domain? I don't ever recall seeing statues of Dhumm. Maybe he was a known powerful being just not part of the "team" yet. Maybe the "5" at the time wanted to have control of the "Death powers" and that's when Grenth came in since Dhumm didn't tolerated neither resurrections nor the existence of the undead, and he hunted down all those who escaped death, having promised "death undeniable.". He took Dhumm's powers, locked him up, and joined the 5, now 6. So pretty much, is there any confirmation he was a worshiped god part of the team of gods, or was he his own powerful being with those powers?

    • The way I see it is PoF was a Nightfall 2.0 but the "Nightfall" actually happened in Tyria. Gw1, Abbadon didn' make it to Tyria just yet.

    • It says Abaddon had Blue wings, I don't know how you just assume they're "ethereal" like "the golden paragon ones". You're adding text and it doesn't make sense. Stop.

  • I don't know about you, but I think Balthazar was portrayed beautifully. That part where he quite literally kills you, was 10/10, brutal and efficient - definitely felt like my character got murdered by a straight up god.

  • Athrenn.9468Athrenn.9468 Member ✭✭✭

    See, here's the part that everyone's missing... probably because it's buried in achievements and Kormir forgot to include it in her sales pitch to Kasmeer & Co.

    There's a book written by some follower of Kormir entitled The Garden of the Gods. Frankly, it was probably quite a foolish mistake not to mention the part about leaving TEMPORARILY to secure a new home for their followers, but there you have it.

    After long hours of prayer, the goddess of truth herself has at last revealed the answers I sought. Praise Kormir! In her name, I will share the reasons behind our gods' withdrawal from this world.

    And make no mistake: the gods have withdrawn. Prayers go unanswered, Ascension fails. But do not despair, or ages: our gods still love us, and it is that love that drove them to leave.

    When the gods first brought humanity to this world, they were planting a garden; we were the seeds, with Tyria the fertile soil in which we would thrive.

    Like all gardens, it would experience and demonstrate life, death, challenge, order, growth, and beauty as it matured from carefully arranged rows of potential into dynamic, evolving reality.

    But there was a blight below the soil the gardeners could not prepare for; a predatory threat that would consume both the garden and the nutrients that sustained it: the Elder Dragons.

    When the dragons rose, the gods realized a terrible truth: any effort to save the garden would instead destroy it... or them. If humanity was to endure under their guidance, it could not be here.

    Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!

    Does anyone else think that the writers are just trying to tie up as many loose ends as possible so that they can end the story in a few years and move on to Guild Wars 3 on another world?

  • @Athrenn.9468 said:
    See, here's the part that everyone's missing... probably because it's buried in achievements and Kormir forgot to include it in her sales pitch to Kasmeer & Co.

    There's a book written by some follower of Kormir entitled The Garden of the Gods. Frankly, it was probably quite a foolish mistake not to mention the part about leaving TEMPORARILY to secure a new home for their followers, but there you have it.

    After long hours of prayer, the goddess of truth herself has at last revealed the answers I sought. Praise Kormir! In her name, I will share the reasons behind our gods' withdrawal from this world.

    And make no mistake: the gods have withdrawn. Prayers go unanswered, Ascension fails. But do not despair, or ages: our gods still love us, and it is that love that drove them to leave.

    When the gods first brought humanity to this world, they were planting a garden; we were the seeds, with Tyria the fertile soil in which we would thrive.

    Like all gardens, it would experience and demonstrate life, death, challenge, order, growth, and beauty as it matured from carefully arranged rows of potential into dynamic, evolving reality.

    But there was a blight below the soil the gardeners could not prepare for; a predatory threat that would consume both the garden and the nutrients that sustained it: the Elder Dragons.

    When the dragons rose, the gods realized a terrible truth: any effort to save the garden would instead destroy it... or them. If humanity was to endure under their guidance, it could not be here.

    Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!

    Does anyone else think that the writers are just trying to tie up as many loose ends as possible so that they can end the story in a few years and move on to Guild Wars 3 on another world?

    I haven't found this in-game but OMG it is beautiful. It would also kinda make sense for the gods to look for a new place to live for humanity, as Tyria appears to be a deathtrap. Either with Elder Dragons feasting on magic and living creatures, or with the lack of Elder Dragons upsetting the balance and destroying Tyria outright. I've also been a bit curious about the progression of the story from here, as we apparantly can't kill more Elder Dragons and now that we've finished Balthazar there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more for our character to do but retire and live happily in Amnoon.

    I have full confidence that the writers will come up with interesting villains, as they did Balthazar. Considering how many different opinions there is on the execution of PoF shows that at least they did something right when so many are this engaged, both in favor and against. I can see Guild Wars 2 running for several more years, but the lack of "world threatening" things to kill might seem a bit dull after that's pretty much all we've been doing for the past 5 years.

  • @Athrenn.9468 said:
    See, here's the part that everyone's missing... probably because it's buried in achievements and Kormir forgot to include it in her sales pitch to Kasmeer & Co.

    There's a book written by some follower of Kormir entitled The Garden of the Gods. Frankly, it was probably quite a foolish mistake not to mention the part about leaving TEMPORARILY to secure a new home for their followers, but there you have it.

    After long hours of prayer, the goddess of truth herself has at last revealed the answers I sought. Praise Kormir! In her name, I will share the reasons behind our gods' withdrawal from this world.

    And make no mistake: the gods have withdrawn. Prayers go unanswered, Ascension fails. But do not despair, or ages: our gods still love us, and it is that love that drove them to leave.

    When the gods first brought humanity to this world, they were planting a garden; we were the seeds, with Tyria the fertile soil in which we would thrive.

    Like all gardens, it would experience and demonstrate life, death, challenge, order, growth, and beauty as it matured from carefully arranged rows of potential into dynamic, evolving reality.

    But there was a blight below the soil the gardeners could not prepare for; a predatory threat that would consume both the garden and the nutrients that sustained it: the Elder Dragons.

    When the dragons rose, the gods realized a terrible truth: any effort to save the garden would instead destroy it... or them. If humanity was to endure under their guidance, it could not be here.

    Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!

    Does anyone else think that the writers are just trying to tie up as many loose ends as possible so that they can end the story in a few years and move on to Guild Wars 3 on another world?

    I haven't found this in-game but OMG it is beautiful. It would also kinda make sense for the gods to look for a new place to live for humanity, as Tyria appears to be a deathtrap. Either with Elder Dragons feasting on magic and living creatures, or with the lack of Elder Dragons upsetting the balance and destroying Tyria outright. I've also been a bit curious about the progression of the story from here, as we apparantly can't kill more Elder Dragons and now that we've finished Balthazar there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more for our character to do but retire and live happily in Amnoon.

    I have full confidence that the writers will come up with interesting villains, as they did Balthazar. Considering how many different opinions there is on the execution of PoF shows that at least they did something right when so many are this engaged, both in favor and against. I can see Guild Wars 2 running for several more years, but the lack of "world threatening" things to kill might seem a bit dull after that's pretty much all we've been doing for the past 5 years.

  • @Hunter.6950 said:

    • With above in mind. The Wiki says and I'd like to think it's common knowledge that Dhumm was the god of Death. But what I'm interested in was he worshiped by the humans before Grenth and the Seven overtook him, Or did he just have the power of Death and domain? I don't ever recall seeing statues of Dhumm. Maybe he was a known powerful being just not part of the "team" yet. Maybe the "5" at the time wanted to have control of the "Death powers" and that's when Grenth came in since Dhumm didn't tolerated neither resurrections nor the existence of the undead, and he hunted down all those who escaped death, having promised "death undeniable.". He took Dhumm's powers, locked him up, and joined the 5, now 6. So pretty much, is there any confirmation he was a worshiped god part of the team of gods, or was he his own powerful being with those powers?

    Originally, Malchor was Grenth's father but it was changed to 'unnamed sculptor' later.

    Grenth couldn't kill Dhuum, and locked him up then joined the other Gods after he took Dhuum's power over death. Dhuum was the original God of death and was a worshipped figure by the Human beings along with the other Six (Abaddon, Lyssa, Dwayna, Balthazar, Malendru and Dhuum were the original ones).
    The statues were created before Grenth was born and it is possible that the statue we see of the God of Death is that of Dhuum and not Grenth.

  • @MVP.7961 said:
    Originally, Malchor was Grenth's father but it was changed to 'unnamed sculptor' later.

    That's actually untrue. It was always stated to be "mortal sculptor" - Malchor was never once, ever, stated to be Grenth's father.

    What was changed, however, was the Divinity's Reach statue of Grenth's inscription, which originally quoted Malchor but was changed about 4 months into the game to be quoting Desmina.

    @MVP.7961 said:
    Grenth couldn't kill Dhuum, and locked him up then joined the other Gods after he took Dhuum's power over death. Dhuum was the original God of death and was a worshipped figure by the Human beings along with the other Six (Abaddon, Lyssa, Dwayna, Balthazar, Malendru and Dhuum were the original ones).
    The statues were created before Grenth was born and it is possible that the statue we see of the God of Death is that of Dhuum and not Grenth.

    There's nothing to indicate the statues are of Dhuum. One of the achievements for The Desolation actually has us kneel before statues of seven gods, with commentary description text saying "it would be eight, but no one could find a statue of Dhuum". Further, folks would know what Grenth looked like from his time as a demigod, if not as a god.

    Not to mention that the statues don't look a thing like Dhuum, who we saw in person in GW1.

    Also, we cannot say that Lyssa, Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, and Dhuum are original gods - it's very likely that Lyssa and Balthazar had predecessors, in fact - and we know that Abaddon had a predecessor so he definitely isn't an original god.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.