[PVP] Why is Scourge strong?

Hey!I am not a Necro player, but I rolled one to understand how to play against them in PVP.

I have only played three rounds with Scourge so I probably need a lot more games to understand them, but as far as I could see Scourges were cried about due to boon corruption. As far as I can see however the boon corruption and condition transfer skills are all part of core Necro, not Scourge, so what makes them strong in this respect?

Also, as far as I can tell, Scourge has a lot of AOE skills and if you remain mobile and at range it is hard for me to deal damage as a Scourge.

Just trying to understand the playstyle both from playing the profession and asking the community :)

The main reason is the trait path of corruption is a lot stronger with scourge than it is with base necro or reaper. With base necro path of corruption boosts the skill Dark Path which is a single target skill on a 15 second cool-down (also gated by death shroud cool-down) and 3/4 second cast time. On scourge it affects the skill Nefarious Favor which is an instant cast AoE on a 5 second cool-down. For reference under optimal circumstances with sand savant allowing you to hit 5 targets off cool-down, path of corruption can corrupt 15 times more boons with scourge than it can with base necro which is kind of a ludicrous upgrade. Realistically you won't be hitting 5 targets with Nefarious Favor all that often but even at 1 target it is still 3 times more than base necro and thanks to it being instant cast it is much more reliable than dark path ever was.Also scourge does add a bit more corruption to what base necro brings with Unending Corruption bringing another short cool-down aoe corrupt and punishment skills bringing boon conversion to torment and cripple which is basically corruption.

Well, Nefarious Favor is an 8 second cooldown, but it still is incredibly strong.

Scourge is strong because it’s a heavy team-fight pressure class that is sustained by its own barrriers and an overturned support class (Firebrand). Both classes could use some shaves.

@Undo.5091 said:Well, Nefarious Favor is an 8 second cooldown, but it still is incredibly strong.

Scourge is strong because it’s a heavy team-fight pressure class that is sustained by its own barrriers and an overturned support class (Firebrand). Both classes could use some shaves.

True, I was using my necro to make sure I got the numbers right but he was in pve where it is still 5 second cooldown. The point still stands.

Scourge has additional boon corruption through 3 skills and has high consistent aoe boon corruption with path of corruption due to how shades work compared to base necro which needs death shroud and its super slow and hard to hit #2 shroud to hit or reaper which needs reaper shroud and its #2 melee charge ability to hit. All that taken into account scourges f2 has a low cd aoe boon corruption and isn't blocked by requiring shroud in combination with summoning shades(traited), the heal skill, trail of agony. and the elite on top of that just the general conversion/duration of boons to condis seems to also be a big factor.

Next are the actual spvp capture points due to scourges overall aoe potential it's very very easy to cover an entire cap point and bully an enemy off. As for the ranged argument while somewhat true to a degree ppl need to be at 1200 or more on a consistent basis and even then it will take a fairly long time to kill the scourge which just ends up being a total waste of time in something like spvp.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:Scourge has additional boon corruption through 3 skills and has high consistent aoe boon corruption with path of corruption due to how shades work compared to base necro which needs death shroud and its super slow and hard to hit #2 shroud to hit or reaper which needs reaper shroud and its #2 melee charge ability to hit. All that taken into account scourges f2 has a low cd aoe boon corruption and isn't blocked by requiring shroud in combination with summoning shades(traited), the heal skill, trail of agony. and the elite on top of that just the general conversion/duration of boons to condis seems to also be a big factor.

Next are the actual spvp capture points due to scourges overall aoe potential it's very very easy to cover an entire cap point and bully an enemy off. As for the ranged argument while somewhat true to a degree ppl need to be at 1200 or more on a consistent basis and even then it will take a fairly long time to kill the scourge which just ends up being a total waste of time in something like spvp.

But they're SHORT ranged... It's true that it works better, and the whole class, with punishment skills is built around corrupting boons... But maybe, just maybe, if you're a boon heavy class, don't melee the goddamn scourges?The only thing that needs changing atm is that players need to be able to knock shades our of points.I'd add a longer duration, but allow them to be targeted and knocked back, or work like the crystals on shatterer heal phase, or those chak support drones, make them invulnerable, but die when you break their bar.This way a scourge can't dominate a point simply by virtue of having a shade on it, adding some counterplay to it. Other than this, ranged attacks, especially really bursty, non-condi attacks will counteract a scourge.

Thank you for the replies, being new to the class I did not really see all the trait interaction etc :)

@Undo.5091 said:Well, Nefarious Favor is an 8 second cooldown, but it still is incredibly strong.

Scourge is strong because it’s a heavy team-fight pressure class that is sustained by its own barrriers and an overturned support class (Firebrand). Both classes could use some shaves.

6.5 seconds cooldown. You are forgetting that all scourges in pvp run vital persistence.

It's also worth noting that F2 (and the other F skills) all trigger a shade auto, which applies cripple. torment, and burning from dhuumfire. Combined with the 2 boons corrupted by path of corruption, this means that a scourge hitting f2 once can easily apply 5 unique conditions to the target.

@Omnicron.2467 said:Why is Scourge strong?

Because Arenanet need to sell the expansion pack.

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Omnicron.2467 said:Why is Scourge strong?

for that they have OP mirage, deadeye and spellbreaker ;)

@Lalainnia.3598 said:Scourge has additional boon corruption through 3 skills and has high consistent aoe boon corruption with path of corruption due to how shades work compared to base necro which needs death shroud and its super slow and hard to hit #2 shroud to hit or reaper which needs reaper shroud and its #2 melee charge ability to hit. All that taken into account scourges f2 has a low cd aoe boon corruption and isn't blocked by requiring shroud in combination with summoning shades(traited), the heal skill, trail of agony. and the elite on top of that just the general conversion/duration of boons to condis seems to also be a big factor.

Next are the actual spvp capture points due to scourges overall aoe potential it's very very easy to cover an entire cap point and bully an enemy off. As for the ranged argument while somewhat true to a degree ppl need to be at 1200 or more on a consistent basis and even then it will take a fairly long time to kill the scourge which just ends up being a total waste of time in something like spvp.

So wow, I played Scourge again with the info in this thread. I dominated. I can see why it is strong now.

What is the counterplay? Like you said the Scourge can dominate a capture point with its shades, and its other AOE abilities. So is mobility and range a counter? just kill the Scourge from far before trying to take the point?

Something that is also unclear to my as why staff is the optimal pick as a offhand weapon, the marks seem quite weak, but they do cover capture points. Is that it?

Also, a silly question, but it is not clear to me from the wiki or my own playtime, does base Necro and Reaper get a barrier when they use their shroud? I read and see something like that when playing against them, like their lifeforce becomes their HP, but when I enter shroud I have not experienced the same thing and I still die when low health and entering shroud.

Scourge is essentially the finalization of the concept of a debuffing tank. Instead of being like an ele, guardian or warrior that rely on buffing themselves and allies, Scourge takes the original concept for Necro of being a debuff-tank as a contrast to the original Guardian concept of a buffing-tank, and brings it up to the par of other HOT and POF specs.

It can easily flip debuffs on allies into buffs, and does the opposite for enemies that think they can just walk right through the giant, pulsing red circles that scream Do Not Go Here, which, incidentally, take several seconds each to set up.

Scourge is strong because players refuse to get on classes that can deal with them.. stuck in their old ways if you will. Unwilling to change and unwilling to adapt. If I hop on my soulbeast, scourges and sitting ducks. It's basically a shooting gallery, they can get nowhere even remotely close, and it takes less than 7 seconds to kill them, not as some claim it takes a "long time to kill". This is against the fully monty tanky class in dire or trailblazer.

But of course, if I always played a melee class like a warrior or guardian and refused to change, I'd get continually decimated, much like they do now. That will never change until a few of these players get off melee and get on ranged classes.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

The only thing that needs changing atm is that players need to be able to knock shades our of points.I'd add a longer duration, but allow them to be targeted and knocked back, or work like the crystals on shatterer heal phase, or those chak support drones, make them invulnerable, but die when you break their bar.This way a scourge can't dominate a point simply by virtue of having a shade on it, adding some counterplay to it. Other than this, ranged attacks, especially really bursty, non-condi attacks will counteract a scourge.

As a scourge player I've to admit this is a great idea, it wouldn't touch that much the scourge gameplay but offer counter play to shade which imo is good for balance

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:Scourge is strong because players refuse to get on classes that can deal with them.. stuck in their old ways if you will. Unwilling to change and unwilling to adapt. If I hop on my soulbeast, scourges and sitting ducks. It's basically a shooting gallery, they can get nowhere even remotely close, and it takes less than 7 seconds to kill them, not as some claim it takes a "long time to kill". This is against the fully monty tanky class in dire or trailblazer.

But of course, if I always played a melee class like a warrior or guardian and refused to change, I'd get continually decimated, much like they do now. That will never change until a few of these players get off melee and get on ranged classes.

This is so true, I've tried soulbeast and I farm scourge like nothing. That's what pisses me off the most, yeah scourge still needs to be polished to offer more counterplay to his mechanics but people in this game seems to not want to adapt to new classes. I mean like everyone now if see a bubble around a war means no attack, why can't you learn to kite off the scourge? People just try it for yourself, pick a soulbeast pewpewpew scourge to death an entire match = profit

@Omnicron.2467 said:Also, a silly question, but it is not clear to me from the wiki or my own playtime, does base Necro and Reaper get a barrier when they use their shroud? I read and see something like that when playing against them, like their lifeforce becomes their HP, but when I enter shroud I have not experienced the same thing and I still die when low health and entering shroud.

The necromancer and the reaper let you use life force as health point but, if it also give you a new weapon skills bar, it also come with quite a few drawback that the scourge or any other professions don't have:

• you lose life force every second in shroud.
• you cannot be healed by anything except life siphon.
• you are locked out of your utilities.
• you are extremly weak against CC.
• most shroud skills can be interrupted.

In order to have a bit more survivability in shroud, you need to use skills or utility skills that have a lasting effect and build a lot of life force before entering shroud so that you will be able to sustain the shroud for a little while. The only way to have the illusion of invicibility when in shroud is to use those skills:

• locust swarm
• spectral armor
• spectral walk

You do not use the shroud to protect yourself but to expand your life. If you take a hit that deplete all your life force, the extra damage that your life force couldn't block will be dealt to your health. Thus, if you had 1k health when entering shroud and 10% LF (let's say 1k life force), your life force will be able to stop 1k x2 damage before you're going out of shroud and if what hit you hit for 3k, you'll be down instantly. If it hit you for 2.5k you'll be left with 500 health... etc.

In many ways barriers are superiors to the shroud and scourge shroud skills benefit a lot from the fact that they are instant and can't be interrupted. Imagine if soul spiral or/and Life transfer couldn't be interrupted and let you continue to attack while applying it's effects... That's the scourge for ya. (and I believe that most of the superiority of scourge come from that)

A proper scourge just vomits conditions. Not like, apply with skills but just belch them out like there's no tomorrow. If there was a legendary where you vomit a rainbow everytime you apply a condition, it'd be perfect for scourge.

When I run the OP mirage that can cleanse 13 condis on 12s cd, 3 condis AoE twice with no cd, cleanse every dodge, cleanse every shatter and block attacks every other second there is still absolutely zero chance I can keep up with the conditions applied by a cancer scourge in AoE range. None whatsoever.

Of course it's not all doom and sadness - the scourge can be ranged to death, with time and a little luck countering the big bombs. That's not a problem. The problem is that Conquest just yell "NOPE NOPE NOPE YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY LIKE THAT, GET YOUR KITTEN ON POINT AND DIE TO AOE OR LOOSE THE MATCH". It's the textbook Conquest tank that literally denies PvP in your average objective circle. The way Anet designed Conquest is like 75% of the reason why scourge is hideously overpowered. If every point was two-three times as big as now this wouldnt be a problem at all - at least you could contest objectives while also trying to kite them.

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:Scourge is strong because players refuse to get on classes that can deal with them.. stuck in their old ways if you will. Unwilling to change and unwilling to adapt. If I hop on my soulbeast, scourges and sitting ducks. It's basically a shooting gallery, they can get nowhere even remotely close, and it takes less than 7 seconds to kill them, not as some claim it takes a "long time to kill". This is against the fully monty tanky class in dire or trailblazer.

But of course, if I always played a melee class like a warrior or guardian and refused to change, I'd get continually decimated, much like they do now. That will never change until a few of these players get off melee and get on ranged classes.

You can definitely do that in WvW, as you basically have an unlimited amount of ppl there to deal with scourges.

However for sPvP, "just bring a ranged class" isn't an all-encompassing argument, as you always have to keep in mind that there's 4 other players in the enemy team as well, and your comp is also limited to 5 people. For example, a single enemy Firebrand can turn that RF right back on you, and you end up murdering yourself. That LB soulbeast may not be worth bringing, when a druid can offer so much more than just ranged damage.It is true that Ranger specifically has the best toolset for dealing with scourges. Pewpew soulbeasts can destroy scourges from range, and druids can outheal/outcleanse all of the scourges damage. The issue with longbow is that it can easily be countered by anything that runs reflections like firebrand.

Play reaper vs scourge.. in pvpYou will know why it is considered strong.

Power revenant will destroy most scourges.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Omnicron.2467" said:Also, a silly question, but it is not clear to me from the wiki or my own playtime, does base Necro and Reaper get a barrier when they use their shroud? I read and see something like that when playing against them, like their lifeforce becomes their HP, but when I enter shroud I have not experienced the same thing and I still die when low health and entering shroud.No, they get a whole new health bar. One that doesn't expire after 4 seconds, and spends 1/3 of their life force just to get it.If you die when you enter shroud, then you had low life force, it's nothing to do with your low HP.In fact there's Unholy Sanctuary that heals you up while in shroud as well.

• you lose life force every second in shroud.But you don't lose HP, and you can actually slow it down with traits.

• you cannot be healed by anything except life siphon.See above for Unholy sanctuary.

• you are locked out of your utilities.It's called strategy. Not that most of the time utilities in necro aren't incredibly situational.

• you are extremly weak against CC.Shroud weak vs cc??
  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusing_Terror
  Yes it was nerfed but still, it's not different from actual scourge, unless the user goes nuts and loads all 3 skills that are avialable to scourge and grant stability (Trail of Anguish, Well of Power - which can also be used when shroud, just drop it before changing, and Lich form).

• most shroud skills can be interrupted.So can most every other skills? Including all of Scourge skills?

• locust swarm
• spectral armor
• spectral walk

You get the whooping amount of 2,487 + 5,016 + 4,208 = 11 711 Barrier, which does EXACTLY the same effect as Shroud. If you lose it all you get hit on your HP, the same as if you lose all life force, you get hit on HP.But for that, you have to use your heal (and sacrifice using Consume conditions, for example - if you don't, there goes 4k barrier), and still you use up half your life force, which means you have to trade damage for survivability, which isn't the case when using core necro shroud, because you gain access to some of your most powerful skills when in shroud.

TLDR: Shroud is a better alternative for sustainability than barrier, especially if well traited, because:

• It adds more health to necro than barrier (at it's minimum shroud has 2k more health than barrier, you take it up to 4 more with a minor trait on a line that improves shroud overall, and most reapers would take, and can increase it further by taking vitality, while barrier improves with healing power)
• You access shroud to also access many of your most powerful offensive skills, to maximize barrier you have to sacrifice Life force that could be expended on offensive skills with shades and a condi cleanse/better heal.
• All other considerations presented are also easily dismissed.

So we can conclude that barrier isn't making scourge especially tanky, not compared to core necro or reaper with shroud, especially because, and i can't stress this enough, life force (and thus shroud HP) increases with vitality, a stat that is already a staple on Necro builds, while barrier requires healing power to increase, which would require sacrificing more useful stats.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:Scourge is strong because players refuse to get on classes that can deal with them.. stuck in their old ways if you will. Unwilling to change and unwilling to adapt. If I hop on my soulbeast, scourges and sitting ducks. It's basically a shooting gallery, they can get nowhere even remotely close, and it takes less than 7 seconds to kill them, not as some claim it takes a "long time to kill". This is against the fully monty tanky class in dire or trailblazer.

But of course, if I always played a melee class like a warrior or guardian and refused to change, I'd get continually decimated, much like they do now. That will never change until a few of these players get off melee and get on ranged classes.

Well, if you're bringing firebrands into the mix... Well anything (including firebrand) that can cleanse your team also invalidates a scourge's power.And that's why i said, instead of nerfing scourges, make counter picks more viable.

I'd say that scourge is pretty well balanced for PvP right now, with the exception of lack of counterplay for shades (which i addressed earlier in this discussion, see https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/337278/#Comment_337278), there's just a bit more fine tuning on condition mechanics overall for it to be balanced. The problem is that most classes that can counter it are not played or lack the tools to counter things that aren't just scourges.

@"ReaverKane.7598" I won't link all your post but first off the first thing you comment on is not what I wrote but what I comment on. I'd have liked you to properly answer and give credit to the right person, thank you.

Otherwise,

• Reaper's shroud skills being the strongest skills of the reaper is arguable. All of those skills are pretty easy to shut down.
• You can't slow down the life force loss even with trait, you lose a flat % age of your life force pool while in shroud.
• If you want to cope with the Life force "bleeding", like I said, you have to use tools/utility that let you regain LF while in shroud.
• My goodness! Our savior unholy sanctuary have been summoned. Yes it does give the necromancer a heal over time while he is in shroud. Is it significant? arguable again.
• You lose life force while in shroud and yes it protect your health pool. However, if you have to mitigate 50k damage over 3 seconds the shroud will be way inferior to every single one invulnerability skills in this game.
• Shroud is weak against CC for a single reason: it doesn't give you access to a break stun and no infusing terror is not a break stun. Scourge will always have access to all it's tools including breakstuns.
• None of scourge shroud skill can be interrupted and yes that's a serious issue. Desert shroud should be interruptible and the same goes for nefarious favor. I feel it's ok for garish pilar and sand cascade to be instant, usable while CCed and impossible to interrupt but the other two skills need to be interruptible. A CC on a necromancer should be able to shut down desert shroud and nefarious favor should have a short cast time allowing your foe to interrupt the skill. Skills that threaten other this much need this much counterplay. On the other hand all necromancer's and reaper's shroud skill except for doom and Infusing terror can be easily interrupted 5you can even interrupt terrify. So yes, I persist in my statement.
• Learn what trait are for? Will you ask me to also learn what toughness is here for? Defensively, the necromancer traits do not allow him to prevent damage to be done like other profession's trait would do. That's the very peculiarity of the necromancer he does have to take damage with it's health points (or LF point).
• If you have 10% LF your favorite trait, Unholy sanctuary, will trigger and let you enter shroud. I was just hinting at this in my example. Do not worry I'm aware that the necromancer is not played by relying on your "oh ****!" button at the last time. So yes, again, if a high damage dealer is set on killing you and you got 10% LF and 10% HP, shroud will not make any difference.
• Your issue here is that you do not take into account the disponibility of the barrier and I won't teach you that there is a scourge trait that grant barrier each time you use a shroud skill, sand shade included, right?

Anyway, thank you for all your (not so) constructive comments on what I was replying to another player. But for me they weren't even a tiny bit helpful. What you fail to take into consideration (or maybe don't understand) is that the reason why barriers are vastly superior to shroud is because of their sheer quality of life. If you trait for it, you got a never ending source of barrier that you can use as easily when CCed than when you are in freely playing. This might feel like negligible for you but in a game like GW2 it's pretty d*mn huge. The other thing tht you fail to see is that, if you trait in blood magic, you can get this extra shiny heal from transfusion which will never be interrupted, that you will never benefit from while in shroud and is very close in efficiency to the ranger heal skill troll unguent. Yes, if you trait for sheer survivability/sustain, I'm pretty sure that the scourge can laugh at the other necromancer's spec. As for damage I think we are all very aware of the fact that the scourge deal easily as much damage as our other specs. Thus my statement: The shroud is way inferior to the scourge's barriers and more generally, the scourge is vastly superior to all other necromancer's spec.

@Dadnir.5038 said:@"ReaverKane.7598" I won't link all your post but first off the first thing you comment on is not what I wrote but what I comment on. I'd have liked you to properly answer and give credit to the right person, thank you.Quoting auto-hid it, click the arrows...

Otherwise,

• Reaper's shroud skills being the strongest skills of the reaper is arguable. All of those skills are pretty easy to shut down.With the right traits shroud skills are devastating, but ok. Easy to shutdown compared to what? They're as easy to shutdown as any other skill in the game. Oh, you mean cause shade skills can't really be interrupted. Sure, that's true, but you can interrupt the shade itself. So, it's a matter of positioning. Also, Reaper Shroud 3 can't be interrupted either, and it gives stability. So there's some counterplay to both, although like i've been saying shades should be ccable to increase counterplay.

• You can't slow down the life force loss even with trait, you lose a flat % age of your life force pool while in shroud.Sorry i misspoke. There's a ton of traits that increase life-force regen, and shroud skills that drain life-force form target, allowing you to keep up shroud for longer.

• If you want to cope with the Life force "bleeding", like I said, you have to use tools/utility that let you regain LF while in shroud.And traits, yes. Thus slowing down it's depletion.

• My goodness! Our savior unholy sanctuary have been summoned. Yes it does give the necromancer a heal over time while he is in shroud. Is it significant? arguable again.More significant than you make it sound, you get to keep attacking normally, and you regain health without having to wait for a cast time, you're effectively immune to health damage, and dealing significant damage.130 HP per second without having to pause your attacks isn't that insignificant, but ok.

• You lose life force while in shroud and yes it protect your health pool. However, if you have to mitigate 50k damage over 3 seconds the shroud will be way inferior to every single one invulnerability skills in this game.How is that different from barrier?

• Shroud is weak against CC for a single reason: it doesn't give you access to a break stun and no infusing terror is not a break stun. Scourge will always have access to all it's tools including breakstuns.What stun breaks does scourge have? Also entering shroud in and of itself can be traited to stun break.

• None of scourge shroud skill can be interrupted and yes that's a serious issue. Desert shroud should be interruptible and the same goes for nefarious favor. I feel it's ok for garish pilar and sand cascade to be instant, usable while CCed and impossible to interrupt but the other two skills need to be interruptible. A CC on a necromancer should be able to shut down desert shroud and nefarious favor should have a short cast time allowing your foe to interrupt the skill. Skills that threaten other this much need this much counterplay. On the other hand all necromancer's and reaper's shroud skill except for doom and Infusing terror can be easily interrupted 5you can even interrupt terrify. So yes, I persist in my statement.You can't interrupt entering shroud either. And Desert Shroud is scourge's "entering shroud", also on Reaper Infusing terror can't be interrupted either, which gives stab. So you can avoid interrupts. Sure it's not as powerful as being able to cast Shade skills without interruption, but it's way more dynamic since your enemy can move out of the range of the shade and not melee you. And recasting shades is interruptible.While i already said that shades need counterplay, i don't think that it's the skills itself that need to be countered, but the fact that a point can be controlled without physical presence, hence my suggestion of ccing the shades.

• Learn what trait are for? Will you ask me to also learn what toughness is here for? Defensively, the necromancer traits do not allow him to prevent damage to be done like other profession's trait would do. That's the very peculiarity of the necromancer he does have to take damage with it's health points (or LF point).LOL, sure ok... Shroud is probably the best defensive mechanic in the game, necro is one of the tankyest classes in the game, and you're complaining it's not tanky enough? LOL man.

• If you have 10% LF your favorite trait, Unholy sanctuary, will trigger and let you enter shroud. I was just hinting at this in my example. Do not worry I'm aware that the necromancer is not played by relying on your "oh ****!" button at the last time. So yes, again, if a high damage dealer is set on killing you and you got 10% LF and 10% HP, shroud will not make any difference.Nor will barrier. In fact, for the most part you won't even be able to get barrier on you (unless you're not using consume conditions, but Sand flare instead) because, unless you have over 24k HP, it costs more than 10% of your LF to cast Sand cascade, and a lot more than that for Desert Shroud.

• Your issue here is that you do not take into account the disponibility of the barrier and I won't teach you that there is a scourge trait that grant barrier each time you use a shroud skill, sand shade included, right?Is there? What's it called?

Anyway, thank you for all your (not so) constructive comments on what I was replying to another player. But for me they weren't even a tiny bit helpful. What you fail to take into consideration (or maybe don't understand) is that the reason why barriers are vastly superior to shroud is because of their sheer quality of life. If you trait for it, you got a never ending source of barrier that you can use as easily when CCed than when you are in freely playing.Except cooldowns and LF costs, and that you imagined a trait that doesn't exist.

This might feel like negligible for you but in a game like GW2 it's pretty d*mn huge. The other thing tht you fail to see is that, if you trait in blood magic, you can get this extra shiny heal from transfusion which will never be interrupted, that you will never benefit from while in shroud and is very close in efficiency to the ranger heal skill troll unguent.1) Transfusion is a trait for a Shroud skill?2) I'm going to assume you got the name wrong, so i'm looking for anything even close to troll unguent:Life Siphon is pretty close, but dagger skill... There goes your condi damage. Also although the life drain isn't blocked the skill itself can be evaded.Signet of Vampirism is pretty close, but you'd have to either sacrifice the condition handling of consume conditions or the barrier from Sand Flare.Blood Bond triggers a lesser signet, this could be what you mean, but i'd counter that you're as likely to get full benefit of it with scourge as with core necro, because you can always proc it when not in shroud.Vampiric Rituals Works when on top of wells, you can do that with shroud on. Won't be as long lasting as without sanctuary, but its doable. Also, i don't think anyone would trait that for scourge though.All the other Life syphoning skills are quite dim, not going over 100HP per tick, and since you don't consider unholy sanctuary significant at 130. I guess those shouldn't be either.

Yes, if you trait for sheer survivability/sustain, I'm pretty sure that the scourge can laugh at the other necromancer's spec. As for damage I think we are all very aware of the fact that the scourge deal easily as much damage as our other specs. Thus my statement: The shroud is way inferior to the scourge's barriers and more generally, the scourge is vastly superior to all other necromancer's spec.Look, i've played 60% of my ranked matches after leagues with Reaper. Necromancer is my highest winning rate class.After PoF i transitioned to Scourge. And as far as tanking goes, i preferred Reaper. I believe they recently changed how much Life force you get with reaper, or how much shroud you can take, so they kinda nerfed it, which is sad. But my friend i play pvp with plays Reaper (when he's doing necro), and when i play Scourge along side him he gets as many, if not more, Top stats than me in PvP. Sure you can say its skill and all, but for me it's proof enough that it works.

Scourge is bad design. Its strenghs and counters are too onesided. You have either to spec into massive hard CC, condi removal or go ranged. Most players fail to do so for different reasons (they don't want to adapt, they don't have the skill to adapt, their class has only limited options to adapt).

Scourge is already useless outside of teamfights. It needs more mobility but less pressure to end up in an acceptable state. At the moment it raises and falls with its firebrand babysitter.

1) Transfusion is a trait for a Shroud skill?I have the name right look at the grand master traits. Heal you (and allies) every seconds for 9 heal tics on a 12 second CD traited. With a bit of healing power it's one hell of a sustain.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transfusion

I'm sure you know quite a lot of things on the necromancer and you rock in PvP but you obviously don't look at the big picture which is the necromancer and tend to focus on what you already know. In short, you got your winning patern and developped a narrow vision on the necromancer. Barriers allow you to take way more heal and benefit way more from your own heals than you would from the shroud, this is an argument that you can't deny. This and the fact that barrier are a huge QoL to the necromancer's defense make barrier superior to the shroud and leave it to the dust.

The shroud lost quite a lot with the last past patch. The cool down was hit and the bleeding increased. Did we get more LF gen? No. Did we get traits that reduce the "bleeding"? No. You argue on "better" result and I put 2 mechanisms in front of each other. We are not talking about the same thing. I'm evaluating mechanism objectively while you do it subjectively.

NB:

Is there? What's it called? Desert empowerment.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Empowerment

Man you don't even know the traits of the necromancer. Neither the core traits nor the scourge traits... How can I take you seriously? Or should I assume you are another troll out there?

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

Is there? What's it called?

Desert empowerment

.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Empowerment

Desert Empowerment only works on placing a Shade, and then only on allies in the shade's area. It doesn't make all F skills apply barrier.

These restrictions are true for all Master tier Scourge traits.