Revamping Toughness.

One of things that I sincerity hate about condition damage is that nothing affects it, nothing works to mitigate Condition damage, it has no stat that counters it like physical damage does.

So.. what I suggest is that Toughness, also mitigates condition damage as it does physical damage.

What ya all think?

You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

Condition damage was always supposed to be based on duration, not burst damage. It is supposed to kill over time, not instantly like power builds.The problem is...like always...very poor balancing in terms of mechanics and outright damage potential.

@Zephyra.4709 said:You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

Vitality works against both.. but it does not mitigate, it just gives you a larger pool to just take any kind of damage.

See what makes conditions the problem with balance, is that there is no defensive stat against them. So.. if there we a defensive stat that worked against conditions, like say Toughness reducing their damage, they could be more easily balanced in WvW.

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Zephyra.4709 said:You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

Cleanse and resistance. The rate of condi spam though...

@X T D.6458 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Zephyra.4709 said:You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

But are those analogous to blocks and protection?

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Zephyra.4709 said:You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

Well again you have to look at the entire scope of things, and the guiding principle behind both types of builds. Power-high damage/high risk. Conditions-Damage over time. The sheer amount of conditions and spammability obliviously need to have some counter. We initially just had cleanses, but then resistance was added. You have a lot of counters to power already; invulns, protection, blocks, reflects, toughness/armor. Adding too many counters to conditions would make those builds less powerful, since they are supposed to be based on DoT not burst.

Again though, the problem is poor balancing.

Not this conversation again... Vitality, Regeneration, Resistance, and cleansing/convert skills and traits are all counters and that isn't to mention that condis cannot be applied with certain invuln traits/skills.

@Chaba.5410 said:Not this conversation again...

Yes this conversation again.. because we STILL have a problem.

When we no longer have a problem.. we will no longer have this conversation again.

There is no problem. Conditions are already too easy to mitigate.

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Chaba.5410" said:Not this conversation again...

When you start a thread claiming that there are no counters, no defensive stats against it, the conversation is already off to a bad start. You're not dealing with the reality of game mechanics when you make those claims. You asked what people think and that is what I think. I also think you aren't after balance, but after easy mode.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Condi-damage-mitigation-stat-needed/page/1#post6521603

"I agree that they’ve taken condition damage over the top to make it compete with burst direct damage, that’s why Resistance was created. That isn’t to say though that there is no condition damage mitigation stat in the game. The trade-off for non-crit over-time damage was for Armor to be ignored. Some of the classes with low base HP pools were designed to have additional balance through heal bursts or, like thief, stealth.

IMHO making condition damage subject to a second mitigation stat like Armor will continue to push this game further into easy mode territory."

The problem you are seeking doesn't have anything to do with toughness and the damage calculations, but with the damage numbers on skills and traits.

Vitality is the original counter to condition damageSince its duration damage the more hp you had the longer you would survive which also helped mildly against power

So yeah toughness should have a little rework , maybe reduce condition duration since you are so tough you could "shake it off" :P

Shouldn't be on toughness.

If you want to do this attach - Incoming condi duration to vitality as it's supposed to be the go to stat for handling conditions and toughness is meant to handle direct damage.

As long as it lessens the mitigation from physical damage sure. Those who run toughness... some of you don't seem to realize just how overbearing it is. A full zerker spec does very little damage to those running a lot of toughness. Kind of hard justifying running zerk as a high risk high reward spec, when there is all risk and no reward for such little damage. So if you want condition damage mitigated by toughness, then toughness in itself should be scaled back at minimum 50% against physical damage.

There is a defense against conditions, it's called cleansing, and a player can only reapply conditions so fast, so paired with the right classes, conditions can be cleansed faster than reapplied. If you are getting lit up with conditions it's because you're getting hit with multiple condition classes at once, which is no different than getting hit by multiple physical damage classes at once. So in which case, those who argue conditions still get reapplied faster than you can cleanse, I'll counter with: physical damage is reapplied faster than I can heal, so physical damage needs to be reduced across the board.

We're honestly better off with a separate attribute that reduces condition damage that does not sit on any gear with toughness or vitality. We can't have god bunker builds running around. Then, those who want to run the condition mitigation will have to sacrifice toughness and vitality to do so.

The problem isn't conditions, the problem are the players themselves refusing to get on classes that can deal with the condition spammers. Lets be real here, when you are talking about condition spam, you're talking about scourge. Scourges have a very easy and hard counter with rangers and thieves, to the point one would have to look at nerfing both of them based on the scourge's vulnerability to them based on "people who still think we have a condition problem"

They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:As long as it lessens the mitigation from physical damage sure. Those who run toughness... some of you don't seem to realize just how overbearing it is. A full zerker spec does very little damage to those running a lot of toughness. Kind of hard justifying running zerk as a high risk high reward spec, when there is all risk and no reward for such little damage. So if you want condition damage mitigated by toughness, then toughness in itself should be scaled back at minimum 50% against physical damage.

There is a defense against conditions, it's called cleansing, and a player can only reapply conditions so fast, so paired with the right classes, conditions can be cleansed faster than reapplied. If you are getting lit up with conditions it's because you're getting hit with multiple condition classes at once, which is no different than getting hit by multiple physical damage classes at once. So in which case, those who argue conditions still get reapplied faster than you can cleanse, I'll counter with: physical damage is reapplied faster than I can heal, so physical damage needs to be reduced across the board.

We're honestly better off with a separate attribute that reduces condition damage that does not sit on any gear with toughness or vitality. We can't have god bunker builds running around. Then, those who want to run the condition mitigation will have to sacrifice toughness and vitality to do so.

The problem isn't conditions, the problem are the players themselves refusing to get on classes that can deal with the condition spammers. Lets be real here, when you are talking about condition spam, you're talking about scourge. Scourges have a very easy and hard counter with rangers and thieves, to the point one would have to look at nerfing both of them based on the scourge's vulnerability to them based on "people who still think we have a condition problem"

Except some comms won't allow rangers or thiefs in to their squads, despite not being full and continually getting wiped by scourge bombing....

I'd like to see some new stat that mitigates condition damage, as currently it's just crazy aoe spam condi damage that wipes players instantly (more or less) without any counter except stay away or hope resistance doesn't run out.

Ideally I'd like legendary armor and weapons to just have a total number of points assigned to them, and then for you to be able to assign those points into any stat you want (with a hard cap of 218 or 250 in any one stat- whatever the current maximum is). That way I could build an armor set (not that I will ever get legendary armor, but this would encourage me to try!) with the stats I wanted. Say 200 pow, 100 tough, 100 vit, 100 condi reduction, 50 healing power or similar. Ascended armor stats could be changed at a vendor for a fee or in the forge where you would select the desired stats and enter the required materials.

@Chaba.5410 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:Not this conversation again...

"easy mode" line is over used and pointless at this point in discussions. "Everything I don't like is Easy Mode" (AKA: I play an OP flavor of the Month Build, and don't like fair fights)

Sorry.. but the exact problem is that condition does rival burst damage, so.. either condition would need to be Nerfed to the ground (Rivers of tears)

Or some defensive stats should mitigate their damage to balance them out, like they do Burst damage.

If Vitality had the added effect of reducing condition damage like Toughness does to Physical Damage.. I would be ok with that as a solution.

@Klipso.8653 said:They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

I could see that.or have it so that Vitality also reduces condition damage as well as increase total HP. That could work.. Nomads!

I'd prefer to see condition mitigation revamped and scale off Healing Power. Condition removals can remove a number of conditions based on your Healing Power or have a faster recharge speed. Resistance could have its effectiveness scale on Healing Power. This will force players to make a real choice in how they make their builds. You can build for almost full condition immunity, but you will have to sacrifice for it. There are quite a few builds out there that don't have to sacrifice much to be strong against condition builds.

Conditions always bypassed armour. They're conditions for a reason. It would make no sense for a condition to be mitigated by armour. Vitality is a perfect choice for conditions. Condition power is the problem. Lower that and you got no problem.

@Inoki.6048 said:Conditions always bypassed armour. They're conditions for a reason. It would make no sense for a condition to be mitigated by armour. Vitality is a perfect choice for conditions. Condition power is the problem. Lower that and you got no problem.

Just so we are clear.. your solution would be to nerf condition damage.

The salty tears would be funny.. but I think that would go over worse then just having a stat that mitigates the damage.

On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

Well I guess if Burst damage stuck to me like a hemorrhoid, I'd expect Anet to put in a Burst damage cleanse.

I'd rather they lowered condition damage and have it be affected by precision + ferocity.

You shouldn't be able to stack toughness + vitality and still have great damage.

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

exactly