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Solution to new Raiders and Raid sellers.


Rikimaru.7890

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Oh I'm probably going to hell for this one , but I could use a vacation anyway. :pBut first spare me the "join a Raid Guild" solution, if it were an actual solution the problem would have been gone by now, it's been 2 years now so if it actually works why does the problem persist?

So you know the drill, inexperienced players want to raid, but experiened aren't willing to teach because they don't like wasting time.Instead many experienced raiders want to be paid to carry the new player, but that won't really make new raiders learn anything, they will just earn credit for the kill but not the experience they need.It's driving a lot of people crazy (probably ANET too) and there doesn't seem to be any solution to the problem, but I found one: We simply have to compromise.

What I mean is the experienced raiders must be compensated for their trouble, but not at the expense of the new player. So how do we do that? Simple the experienced raiders will earn double rewards when helping a first timer. By that I mean twice as much gold, 2 LI instead of 1 and the Magnetite Shard limit will be up to 300 when helping new players.Now someone may say that won't solve anything, but keep in mind that Raids have a weekly time gate not daily, thus the ability to earn twice as many LI and Magnetite Shards will be an attractive offer to those that want to craft their first or next Legendary Armour. Raid sellers take gold from new players, but they cannot buy Legendary Insights or Magnetite Shards with that. So many experienced raiders will find the extra LI a reward worth the trouble of teaching a new player.But how exactly would this works? Well when fighting a Boss the new player had never killed before the remaining raid party would recieve an active effect, like the "Be Dynamic" effect when doing 100CM, this effect would result in doubled rewards after the encounter is completed. However this effect would have conditions due to which it can be lost. One of them would be that the new player MUST take part in the fight from the start, so they cannot join when a boss is at 1% health, otherwise the effect will not be applied. Another one would be that the new player CANNOT DIE or the effect will be lost, this is so the "teachers" don't ignore their "pupil" and just 9-man the Boss for the reward while they learn nothing.Also the effect would be limited to the once per week reset just as normal rewards, so it would not be possible to earn more than 2 LI and other rewards in a week from the same boss, even if they redo with another first-timer. However it would be possible to earn the addition reward even after doing the weekly kill, i.e. if you already killed Xera and got your 1 LI you can still get another LI if you kill Xera again with a first-timer in the same week.

Of course there will still be Raid sellers and kicks for new players as before, but this would tone down the problem at the very least. More over even if someone does get kicked because the raid party decided that the new player is so bad that even doubled rewards are not worth the trouble it will still help. Because even then the new player will gain some experience so they will do better next time they try and will still have their "first timer" status to bait experienced raiders into taking them along when that next time occures.

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People would just exploit this with multiple accounts.But it would help a lot if you could receive the gold reward multiple times a week. That way you can help first timers without losing gold.LI's aren't really the problem since most people don't need them anyways except for the lfg pings.Also a lot of raiders have just a bad experience with some inexperienced players. At first i tried to help players with terrible dps or boon uptime but got yelled at for being a toxic elitist. So i just started to leave such groups.You could just start your own raid like most of the inexperienced players do anyways. Can't kick the squad leader.

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@"Rikimaru.7890" said:Oh I'm probably going to hell for this one , but I could use a vacation anyway. :pBut first spare me the "join a Raid Guild" solution, if it were an actual solution the problem would have been gone by now, it's been 2 years now so if it actually works why does the problem persist?

So you know the drill, inexperienced players want to raid, but experiened aren't willing to teach because they don't like wasting time.Instead many experienced raiders want to be paid to carry the new player, but that won't really make new raiders learn anything, they will just earn credit for the kill but not the experience they need.It's driving a lot of people crazy (probably ANET too) and there doesn't seem to be any solution to the problem, but I found one: We simply have to compromise.

The reason the "issue" persist is because alot of people either dont want to join a guild, interact with others, play any other way than their own or spend time learning. There are plenty of guilds that are willing to teach on a small scale, and huge communities on both EU and NA that do the same. They are easily accessible and linked in every single thread, but always ignored by the people claiming raids are inaccessible or toxic as they generally don't wan't to put in the minimal effort it requires.

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How about increasing rewards globally all across the board and giving some actual incentive for people to raid? It worked to increase population in PvP with leagues. But bear in mind, this has consequences, because the population arriving will be solely interested on the rewards and not on any sense of "community", "proper playing" or whatever attitudes the so called "elites" foment during their playtime. Lowest common denominator will be even stronger than now and groups will be more chaotic (like on the competitive game modes). It would also be akin to a statement by Anet that they are actually putting raids under a spotlight and wants most players to go raid or go home (not their original idea at all), by introducing raids as a new "source of income" rather than a mere challenge with unique skin rewards.

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The OP has misunderstood the "problem".

@"Rikimaru.7890" said:But first spare me the "join a Raid Guild" solution, if it were an actual solution the problem would have been gone by now, it's been 2 years now so if it actually works why does the problem persist?Sorry, that can't be spared. There are guilds that are specifically organized to teach anyone willing to put in the effort. The fact that it's been 2 years or 5 years isn't relevant: some people aren't willing to meet the modest requirements, some people don't think they should need training, and there are new people all the time.

So you know the drill, inexperienced players want to raid, but experiened aren't willing to teach because they don't like wasting time.There are different groups of inexperienced players, some who need little training, some who aren't willing to adapt to the group setting. There are different groups of experienced raiders, some willing to train, some not.

Instead many experienced raiders want to be paid to carry the new player, but that won't really make new raiders learn anything, they will just earn credit for the kill but not the experience they need.Folks who want to get paid are providing a service: they aren't interested in teaching anyone; it's only worth it to them to learn how to speed clear with 9 or fewer and get paid for as little effort (on their part) as possible. That's entirely distinct from training.

tl;dr Anyone who wants can join a training guild, but not everyone who wants to join experienced PUG groups is willing to train. That's not something solved by changing the rewards.

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I think a couple things would be nice. A new Raid daily for bosses with the reward of an additional LI would be good and possibly some more gold. That would probably get more people to do certain bosses much like fractal dailies.

I think accessibility is really a key component. I’ve been thinking that maybe they need to treat the raid portion of this game like pvp , where you have access to all stats and builds in the aerodrome. It may give people a chance to learn new professions in raids. It might also give the ability to easily multi class the content if everyone has access. I know where I sat in some groups waiting because no one had a certain class with the right build or armor stat for that particular build. Might make it easier for people to swap out different professions or try new things.

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@"Rikimaru.7890" said:

So you know the drill, inexperienced players want to raid, but experiened aren't willing to teach because they don't like wasting time.Instead many experienced raiders want to be paid to carry the new player, but that won't really make new raiders learn anything, they will just earn credit for the kill but not the experience they need.

Proof? I hope you can somehow back up this assumption with more than just:"I think that's how this is."

My take is the exact opposite: there is an abundance of support for people to get into raids, yet many are unwilling or incapable (due to various reasons) to raid.

@"Rikimaru.7890" said:What I mean is the experienced raiders must be compensated for their trouble, but not at the expense of the new player. So how do we do that? Simple the experienced raiders will earn double rewards when helping a first timer. By that I mean twice as much gold, 2 LI instead of 1 and the Magnetite Shard limit will be up to 300 when helping new players.

There is no reason to reward experienced raiders. Most raiders that want to help are already doing so. Raids and even more static groups require constant supply of new raiders due to people quitting. This would merely add a system which can be exploited while people who get "carried" suddenly develop a mentality of:"I don't have to do anything, person xyz is getting rewarded for doing this for me."

@"Rikimaru.7890" said:But first spare me the "join a Raid Guild" solution, if it were an actual solution the problem would have been gone by now, it's been 2 years now so if it actually works why does the problem persist?

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

Yes we did and it is unfortunate that you can only play during off hours, game design and balance can't be done around niche time slots though. Especially when considering additional rewards.

Would more incentives for raiders to help be good? Sure.

Do I think this can be achieved via more rewards without damaging the game as a whole? No.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

Yes we did and it is unfortunate that you can only play during off hours, game design and balance can't be done around niche time slots though. Especially when considering additional rewards.

Would more incentives for raiders to help be good? Sure.

Do I think this can be achieved via more rewards without damaging the game as a whole? No.

I think game design on MMO games can totally be done around playability at all times. I can play Fractals in off-hours just fine with only minutes of waiting at most, what is so different with Raid design? Only fixed schedule they ever did was LS1 and the backlash was just as big as the approval.

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Sorry after the effort I made to be able to raid, 3 weeks for now. I just cant see your points. Its certainly hard to join but not impossible. Just impossible for ppl, who are unwilling to learn, to use meta build and gear and unable to adept to the boss mechs(not everyone is good enough for that).

Yesterday we had a weaver, he just joins discord and ask for a slot without even knowing what the bosses do, havent watched any videos or guide at all. He said he deals good dmg. We are nice and the bosses arent hard Mo and Sam, so we let him join. And he deals 3-4k dmg, 9. place just better than our harrier druid. If the druid was condi, he will be last. We played pretty much with 9 ppl. Its was ok but its not how it should be.Somehow a lot of ppl think they deal good dmg withou even knowing their number.

So join pick a meta build, build up gear for that, practice rotation and join a guild, join random groups too. If you dont want to waste a couple of hours for a boss, or even more on smth like deimos. You dont derserve to be in raid. We all have go through that.

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@Tyson.5160 said:I think accessibility is really a key component. I’ve been thinking that maybe they need to treat the raid portion of this game like pvp , where you have access to all stats and builds in the aerodrome. It may give people a chance to learn new professions in raids. It might also give the ability to easily multi class the content if everyone has access. I know where I sat in some groups waiting because no one had a certain class with the right build or armor stat for that particular build. Might make it easier for people to swap out different professions or try new things.Such a thing would not be a good development for raiding in general. Some accessibility barriers are already too low, which leads to people coming into raids who should do quite some research before. I don't think people want to see things like the glorious 2k-dps toughness-based non-healer ele on a daily basis. If we had some hard barrier like a raid attunement quest that has to be done before you could enter any raid, then I might be inclined to think about such a suggestion. But not at the current state, especially when gearing a character, except for a few niche cases, is rather trivial (no, full ascended is not required).

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@maxwelgm.4315 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

Yes we did and it is unfortunate that you can only play during off hours, game design and balance can't be done around niche time slots though. Especially when considering additional rewards.

Would more incentives for raiders to help be good? Sure.

Do I think this can be achieved via more rewards without damaging the game as a whole? No.

I think game design on MMO games can totally be done around playability at all times. I can play Fractals in off-hours just fine with only minutes of waiting at most, what is so different with Raid design? Only fixed schedule they ever did was LS1 and the backlash was just as big as the approval.

The main difference is that raids (versus fractals) have weekly lockouts, are 10 man designed and for many fights a lot more difficult than fractals. You don't see people running daily fractals multiple times do you? Unless they are helping out friends, which basically is the same as people running training runs for inexperienced players or running multiple raids per week.

Unless raid rewards are reduced or redesigned, there is no budging from the weekly lockout reward wise. One of the major components for raids and their design is the inability to farm through all the rewards in a couple of days/weeks. Almost all games with raids deal with this in a similar way to keep rewards interesting and not over-saturate the player base with them.

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@"Rikimaru.7890" said:Oh I'm probably going to hell for this one , but I could use a vacation anyway. :pBut first spare me the "join a Raid Guild" solution, if it were an actual solution the problem would have been gone by now, it's been 2 years now so if it actually works why does the problem persist?

Sorry we cannot spare you from this cause is a solution that helped and helps many people raid. That is where the experience players that can, want and enjoy helping new players to raid FOR FREE are. Their existence makes your whole position a bit invalid.

The people that still have an issue with this just do not want to make the effort to cooperate with others for a cooperative game mode. That is why the problem persists. And no amount of reward to trainers will change that since in the end of the day you will be required to make effort to learn how to raid. If people re unwilling to do that through the already existing communities i can assure you they will be unwilling to do it even with your solution. Although some in-game incentive for trainers would not be a bad thing. It would just not solve the issue you are trying to solve. There is nothing to be done for them.

If you offer a thirsty person water and does not drink it because he is too lazy to simply lift his hand it is not your problem any more. Helping and babysitting are not the same things

If you want people to spare you from that argument you have to make a convincing case of why it is not a solution.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

Yes we did and it is unfortunate that you can only play during off hours, game design and balance can't be done around niche time slots though. Especially when considering additional rewards.

Would more incentives for raiders to help be good? Sure.

Do I think this can be achieved via more rewards without damaging the game as a whole? No.

They are trying to deal with this issue in WvW in terms of peak times etc. It’s unfortunately not just a problem that is just in raiding. It’s kinda the issue of having an mmo in general that spans multiple time zones and the only real solution is having a high player population in prime times and non prime times.

I’ve personally come to terms with it and will eventually get a kill on each boss, will probably take lot longer, but it has to happen eventually.

I thought my idea of having Raid daily boss would be neat that would award additional LI and mag shards, etc as a small once

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@Tyson.5160 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

Yes we did and it is unfortunate that you can only play during off hours, game design and balance can't be done around niche time slots though. Especially when considering additional rewards.

Would more incentives for raiders to help be good? Sure.

Do I think this can be achieved via more rewards without damaging the game as a whole? No.

They are trying to deal with this issue in WvW in terms of peak times etc. It’s unfortunately not just a problem that is just in raiding. It’s kinda the issue of having an mmo in general that spans multiple time zones and the only real solution is having a high player population in prime times and non prime times.

I’ve personally come to terms with it and will eventually get a kill on each boss, will probably take lot longer, but it has to happen eventually.

I thought my idea of having Raid daily boss would be neat that would award additional LI and mag shards, etc as a small once

I suppose joining the opposite region does not help you much with the times (NA<->EU). But what about Oceanic players? I am quite sure there are some mostly Oceanic guilds around and i remember a couple of NA servers that Oceanic ppl converge. Maybe their time might be more close to your and fill the void?

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@Turin.6921 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

Yes we did and it is unfortunate that you can only play during off hours, game design and balance can't be done around niche time slots though. Especially when considering additional rewards.

Would more incentives for raiders to help be good? Sure.

Do I think this can be achieved via more rewards without damaging the game as a whole? No.

They are trying to deal with this issue in WvW in terms of peak times etc. It’s unfortunately not just a problem that is just in raiding. It’s kinda the issue of having an mmo in general that spans multiple time zones and the only real solution is having a high player population in prime times and non prime times.

I’ve personally come to terms with it and will eventually get a kill on each boss, will probably take lot longer, but it has to happen eventually.

I thought my idea of having Raid daily boss would be neat that would award additional LI and mag shards, etc as a small once

I suppose joining the opposite region does not help you much with the times (NA<->EU). But what about Oceanic players? I am quite sure there are some mostly Oceanic guilds around and i remember a couple of NA servers that Oceanic ppl converge. Maybe their time might be more close to your and fill the void?

That's what I've done. I found an Oceanic guild that plays on NA server (they get lower ping on NA than on EU), and they raid at the perfect time for me. It sucks having to play with high ping but it's manageable.

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Better Anet endorsed guild advertisement and recruiting would go a long way. The forums are not really a great way to find a guild because you have to sift through a bunch of post that most likely are not recruiting anymore for their static or do not need or meet your required role or time. It was the main reason I started pugging and eventually made my own static group.

One thing I really miss about WoW (sadly wont work well in this game due to population difference and the fact raiding isn't near as popular in this game comparison wise,) is I could go to wowprogress update my profile to lfg with my preferred difficulty, time and link previous kill logs and I would have dozens of people contact me within a couple of hours. You could also manually search for guilds by entering your preferred raid times etc.. as well.

I really do not think there needs to be more incentives to get people to re-kill bosses because it creates more problems than it helps.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Have you actually tried to join a guild? Could you elaborate what you have actually tried as far as getting to start raiding? For me the join a guild solution worked perfectly.

Dismissing the best approach to getting into new content on a mere whim has to be explained or else you entire topic is useless.

Depends on the person, I think I have had this discussion with you. Personally I can only play during non Prime times due to factors not in my control. Most guilds do raiding in evenings and weekends. I can understand if people can’t make those times.

Yes we did and it is unfortunate that you can only play during off hours, game design and balance can't be done around niche time slots though. Especially when considering additional rewards.

Would more incentives for raiders to help be good? Sure.

Do I think this can be achieved via more rewards without damaging the game as a whole? No.

Australia is not a niche time slot, mate. It's a country. We have lots of people. Making us into second class in game citizens is bad business, if you ask me.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Australia is not a niche time slot, mate. It's a country. We have lots of people. Making us into second class in game citizens is bad business, if you ask me.Well, compared to the two big blocks (north america and EU), Australia certainly is a niche time slot. Just for perspective, you have less than 5% of the EU population.

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@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Australia is not a niche time slot, mate. It's a country. We have lots of people. Making us into second class in game citizens is bad business, if you ask me.Well, compared to the two big blocks (north america and EU), Australia certainly is a niche time slot. Just for perspective, you have less than 5% of the EU population.

So we're going to marginalize whole countries. Australia is a country in a region referred to as the Oceanic Region and when you add up all the countries in that region, you have a lot more people. How many of them play Guild Wars 2 I have no idea, but let's not say that a percentage of the world should be excluded from content because they're not in the US, or that it's easy because it's easy for people in the US. We bought the game game that everyone else did, except we probably paid more for it.

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