How would you redesign the mesmer? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How would you redesign the mesmer?

Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 7, 2018 in Mesmer

Do you feel like the mesmer could be much more? That his mechanics don't do his theme justice? Maybe his elite specializations have a weak design? Or do you just want to post some crazy ideas? Well, then this thread is for you.

So, just for fun, how would you redesign the mesmer?

Last update here: May 26, 2018

Few personal ideas to start the thread:


Mesmer - Illusion redesign

I've never liked the mesmer too much, and I think his mechanic is to blame. The shatters are just boring, and illusions lack some real controls. Both phantasms and clones are pretty disappointing in general, they just feel like something that can't reach its full potential because of how it's designed.

The first step is to get rid of the current shatter setup, and make clones and phantasms something completely distinct.

Phantasms would no longer be part of the profession mechanic. Now, every phantasm has a role, a goal. Once it's completed, it just disappears. These roles can be something like charging at an enemy and slashing at him twice, deploying a shield for a few seconds, healing/finishing a downed player, etc. So you could consider phantasms are some sort of projectiles now, that enemies can destroy before they reach their target. This change would let phantasms do their full damage on a shorter span of time, improving the general DPS of the mesmer. Removing them from the mechanic lets you have more phantasms up, and we could see some new skills like "summon 6 phantasms at once to distract your enemy" which are not possible now. Phantasms would keep their transparent purplish appearance. Also, all clone skills would become phantasm skills.

Clones would now be exclusive to the mechanic bar. Buttons F1, F2, and F3 would summon a clone each, in your selected target location. They would be static, no longer moving, and last for a fixed amount of time. They would copy the player, wielding the same weapon, and use the basic attack against the last enemy the player attacked. Note that melee attacks would only be useful if the clone is placed near an enemy, since they can't move now. Also, distance would be an important factor when dealing with ranged weapons. If your clone is closer to the enemy, its attack will strike before yours, which can lead to interesting strategies, where your enemy wastes time blocking the fake attacks before the real one hits. Clones would keep their player-like appearance, but the revealed effect would temporarily turn their appearance into that of phantasms.

Once summoned, their buttons would unlock special abilities. Mesmer players would have different illusion setups to choose from, with different abilities. You would be able to equip two at a time, swapping between them with the F4 button. Clones wouldn't be destroyed when you swap, instead changing to the new setup.

Some examples:

  • Switch: These clones let you switch locations with them. Useful to escape from dangerous situations, and to move around the battlefield without your enemies noticing.
  • Explode: These clones can overload and explode when ordered to, throwing enemies away. They overload and explode when destroyed as well. The explosion is inevitable once they have overload.
  • Synchronize: These clones can copy player attacks, including various weapon skills and slot skills. Their version of the attacks is weaker, but still dangerous if used properly.
  • Substitute: These clones can cast a skill for you, with the full effects. The cast has a short delay, giving you time to perform combos with the clone. Useful when you are disabled or out of range, and can't cast the skill yourself.
  • Reflect: These clones reflect enemy projectiles, returning the damage to the attackers. Can be really deadly against enemy players who don't pay attention. Can only be destroyed by melee and AoE attacks.
  • Absorb: These clones absorb part of the enemy damage they suffer, healing the player.

Swapping between your two setups can lead to interesting combos. For example, if your enemies have you surrounded, switch locations with another clone to escape, then swap to the absorb setup, and your enemies will heal you by destroying the clone. This is the kind of gameplay that we should expect from an illusionist, in my opinion.

All three clones have the same basic stats and special skill, but they have some minor differences depending on button used to summon them. Each clone represents an emotional state, which determines those secondary properties.

  • Joy: Located in F1, has additional vitality, toughness, and healing power.
  • Grief: Located in F2, has additional condition damage, expertise, and concentration.
  • Anger: Located in F3, has additional power, precision, and ferocity.

The boost isn't huge, and you won't notice many differences by using one or another, but using specific clones in each situation can improve your effectiveness in combat, specially in PvP and raids, where every number matters. The goal of this is to reward mesmer players who want to take their skills further.

Clones can be further customized through traits, to make them damage nearby enemies after swap, to make them become phantasms after being destroyed, to deal conditions when attacking, etc.

Slot skills could welcome some changes here and there, but all things considered, this would be the perfect mesmer for me, and I hope you like it as well.


Chronomancer - Continuum Split redesign

I'm happy with the chronomancer, Continuum Split is really cool, but I'm sad it's just that, and too short. There's so many things you can do with time manipulation, and the chronomancer should have more options.

Note that I will be building this redesign on top of the first one, but the idea could still work with the classic mesmer.

Continuum Split would stay in the F5 button, but it would change a bit. Now there would be no Continuum Rift, and the split would last a maximum of 10 seconds, letting you shift whenever you want. However, if all your clones are destroyed by the enemy, you lose the ability to shift, and suffer some damage.

So, I buffed the split time, but made it easier to counter by the enemy. This adds an interesting gameplay twist, where your enemies have to switch from finding the real version, to finding the fakes. The chronomancer is much stronger now, but he has to defend the clones, and if they're going to get destroyed, shift back before it's too late. Or maybe, you don't want to shift back, and you destroy them yourself.

While you're under the Time Anchored effect, clones would become tougher and be frozen in place, and skills F1 to F5 would be replaced by new skills, losing clone management in exchange of enhancing your manipulation over time:

  • F1: Switch location with the first clone, and heal it and yourself.
  • F2: Pull nearby enemies to the second clone.
  • F3: Shatter the third clone to extend the split for 5 additional seconds. Same as F4 if it's the last clone standing.
  • F4: Shatter all your active clones, preventing the forced shift.
  • F5: Continuum Shift. Restores clones and phantasms to their position and status back when split was activated.

Aside from that, wells are now part of the timeline. Their expiration timer is frozen while split is active, letting you extend their duration. If you casted them once the split started, they will stay once it's over, and the cooldowns won't change. This change gives them a deep synergy with the split, and more ways to interact with it.


Mirage - Full redesign

The mirage is too simple for an elite specialization, and the excuses from chronomancer don't work here. Note that I would again be writing this on top of the first idea, though it would work for the original mesmer as well.

I want something different for mirage. I believe that elite specializations should be about new mechanics, and sometimes, the new ones should replace the originals. This would be one of those cases.

So, first step, clean the mechanic bar. Leave it empty.

Second, the new mechanic. I think mesmer needs a pure raw power elite specialization. One about fierce melee fights, where it's all about direct damage and close combat. Clones would need to be repurposed into something else, fitting this role.

I'm calling this new type of illusion the echo. Three echoes would follow the player all the time, repeating his actions. Each echo would have a short delay of 1/2/3 seconds, making a trail after the player, and letting you cascade skills for combos. However, if the player stands still, they disappear, so he needs to be moving constantly, even in melee combat.

Echoes repeat everything the player does, every single skill (with a few exceptions), with less damage and shorter effects. They're supposed to replace the DPS produced by clones, after all. They can't be selected, and they can't be destroyed.

Third, Mirage Cloak. I don't like this skill, it's just too dull and simple. I want something with mobility, that has a good synergy with echoes.

So now, mirage cloak will be a dash, which can be paused by using an ambush skill, in which case, the echoes, now further from each other due to the dash speed increase, would use it as well, increasing its effectiveness. The endurance is now down to 50, but you can control the dash distance by holding the dodge key, consuming less than with normal dodges.

Fourth, let's get into the mechanic skills. Mirage would use F1, F2, F3, and F4.

Mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4 would summon a Mirage Mirror. The big mirrors wouldn't be available through slot skills anymore, which would be redesigned. They have a new purpose now, and it's boosting the mirage cloak dash.

The idea is that you'll dash against the mirrors, for additional effects. There would be three different mirrors:

  • F1: Double the dash forward.
  • F2: Double the dash, turning 45º to your right.
  • F3: Double the dash, turning 45º to your left.

Mechanic skill F1 would be a burst skill, based on your active main hand weapon. This skill would force you to be still (so no echoes), and it would summon a fan of illusory weapons, which would then be thrown/fired one by one to/against the target enemy. It would be a channeled skill, meaning it can be cancelled by enemy crowd control.

It would require a new adrenaline-like resource, which would be obtained by inflicting and evading damage. The skill would throw/fire a different amount of illusory weapons depending on the tier of the resource.

Fifth, slot skills would be redesigned. Now they would all be about spawning minor mirage mirrors, with different effects from the ones in the mechanic bar. They wouldn't double the dash, but they would give various bonuses when dashed through.

Finally, I would give mirage off-hand axe as well.

The idea of this redesign is to make mirage a killing machine wielding axes in both hands, dashing to charge against his enemies, using echoes to strike them multiple times. A whirlwind of destruction if you wish, which focuses on his own positioning instead of that of his clones.

The weak point would be crowd control, since it would make echoes despawn temporarily, or cancel the burst skill. Conditions affecting endurance would complicate dashing too.


Just some random ideas to begin the thread. Waiting for yours! =)

Profession Redesign series:
Elementalist - Mesmer - Necromancer - Engineer - Ranger - Thief - Guardian - Revenant - Warrior

Comments

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A little sorry but i completly dislike this idea. Its too much. Static clones inmediately make meele weapon clones useless.

    Instead i'd get rid of different types of illusions.

    They are all clones now. They have mesmers weapon set and swap weapons with mesmer. Constant auto attack for 10-20% damage , reduced condi stacks/time. Same with clone attacks. They mimic Things like axe 2 for less damage and as example only 1 Stack torment.

    Now lets get to phant skills.
    Now the mesmer uses the phantasm skill too + all active clones.

    Example : mesmer does axe 2, 1 clone spawns which does axe 2 once. Mesmer does Another axe 2 and spawns a second clone. Both clones do axe 2. Then the mesmer uses pistol 4 and spawns another clone. However all clones will then use pistol 4 for full damage. U gotta reduce the 3 "phant" damage for sure. ( updated version may not be the same damage as 3 phants now - should be like 2 phants, therefore reduced cooldown)

    This way you can shatter if you want, because you can resummon clones pretty fast.

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:
    A little sorry but i completly dislike this idea. Its too much. Static clones inmediately make meele weapon clones useless.

    Instead i'd get rid of different types of illusions.

    They are all clones now. They have mesmers weapon set and swap weapons with mesmer. Constant auto attack for 10-20% damage , reduced condi stacks/time. Same with clone attacks. They mimic Things like axe 2 for less damage and as example only 1 Stack torment.

    Now lets get to phant skills.
    Now the mesmer uses the phantasm skill too + all active clones.

    Example : mesmer does axe 2, 1 clone spawns which does axe 2 once. Mesmer does Another axe 2 and spawns a second clone. Both clones do axe 2. Then the mesmer uses pistol 4 and spawns another clone. However all clones will then use pistol 4 for full damage. U gotta reduce the 3 "phant" damage for sure. ( updated version may not be the same damage as 3 phants now - should be like 2 phants, therefore reduced cooldown)

    This way you can shatter if you want, because you can resummon clones pretty fast.

    Yeah, the melee part is a problem. Maybe just remove damage from clones altogether? Make them do point-blank AoE damage instead? summon phantasms? Letting them move around is a problem, since it would ruin the positioning gameplay, so I want to avoid that, and leave it for the phantasms.

    An alternative, going with the idea of making each clone a bit different, is that they could have their own preset weapons, and they're always ranged. However, that would ruin the illusion a bit, since enemies could tell them apart from the player easily. Maybe let them keep whichever weapon the player is wielding, but give them unique abilities?

    So, for example, the joy clone would always use the same attacks, no matter the weapon he's wielding and the animations it casts. Then grief and anger would have different attacks each. They can be ranged, point-blank AoE, or whatever, but not melee. This would make it easier for players to tell them apart, but not that easy.

    I don't like shatters either, I feel like they don't give you enough control of the clones.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    Redesign of the mesmer hmm...

    What i'd doo is the following:

    1) Completely remove Mirage from the game and replace it with the Bard (Shortbow), while redesigning the Chronomancer from too much focus on Support and Hard CC spam to becoming more of a mixture of indirect Support and offense in the way that Mirage is, while Bard will take over the stronger direct support role, while giving the class with the SB another good ranged combat option over the Staff and GS, which is more a hybrid between both, what staff is for Condis only useful and GS only for power builds, SB will be the hybrid between both which want to have power and condi together in a mixture ranged, plus giving the mesmer with it some of the mirage like mobility that rivals the mobility of the thief SB in that case
    2) Redesign Confusion to not be anymore such a massive damage over time + reactive damage condition to just only a reactive damage condition how it used to be and nerf the damage of if, so that you basicaly can't kill yourself in like 2 seconds self from getting spammed full with confusion. Instead of the Dot add the secondory effect of the removal of friendly fire, while under confusion, so that your AoE skils and any other non directly targeted attacks will then also damage your allies, if they hit them, because you can#t differentiate under your confusion anymore, whos your enemy and whos your ally, for you are all the same under confusion, everybody under confiusion is basically mentally seen your enemy... with this change will nmake the usage of cofusion in the right situations (especialyl WvW) alot more fun and peopel will stop spamming their AoEs all too mindlessly immediately around lioke mad...
    3) use and merge the mirage skills and traits for the Core Mesmer to improve its gameplay and make its dodge gameplay basically baseline for the Mesmer to differentiate more based on the classes the dodge styles of each class. While the Daredevil styles shouldbecome baseline for Thief, should become the mirage dodge style baseline for mesmer...
    4) Redesign the gameplay aspect of Clones and Phantasms.. remove Phantasms, limit Clones to maximum 2, but make them last therefore much longer like Phantasms and deal also more damage like Phantasms. Phantasms as utility skill will get replaced with Mentalisms, which are Mind Force Skills related around Telepathy/Telekinesis, Dream Catching/Nightmares/Sleep Magic/Condition and improved Manipulations called Mind Controls
    5) Mesmer has now following baselined Weapons: Scepter, Focus, Staff, Greatsword, Pistols, Axes, Torch, Swords

    basically my 5 step plan for mesmers for now.. if there would exist more weapon types finally, id make also additionally Whips, Chakrams and Cesti (Plural of Cestus) (Magic Gauntlets) for them as part of additional E-Specs in the future for a Dreamcatcher (Whip), Bladedancer (Chakrams) and Mentalist (Cesti) Specs


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


  • @FaboBabo.3581 said:
    A little sorry but i completly dislike this idea. Its too much. Static clones inmediately make meele weapon clones useless.

    Instead i'd get rid of different types of illusions.

    They are all clones now. They have mesmers weapon set and swap weapons with mesmer. Constant auto attack for 10-20% damage , reduced condi stacks/time. Same with clone attacks. They mimic Things like axe 2 for less damage and as example only 1 Stack torment.

    Now lets get to phant skills.
    Now the mesmer uses the phantasm skill too + all active clones.

    Example : mesmer does axe 2, 1 clone spawns which does axe 2 once. Mesmer does Another axe 2 and spawns a second clone. Both clones do axe 2. Then the mesmer uses pistol 4 and spawns another clone. However all clones will then use pistol 4 for full damage. U gotta reduce the 3 "phant" damage for sure. ( updated version may not be the same damage as 3 phants now - should be like 2 phants, therefore reduced cooldown)

    This way you can shatter if you want, because you can resummon clones pretty fast.

    I love this idea.

    I'd add to it slightly.

    Clones copy your auto, not your other moves.

    Phantasms are swapped for "doppelgangers"

    Doppelgangers have the same appearance as the player (but 10% reduced opacity), but the higher health of a phantasm. They have auto attacks *much stronger than clones but only slightly weaker than the player. They visually copy your moves (with particle effects at half opacity) , though it only ever applies thier 'auto attack'.*
    - same cast times as the phantasms they replaced
    - attack effect when summoned. Both from the player and the doppelganger. (this is based on the weapon that summoned them, and would resemble a clone spawning while casting ambush)
    - each summon skill is a "flip skill" that stays 'flipped' so long as that doppelganger is up.
    - activating the "flip skill" triggers the 'on summon attack effect' of that skill, from the player and his doppelgangers. (similar to your above phantasms skill idea.)
    - the cooldown on doppelgangers runs down "behind" the flip skill, encouraging you to shatter them after some use.
    - this limits the number of doppelgangers you can spawn, and forces you to use one of the "phantasm" (now doppelganger) utilities to summon a full 3 doppelgangers.
    - doppelgangers weapon swap with the player.
    - each trait that currently affects phantasms, adds various 'on death' traits to doppelgangers. ..while still providing the same benefits to phantasms, if you trait for it. (see below)

    This change to doppelgangers, brings back 'on death' traits, while limiting the number of illusions it can effect without investment into underused utilities. It adds a new kind of build, focusing on doppelgangers. More about working with your illusions, and using thier 'attack skills', rather than pumping out expendable clones. The fact that doppelgangers copy your skill animation but clones do not, allows for clones to still provide misdirection at higher levels of play. Also, it solves some of the issue clone builds have in the clones dying to cleave damage. And if you trait for it, you actually want your doppelgangers to get cleaved. Also, this gives mirage a unique identity as 'the clone spec' as doppelgangers, like phantasms, don't ambush. They appear to, but it only applies doppelganger auto attack damage.

    Add a grandmaster trait to Illusions that changes doppelgangers into phantasms.
    -phantasms no longer have an attack effect when summoned.
    - phantasms now have a 'fade out' mechanic.
    - phantasms that are 'fading out' dont count against your three illusion limit.
    - Once you have three phantasms up, and you summon your fourth, instead of over-writing your phantasm, it will use its ability twice more before dying. Once at 50% power and once at 25% power.
    - when a phantasm is 'fading out' its opacity reduces untill its barely visible.
    - a phantasm that is 'fading out' does not have health, it only has a break bar, needing one soft cc to destroy. (adding counterplay in spvp, but adding forgiveness for pve dps.)
    - when you shatter a phantasm they each shatter in thier location, and immediately begin to 'fade out'
    - chronophantasma allows phantasms to attack two extra times for 25% damage when 'fading out' if shattered.

    This encourages you to invest deeply into a phantasm build. It makes you refresh your phantasms quickly, and encourages you to use multiple kinds of phantasms so that you can cast them quickly enough to get multiple phantasms 'fading out' for max dps. It also encourages you to shatter phantasms. Once you have three active, and three in the process of 'fading out' shatter, and have five 'fading out' then cast phantasm, swap, phantasm heal signet, phantasm. Makes the opening burst of a phantasmal build into part of the rotation, and adds shatters. This addresses virtually all of the issues with phantasms, and thier playstyle.

  • MikeL.8260MikeL.8260 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly all I would do would pick Chronomancer as it is and give it Jaunt, Elusive Mind(instead of Delayed Reactions) and the Dodge/Ambush mechanics of Mirage. Beutiful.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    What do you guys think about the redesign ideas after the latest changes to mesmer phantasms?

    @MikeL.8260 said:
    Honestly all I would do would pick Chronomancer as it is and give it Jaunt, Elusive Mind(instead of Delayed Reactions) and the Dodge/Ambush mechanics of Mirage. Beutiful.

    Don't you feel like the chronomancer is missing a new mechanic? Something that replaces all the shatters with some new time abilities, for example?

    Maybe each new mesmer elite specialization could get a whole new type of illusions, replacing the core mechanics for clones/phantasms.

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Difficult to say what I'd do.

    Because, sadly, I feel the game has bigger issues than even the design of an entire class. Issues which I'd like to see resolved first:

    • The overall problem of having 15000 knobs where I can customize my character, yet 99,9% of combinations make no sense for any given context. If the game wants to be an optimization puzzle, then they ought to look at something like SpaceChem or Factorio as to how these are best done. However, I feel this is instead meant to be complexity for the sake of showing off, "Look how many things you can customize". What it however results in is an endless amount of ideas going to waste on underpowered traits / skills / items / sigils / runes, ideas that if merged, boiled down and optimized could give each class a strong identity. If only for - an important aspect - a lack of options in some areas.
    • Combat is such a mess of graphics and effects that trying to do any meaningfully complex combat implementation beyond 2 participants is a wasted effort. Until this is resolved, I think I'd prefer a WoW-like "stats determine the outcome"-game, simply because what GW2 tried to do isn't what the graphics designers want. Clearly.
    • WvW as a whole is a mess because somewhere between short TTLs, small maps and characters ridiculously overloaded with skills, items and options, the devs lost what made DAoC's RvR so good. Nevermind the fact that we don't have a Darkness Falls, so population balance will always be a problem. Even with the announced alliance-change.
    • Elite specs as a whole are an undercooked concept. To use words which won't get me infracted. Some had elements where you give something up for what you gain. Most are flat upgrades. On the whole, HoT elite specs trivialized all previous PvE and broke the TTL balance in PvP/WvW, which also exaggerates the visibility/fx issues. Nevermind what PoF specs then did.

    Now, assuming all that gets resolved, I would rip out ~75% of our utility/healing/elite skills. On the whole I'd retool core Mesmer into a heavily CC and offensive support centric build which debuffs enemies to take more damage, hurt themselves, restrict their ability to punish my team mates and take action at all. In return, I have neither offense (I cannot kill my enemy) nor defense (if alone, I'm a support, I'm a free kill). In a group I become a serious threat even though I don't actively muck with combat, because I cost the enemy so much time either via attacking me, or suffering through all my CC and debuffs.
    Clones still exist, shatter is a goner, F-skills create or swap with clones including an auto-fire skill which on a short CD swaps you with a clone if you hit 0 health. In return, the class has virtually 0 defensive ability, as said above. Find the real Mesmer or blast him with AEs and if team mates cannot help them they're an easy kill.

    I would then retool the Chronomancer into a variant which sheds the CC (entirely!) and replaces it with defensive support via buffs. So it's both a debuffer and a buffer, but it loses the ability to prevent action entirely, in all forms. It's a heavy power tilt, the enemy is weaker and we are stronger, but if someone wants to do something a core Mesmer can stop them, a Chrono cannot.
    Their core mechanic would be a time-dilation aura around themselves which is always active, giving a "mini quickness" (not stacking) to allies and "mini slow" (not stacking) to enemies.

    Mirage I'd scrap in its current state. Replacement unclear but I would not salvage a single mechanic. All gone. Including the theme, but to be fair there isn't one.

  • @Carighan.6758 said:
    Elite specs as a whole are an undercooked concept. To use words which won't get me infracted. Some had elements where you give something up for what you gain. Most are flat upgrades. On the whole, HoT elite specs trivialized all previous PvE and broke the TTL balance in PvP/WvW, which also exaggerates the visibility/fx issues. Nevermind what PoF specs then did.

    Ultimately I think it's okay if elite specs are just plain better than base professions, so long as we add at least a couple more elite specs per profession. When there was only one per profession, making them better than the base profession was a serious problem, because "use this one spec or you're missing out" isn't exactly an interesting decision. With two elite specs per profession, it's a bit better, especially because most elite specs have multiple ways they can be used well.

    Increase that to three or four, though, and I think we're in good shape.

    Sure, ideally the base professions should still have a place, but ultimately I'm more interested in having good build variety than I am in where that variety comes from, if that makes sense.

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    The overall problem of having 15000 knobs where I can customize my character, yet 99,9% of combinations make no sense for any given context. If the game wants to be an optimization puzzle, then they ought to look at something like SpaceChem or Factorio as to how these are best done. However, I feel this is instead meant to be complexity for the sake of showing off, "Look how many things you can customize". What it however results in is an endless amount of ideas going to waste on underpowered traits / skills / items / sigils / runes, ideas that if merged, boiled down and optimized could give each class a strong identity. If only for - an important aspect - a lack of options in some areas.

    I have to admit I don't entirely agree with all of your points, but this one I definitely do.

    I'm not a professional game designer, not even close, but after a lot of years playing and thinking about games, I've started to think that most RPGs could be improved by removing boring choices. And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Takashiro.8701 said:
    Can we be thankful for what we have for once, instead of complaining everything is kitten all the time. Especially after the rework we just got.

    Yes, maybe. Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly thankful that mesmer got the fundamental redesign it needed to remove the aspect of its own class mechanic fighting against itself. However, at the same time, there are still a lot of problems both with mesmer and with other classes. I don't think there is anything wrong with continuing to point them out, as long as its done in a constructive manner (ie "I find X wrong with Y class because Z reasons, and here is A, B, C ways that I think it could be addressed in a good manner")

    Not to mention, that just because we got this redesign does not mean that huge balance changes are done. Many people who play GW2 do believe that toning back every class, especially elite specs, significantly would make the game even better than it currently is

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agent Noun.7350 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    Elite specs as a whole are an undercooked concept. To use words which won't get me infracted. Some had elements where you give something up for what you gain. Most are flat upgrades. On the whole, HoT elite specs trivialized all previous PvE and broke the TTL balance in PvP/WvW, which also exaggerates the visibility/fx issues. Nevermind what PoF specs then did.

    Ultimately I think it's okay if elite specs are just plain better than base professions, so long as we add at least a couple more elite specs per profession. When there was only one per profession, making them better than the base profession was a serious problem, because "use this one spec or you're missing out" isn't exactly an interesting decision. With two elite specs per profession, it's a bit better, especially because most elite specs have multiple ways they can be used well.

    Increase that to three or four, though, and I think we're in good shape.

    Sure, ideally the base professions should still have a place, but ultimately I'm more interested in having good build variety than I am in where that variety comes from, if that makes sense.

    I agree that as we get more and more elite specs this problem will start to sort itself out more. I also think that releasing 1 or 2 elite specs on their own, outside of an expansion, would help immensely as it would get us more elite specs faster.

    I generally also agree that its okay if elite specs are better than core spec, however part of the reason that some elite specs are so oppressive is because those single traitlines offer everything, offense/defense/support, and are better at all 3 than core traitlines are. Take chronomancer for example, it offers insane support, while also offering us better damage (now) and insane personal sustain. Or berserker, which has been dialed back a lot now, but when released had huge damage and also huge sustain due to primal burst skills counting as T3 burst while only needing 10 adrenaline to use. This is the fundamental problem with many elite specs, they offer too much of everything. They need to be dialed back to a single focus, like most core traitlines are. They are either damage or support. Either personal sustain or group

    @Agent Noun.7350 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    The overall problem of having 15000 knobs where I can customize my character, yet 99,9% of combinations make no sense for any given context. If the game wants to be an optimization puzzle, then they ought to look at something like SpaceChem or Factorio as to how these are best done. However, I feel this is instead meant to be complexity for the sake of showing off, "Look how many things you can customize". What it however results in is an endless amount of ideas going to waste on underpowered traits / skills / items / sigils / runes, ideas that if merged, boiled down and optimized could give each class a strong identity. If only for - an important aspect - a lack of options in some areas.

    I have to admit I don't entirely agree with all of your points, but this one I definitely do.

    I'm not a professional game designer, not even close, but after a lot of years playing and thinking about games, I've started to think that most RPGs could be improved by removing boring choices. And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

    I think that the stat system is fine, its GM traits that aren't. GM traits should change how you play a build, look at Holosmiths for great ones. Ideas that I think would be really interesting would be stuff like

    • All boon strips are now boon corrupts, but skills/traits that strip multiple boons now have a lower limit (eg, disenchanter would only corrupt 3 boons with this trait instead of hte 5 that it strips normally)
    • A portion of all healing you give is dealt as AoE damage in melee range around you.
    • Your projectile attacks are now unblockable, but their max range is reduced by 300 units
    • When an attack is blocked, its CD is reduced by 20%
    • When you kill an enemy, all boons on you get their durations increased by X seconds
    • Shatters have their CDs reduced by 50%, and have their effects cut by 50% (50% less damage for MW, CoF has its duration cut in half, distortion has its duration cut in half, diversion has its duration cut in half, CS has its duration affected as well but probably keep the 1sec minimum for F3/4/5)

    Stuff that changes how you play, and can be tailored to specific encounters. I think that a large part of why we have such uninteresting GM traits is because there are so many of them. 7 traitlines for each class, with 3 GM traits in each line, with 9 classes is 189 different GM traits that have to be designed, with the goal of every single one of them changing how that class plays the game, while still being unique, and most importantly not overpowered with any other trait combination you can think of.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Agent Noun.7350Agent Noun.7350 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2018

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    I generally also agree that its okay if elite specs are better than core spec, however part of the reason that some elite specs are so oppressive is because those single traitlines offer everything, offense/defense/support, and are better at all 3 than core traitlines are. Take chronomancer for example, it offers insane support, while also offering us better damage (now) and insane personal sustain. Or berserker, which has been dialed back a lot now, but when released had huge damage and also huge sustain due to primal burst skills counting as T3 burst while only needing 10 adrenaline to use. This is the fundamental problem with many elite specs, they offer too much of everything. They need to be dialed back to a single focus, like most core traitlines are. They are either damage or support. Either personal sustain or group

    That makes sense to me.

    My general feeling is that I'm okay with an elite spec being versatile so long as you can only actually build your character for one or the other. If Chronomancer can offer great support or great damage, but not both at the same time, it's not a huge deal. But where that changes is when it starts to overwrite the rest of that profession's elite specs. If Chronomancer, for example, offered better DPS options than Mirage ever could, that would be a big problem, because it would crowd out Mirage. As it is, Mirage's DPS is higher than Chronomancer's, but it's also different--you go Mirage for condi, Chronomancer for power--so I don't think it's as big of a deal as it could be.

    If a third Mesmer elite spec comes out and is geared towards power damage or tanking, and Chronomancer outperforms it on what it's supposed to be the best at, then there'd be a problem again.

    My real problem with Chronomancer is that I think it's too much of a support generalist, to be honest. I like that it provides either a strong support build, a strong tank build, or a solid power DPS build--I don't want that to change--but right now there are two issues:

    1. You don't really have to choose between a support build and a tank build. You give up damage, sure, but you don't have to give up your support capability to be a good tank, or vice versa. That's probably worth taking a look at.
    2. If you do build for support, you can provide too many different kinds of support. This sort of goes hand-in-hand with point 1 above--if we look at tanking as a form of support and/or crowd control--but it's more far-reaching. Chronomancer is good at quickness and alacrity (a good niche), but also at healing, applying and sharing offensive boons, and crowd control. All at the same time. It's really got to pick one.

    My hope is that Chronomancer can keep its current damage--it's strong, but not extremely so, and really fun to play--but maybe has to scale back some of its support versatility to make room for other professions to compete in those areas. We need room for other tanks, for example.

    Or, hey, here's a fun option: what would it take to transfer Chronomancer's tanking capabilities to Mirage? It makes a lot of sense that the elite spec whose main thing is "I'm not actually where you think I am" would be great at distracting enemies and avoiding their damage. The issue is that I'm sure Mirage would be good at that, but because Chronomancer can do that role and also provide its core support, there's no reason to try it.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    Some new ideas, simpler than the first ones:

    • Mesmer: No shatters, no clones. Phantasms are now temporary summons that do a specific action and then disappear, no limit to how many of them you can summon, and no longer locked to the target. The core mechanic becomes a hybrid between engineer turrets and necromancer shades. You place up to three permanent illusions that can't move, and then give them orders. The idea is to have these illusions be some sort of "acolytes" for the mesmer, that help them perform his intricate spells. The new gameplay focuses on positioning of the illusions, and then making them cast skills, which will have different effects depending on the layout of combat. For example, you can order them to stun an enemy, right before you attack him, or to channel their energy on giving you bonus defense. Your enemy will want to destroy the illusions to make you less powerful, so you'll have to position them properly. Doing combos with your illusions would increase your combat efficiency.
    • Chronomancer: Instead of turret/shade-illusions further, chronomancer can summon "echoes", with the same health points, that repeat everything you do, with some seconds of delay. If you want to go back in time, you can switch places with one of those echoes. Of course, these illusions can get damaged so you must be careful not to switch places with an echo that is in a worse state than you. The gameplay would no longer focus on cooldown resets, but careful planning and combination of successive identical attacks. Wells would now last less, but be stackable when recasted by the echoes. Echoes would disappear after a few seconds.
    • Mirage: Instead of turret/shade-illusions, mirage has burst-like skills, where extra phantasms are summoned. The idea is to make mirage a melee beast, that once gets close, summons a lot of phantasms, and then activates the burst skill to make them attack together with him at once for extra damage. Dodging all of them is harder than just dodging a normal attack. Dodge is replaced by a dash.

    No other profession focuses too much on positioning, and I think that could work very well with the mesmer.

    @Agent Noun.7350 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    The overall problem of having 15000 knobs where I can customize my character, yet 99,9% of combinations make no sense for any given context. If the game wants to be an optimization puzzle, then they ought to look at something like SpaceChem or Factorio as to how these are best done. However, I feel this is instead meant to be complexity for the sake of showing off, "Look how many things you can customize". What it however results in is an endless amount of ideas going to waste on underpowered traits / skills / items / sigils / runes, ideas that if merged, boiled down and optimized could give each class a strong identity. If only for - an important aspect - a lack of options in some areas.

    I have to admit I don't entirely agree with all of your points, but this one I definitely do.

    I'm not a professional game designer, not even close, but after a lot of years playing and thinking about games, I've started to think that most RPGs could be improved by removing boring choices. And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

    Same opinion here. Useless variety is useless, I'd rather not have it in the first place, specially if it's hurting the potential of other skills.

    I think GW2 has good skill numbers, but they sure need a deep redesign, and much more clear roles, specially elite skills. I don't want less skills (right now), but I sure do want them to be less "good for every situation", because then they end up being bad for everything.

    For traits, they could be removed and I wouldn't care. Most of the time they're meaningless. I would prefer simpler system with less options, but options that make a real impact, not just some number buffs.

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Agent Noun.7350 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    Elite specs as a whole are an undercooked concept. To use words which won't get me infracted. Some had elements where you give something up for what you gain. Most are flat upgrades. On the whole, HoT elite specs trivialized all previous PvE and broke the TTL balance in PvP/WvW, which also exaggerates the visibility/fx issues. Nevermind what PoF specs then did.

    Ultimately I think it's okay if elite specs are just plain better than base professions, so long as we add at least a couple more elite specs per profession. When there was only one per profession, making them better than the base profession was a serious problem, because "use this one spec or you're missing out" isn't exactly an interesting decision. With two elite specs per profession, it's a bit better, especially because most elite specs have multiple ways they can be used well.

    Increase that to three or four, though, and I think we're in good shape.

    Sure, ideally the base professions should still have a place, but ultimately I'm more interested in having good build variety than I am in where that variety comes from, if that makes sense.

    I agree that as we get more and more elite specs this problem will start to sort itself out more. I also think that releasing 1 or 2 elite specs on their own, outside of an expansion, would help immensely as it would get us more elite specs faster.

    I generally also agree that its okay if elite specs are better than core spec, however part of the reason that some elite specs are so oppressive is because those single traitlines offer everything, offense/defense/support, and are better at all 3 than core traitlines are. Take chronomancer for example, it offers insane support, while also offering us better damage (now) and insane personal sustain. Or berserker, which has been dialed back a lot now, but when released had huge damage and also huge sustain due to primal burst skills counting as T3 burst while only needing 10 adrenaline to use. This is the fundamental problem with many elite specs, they offer too much of everything. They need to be dialed back to a single focus, like most core traitlines are. They are either damage or support. Either personal sustain or group

    In my opinion, only the core professions should remain "good for everything". Elite specializations should be locked to a specific role each.

  • Nuka Cola.8520Nuka Cola.8520 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't redesign the only reason i came back to the game. Nerf the bunkerness of chrono. Nerf the power burst. Nerf 'some' phantasms. Limit illusions to 3 at any point. If need be, nerf condi more.

    Don't touch anything else or it'll take em another 12 months to 'buff' mesmer to a playable state.

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

    I agree. I'd scrap item stats, but keep sigils/runes. I would maybe consider splitting sigisl into mainhand and offhand sigil and only allowing one of each type on 2H, but not sure on that. In that case, the mainhand could always be one which functionally makes you stronger ("You deal 5% more damage" / "You proc an area heal" / etc), while the offhand could be something which only indirectly gives your attacks more use ("Your AoE skills have a 15 units larger radius" / "when your heals heal only other targets, you also heal yourself for X" / such stuff).
    Runes are interesting as a choose-your-own-setbonus, though I'm not sure keeping them as 1-6 sets is sensible if they only have stats before the 6-piece. Since stats are being removed, it should all be something like:

    Rune of the Mirage
    Your damaging ambush attacks summon clones after the attack connects.
    1 or 2 runes: 1 clone
    3, 4 or 5 runes: 2 clones
    6 runes: 3 clones
    Yes, there are runes which don't improve anything, but that's a reality once stats are removed, I could however mix&match this. I would however massively curb the amount of runes and sigils available, with the removal of stats 90% or so lost their reason to exist in any case. Make it an effective choice between 3-4 runes and 3-4 sigils for each class, that amount can realistically be balanced, too!

    The other big area I'd love a removal of options from is traitlines. Or well, not the lines, but the individual traits. My ideal design would be this:

    • For each class, identify 5 "aspects" of the class. For example for Mesmer it'd be conditions, interrupts, avoidance, reflection and boons.
    • For each aspect, 1 traitline exists to enhance this aspect. Within the traitline the layout is non-standardized. But, most are entirely passive, giving a collection of passive benefits which directly enhance the aspect of the traitline and that's it. Some miiight offer a choice, like the Daredevil line giving you a 1-out-of-3 choice for your dodge type. But it'd be the only thing you choose.
    • You then pick which 3 out of the 5 class aspects your character should focus on. This in turn defines your build, instead of needing to list all picks, you say "Mesmer, Domination/Illusion/Inspiration".
    • Elite specs bring in a whole new aspect, so naturally they're the traitline which also enhanced that aspect. These will again have few if any choices, but will have slightly more passive effets, and in fact in the traitline-UI list the skills they add as skill buttons for convenience. Example Mesmer again, Chronomancer is the "time-dilation"-aspect of the class, Mirage would be "burst".
  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

    I agree. I'd scrap item stats, but keep sigils/runes. I would maybe consider splitting sigisl into mainhand and offhand sigil and only allowing one of each type on 2H, but not sure on that. In that case, the mainhand could always be one which functionally makes you stronger ("You deal 5% more damage" / "You proc an area heal" / etc), while the offhand could be something which only indirectly gives your attacks more use ("Your AoE skills have a 15 units larger radius" / "when your heals heal only other targets, you also heal yourself for X" / such stuff).
    Runes are interesting as a choose-your-own-setbonus, though I'm not sure keeping them as 1-6 sets is sensible if they only have stats before the 6-piece. Since stats are being removed, it should all be something like:

    Rune of the Mirage
    Your damaging ambush attacks summon clones after the attack connects.
    1 or 2 runes: 1 clone
    3, 4 or 5 runes: 2 clones
    6 runes: 3 clones
    Yes, there are runes which don't improve anything, but that's a reality once stats are removed, I could however mix&match this. I would however massively curb the amount of runes and sigils available, with the removal of stats 90% or so lost their reason to exist in any case. Make it an effective choice between 3-4 runes and 3-4 sigils for each class, that amount can realistically be balanced, too!

    The other big area I'd love a removal of options from is traitlines. Or well, not the lines, but the individual traits. My ideal design would be this:

    • For each class, identify 5 "aspects" of the class. For example for Mesmer it'd be conditions, interrupts, avoidance, reflection and boons.
    • For each aspect, 1 traitline exists to enhance this aspect. Within the traitline the layout is non-standardized. But, most are entirely passive, giving a collection of passive benefits which directly enhance the aspect of the traitline and that's it. Some miiight offer a choice, like the Daredevil line giving you a 1-out-of-3 choice for your dodge type. But it'd be the only thing you choose.
    • You then pick which 3 out of the 5 class aspects your character should focus on. This in turn defines your build, instead of needing to list all picks, you say "Mesmer, Domination/Illusion/Inspiration".
    • Elite specs bring in a whole new aspect, so naturally they're the traitline which also enhanced that aspect. These will again have few if any choices, but will have slightly more passive effets, and in fact in the traitline-UI list the skills they add as skill buttons for convenience. Example Mesmer again, Chronomancer is the "time-dilation"-aspect of the class, Mirage would be "burst".

    This is an interesting idea, but not that related to mesmer. You should post it in the general forum to get more feedback on it imo

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    Revisiting the redesign ideas in a short way, plus some new elite specialization ideas to see how this redesign would improve future content too:

    • Mesmer: Shattering is gone. The new mechanic is mirrors, working similarly to scourge shades. Mechanic skill F1 lets you place a mirror in the ground, aesthetically similar to Mirage Mirrors. You have five mirror sets to choose from, and you can equip two at once, swapping between them with the F5 mechanic skill. The mirror sets and their roles are Distortion (applies invulnerability to allies), Diversion (applies daze to enemies, and stun-break to allies), Frustration (applies confusion to enemies, and retaliation to allies), Inversion (transfers enemy boons into allies, and allied conditions into enemies), and Reversion (applies chilled to enemies, and alacrity to allies). The mirror shapes change depending on the active mirror set. Mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4 contain mirror skills, which are determined by the currently equipped set of mirrors. Once used, they affect all active mirrors at once. Mirrors crack a bit each time a mirror skill is used, and they eventually break after a few uses. The skill they break with will have an additional effect boost, making timing and positioning really important for this mechanic. Phantasms are now exclusive to weapon skills, and only last a few seconds. Some mirror skills can summon phantasms as well. Clones are now exclusive to slot skills, and can absorb much more damage. Clones can be shattered using the same slot skill they were summoned with.

    • Chronomancer: Continuum Split is gone, and mirrors are replaced by echoes, a new type of illusion. Echoes respawn automatically, up to a maximum of three, and follow the chronomancer wherever he goes, imitating all his movements with a few seconds of delay each. They deal less damage than the original, but said damage increases when the three of them successfully hit the target. The chronomancer can swap places with the last echo, inheriting his current status and cooldowns, for better or worse. Echoes can be attacked and destroyed, exploding in the process, damaging nearby enemies. Skills including effects, specially wells, see those effects stack and extend when echoes cast them once again. Echoes can be commanded to leave their normal behavior, and instead swarm an enemy target.

    • Mirage: Mirage Cloak is gone, and dodge is instead replaced by a dash movement, with dash distance controlled by the user, consuming more endurance the longer you dash. Ambush skills, available while dodging/dashing, are now less powerful, and can be used multiple times without interrupting the dash. Dashing through a mirror destroys it, regenerating endurance in the process, and letting you dash longer. Correct mirror positioning is key for efficient dash usage. Dashing generates a new resource, used by a new mechanic skill located in the F5 slot, which includes a new burst-like ranged skill tied to the main-hand weapon. Once used, the projectile spawns from both the mirage and each of the active mirrors, which are all destroyed in the process. Damage increases with each successful hit.

    • Redemptor: The new mechanic is artist kits, working similarly to engineer kits. You equip a single kit in mechanic slot F5, and there's three kits to choose from, these being Harp, Flute, and Dancing Fans. The three of them have support roles, and you can equip them freely with no restrictions. Correct timing of kit skills is rewarded with boosted support effects. Both the kit effects and the new shout slot skills reverberate through mirrors, amplifying their effects. The new weapon is the shortbow, partially used like a musical instrument.

    • Bladedancer: Mirrors are gone. New mechanic skill F4 allows the mesmer to temporarily swap to Bladedancing mode, upgrading weapon skills, much like elementalist attunements. Bladedancing weapon skills excel at close combat and direct damage, and include movement options to close distances faster. Bladedancing mode is limited in time, but its duration can be extended by performing combos and dealing damage effectively. Mechanic skills F1, F2, and F3 include three new control skills, including single target fear, immobilize, and taunt. You can weapon swap normally while bladedancing. Daggers are the new weapon, and hallucinogenic venoms are the new slot skills.

    • Inquisitor: You can now use mechanic skill F5 to twist mirrors, swapping the F2, F3, and F4 mirror skills into new abilities and effects. Mirror set swapping is still available while the mirrors are twisted. The twisted mirror sets and their roles are Distortion (enemies receive more damage), Diversion (applies cripple to enemies, and swiftness to allies), Frustration (applies blinded to enemies, and fury to allies), Inversion (multiplies enemy conditions and allied boons), and Reversion (applies slow to enemies, and quickness to allies).

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

    I agree. I'd scrap item stats, but keep sigils/runes. I would maybe consider splitting sigisl into mainhand and offhand sigil and only allowing one of each type on 2H, but not sure on that. In that case, the mainhand could always be one which functionally makes you stronger ("You deal 5% more damage" / "You proc an area heal" / etc), while the offhand could be something which only indirectly gives your attacks more use ("Your AoE skills have a 15 units larger radius" / "when your heals heal only other targets, you also heal yourself for X" / such stuff).
    Runes are interesting as a choose-your-own-setbonus, though I'm not sure keeping them as 1-6 sets is sensible if they only have stats before the 6-piece. Since stats are being removed, it should all be something like:

    Rune of the Mirage
    Your damaging ambush attacks summon clones after the attack connects.
    1 or 2 runes: 1 clone
    3, 4 or 5 runes: 2 clones
    6 runes: 3 clones
    Yes, there are runes which don't improve anything, but that's a reality once stats are removed, I could however mix&match this. I would however massively curb the amount of runes and sigils available, with the removal of stats 90% or so lost their reason to exist in any case. Make it an effective choice between 3-4 runes and 3-4 sigils for each class, that amount can realistically be balanced, too!

    The other big area I'd love a removal of options from is traitlines. Or well, not the lines, but the individual traits. My ideal design would be this:

    • For each class, identify 5 "aspects" of the class. For example for Mesmer it'd be conditions, interrupts, avoidance, reflection and boons.
    • For each aspect, 1 traitline exists to enhance this aspect. Within the traitline the layout is non-standardized. But, most are entirely passive, giving a collection of passive benefits which directly enhance the aspect of the traitline and that's it. Some miiight offer a choice, like the Daredevil line giving you a 1-out-of-3 choice for your dodge type. But it'd be the only thing you choose.
    • You then pick which 3 out of the 5 class aspects your character should focus on. This in turn defines your build, instead of needing to list all picks, you say "Mesmer, Domination/Illusion/Inspiration".
    • Elite specs bring in a whole new aspect, so naturally they're the traitline which also enhanced that aspect. These will again have few if any choices, but will have slightly more passive effets, and in fact in the traitline-UI list the skills they add as skill buttons for convenience. Example Mesmer again, Chronomancer is the "time-dilation"-aspect of the class, Mirage would be "burst".

    This is an interesting idea, but not that related to mesmer. You should post it in the general forum to get more feedback on it imo

    Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting. Would love to see it expanded to general game mechanics.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭

    Bring back denial hexes, and other denial mechanics.

    I like the idea of Null Field for example, but it's much too weak to deal with the current meta. If it had the removal effect changed so that new conditions cannot be applied to allies, and new boons cannot be applied to enemies in the field while it lasts, we'd have something to make mesmers more than just another DPS/CC class.

  • Sodeni.6041Sodeni.6041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Revisiting the redesign ideas in a short way, plus some new elite specialization ideas to see how this redesign would improve future content too:

    • Mesmer: Shattering is gone. The new mechanic is mirrors, working similarly to scourge shades. Mechanic skill F1 lets you place a mirror in the ground, aesthetically similar to Mirage Mirrors. You have five mirror sets to choose from, and you can equip two at once, swapping between them with the F5 mechanic skill. The mirror sets and their roles are Distortion (applies invulnerability to allies), Diversion (applies daze to enemies, and stun-break to allies), Frustration (applies confusion to enemies, and retaliation to allies), Inversion (transfers enemy boons into allies, and allied conditions into enemies), and Reversion (applies chilled to enemies, and alacrity to allies). The mirror shapes change depending on the active mirror set. Mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4 contain mirror skills, which are determined by the currently equipped set of mirrors. Once used, they affect all active mirrors at once. Mirrors crack a bit each time a mirror skill is used, and they eventually break after a few uses. The skill they break with will have an additional effect boost, making timing and positioning really important for this mechanic. Phantasms are now exclusive to weapon skills, and only last a few seconds. Some mirror skills can summon phantasms as well. Clones are now exclusive to slot skills, and can absorb much more damage. Clones can be shattered using the same slot skill they were summoned with.

    • Chronomancer: Continuum Split is gone, and mirrors are replaced by echoes, a new type of illusion. Echoes respawn automatically, up to a maximum of three, and follow the chronomancer wherever he goes, imitating all his movements with a few seconds of delay each. They deal less damage than the original, but said damage increases when the three of them successfully hit the target. The chronomancer can swap places with the last echo, inheriting his current status and cooldowns, for better or worse. Echoes can be attacked and destroyed, exploding in the process, damaging nearby enemies. Skills including effects, specially wells, see those effects stack and extend when echoes cast them once again. Echoes can be commanded to leave their normal behavior, and instead swarm an enemy target.

    • Mirage: Mirage Cloak is gone, and dodge is instead replaced by a dash movement, with dash distance controlled by the user, consuming more endurance the longer you dash. Ambush skills, available while dodging/dashing, are now less powerful, and can be used multiple times without interrupting the dash. Dashing through a mirror destroys it, regenerating endurance in the process, and letting you dash longer. Correct mirror positioning is key for efficient dash usage. Dashing generates a new resource, used by a new mechanic skill located in the F5 slot, which includes a new burst-like ranged skill tied to the main-hand weapon. Once used, the projectile spawns from both the mirage and each of the active mirrors, which are all destroyed in the process. Damage increases with each successful hit.

    • Redemptor: The new mechanic is artist kits, working similarly to engineer kits. You equip a single kit in mechanic slot F5, and there's three kits to choose from, these being Harp, Flute, and Dancing Fans. The three of them have support roles, and you can equip them freely with no restrictions. Correct timing of kit skills is rewarded with boosted support effects. Both the kit effects and the new shout slot skills reverberate through mirrors, amplifying their effects. The new weapon is the shortbow, partially used like a musical instrument.

    • Bladedancer: Mirrors are gone. New mechanic skill F4 allows the mesmer to temporarily swap to Bladedancing mode, upgrading weapon skills, much like elementalist attunements. Bladedancing weapon skills excel at close combat and direct damage, and include movement options to close distances faster. Bladedancing mode is limited in time, but its duration can be extended by performing combos and dealing damage effectively. Mechanic skills F1, F2, and F3 include three new control skills, including single target fear, immobilize, and taunt. You can weapon swap normally while bladedancing. Daggers are the new weapon, and hallucinogenic venoms are the new slot skills.

    • Inquisitor: You can now use mechanic skill F5 to twist mirrors, swapping the F2, F3, and F4 mirror skills into new abilities and effects. Mirror set swapping is still available while the mirrors are twisted. The twisted mirror sets and their roles are Distortion (enemies receive more damage), Diversion (applies cripple to enemies, and swiftness to allies), Frustration (applies blinded to enemies, and fury to allies), Inversion (multiplies enemy conditions and allied boons), and Reversion (applies slow to enemies, and quickness to allies).

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

    I agree. I'd scrap item stats, but keep sigils/runes. I would maybe consider splitting sigisl into mainhand and offhand sigil and only allowing one of each type on 2H, but not sure on that. In that case, the mainhand could always be one which functionally makes you stronger ("You deal 5% more damage" / "You proc an area heal" / etc), while the offhand could be something which only indirectly gives your attacks more use ("Your AoE skills have a 15 units larger radius" / "when your heals heal only other targets, you also heal yourself for X" / such stuff).
    Runes are interesting as a choose-your-own-setbonus, though I'm not sure keeping them as 1-6 sets is sensible if they only have stats before the 6-piece. Since stats are being removed, it should all be something like:

    Rune of the Mirage
    Your damaging ambush attacks summon clones after the attack connects.
    1 or 2 runes: 1 clone
    3, 4 or 5 runes: 2 clones
    6 runes: 3 clones
    Yes, there are runes which don't improve anything, but that's a reality once stats are removed, I could however mix&match this. I would however massively curb the amount of runes and sigils available, with the removal of stats 90% or so lost their reason to exist in any case. Make it an effective choice between 3-4 runes and 3-4 sigils for each class, that amount can realistically be balanced, too!

    The other big area I'd love a removal of options from is traitlines. Or well, not the lines, but the individual traits. My ideal design would be this:

    • For each class, identify 5 "aspects" of the class. For example for Mesmer it'd be conditions, interrupts, avoidance, reflection and boons.
    • For each aspect, 1 traitline exists to enhance this aspect. Within the traitline the layout is non-standardized. But, most are entirely passive, giving a collection of passive benefits which directly enhance the aspect of the traitline and that's it. Some miiight offer a choice, like the Daredevil line giving you a 1-out-of-3 choice for your dodge type. But it'd be the only thing you choose.
    • You then pick which 3 out of the 5 class aspects your character should focus on. This in turn defines your build, instead of needing to list all picks, you say "Mesmer, Domination/Illusion/Inspiration".
    • Elite specs bring in a whole new aspect, so naturally they're the traitline which also enhanced that aspect. These will again have few if any choices, but will have slightly more passive effets, and in fact in the traitline-UI list the skills they add as skill buttons for convenience. Example Mesmer again, Chronomancer is the "time-dilation"-aspect of the class, Mirage would be "burst".

    This is an interesting idea, but not that related to mesmer. You should post it in the general forum to get more feedback on it imo

    Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting. Would love to see it expanded to general game mechanics.

    Very interesting ideas!

    I am a big fan of Scourge's shades because I love to have lots of AoE attacks. Would love to see your concepts ingame!

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm mostly really happy with all aspects of mesmer. If there anything I'd like to see its Mirage utilities being redesigned. Mirage deception skills are all some of the most boring skills in the game.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Leodon.1564Leodon.1564 Member ✭✭

    Not make Mesmer based on confusing your enemies. The better we do it, the louder the cries for nerfs.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Bring back denial hexes, and other denial mechanics.

    I like the idea of Null Field for example, but it's much too weak to deal with the current meta. If it had the removal effect changed so that new conditions cannot be applied to allies, and new boons cannot be applied to enemies in the field while it lasts, we'd have something to make mesmers more than just another DPS/CC class.

    The way casting worked there is no longer the general rule, so I'm not sure if the interrupt-based gameplay would work anymore. Same for punishing resource usage and such, since now we no longer have a common resource either.

    I don't know, I never got invested enough in GW1 to understand how mesmer worked there beyond those two things. Mind elaborating?

    @Sodeni.6041 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Revisiting the redesign ideas in a short way, plus some new elite specialization ideas to see how this redesign would improve future content too:

    • Mesmer: Shattering is gone. The new mechanic is mirrors, working similarly to scourge shades. Mechanic skill F1 lets you place a mirror in the ground, aesthetically similar to Mirage Mirrors. You have five mirror sets to choose from, and you can equip two at once, swapping between them with the F5 mechanic skill. The mirror sets and their roles are Distortion (applies invulnerability to allies), Diversion (applies daze to enemies, and stun-break to allies), Frustration (applies confusion to enemies, and retaliation to allies), Inversion (transfers enemy boons into allies, and allied conditions into enemies), and Reversion (applies chilled to enemies, and alacrity to allies). The mirror shapes change depending on the active mirror set. Mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4 contain mirror skills, which are determined by the currently equipped set of mirrors. Once used, they affect all active mirrors at once. Mirrors crack a bit each time a mirror skill is used, and they eventually break after a few uses. The skill they break with will have an additional effect boost, making timing and positioning really important for this mechanic. Phantasms are now exclusive to weapon skills, and only last a few seconds. Some mirror skills can summon phantasms as well. Clones are now exclusive to slot skills, and can absorb much more damage. Clones can be shattered using the same slot skill they were summoned with.

    • Chronomancer: Continuum Split is gone, and mirrors are replaced by echoes, a new type of illusion. Echoes respawn automatically, up to a maximum of three, and follow the chronomancer wherever he goes, imitating all his movements with a few seconds of delay each. They deal less damage than the original, but said damage increases when the three of them successfully hit the target. The chronomancer can swap places with the last echo, inheriting his current status and cooldowns, for better or worse. Echoes can be attacked and destroyed, exploding in the process, damaging nearby enemies. Skills including effects, specially wells, see those effects stack and extend when echoes cast them once again. Echoes can be commanded to leave their normal behavior, and instead swarm an enemy target.

    • Mirage: Mirage Cloak is gone, and dodge is instead replaced by a dash movement, with dash distance controlled by the user, consuming more endurance the longer you dash. Ambush skills, available while dodging/dashing, are now less powerful, and can be used multiple times without interrupting the dash. Dashing through a mirror destroys it, regenerating endurance in the process, and letting you dash longer. Correct mirror positioning is key for efficient dash usage. Dashing generates a new resource, used by a new mechanic skill located in the F5 slot, which includes a new burst-like ranged skill tied to the main-hand weapon. Once used, the projectile spawns from both the mirage and each of the active mirrors, which are all destroyed in the process. Damage increases with each successful hit.

    • Redemptor: The new mechanic is artist kits, working similarly to engineer kits. You equip a single kit in mechanic slot F5, and there's three kits to choose from, these being Harp, Flute, and Dancing Fans. The three of them have support roles, and you can equip them freely with no restrictions. Correct timing of kit skills is rewarded with boosted support effects. Both the kit effects and the new shout slot skills reverberate through mirrors, amplifying their effects. The new weapon is the shortbow, partially used like a musical instrument.

    • Bladedancer: Mirrors are gone. New mechanic skill F4 allows the mesmer to temporarily swap to Bladedancing mode, upgrading weapon skills, much like elementalist attunements. Bladedancing weapon skills excel at close combat and direct damage, and include movement options to close distances faster. Bladedancing mode is limited in time, but its duration can be extended by performing combos and dealing damage effectively. Mechanic skills F1, F2, and F3 include three new control skills, including single target fear, immobilize, and taunt. You can weapon swap normally while bladedancing. Daggers are the new weapon, and hallucinogenic venoms are the new slot skills.

    • Inquisitor: You can now use mechanic skill F5 to twist mirrors, swapping the F2, F3, and F4 mirror skills into new abilities and effects. Mirror set swapping is still available while the mirrors are twisted. The twisted mirror sets and their roles are Distortion (enemies receive more damage), Diversion (applies cripple to enemies, and swiftness to allies), Frustration (applies blinded to enemies, and fury to allies), Inversion (multiplies enemy conditions and allied boons), and Reversion (applies slow to enemies, and quickness to allies).

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    And personally, I think a lot of GW2's stats are boring. I'm not a fan of "just plain do more damage" stats, so naturally I don't love Power or Condition Damage; combine that with Power being functionally worthless unless it's also paired with Precision, which is lackluster unless it's combined with Ferocity, and there just isn't much of interest do to there.

    By extension, I think traits, runes, and sigils do have the potential to be interesting. Many aren't right now, but traits and items that let you actually do new things or that meaningfully modify how your existing actions work are interesting build choices. If I had my way, GW2 would scrap stats entirely (much like GW1) and focus more on increasing the gameplay variety that sigils, runes, and traits offer. That won't happen, of course--it'd require a total rework of the equipment system so large it'd almost be a new game, for one thing--but hey, I can dream.

    I agree. I'd scrap item stats, but keep sigils/runes. I would maybe consider splitting sigisl into mainhand and offhand sigil and only allowing one of each type on 2H, but not sure on that. In that case, the mainhand could always be one which functionally makes you stronger ("You deal 5% more damage" / "You proc an area heal" / etc), while the offhand could be something which only indirectly gives your attacks more use ("Your AoE skills have a 15 units larger radius" / "when your heals heal only other targets, you also heal yourself for X" / such stuff).
    Runes are interesting as a choose-your-own-setbonus, though I'm not sure keeping them as 1-6 sets is sensible if they only have stats before the 6-piece. Since stats are being removed, it should all be something like:

    Rune of the Mirage
    Your damaging ambush attacks summon clones after the attack connects.
    1 or 2 runes: 1 clone
    3, 4 or 5 runes: 2 clones
    6 runes: 3 clones
    Yes, there are runes which don't improve anything, but that's a reality once stats are removed, I could however mix&match this. I would however massively curb the amount of runes and sigils available, with the removal of stats 90% or so lost their reason to exist in any case. Make it an effective choice between 3-4 runes and 3-4 sigils for each class, that amount can realistically be balanced, too!

    The other big area I'd love a removal of options from is traitlines. Or well, not the lines, but the individual traits. My ideal design would be this:

    • For each class, identify 5 "aspects" of the class. For example for Mesmer it'd be conditions, interrupts, avoidance, reflection and boons.
    • For each aspect, 1 traitline exists to enhance this aspect. Within the traitline the layout is non-standardized. But, most are entirely passive, giving a collection of passive benefits which directly enhance the aspect of the traitline and that's it. Some miiight offer a choice, like the Daredevil line giving you a 1-out-of-3 choice for your dodge type. But it'd be the only thing you choose.
    • You then pick which 3 out of the 5 class aspects your character should focus on. This in turn defines your build, instead of needing to list all picks, you say "Mesmer, Domination/Illusion/Inspiration".
    • Elite specs bring in a whole new aspect, so naturally they're the traitline which also enhanced that aspect. These will again have few if any choices, but will have slightly more passive effets, and in fact in the traitline-UI list the skills they add as skill buttons for convenience. Example Mesmer again, Chronomancer is the "time-dilation"-aspect of the class, Mirage would be "burst".

    This is an interesting idea, but not that related to mesmer. You should post it in the general forum to get more feedback on it imo

    Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting. Would love to see it expanded to general game mechanics.

    Very interesting ideas!

    I am a big fan of Scourge's shades because I love to have lots of AoE attacks. Would love to see your concepts ingame!

    Glad you liked it! I think a mechanic such like this would fit mesmer pretty well. The potential for strategic positioning and combos is really great.

    Some popular slot skills could be moved to the mechanic as well, like the portal. Maybe some of the other Glamour skills too, like Null Field and Feedback. It would make the mirrors far more interesting, that's for sure. In that case, Glamour slot skills would disappear, getting replaced by something else.

    Alternatively, we could have one mirror set based on each slot skill type too, instead of just 5 somewhat random types.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I'm mostly really happy with all aspects of mesmer. If there anything I'd like to see its Mirage utilities being redesigned. Mirage deception skills are all some of the most boring skills in the game.

    Are you happy with the elite specialization mechanics of the mirage? Don't you feel like they're missing something?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I'm mostly really happy with all aspects of mesmer. If there anything I'd like to see its Mirage utilities being redesigned. Mirage deception skills are all some of the most boring skills in the game.

    Are you happy with the elite specialization mechanics of the mirage? Don't you feel like they're missing something?

    I'm mostly okay with Mirage. The Mirage Cloak, Ambush Attacks, Mirage Mirrors, and the ability to do actions while dodge rolling are fun and immensely powerful and play into Mirage's real theme of Intangibility (Mirage is not really about being more deceptive with clones the way the trailers presented, at least not in execution.).

    Actually having sat down to think about it, I actually don't dislike the Mirage Utilities anymore so much as they're just muscled out by far better core Utilities

    Blink and Portal in SPvP are just so nonnegotiable. And in PvE Signet of Domination and Midnight are completely nonnegotiable and I think this bothers me more. Portal in particular defines mesmer so much in SPvP that I don't really want it to change much. But Signet of Domination and Midnight being these boring DPS passives on your bar really hinder a more interesting play style and rotation in PvE (In WvW they're amazing because portal is less relevant for the game mode for a roamer and their passives are useful in WvW, but the actives are super useful).

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Bring back denial hexes, and other denial mechanics.

    I like the idea of Null Field for example, but it's much too weak to deal with the current meta. If it had the removal effect changed so that new conditions cannot be applied to allies, and new boons cannot be applied to enemies in the field while it lasts, we'd have something to make mesmers more than just another DPS/CC class.

    The way casting worked there is no longer the general rule, so I'm not sure if the interrupt-based gameplay would work anymore. Same for punishing resource usage and such, since now we no longer have a common resource either.

    I don't know, I never got invested enough in GW1 to understand how mesmer worked there beyond those two things. Mind elaborating?

    I think a few classic examples might give some idea.

    Backfire
    Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, whenever target foe casts a spell, that foe takes 35...119...140 damage.

    Empathy
    Hex Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes 10...46...55 damage and deals 1...12...15 less damage.

    Diversion
    Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill takes an additional 10...47...56 seconds to recharge.

    Wastrel's Worry
    Hex Spell. After 3 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes take 20...84...100 damage. If that foe successfully uses a skill, Wastrel's Worry ends prematurely and does no damage.

    Hex Breaker
    Stance. For 5...65...80 seconds, the next time you are the target of a hex, that hex fails and the caster takes 10...39...46 damage.

    Air of Disenchantment
    Elite Hex Spell. Remove one enchantment from target foe and all nearby foes. For 5...17...20 seconds, enchantments expire 150...270...300% faster on those foes.

    Clumsiness
    Hex Spell. For 4 seconds, target and adjacent foes are hexed with Clumsiness. The next time each foe attacks, the attack is interrupted and that foe suffers 10...76...92 damage.

    Beyond simply interrupting and draining energy, it also had a role in preventing certain types of skills from working normally, or forcing an opponent to make choices between two bad options (losing a skill for 50 seconds to Diversion, or taking damage from Wastrel's Worry). Air of Disenchantment, in GW2 terms, gave a negative boon duration debuff, which is an area where the GW2 mesmer could have gone but didn't.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2018

    I would redesigned it to be more like https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Phantom_Lancer

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

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