Concerns about using anything but sword for Holosmith

According to the Wiki, which only knows so much at the moment about the new elite specs.Sword is the only weapon that gains benefits of heat levels.

Weaver/Ele had dual attacks created for all weapons, is it not fair that with Holosmith equipped that we should have all our weapons get benefits from heat level like the sword does?

Furthermore, I have concerns with being only melee in the case that the sword is the only heat viable weapon for Holosmith.Not every fight can be fought in melee range and some fights it is just better/more effective to be at a range, this causes me to either carry around a spare rifle in my inventory or choose to use a kit.Going power based for the Holosmith would result in many of the kits being practically useless because they all involve condi and the most effective of the lot to power in terms of utility skills would be the Elixir Gun. Even the Mortar Gun possesses a ton of condi, but on top of that fact it is also the fact that many of these ranged options, aside from the Elixir Gun require so many AOE attacks and in many fights that is just not a viable ranged option because for many people that requires you to stand still if you have so many AOE's.

To make the kits flow better and make it worth while for someone, particularly on a power based build to choose for a ranged option, would be to turn some skills into non-aoe skills.Examples:Mortar Skill 1 [MORTAR SHOT] would be better off as an auto-attack.Mortar Skill 4 [FLASH SHELL] could be turned into a simple click attack that automatically attacks the person you are targeted to.Grenade Skill 1 [GRENADE] could also be an auto attack.Grenade Skill 3 [FLASH GRENADE] could be turned into a simple click attack that automatically attacks the person you are targeted to.

By also changing the blinding skills into abilities that automatically attack your target and those in the radius around your target, it allows someone a safe window of opportunity to place their condi AOE's if they use the for condi.In changing the abilities to auto attacks/clicks attacks, the base damage on them can be slightly reduced on them in turn for more likely chance of direct hits to targets and their ease of use. Mortar skills 1 and 4 would lose some range in return for the skills, from 1500 to 1200.

In general, if you want a power build that covers both melee and ranged but utilizing hammer/kit or sword-shield/kit then you are left with very minimal option and even less so if you want one that requires less technical difficulty with having to target the aoe, that leaves you with the Elixir gun as the only viable option and even that is sub-par due to it being so heavily related to condi for bleed and poison skills. The condi clear skills are a useful utility to have via the Elixir Gun.

Also, by adding heat level effects to all weapons, it increases the chance of more build variety.

I found rifle to be far better for holosmith duing the test. Sword seemed to suffer from long after casts with less CC, mobility, and less consistent damage in comparison. The only plus side I found to using sword was that I could have a block and reflect with the shield offhand, but I still wouldn't recommend it. However, the issue with adding heat to rifle and other weapons may potentially mean they'd be too strong with holomancer but too weak without. This could create disastrous balance where the weapons essentially become only functional with holomancer. I'm against adding elite-spec specific functions to core-setups for this reason. I would rather see a baseline buff to the weapons instead of a heat-mechanic focus so that the weapons become more viable outside and inside of holo, which I believe is more reasonable. As for the comparison with weaver skills, they essentially lost the skills that'd normally be in that third slot as well, which I see as essentially trading one skill for another (not a nerf or a buff) whereas adding a heat function to core-skills would simply be a buff with no trade off.As for kits, I think they're fine as they are. TK is heavily underrated and EG has an answer to a lot of engineer's issues. Nades and bombs I don't see being too good with holomancer in general even if they are buffed mainly because photon forge is more than enough damage at the same effective range, and it's better to slot something that'll keep you alive instead. These kits are still strong and viable in core-engineer setups where they require this damage to compensate.Also, auto targeting on grenades is already kind of a thing with the ground targeting options, and it's generally proven to be less-consistent than just manually aiming them.

I tried some viper holo with double pistols and it worked well.

@Twigifire.8379 said:I found rifle to be far better for holosmith duing the test. Sword seemed to suffer from long after casts with less CC, mobility, and less consistent damage in comparison. The only plus side I found to using sword was that I could have a block and reflect with the shield offhand, but I still wouldn't recommend it. However, the issue with adding heat to rifle and other weapons may potentially mean they'd be too strong with holomancer but too weak without. This could create disastrous balance where the weapons essentially become only functional with holomancer. I'm against adding elite-spec specific functions to core-setups for this reason. I would rather see a baseline buff to the weapons instead of a heat-mechanic focus so that the weapons become more viable outside and inside of holo, which I believe is more reasonable. As for the comparison with weaver skills, they essentially lost the skills that'd normally be in that third slot as well, which I see as essentially trading one skill for another (not a nerf or a buff) whereas adding a heat function to core-skills would simply be a buff with no trade off....

There's just no chance Engi weapons would be OP with the types of minor heat bonuses the Exceed/Sword skills got. We're looking at something in the realm of "Pistol #1 now has 1 extra bleed stack @ >50% heat" or "Rifle #1 now has +100% projectile speed" (that one is actually a real heat bonus :dissapointed: ). While I've seen some great ideas for added mechanics to core weapons here on the forums and elsewhere, looking at what would realistically be done just wouldn't be overpowered. It would be a nice added extra for a bit more damage, or a bit longer immobilize, etc. Nothing ground breaking.

While buffing Engi weapons at baseline sounds good on the surface, I think this would result in nerfs across other areas to compensate. Like it or not (plenty of us don't) Engi weapons are just not balanced to be strong due to the access of so many skills through kits. I think there's a good opportunity to allow some small buffs only when spec'd into Holosmith... since it appears to be a spec that can play well without kits. Why not give us a little more incentive to not use kits and make the other weapons a little stronger with heat level?

You could even argue about the Sword Heat bonuses being useless in several cases:

Sword 1 Heat bonuses increase critical strike chance. Running Berserkers, you have 50% crit. Adding fury and the firearm traits, you have 90% crit.The 50% bonuses can at most add 10% crit, whereas the 100% bonus is guaruanteed to be useless in nearly every scenario.

Sword 2 requires either a very big hitbox, so all projectiles hit the same target, but generally i'd expect a large number of them to just go into the air.

Sword 3 is useless anywhere you can get 100% quickness uptime.

Instead of adding heat bonuses to all weapons, why not just remove them from Sword. They hardly matter.

@kaesebrezen.3104 said:You could even argue about the Sword Heat bonuses being useless in several cases:

Sword 1 Heat bonuses increase critical strike chance. Running Berserkers, you have 50% crit. Adding fury and the firearm traits, you have 90% crit.The 50% bonuses can at most add 10% crit, whereas the 100% bonus is guaruanteed to be useless in nearly every scenario.

Sword 2 requires either a very big hitbox, so all projectiles hit the same target, but generally i'd expect a large number of them to just go into the air.

Sword 3 is useless anywhere you can get 100% quickness uptime.

Instead of adding heat bonuses to all weapons, why not just remove them from Sword. They hardly matter.

Well wouldn't that warrant improvements to the sword then, if it is so useless even with the heat bonus?And if the heat bonus is so negligible, then adding it to the other weapons shouldn't be so bad anyway.

OP you're suffering from too much theorycraft and not enough practical knowledge. You didn't specify a pure PvE scenario so I'll try to look at Engi weapons from a game wide perspective..

Bringing Sword might be fine in PvE but in actually practically using it vs. sentient enemies, while having an extra heat bonus it's still vastly inferior in offensive utility. This means that the core weapons are not in trash territory - in cases of non A.I enemies, they're better. While I'm in favor of adding Holosmith heat bonuses to core weapons, the power gain would have to be shaved off of Photon Forge to compensate. Another negative side effect of that suggestion is further raising the opportunity cost of running Sword in PvP/WvW, making it even more crappy broken/unbalanced. Sword needs further buffs in offensive/defensive utility, I wish the 2 and 3 skills could just be scrapped and started over.

Also your comments about how going power based will make kits like Mortar, Elixir Gun & Tool Kit ineffective simply because they have a few piddly conditions of no consequence that aren't maximized, clearly you haven't actually used them in a power build - they're great. You're under no obligation to run a hybrid/condition build to scale 2 stacks of bleed, 1-5 stacks of poison, or confusion from Pry Bar.

@Chaith.8256 said:OP you're suffering from too much theorycraft and not enough practical knowledge. You didn't specify a pure PvE scenario so I'll try to look at Engi weapons from a game wide perspective..

Bringing Sword might be fine in PvE but in actually practically using it vs. sentient enemies, while having an extra heat bonus it's still vastly inferior in offensive utility. This means that the core weapons are not in trash territory - in cases of non A.I enemies, they're better. While I'm in favor of adding Holosmith heat bonuses to core weapons, the power gain would have to be shaved off of Photon Forge to compensate. Another negative side effect of that suggestion is further raising the opportunity cost of running Sword in PvP/WvW, making it even more crappy broken/unbalanced. Sword needs further buffs in offensive/defensive utility, I wish the 2 and 3 skills could just be scrapped and started over.

Also your comments about how going power based will make kits like Mortar, Elixir Gun & Tool Kit ineffective simply because they have a few piddly conditions of no consequence that aren't maximized, clearly you haven't actually used them in a power build - they're great. You're under no obligation to run a hybrid/condition build to scale 2 stacks of bleed, 1-5 stacks of poison, or confusion from Pry Bar.

I don't so much care about the conditions on them. I am fine to have the stay there.I dislike significantly that there is only one weapon kit at ranged that isn't just all placing AOE's, which leaves only the Elixir Gun with auto-attack/clickable activation attacks as my option unless I want to carry around a rifle in my inventory and switch out, which I certainly don't want to do.If I choose to with a rifle build, which I am fine with doing still leaves the fact that if I come across a projectile reflect or just feel I would be better off served with melee, I suppose I would have to use the tool kit. It is more that I like to have both ranged and melee options on most classes and that even though it is somewhat possible, they feel like they lack still.It also feels disappointing that the ranged with toolkit option for melee feels better than the sword/shield with any of the ranged options besides Elixir Gun.

Yes engineer is far from having many ranged options. Rifle, Nades, eGun #1, mortar, all reflectable and only nades can be a main source of damage. If you want

Lol @ needing tool kit to DPS if you encounter reflects...core engi scrapper and holo all have better options. Just photon forge 3521111 and problem solved.

Edit: No matter what combo of weapons and kits you bring you will have enough skills to be busy during a reflect. Have rifle, nades and mortar?? Blunderbus, Jump Shot, poison grenade, orbital strike

All of those besides rifle have horrendous sustained DPS in a PvE setting. Rifle is even suboptimal at range, so it is true engineers have no strong ranged options in PvE.

@Zenith.7301 said:All of those besides rifle have horrendous sustained DPS in a PvE setting. Rifle is even suboptimal at range, so it is true engineers have no strong ranged options in PvE.

Grenade Kit does not have horrible DPS.

@lorddarkflare.9186 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:All of those besides rifle have horrendous sustained DPS in a PvE setting. Rifle is even suboptimal at range, so it is true engineers have no strong ranged options in PvE.

But they are all AOE skills that require you to place them yourself. I can't be the only one out there who is a full on "clicker", I use my mouse to click everything from 1 - 0 and my F1 to F5 where applicable. Sometimes if I am really overwhelmed I can use my fingers on the keyboard to activate abilities but overall, my fingers do not spread a long a keyboard well and thus I am a mouse user, a clicker. Due to this, placing aoe's is not the easiest thing, so having kits that are built solely around having to place AOE's just does not work for me especially because I dislike standing still which is what I would have to do to place these abilities, so if I try moving I will probably lose DPS in the process, which means Grenade and Mortar are out of the question. So I have to choose rifle and use a tool kit because that is the only melee option if I want to have a ranged weapon equipped. I could use bombs but the gameplay would still require me to stand still more often and seems quite stale.The engineer class, if you want to cover all your bases seems rather unfriendly to certain players, particularly ones that have trouble with AOE placement only.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@lorddarkflare.9186 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:All of those besides rifle have horrendous sustained DPS in a PvE setting. Rifle is even suboptimal at range, so it is true engineers have no strong ranged options in PvE.

turn yourself into not a clicker. make a better key layout. i highly recommend the use of 1-3 shift keys along with 5-7 main keybinds so you can turn 6 keys into 10 or 10 keys into 21. or get a gaming mouse with 6+ thumb buttons.

playing engi well practically requires this. i was a partial clicker like 4 years ago and i could feel the limitations of my play and it was extremely frustrating. i will not go back to it even if i get stuck with a standard 5 button mouse at some point. 2 of those buttons can be mapped as shift keys and ill relearn my 1s-5s if my mouse ever busts and i dont replace it. and itll make it easier to play ele when coming from engi.

its helped me learn to play and be better at other games quicker and easier too. and hate them when they have a bunch of classes and keybinds are character bound lol

@insanemaniac.2456 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@lorddarkflare.9186 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:All of those besides rifle have horrendous sustained DPS in a PvE setting. Rifle is even suboptimal at range, so it is true engineers have no strong ranged options in PvE.

I already have a gaming mouse, not one with as many thumb buttons because those are usually expensive as all hell.This is game is designed for people of all sorts, including casuals. No one should have to go out and buy a mouse just so they can actually do something in a game.I tried changing certain things to Q and E. I tried better key layouts. This just does not work for me. I have tried a ton of MMO's and I have been a clicker in all of them, furthermore this has now become the only MMO I really play because it feels like the only one worth it, the rest of the time I spend playing usually things that usually require less key usage and half of those are bound to my mouse.Besides this, I have tried action cam and auto lock on and it felt terrible to fight this way but on rare occasion I press the hot keys I assigned to switch it up when the need calls for it, including on other classes. As a clicker, action cam causes me to use very few of my abilities which renders it worthless to me. The auto-lock feature worked to an extent but because you can't place it freely, you don't necessarily get to predict the best area to deal the most damage.

Is it really fair that so many good abilities are rendered useless to people who are well known to exist in the MMO community?It's not even that we can't use the odd AOE here and there, it's that we become less effective when we are forced to try and use too many because that is the only option there is.

I participate in all aspects of the game and manage my clicker-ness well most of the time because there is not a class that equips something that is only AOE except for the engineer.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:I already have a gaming mouse, not one with as many thumb buttons because those are usually expensive as all kitten.This is game is designed for people of all sorts, including casuals. No one should have to go out and buy a mouse just so they can actually do something in a game.

A mouse with buttons on the side isn't that much. Grenade Kit isn't going to change for you. What you're describing is not "casual". Casual players play the game and learn the abilities. They will use AOE. What you're describing is entitled.

Is it really fair that so many good abilities are rendered useless to people who are well known to exist in the MMO community?

It's funny you would use the word "fair", what is fair about modifying the Profession so everyone else has to use an inferior version just to suit your desire?

@hellsqueen.3045 said:I already have a gaming mouse, not one with as many thumb buttons because those are usually expensive as all kitten.This is game is designed for people of all sorts, including casuals. No one should have to go out and buy a mouse just so they can actually do something in a game.I tried changing certain things to Q and E. I tried better key layouts. This just does not work for me. I have tried a ton of MMO's and I have been a clicker in all of them, furthermore this has now become the only MMO I really play because it feels like the only one worth it, the rest of the time I spend playing usually things that usually require less key usage and half of those are bound to my mouse.Besides this, I have tried action cam and auto lock on and it felt terrible to fight this way but on rare occasion I press the hot keys I assigned to switch it up when the need calls for it, including on other classes. As a clicker, action cam causes me to use very few of my abilities which renders it worthless to me. The auto-lock feature worked to an extent but because you can't place it freely, you don't necessarily get to predict the best area to deal the most damage.

Is it really fair that so many good abilities are rendered useless to people who are well known to exist in the MMO community?It's not even that we can't use the odd AOE here and there, it's that we become less effective when we are forced to try and use too many because that is the only option there is.

I participate in all aspects of the game and manage my clicker-ness well most of the time because there is not a class that equips something that is only AOE except for the engineer.

personally I can't stand action cam. it drives me away from tera, eso, and the myriad of fps shooters. a lot of people love it and I won't pretend to understand why. I just can't attach looking to targeting to save a button and a thread of attention and be happy. not since playing lol, d3, and gw2.

I also use qwes instead of wasd. and other games not having buttons to turn got me used to not needing key turning in gw2, and I've unbound my a and d keys which used to be turns and I don't miss them. with pof theyre gonna be used for mount skills for me.

my fiancee won't play on my keybinds cuz she thinks they're too far from normal now and just unusable. and it took a long time to develop muscle memory and get used to. but it's like picking up a foreign language, the best way to learn is just go live there so you don't have the option to not learn... it took me a long time to stop clicking my 7 utility, but it's been so long now that I can't remember the last time I clicked any utility.

and it's not just about finding something that someone else tells you is better and using it. you gotta find what's comfortable for you and make it your own. and you've prolly done that with clicking, I know I did, I know my fiancee does and she does it so well you'd be surprised to find that out about her... but it has its limitations with reaction time for ground targets, as you see.

idk, the solution is there and is more than adequate. whether you're casual or not. games should be about having fun. you have the tools to make your play better and easier and more fun, they just aren't advertised with a big flashing neon sign cuz anets gotta give us a one size fits all keyboard layout starting point just like any other game oughta.

you say you've tried things. but have you tried things for 3 weeks or for a day? a day isn't enough.

@insanemaniac.2456 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:I already have a gaming mouse, not one with as many thumb buttons because those are usually expensive as all kitten.This is game is designed for people of all sorts, including casuals. No one should have to go out and buy a mouse just so they can actually do something in a game.I tried changing certain things to Q and E. I tried better key layouts. This just does not work for me. I have tried a ton of MMO's and I have been a clicker in all of them, furthermore this has now become the only MMO I really play because it feels like the only one worth it, the rest of the time I spend playing usually things that usually require less key usage and half of those are bound to my mouse.Besides this, I have tried action cam and auto lock on and it felt terrible to fight this way but on rare occasion I press the hot keys I assigned to switch it up when the need calls for it, including on other classes. As a clicker, action cam causes me to use very few of my abilities which renders it worthless to me. The auto-lock feature worked to an extent but because you can't place it freely, you don't necessarily get to predict the best area to deal the most damage.

Is it really fair that so many good abilities are rendered useless to people who are well known to exist in the MMO community?It's not even that we can't use the odd AOE here and there, it's that we become less effective when we are forced to try and use too many because that is the only option there is.

I participate in all aspects of the game and manage my clicker-ness well most of the time because there is not a class that equips something that is only AOE except for the engineer.

I spend time trying things in PvE for about a week at a time making multiple adjustments and I try and force myself to use the new binds but I perform a lot worse, it's like my coordination when it comes to using the keyboard is really off.I am not inclined to try them in PvP or WvW combat because they make me worse.In raids, I have a different keybinds set depending on the raid. For example, the most recent raid (even though we didn't succeed) I have to move the dash key onto my mouse because I need much speedier access too it. That was comfortable for that moment because it was an AOE based movement skill that dash just didn't work for it to be on dash.As I said, I can manage with a few AOE based skills here are there, but the grenade and mortar kit are just too far beyond because the limit my damage output because there are no other skills being used during AOE placement.I'd rather be a clicker and feel my strongest than try and force myself into something that causes me to be a whole lot worse, I can make things work but it is just unfortunate that Engineer seems to be the only class that has these few set abilities that are on the unfriendly side to clickers.I'll just use rifle and tool kit as a melee option, I am sure plenty more of adjustments will need to be had in future, especially as new updates come out. I mean they introduced an ammo system, so they aren't afraid of changing things that could act as huge improvements.

Logitech G600 can be bought for less than $40.

Weapon + kit skills on mouse side buttons.Tool belt skills on keyboard 1-5.Utility skills on Q / E / R / X

1 to 1 mapping from all skills to physical keys, all easily accessible.You can even turn on action camera and just left click to use your grenade auto. It's incredibly satisfying.

@Twigifire.8379 said:I found rifle to be far better for holosmith duing the test. Sword seemed to suffer from long after casts with less CC, mobility, and less consistent damage in comparison. The only plus side I found to using sword was that I could have a block and reflect with the shield offhand, but I still wouldn't recommend it. However, the issue with adding heat to rifle and other weapons may potentially mean they'd be too strong with holomancer but too weak without. This could create disastrous balance where the weapons essentially become only functional with holomancer. I'm against adding elite-spec specific functions to core-setups for this reason. I would rather see a baseline buff to the weapons instead of a heat-mechanic focus so that the weapons become more viable outside and inside of holo, which I believe is more reasonable. As for the comparison with weaver skills, they essentially lost the skills that'd normally be in that third slot as well, which I see as essentially trading one skill for another (not a nerf or a buff) whereas adding a heat function to core-skills would simply be a buff with no trade off.As for kits, I think they're fine as they are. TK is heavily underrated and EG has an answer to a lot of engineer's issues. Nades and bombs I don't see being too good with holomancer in general even if they are buffed mainly because photon forge is more than enough damage at the same effective range, and it's better to slot something that'll keep you alive instead. These kits are still strong and viable in core-engineer setups where they require this damage to compensate.Also, auto targeting on grenades is already kind of a thing with the ground targeting options, and it's generally proven to be less-consistent than just manually aiming them.

Weaver didn't lose any skill as they can still double attune to any element and they will have access to the normal 5 skills

@lorddarkflare.9186 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:All of those besides rifle have horrendous sustained DPS in a PvE setting. Rifle is even suboptimal at range, so it is true engineers have no strong ranged options in PvE.

Grenade kit hardly functions as a ranged DPS weapon, much like mortar.

Honestly if Laser's Edge affected your damage outside of Photon Forge (without PBM) then I think there would be no need to add specific heat bonuses to weapons. The Sword and Exceeds would simply be far better suited to the use of heat than other weapons and skills.

The Weaver and Mirage comparisons I feel are simply overstated. In both cases their profession mechanics have to answer a question like "what if ambush attack with Sword?" and that flows naturally into a thought experiment on what the Mesmer's Sword would do with this new mechanic. In weaver's case especially, it would make absolutely no sense if you were to weave two attunements together, but not get a dual attack unless you were wielding a sword. Neither of these professions got some kind of Death Shroud to go with their new skills that gave them access to 5 new weapon skills on demand and a new resource system.

If Dual Attack or Ambush skills are too overbearing, then those skills can be nerfed. If Heated Engineer skills are too overbearing then their heat benefit would need to be reduced, potentially to a point of irrelevancy, especially when those skills need to be good without Holosmith. And that's the key issue I feel, which others have picked up on, sword and exceed skills don't even need to be useful when below 50% heat, so the devs can make the bad effect bad and the good effect good.

Is there any truth to the OP that Sword is only weapon to use new engineer mechanics?

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Is there any truth to the OP that Sword is only weapon to use new engineer mechanics?

Yes the sword is the only weapon that uses heat benefits.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:According to the Wiki, which only knows so much at the moment about the new elite specs.Sword is the only weapon that gains benefits of heat levels.

Weaver/Ele had dual attacks created for all weapons, is it not fair that with Holosmith equipped that we should have all our weapons get benefits from heat level like the sword does?

OP say no more....

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/3330/weaver-fire-air-48k-dps#latest