Is Chrono the ONLY good tank? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is Chrono the ONLY good tank?

So I'm trying to diversify my raiding roles to better fill whatever my group needs for the run. I can already run either Condi or Power Weaver and blow everything up but unfortunately, Eles are awful tanks. With that in mind, I am trying to find a tank build to play but I really do not enjoy Mesmer. Are there any other good tank builds for literally any other class besides Mesmer or would it be too dentrimental to run anything else?

Pwn what cannot be pwned.

<1

Comments

  • Ardenwolfe.8590Ardenwolfe.8590 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My pet tanks pretty well, thank you very much. ;)

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    Since GW2 has no defined trinity of tank-heal-DPS, whenever people say "tank", "healer", "support", you should read it as "offensive buffs", which is the only thing a non-DPS class can ever bring into play into the current state of gameplay. Practically every class can tank in theory (on the bosses that do involve tanking), but you'll never see it because Chrono has the best offensive support by far (quickness + alacrity). Same goes for druid, since tempest is the best heal-per-second but Druid is a might bot so it will always be taken. Insofar as actual gameplay decisions are involved, there is no room for diversity, whatever you do that's not using a Chrono is going to be handicapping and very niche.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    If you have a renegade alacrity bot (healing or condi as per your group's preference) a condi FB tank is a really strong option in place of a chrono. The ability to "bulk up" with minimal DPS loss is pretty big. This Tank FB setup easily breaks 20k DPS while still covering the group in quickness. Compared to anything other than minstrel chrono it is also absurdly tanky.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭

    Ele (tempest) is probably the best tank option after chrono. It doesnt share offensive buffs and its heals have big radius so it doesnt lose anything significant for not staying on group (like druid and maybe rev would). It has great self sustain so druid can focus all heals on squad. If your group would run druid+ele healers in squad anyways, there's no reason not to tank on ele ,especially good if chronos are not experienced with tanking.

    Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

    Other picks are either not doing damage, not sharing buffs, not healing or just have low range on buffs/heals which doesnt make them that good picks. Scourge has potential with barriers and might, but I dont think it's worth it compared to chrono. Firebrand could also work, but you need alacrity bot (renegade preferably) and group to stay on boss tightly to get all buffs.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

    Going from full Viper Scourge to Full Trailblazer Scourge costs you about 9% DPS. It requires minimal healing.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭

    @Knox.8962 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

    Going from full Viper Scourge to Full Trailblazer Scourge costs you about 9% DPS. It requires minimal healing.

    You are kidding right? Necro requires plenty of healing, because it doesn't have blocks, protection, or its own passive healing source (outside of parasitic contagion which only procs on condi dmg, and some bosses clear condi's)

    As for the 9% dps figure. If you can't provide a benchmark, stop spreading this around as if its a given, because its simply not.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2018

    We've had this discussion not so long ago and you should remember it. Ensign provided a reasoned explanation for the 9% - what exactly did you provide?

    Link: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21570/trailblazer-scourge-in-fractals

    Praise delta!

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    We've had this discussion not so long ago and you should remember it. Ensign provided a reasoned explanation for the 9% - what exactly did you provide?

    Link: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21570/trailblazer-scourge-in-fractals

    He still never gave an actual benchmark. He never showed he could hit Farbstoffs benchmark either to prove that his 'testing' was even accurate.

    You can provide reasoning all you like. But the reason we moved away from spreadsheet math, was because things in reality opperate under different assumptions, especially once buffs like quickness and alacrity are taken into account.

    Basically, Ensign provided nothing that actually PROVES what he is saying is true. I don't have to provide anything, because the burden of proof isn't on me.

    But if it means anything, I have asked Moorbazan to benchmark it as a favor. And until such a benchmark is released I will continue asking for proof.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Calculating the effect of some rather simple stat changes is not rocket science, especially when you don't need to get to the third decimal place.

    Praise delta!

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2018

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Calculating the effect of some rather simple stat changes is not rocket science, especially when you don't need to get to the third decimal place.

    It doesn't have to be rocket science. Proof is proof. If you wanna place faith in that, go right ahead. But i'm a man of science, and i believe in evidence AND theorizing. But if you can't provide evidence for a theory, it's as good as not having one at all.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    Doesn't matter if Necros can survive because they can't do it like Chronos can. No blocks, no evades and no distortion means you will eventually have to use that dodge button or move aside and risk the boss turning enough for a nasty hit. And by the way are you still taking two Chronos to have the whole team easily covered with quickness+alacrity? Then you're losing DPS for no reason.

    OP's question was clear enough that it does not warrant discussion: "Is anything other than a Chrono tank detrimental to the team?" - the answer is yes, it will always be detrimental. You can only claim it's "viable", it "can be done" (but so can VG be done with only 2 people), but nevertheless it is still handicapping yourself (which is fine as long as you don't rationalize it into being as good as optimal).

  • No but alacrity and quickness is a great trade off for the lack of dps.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    Doesn't matter if Necros can survive because they can't do it like Chronos can. No blocks, no evades and no distortion means you will eventually have to use that dodge button or move aside and risk the boss turning enough for a nasty hit. And by the way are you still taking two Chronos to have the whole team easily covered with quickness+alacrity? Then you're losing DPS for no reason.

    OP's question was clear enough that it does not warrant discussion: "Is anything other than a Chrono tank detrimental to the team?" - the answer is yes, it will always be detrimental. You can only claim it's "viable", it "can be done" (but so can VG be done with only 2 people), but nevertheless it is still handicapping yourself (which is fine as long as you don't rationalize it into being as good as optimal).

    I didn't realize that the pro chronos blocked or distorted every single hit. In all of my logs, the top damage source was Chilling Aura, which I'm pretty sure isn't blockable. Chilling Aura is roughly 3-4x the damage of the next highest damage source in all of my logs.

    Tank Necro has extremely high armor, extremely high HP, massive condi clear, spammable barrier and largely don't care about where the boss is to maintain a rotation (No need to proc a block or try to maintain a quickness rotation on the group while tanking).

    As for the losing DPS argument:

    A Zerk Chrono on a golem does roughly 10k DPS. A Viper Necro on a golem does roughly 30k DPS.
    A Minstrel Chrono on a golem does roughly 4k DPS. A Trailblazer Necro on a golem does roughly 27k DPS.

    Minstrel Chrono + viper necro = 34k DPS
    Zerk Chrono + TB Necro = 37k DPS
    Even if the Necro takes Parasitic Contagion (which costs roughly 10% more of their personal DPS) you still end up with
    10k + 24.3k DPS = 34.3k DPS
    At that point, you have a necro who is extremely tanky and generating an additional 1.5k+ healing that doesn't interfere with healing from any other sources and still adds more overall damage than a minstrel chrono does in this situation.

    I'm not saying that Minstrel Chrono is bad by any means, but it is absolutely not the only reasonable or viable option for tanking.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Knox.8962 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

    Going from full Viper Scourge to Full Trailblazer Scourge costs you about 9% DPS. It requires minimal healing.

    You are kidding right? Necro requires plenty of healing, because it doesn't have blocks, protection, or its own passive healing source (outside of parasitic contagion which only procs on condi dmg, and some bosses clear condi's)

    As for the 9% dps figure. If you can't provide a benchmark, stop spreading this around as if its a given, because its simply not.

    Comparing the Viper Necro and Tankromancer is pretty simple. Using the following assumptions:

    25 Might, 6 conditions on the target (12% crit chance via Target the Weak), Spotter, Pinpoint, EA, Banner of Strength, Banner of Discipline, 2 Shades up

    Viper Build:

    • Power - 3243 = 2173 + 750 + 150 + 170
    • Crit - 82.38% = (1633 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
    • Crit Damage - 168% = (100 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
    • Eff. Power - 5059.7 = 3243 x (82.38% x 68% + 1)
    • Condi Damage - 2999 = 1929 + 150 + 170 + 750
    • Bleeding 1s Base - 432.2 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)*(1+100%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)
    • Torment 1s Base - 388.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)*(1+80%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)
    • Burning 1s Base - 1147.6 = (131 + 0.155 x 2999)*(1+80%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)
    • Poison 1s Base - 411.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 2999)*(1+80%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)

    Tank Scourge:

    • Power - 2070 = 1000 + 750 + 150 + 170
    • Crit - 53.86% = (1034 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
    • Crit Damage - 161.33% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
    • Eff. Power - 2753.8 = 2070 x (53.86% x 61.33% + 1)
    • Condi Damage - 3091 = 2021 + 150 + 170 + 750
    • Bleeding 1s Base - 414.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+100%)
    • Torment 1s Base - 373.4 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)
    • Burning 1s Base - 1098.2 = (131 + 0.155 x 3091)*(1+80%)
    • Poison 1s Base - 394.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)

    Comparing the two, you can see that the Tankromancer does the following % of Viper Scourge damage:

    • Eff. Power - 54.43% = 2753.8/5059.7
    • Bleeding - 96.01% = 414.9/432.2
    • Torment - 96.01% = 373.4/388.9
    • Burning - 95.69% = 1098.2/1147.6
    • Poison - 95.87% = 394.1/411.1

    Using Farbstoff's Benchmark Video you get the following damage breakdown:

    • Bleeding - 36.63%
    • Torment - 28.62%
    • Burning - 16.15%
    • Poison - 5.95%
    • Minion - 1.34%
    • Everything Else - 11.31%
    • Total - 100%

    Scaling Farbstoff's Numbers by the Scalings calculated above you get the following:

    • Bleeding - 35.17% = 36.63% x 96.01%
    • Torment - 27.48% = 28.62% x 96.01%
    • Burning - 15.45% = 16.15% x 95.69%
    • Poison - 5.70% = 5.95% x 95.87%
    • Minion - 1.34% = 1.34% x 100%
    • Everything Else - 6.16% = 11.31% x 54.43%
    • Total - 91.303%

    That's a net loss of 8.697% DPS going from full viper to full tank necro.

  • @Knox.8962 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Knox.8962 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

    Going from full Viper Scourge to Full Trailblazer Scourge costs you about 9% DPS. It requires minimal healing.

    You are kidding right? Necro requires plenty of healing, because it doesn't have blocks, protection, or its own passive healing source (outside of parasitic contagion which only procs on condi dmg, and some bosses clear condi's)

    As for the 9% dps figure. If you can't provide a benchmark, stop spreading this around as if its a given, because its simply not.

    Comparing the Viper Necro and Tankromancer is pretty simple. Using the following assumptions:

    25 Might, 6 conditions on the target (12% crit chance via Target the Weak), Spotter, Pinpoint, EA, Banner of Strength, Banner of Discipline, 2 Shades up

    Viper Build:

    • Power - 3243 = 2173 + 750 + 150 + 170
    • Crit - 82.38% = (1633 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
    • Crit Damage - 168% = (100 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
    • Eff. Power - 5059.7 = 3243 x (82.38% x 68% + 1)
    • Condi Damage - 2999 = 1929 + 150 + 170 + 750
    • Bleeding 1s Base - 432.2 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)*(1+100%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)
    • Torment 1s Base - 388.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)*(1+80%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)
    • Burning 1s Base - 1147.6 = (131 + 0.155 x 2999)*(1+80%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)
    • Poison 1s Base - 411.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 2999)*(1+80%) * 1.07 (renegade rune)

    Tank Scourge:

    • Power - 2070 = 1000 + 750 + 150 + 170
    • Crit - 53.86% = (1034 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
    • Crit Damage - 161.33% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
    • Eff. Power - 2753.8 = 2070 x (53.86% x 61.33% + 1)
    • Condi Damage - 3091 = 2021 + 150 + 170 + 750
    • Bleeding 1s Base - 414.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+100%)
    • Torment 1s Base - 373.4 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)
    • Burning 1s Base - 1098.2 = (131 + 0.155 x 3091)*(1+80%)
    • Poison 1s Base - 394.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)

    Comparing the two, you can see that the Tankromancer does the following % of Viper Scourge damage:

    • Eff. Power - 54.43% = 2753.8/5059.7
    • Bleeding - 96.01% = 414.9/432.2
    • Torment - 96.01% = 373.4/388.9
    • Burning - 95.69% = 1098.2/1147.6
    • Poison - 95.87% = 394.1/411.1

    Using Farbstoff's Benchmark Video you get the following damage breakdown:

    • Bleeding - 36.63%
    • Torment - 28.62%
    • Burning - 16.15%
    • Poison - 5.95%
    • Minion - 1.34%
    • Everything Else - 11.31%
    • Total - 100%

    Scaling Farbstoff's Numbers by the Scalings calculated above you get the following:

    • Bleeding - 35.17% = 36.63% x 96.01%
    • Torment - 27.48% = 28.62% x 96.01%
    • Burning - 15.45% = 16.15% x 95.69%
    • Poison - 5.70% = 5.95% x 95.87%
    • Minion - 1.34% = 1.34% x 100%
    • Everything Else - 6.16% = 11.31% x 54.43%
    • Total - 91.303%

    That's a net loss of 8.697% DPS going from full viper to full tank necro.

    It's almost like you didn't read anything i said. You just keep ignoring it and saying "but here's math" when i did the math last year when trailblazer became a thing in wvw.

    I asked for a benchmark. Which you still have yet to provide. Until that happens, my judgment is reserved.

  • Samnang.1879Samnang.1879 Member ✭✭✭

    of course not
    can tank on druid, healing fb... it's just chrono is the only tank that can give adequate quickness and alacrity.

    Anet: give us in-game marriage please:

    • Bachelors get 10% karma, magic find
    • Couple get 10% gold, exp
    • Option to marry companion/android bought from gemstore
  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    Chronomancers provide powerful offensive buffs, powerful defensive buffs (the aegis spam is even better than the old distort in quite a few cases), they are able to tank without getting hit once if they know what they are doing, they still do not need to dodge and thus will not move the boss around, they provide other utility such as Moa CC, focus pulls, boon strip and more.
    All of this combined makes them the most versatile and efficient tanks for any of the bosses. There might be cases where they are beaten by a more offensive tank but those are rather rare and still require far more setup in your squad and thus leave you with less freedom on which classes you want to bring.

    To make it short: Are there other good tanks? Yes. Is any of them as good as the chronomancer? No.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    @Blue Hare.8612 said:
    Almost all classes can tank, but the reason chrono is used is not because it is the best at tanking. Chrono is used because it can provide quicknes and alacrity while tanking. With chrono as a tank you don't need additional player playing as support to provide alacrity and quicknes. Chrono is not just a tank, but a support also, hence it is meta at the moment.

    Some have tried using firebrand for quicknes and revenant for alacrity to replace chrono, but that requires some setup and is not really practical in pugs, and having a chrono is more simple.

    ^ Already provided the best answer.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Knox.8962 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    Doesn't matter if Necros can survive because they can't do it like Chronos can. No blocks, no evades and no distortion means you will eventually have to use that dodge button or move aside and risk the boss turning enough for a nasty hit. And by the way are you still taking two Chronos to have the whole team easily covered with quickness+alacrity? Then you're losing DPS for no reason.

    OP's question was clear enough that it does not warrant discussion: "Is anything other than a Chrono tank detrimental to the team?" - the answer is yes, it will always be detrimental. You can only claim it's "viable", it "can be done" (but so can VG be done with only 2 people), but nevertheless it is still handicapping yourself (which is fine as long as you don't rationalize it into being as good as optimal).

    I didn't realize that the pro chronos blocked or distorted every single hit. In all of my logs, the top damage source was Chilling Aura, which I'm pretty sure isn't blockable. Chilling Aura is roughly 3-4x the damage of the next highest damage source in all of my logs.

    Tank Necro has extremely high armor, extremely high HP, massive condi clear, spammable barrier and largely don't care about where the boss is to maintain a rotation (No need to proc a block or try to maintain a quickness rotation on the group while tanking).

    As for the losing DPS argument:

    A Zerk Chrono on a golem does roughly 10k DPS. A Viper Necro on a golem does roughly 30k DPS.
    A Minstrel Chrono on a golem does roughly 4k DPS. A Trailblazer Necro on a golem does roughly 27k DPS.

    Minstrel Chrono + viper necro = 34k DPS
    Zerk Chrono + TB Necro = 37k DPS
    Even if the Necro takes Parasitic Contagion (which costs roughly 10% more of their personal DPS) you still end up with
    10k + 24.3k DPS = 34.3k DPS
    At that point, you have a necro who is extremely tanky and generating an additional 1.5k+ healing that doesn't interfere with healing from any other sources and still adds more overall damage than a minstrel chrono does in this situation.

    I'm not saying that Minstrel Chrono is bad by any means, but it is absolutely not the only reasonable or viable option for tanking.

    I love necro, I main it since I started playing GW2, and I'd love to regularly raid using it (as you said, considering only yourself, tanking is actually easier than it is on Chrono), but that's just not feasible in general. When your whole team has to setup itself specifically because of you, i.e, you are still taking a Chrono on your squad so you're taking a DPS role that could have gone to a Weaver or DH, your team might need to rethink its CC of which you have little, and your survivability If you want it to be as good or better as Chrono relies on applying conditions and feeding on parasitic contagion which might turn out not so well in bosses where condi is not a good spec to begin with. There's also the matter that group-wide blocks provided by Chrono are much superior to a barrier in all but a few cases, such as blocking Sloth's tantrum. It's unfortunate and I don't like it either, but Chrono is the simplest and most effective tank and it is not by a small margin.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    You can still bring a zerk chrono for quickness, alacrity and all the chrono utility you want.

    I'm just saying that for maximizing damage output, any fight where you feel compelled to use a minstrel chrono can be handled by a trailblazer geared condi class at far lower group DPS loss.

    A tanky condi class loses far far less damage than a power spec.

  • I'd say it's only the good tank because lel stats.

    The entire purpose of "play who you want" has been completely ignored and left to die.

  • Chronomancer is also good because of blocks and blurred frenzy, which make it possible to avoid attacks without moving.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rain.9213 said:
    So I'm trying to diversify my raiding roles to better fill whatever my group needs for the run. I can already run either Condi or Power Weaver and blow everything up but unfortunately, Eles are awful tanks. With that in mind, I am trying to find a tank build to play but I really do not enjoy Mesmer. Are there any other good tank builds for literally any other class besides Mesmer or would it be too dentrimental to run anything else?

    Any class--yes even Minstrel Ele's--make fine tanks... The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank and you generally need to bring two of them anyways, so it just makes sense. Using your second healer (if you are using two healers) to tank works in the same philosophy, but you don't see it as often since most healer's don't have a toughness set due to how entrenched chronotank is in the LFG meta...

    I feel like a minstrel Renegade with a quickness spam Firebrand could replace both the chronotank and healer in one sub quite effectively and probably even be a higher overall group dps combo, but it's not something you'd really want to invest gear into setting up since everybody still just uses chronos and in order to make it work, you'd always have to find someone geared to be the other half of your Quickness/Alacrity/Tank/Healer duo, and that's not very likely outside of a static. Which is why chrono's reign supreme for tanking--it's so much easier to find one person to cover the three roles than a bunch of hodgepodge people to get the job done--even if they would do it better.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:
    The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

    This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

    If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

    Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono
    ~10k -> ~2k

    Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand
    ~27k -> ~24k

  • Rising Dusk.2408Rising Dusk.2408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2018

    @Knox.8962 said:
    I'm just saying that for maximizing damage output, any fight where you feel compelled to use a minstrel chrono can be handled by a trailblazer geared condi class at far lower group DPS loss.

    For any encounter where your team is seriously considering a Minstrel's Chronomancer, you actually are benefiting from the surprisingly large ancillary heals of the Chronomancer as much or more than the fact that the Minstrel's Chronomancer is tanky. Well of Eternity has a whopping 1.2 Healing Power coefficient, and most raid Regeneration ticks are coming from your Chronomancers anyway. The only exception to that is if you're also running 2 Harrier Druids, in which case you should seriously drop the Minstrel's Chronomancer to begin with (or swap one of the Druids for a better healer if your group needs that much padding).

    Valor Zeal [VZ] - Stormbluff Isle

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2018

    @Knox.8962 said:
    I'm sorry that very clear and obviously knowable math doesn't meet your standards for proof. I even showed my work and everything.

    None of these mechanics or interactions are mysteries.

    If you'd like to make a video proving that the difference between the two builds posted is greater than 9%, I'll accept that as proof that my math is wrong.

    Make sure you use a large enough sample size to filter out the noise. 20 or 30 frame perfect parses on the 50 million HP golem for each build should be sufficient.

    Try 4 mil x 50 golem kill testing, you know, like real benchmarkers? The benchmark is to prove your math correct. Stop being lazy.

    You'd think that due to the multiplicative nature of boons/buffs, and the past history of math being used to prove a build, that people would stop relying on math alone in this game.

    Especially because of how bugged conditions are where you actually lose condition ticks (which they still havent properly fixed). I never stated the mechanics or interactions are mysteries, i simply asked for a benchmark to show your math in action. If that offends you, too bad.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2018

    @Knox.8962 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:
    The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

    This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

    If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

    Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono
    ~10k -> ~2k

    Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand
    ~27k -> ~24k

    There is no such thing as condi classes, only condi builds, and some condition builds have higher power coeffecients than others. Unless you can prove this and benchmark it, like i said before, it comes off as dishonest or just plain lazy.

    If you do the proper work, there would be no questions, but some builds dont have 10% power damage, even for conditions. For some condition builds its as high as 30-40% simply due to the weapon set having a higher power scaling, like axe on firebrand. Which allowed for a greiver build to exist.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rising Dusk.2408 said:

    @Knox.8962 said:
    I'm just saying that for maximizing damage output, any fight where you feel compelled to use a minstrel chrono can be handled by a trailblazer geared condi class at far lower group DPS loss.

    For any encounter where your team is seriously considering a Minstrel's Chronomancer, you actually are benefiting from the surprisingly large ancillary heals of the Chronomancer as much or more than the fact that the Minstrel's Chronomancer is tanky. Well of Eternity has a whopping 1.2 Healing Power coefficient, and most raid Regeneration ticks are coming from your Chronomancers anyway. The only exception to that is if you're also running 2 Harrier Druids, in which case you should seriously drop the Minstrel's Chronomancer to begin with (or swap one of the Druids for a better healer if your group needs that much padding).

    Most of the fights where people like to use tankier tanks (VG, Xera, Deimos, SH) are because the TANK is at increased risk of dying due to incoming boss damage (or being left alone to tank without a healer) not because the rest of the raid is taking inordinate amounts of damage. So while the heals from a minstrel chrono are non-zero, the regen is typically competing with druid regen (which is typically better) so you're mostly looking at the heals that splash the group from your Heal skill and associated traits.

    That said, the vast majority of raid kills on gw2raidar still get flagged as having 2 support druids.

    Wing 4 bosses are flagged support druids as follows:
    Cairn - 1.83
    MO - 1.62
    Sam - 1.69
    Deimos - 1.75

    That doesn't even include instances of support Ren, Herald, Tempest or FB builds. Nor does it include condi Ventari Renegades, or condi druids.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2018

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Knox.8962 said:
    I'm sorry that very clear and obviously knowable math doesn't meet your standards for proof. I even showed my work and everything.

    None of these mechanics or interactions are mysteries.

    If you'd like to make a video proving that the difference between the two builds posted is greater than 9%, I'll accept that as proof that my math is wrong.

    Make sure you use a large enough sample size to filter out the noise. 20 or 30 frame perfect parses on the 50 million HP golem for each build should be sufficient.

    Try 4 mil x 50 golem kill testing, you know, like real benchmarkers? The benchmark is to prove your math correct. Stop being lazy.

    You'd think that due to the multiplicative nature of boons/buffs, and the past history of math being used to prove a build, that people would stop relying on math alone in this game.

    Especially because of how bugged conditions are where you actually lose condition ticks (which they still havent properly fixed). I never stated the mechanics or interactions are mysteries, i simply asked for a benchmark to show your math in action. If that offends you, too bad.

    I have plenty of data and wiki info to back up my position. I've shown it multiple times. If you're asserting that the wiki formulas are wrong or my damage calculations are wrong, I'd be happy to review specific portions of the work that you take exception with. If you don't accept math as proof, you're welcome to not take me seriously

    Your to continued shouting that I need to show a video of me beating some other players benchmark number is the equivalent of asking the engineers at Nike to beat Usain Bolt in a race before they try to advertise or sell a new and improved shoe that they've designed.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭

    @Knox.8962 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:
    The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

    This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

    If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

    Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono
    ~10k -> ~2k

    Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand
    ~27k -> ~24k

    Automatically assuming the tank is full minstrel is also a leap... While it may be standard in the PUG community to go full minstrel, that's because people are bad/untrusted/likely to eat mechanics and your Chrono is essentially acting as another healer--not just somebody to tank the boss. If you don't need overhealing, it's not uncommon for Chronotanks to just use a few pieces of commander's for agro and rely on rotating their i-frames to negate the bulk of the damage. Plus, you're using a golem benchmark for that Zerker chrono's DPS, which fails to account for the fact that it's your chronomancer's that end up doing the bulk of the mechanics in a fight, delay rotations for breakbars, rez the bads, drop their DPS in favor of boon uptime, etc... And you'll expect them to do those things whether they're the tank or not.

    Also, I don't buy that a Trailblazer Firebrand is that close to Grievous, Sinister, or Viper because so much of their rotation involves camping scepter, which is essentially a power weapon--I could be wrong cuz I haven't done the math/testing myself, but yeah, I'm gonna say it's a lot more than 3k--especially on a real, non golem fight. You could maybe make that argument for a Trailblazer Scourge instead of a Viper Scourge, but even in that example you're bringing a Scourge instead of a Weaver/DH/Holo or Ren/Mirage. And I do still think a Chronotank + a Weaver out dps's a Trailblazer Condi Class + a Zerk Chrono.

    Like I said originally, I'm not saying other classes can't be the tank, or you need a chrono to do it... But if you're in a group going for optimization you probably will. And also, if you're pugging you probably will as well, because when you're not using a chrono you need to find a lot of really specific other classes to fill their void, and GL with that in LFG.

  • @Knox.8962 said:
    Most of the fights where people like to use tankier tanks (VG, Xera, Deimos, SH) are because the TANK is at increased risk of dying due to incoming boss damage (or being left alone to tank without a healer) not because the rest of the raid is taking inordinate amounts of damage. So while the heals from a minstrel chrono are non-zero, the regen is typically competing with druid regen (which is typically better) so you're mostly looking at the heals that splash the group from your Heal skill and associated traits.

    I appreciate your raidar stats, and it sounds like you're correct for pubs. From my perspective as someone who exclusively raids with statics of varying skill level and familiarity, however, we would never have a Minstrel's Chronomancer in the same subgroup as a Harrier's Druid (because that's really dumb), and in some cases (Xera, for instance) the Minstrel's Chronomancer completely substitutes for the second healer allowing us to run another DPS class.

    That all said and since your argument focused on pubs, let me just say that I don't think pubs are a good place where anyone should consider non-Chronomancer tanks. People want role compression (Alacrity/Tank/Quickness/Heals) because it makes it easier to fill groups when you only have to rely on one person for a huge portion of your roles as opposed to two or three. Your single best bet for trying more spread-out compositions is to find a static that has people interested in experimenting with you.

    Valor Zeal [VZ] - Stormbluff Isle

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rising Dusk.2408 said:

    @Knox.8962 said:
    Most of the fights where people like to use tankier tanks (VG, Xera, Deimos, SH) are because the TANK is at increased risk of dying due to incoming boss damage (or being left alone to tank without a healer) not because the rest of the raid is taking inordinate amounts of damage. So while the heals from a minstrel chrono are non-zero, the regen is typically competing with druid regen (which is typically better) so you're mostly looking at the heals that splash the group from your Heal skill and associated traits.

    I appreciate your raidar stats, and it sounds like you're correct for pubs. From my perspective as someone who exclusively raids with statics of varying skill level and familiarity, however, we would never have a Minstrel's Chronomancer in the same subgroup as a Harrier's Druid (because that's really dumb), and in some cases (Xera, for instance) the Minstrel's Chronomancer completely substitutes for the second healer allowing us to run another DPS class.

    That all said and since your argument focused on pubs, let me just say that I don't think pubs are a good place where anyone should consider non-Chronomancer tanks. People want role compression (Alacrity/Tank/Quickness/Heals) because it makes it easier to fill groups when you only have to rely on one person for a huge portion of your roles as opposed to two or three. Your single best bet for trying more spread-out compositions is to find a static that has people interested in experimenting with you.

    I raid with a static group weekly. I also pug and sub for friends' static groups frequently on nights where my static doesn't run. I think your perspective is seriously skewed if you think that most static groups look more like 2 condi druids and less like 2 magi druids.

    Just the fact that people take the time to run a meter and upload the logs to GW2Raidar in the first place pushes them really far out of the casual "Shooty McBearbow" crowd and skews that data very heavily towards a more serious group of raiders.

  • @Knox.8962 said:
    I raid with a static group weekly. I also pug and sub for friends' static groups frequently on nights where my static doesn't run. I think your perspective is seriously skewed if you think that most static groups look more like 2 condi druids and less like 2 magi druids.

    I've never mentioned a condition Druid anywhere in my posts. All I've said is that in a lot of cases, my groups only run one Harrier's Druid.

    @Knox.8962 said:
    Just the fact that people take the time to run a meter and upload the logs to GW2Raidar in the first place pushes them really far out of the casual "Shooty McBearbow" crowd and skews that data very heavily towards a more serious group of raiders.

    A lot of those logs get uploaded by single players from groups, and that doesn't come close to representing the majority of the players. You're not wrong that a lot of people are pretty serious business about raids, though, but I do think you seriously overestimate how much those players are willing to sit around waiting for X class / build combination (that's already not very popular) just to try something different that might in some contexts be better than just running a Chronomancer. This is only exacerbated when you consider that a majority of those players who might be good enough to support tangential strategies really just want consistent clears if they're pubbing.

    Valor Zeal [VZ] - Stormbluff Isle

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2018

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Knox.8962 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:
    The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

    This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

    If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

    Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono
    ~10k -> ~2k

    Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand
    ~27k -> ~24k

    Automatically assuming the tank is full minstrel is also a leap... While it may be standard in the PUG community to go full minstrel, that's because people are bad/untrusted/likely to eat mechanics and your Chrono is essentially acting as another healer--not just somebody to tank the boss. If you don't need overhealing, it's not uncommon for Chronotanks to just use a few pieces of commander's for agro and rely on rotating their i-frames to negate the bulk of the damage.

    Any place where you would go Half-Minstrel you could easily go Half-Trailblazer on a FB.

    Also, I don't buy that a Trailblazer Firebrand is that close to Grievous, Sinister, or Viper because so much of their rotation involves camping scepter, which is essentially a power weapon--I could be wrong cuz I haven't done the math/testing myself, but yeah, I'm gonna say it's a lot more than 3k--especially on a real, non golem fight.

    Comparing the Viper Quickbrand and TB Quickbrand is pretty simple. Using the following assumptions:

    25 Might, burning on the target (10% crit chance via Radiant Power), Pinpoint, EA, Banner of Strength, Banner of Discipline

    Viper Build:

    • Power - 3243 = 2173 + 750 + 150 + 170
    • Crit - 91.57% = (1703 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 15% + 10%
    • Crit Damage - 161.3% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
    • Eff. Power - 5064.4 = 3243 x (91.57% x 61.33% + 1)
    • Condi Damage - 3009 = 1689 + 150 + 170 + 750 + 250
    • Burning 1s Base - 1375.4 = (131 + 0.155 x 3009)*(1+100%) * 1.15 (Amplified Wrath)
    • Bleeding 1s Base - 294.1 = (22 + 0.06 x 3009)*(1+45.2%)

    TB Build:

    • Power - 2104 = 1034 + 750 + 150 + 170
    • Crit - 63.05% = (1104 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 15% + 10%
    • Crit Damage - 161.3% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
    • Eff. Power - 2917.6 = 2104 x (63.05% x 61.33% + 1)
    • Condi Damage - 3017 = 1689 + 150 + 170 + 750 + 250 + 8 (Corsair Tuning Crystal x Imbued Haste)
    • Burning 1s Base - 1380.3 = (131 + 0.155 x 3017)*(1+100%) * 1.15 (Amplified Wrath)
    • Bleeding 1s Base - 295.4 = (22 + 0.06 x 3017)*(1+45.5%)

    Comparing the two, you can see that the TB Quickbrand the following % of Viper QuickBrand:

    • Eff. Power - 57.6% = 2917.6/5064.4
    • Burning - 100.4% = 1380.3/1375.4
    • Bleeding - 100.4% = 295.4/294.1

    Using Strider's Benchmark Video you get the following damage breakdown:

    • Burning - 69.8%
    • Bleeding - 3.0%
    • Everything Else - 27.2%
    • Total - 100%

    Scaling Strider's Numbers by the Scalings calculated above you get the following:

    • Burning - 70.05% = 69.8% x 100.4%
    • Bleeding - 3.01% = 3.0% x 100.4%
    • Everything Else - 15.7% = 27.2% x 57.6%
    • Total - 88.73%

    That's a net loss of 11.27% DPS going from full viper to full tank Quickbrand.

    Taking his 27,652 starting point and scaling it by those numbers, you'd end up with 24,536 in the full trailblazer setup linked above.

    And I do still think a Chronotank + a Weaver out dps's a Trailblazer Condi Class + a Zerk Chrono.

    The question is, does TB Firebrand + Ventari Ren outdamage a Minstrel Chrono + Druid. The answer to that is undoubtedly a yes. It is certainly more complicated to find a group doing that instead of just running 2 chronos and 2 druids, but it absolutely does more damage.

    See This Reddit Thread for more discussion on the topic.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭

    The question is, does TB Firebrand + Ventari Ren outdamage a Minstrel Chrono + Druid. The answer to that is undoubtedly a yes. It is certainly more complicated to find a group doing that instead of just running 2 chronos and 2 druids, but it absolutely does more damage.

    See This Reddit Thread for more discussion on the topic.

    Why would you not just use a Minstrel Renegade and a Viper's/Grievous FB if you're going to do that? Put all the tank/heal/alacrity on one while the other is 99% dps with Quickness... Since a Renegade keeping up 100% alacrity can't really use their energy on offensive skills anyways.

    But even then you still need a Druid for spirits/spotter/might, so you're forcing yourself to run a 2 healer/support setup just for the sake of not wanting to use a chrono. 2 Chrono + 1 Druid + 1 BS + 6 DPS will always win unless you absolutely need the heals, but if you need all the extra heals to carry your group, working on mechanics should take priority over trying to find new class comps to carry.

    Plus, now you're down a huge chunk of breakbar damage... You could have the Renegade help with breaks, but that will kill their alacrity uptime and scatter the adds if there are any.

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2018

    @narcx.3570 said:

    The question is, does TB Firebrand + Ventari Ren outdamage a Minstrel Chrono + Druid. The answer to that is undoubtedly a yes. It is certainly more complicated to find a group doing that instead of just running 2 chronos and 2 druids, but it absolutely does more damage.

    See This Reddit Thread for more discussion on the topic.

    Why would you not just use a Minstrel Renegade and a Viper's/Grievous FB if you're going to do that? Put all the tank/heal/alacrity on one while the other is 99% dps with Quickness... Since a Renegade keeping up 100% alacrity can't really use their energy on offensive skills anyways.

    Minstrel Renegade does maybe 2k damage. Viper Ventari Renegade does 25k-ish.
    You can run Viper FB + Minstrel Renegade for 27.5k + 2k or you could run Viper Renegade + Trailblazer FB for 24.5k + 24.5k.

    But even then you still need a Druid for spirits/spotter/might, so you're forcing yourself to run a 2 healer/support setup just for the sake of not wanting to use a chrono. 2 Chrono + 1 Druid + 1 BS + 6 DPS will always win unless you absolutely need the heals, but if you need all the extra heals to carry your group, working on mechanics should take priority over trying to find new class comps to carry.

    You need heals and quickness/alacrity for 10 people. You can get that essentially 3 ways:

    • 2 Chronos, 1 harrier druid, 1 extra DPS - 10k, 10k, 5k, 35k - 60k total
    • 2 Chronos, 2 Condi Druids - 10k, 10k, 20k, 20k - 60k total
    • 1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Condi Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 27.5k, 20k, 24.5k - 82k total

    Obviously you can replace a condi druid with a harrier druid in the 2nd and 3rd setups as per your group's healing needs

    • 2 Chronos, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Condi Druid - 10k, 10k, 5k, 20k - 45k total
    • 1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 27.5k, 5k, 24.5k - 67k total

    If you are going to use a "TANK" your numbers look like this:

    • 2 Chronos, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 extra DPS - 10k, 5k, 5k, 35k - 55k total
    • 2 Chronos, 2 Condi Druids - 10k, 5k, 20k, 20k - 55k total
    • 1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Condi Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 24.5k, 20k, 24.5k - 79k total

    If you are a planning to use 2 Full healers

    • 2 Chronos, 2 Harrier druid - 10k, 10k, 5k, 5k - 30k total
    • 1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Harrier Ren - 10k, 27k, 5k, 5k - 47k total

    If you want a "Tank" and 2 Full healers

    • 2 Chronos, 2 Harrier druid - 10k, 5k, 5k, 5k - 25k total
    • 1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Harrier Ren - 10k, 24k, 5k, 5k - 44k total
    • 1 Chrono, 1 Minstrel FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 2k, 5k, 25k - 42k total
  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    Chrono isnt the only good tank. It is, however, the most efficient one.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rain.9213 said:
    but unfortunately, Eles are awful tanks.

    Actually, ele is a good tank. Especially if your group would run two healers regardless. Your healer is your tank for group 1. It works pretty well; I've done it quite a bit. You can even go condi tank and run apothecary's gear and do some decent dps while healing and tanking.

    but yeah plenty of classes make great tanks. The ONLY source of lack of party diversity at this point is established habit.

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