Is Chrono the ONLY good tank?

So I'm trying to diversify my raiding roles to better fill whatever my group needs for the run. I can already run either Condi or Power Weaver and blow everything up but unfortunately, Eles are awful tanks. With that in mind, I am trying to find a tank build to play but I really do not enjoy Mesmer. Are there any other good tank builds for literally any other class besides Mesmer or would it be too dentrimental to run anything else?

Almost all classes can tank, but the reason chrono is used is not because it is the best at tanking. Chrono is used because it can provide quicknes and alacrity while tanking. With chrono as a tank you don't need additional player playing as support to provide alacrity and quicknes. Chrono is not just a tank, but a support also, hence it is meta at the moment.

Some have tried using firebrand for quicknes and revenant for alacrity to replace chrono, but that requires some setup and is not really practical in pugs, and having a chrono is more simple.

My pet tanks pretty well, thank you very much. ;)

Since GW2 has no defined trinity of tank-heal-DPS, whenever people say "tank", "healer", "support", you should read it as "offensive buffs", which is the only thing a non-DPS class can ever bring into play into the current state of gameplay. Practically every class can tank in theory (on the bosses that do involve tanking), but you'll never see it because Chrono has the best offensive support by far (quickness + alacrity). Same goes for druid, since tempest is the best heal-per-second but Druid is a might bot so it will always be taken. Insofar as actual gameplay decisions are involved, there is no room for diversity, whatever you do that's not using a Chrono is going to be handicapping and very niche.

If you have a renegade alacrity bot (healing or condi as per your group's preference) a condi FB tank is a really strong option in place of a chrono. The ability to "bulk up" with minimal DPS loss is pretty big. This Tank FB setup easily breaks 20k DPS while still covering the group in quickness. Compared to anything other than minstrel chrono it is also absurdly tanky.

Ele (tempest) is probably the best tank option after chrono. It doesnt share offensive buffs and its heals have big radius so it doesnt lose anything significant for not staying on group (like druid and maybe rev would). It has great self sustain so druid can focus all heals on squad. If your group would run druid+ele healers in squad anyways, there's no reason not to tank on ele ,especially good if chronos are not experienced with tanking.

Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

Other picks are either not doing damage, not sharing buffs, not healing or just have low range on buffs/heals which doesnt make them that good picks. Scourge has potential with barriers and might, but I dont think it's worth it compared to chrono. Firebrand could also work, but you need alacrity bot (renegade preferably) and group to stay on boss tightly to get all buffs.

@steki.1478 said:Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

Going from full Viper Scourge to Full Trailblazer Scourge costs you about 9% DPS. It requires minimal healing.

@Knox.8962 said:

@steki.1478 said:Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

You are kidding right? Necro requires plenty of healing, because it doesn't have blocks, protection, or its own passive healing source (outside of parasitic contagion which only procs on condi dmg, and some bosses clear condi's)

As for the 9% dps figure. If you can't provide a benchmark, stop spreading this around as if its a given, because its simply not.

We've had this discussion not so long ago and you should remember it. Ensign provided a reasoned explanation for the 9% - what exactly did you provide?

Link: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21570/trailblazer-scourge-in-fractals

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:We've had this discussion not so long ago and you should remember it. Ensign provided a reasoned explanation for the 9% - what exactly did you provide?

Link: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21570/trailblazer-scourge-in-fractals

He still never gave an actual benchmark. He never showed he could hit Farbstoffs benchmark either to prove that his 'testing' was even accurate.

You can provide reasoning all you like. But the reason we moved away from spreadsheet math, was because things in reality opperate under different assumptions, especially once buffs like quickness and alacrity are taken into account.

Basically, Ensign provided nothing that actually PROVES what he is saying is true. I don't have to provide anything, because the burden of proof isn't on me.

But if it means anything, I have asked Moorbazan to benchmark it as a favor. And until such a benchmark is released I will continue asking for proof.

Calculating the effect of some rather simple stat changes is not rocket science, especially when you don't need to get to the third decimal place.

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Calculating the effect of some rather simple stat changes is not rocket science, especially when you don't need to get to the third decimal place.

It doesn't have to be rocket science. Proof is proof. If you wanna place faith in that, go right ahead. But i'm a man of science, and i believe in evidence AND theorizing. But if you can't provide evidence for a theory, it's as good as not having one at all.

Doesn't matter if Necros can survive because they can't do it like Chronos can. No blocks, no evades and no distortion means you will eventually have to use that dodge button or move aside and risk the boss turning enough for a nasty hit. And by the way are you still taking two Chronos to have the whole team easily covered with quickness+alacrity? Then you're losing DPS for no reason.

OP's question was clear enough that it does not warrant discussion: "Is anything other than a Chrono tank detrimental to the team?" - the answer is yes, it will always be detrimental. You can only claim it's "viable", it "can be done" (but so can VG be done with only 2 people), but nevertheless it is still handicapping yourself (which is fine as long as you don't rationalize it into being as good as optimal).

No but alacrity and quickness is a great trade off for the lack of dps.

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Doesn't matter if Necros can survive because they can't do it like Chronos can. No blocks, no evades and no distortion means you will eventually have to use that dodge button or move aside and risk the boss turning enough for a nasty hit. And by the way are you still taking two Chronos to have the whole team easily covered with quickness+alacrity? Then you're losing DPS for no reason.

OP's question was clear enough that it does not warrant discussion: "Is anything other than a Chrono tank detrimental to the team?" - the answer is yes, it will always be detrimental. You can only claim it's "viable", it "can be done" (but so can VG be done with only 2 people), but nevertheless it is still handicapping yourself (which is fine as long as you don't rationalize it into being as good as optimal).

I didn't realize that the pro chronos blocked or distorted every single hit. In all of my logs, the top damage source was Chilling Aura, which I'm pretty sure isn't blockable. Chilling Aura is roughly 3-4x the damage of the next highest damage source in all of my logs.

Tank Necro has extremely high armor, extremely high HP, massive condi clear, spammable barrier and largely don't care about where the boss is to maintain a rotation (No need to proc a block or try to maintain a quickness rotation on the group while tanking).

As for the losing DPS argument:

A Zerk Chrono on a golem does roughly 10k DPS. A Viper Necro on a golem does roughly 30k DPS.A Minstrel Chrono on a golem does roughly 4k DPS. A Trailblazer Necro on a golem does roughly 27k DPS.

Minstrel Chrono + viper necro = 34k DPSZerk Chrono + TB Necro = 37k DPSEven if the Necro takes Parasitic Contagion (which costs roughly 10% more of their personal DPS) you still end up with10k + 24.3k DPS = 34.3k DPSAt that point, you have a necro who is extremely tanky and generating an additional 1.5k+ healing that doesn't interfere with healing from any other sources and still adds more overall damage than a minstrel chrono does in this situation.

I'm not saying that Minstrel Chrono is bad by any means, but it is absolutely not the only reasonable or viable option for tanking.

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@Knox.8962 said:

@"steki.1478" said:Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

Comparing the Viper Necro and Tankromancer is pretty simple. Using the following assumptions:

25 Might, 6 conditions on the target (12% crit chance via Target the Weak), Spotter, Pinpoint, EA, Banner of Strength, Banner of Discipline, 2 Shades up

Viper Build:

• Power - 3243 = 2173 + 750 + 150 + 170
• Crit - 82.38% = (1633 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
• Crit Damage - 168% = (100 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
• Eff. Power - 5059.7 = 3243 x (82.38% x 68% + 1)
• Condi Damage - 2999 = 1929 + 150 + 170 + 750
• Bleeding 1s Base - 432.2 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)(1+100%) 1.07 (renegade rune)
• Torment 1s Base - 388.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)(1+80%) 1.07 (renegade rune)
• Burning 1s Base - 1147.6 = (131 + 0.155 x 2999)(1+80%) 1.07 (renegade rune)
• Poison 1s Base - 411.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 2999)(1+80%) 1.07 (renegade rune)

Tank Scourge:

• Power - 2070 = 1000 + 750 + 150 + 170
• Crit - 53.86% = (1034 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
• Crit Damage - 161.33% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
• Eff. Power - 2753.8 = 2070 x (53.86% x 61.33% + 1)
• Condi Damage - 3091 = 2021 + 150 + 170 + 750
• Bleeding 1s Base - 414.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+100%)
• Torment 1s Base - 373.4 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)
• Burning 1s Base - 1098.2 = (131 + 0.155 x 3091)*(1+80%)
• Poison 1s Base - 394.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)

Comparing the two, you can see that the Tankromancer does the following % of Viper Scourge damage:

• Eff. Power - 54.43% = 2753.8/5059.7
• Bleeding - 96.01% = 414.9/432.2
• Torment - 96.01% = 373.4/388.9
• Burning - 95.69% = 1098.2/1147.6
• Poison - 95.87% = 394.1/411.1

Using

• Bleeding - 36.63%
• Torment - 28.62%
• Burning - 16.15%
• Poison - 5.95%
• Minion - 1.34%
• Everything Else - 11.31%
• Total - 100%

Scaling Farbstoff's Numbers by the Scalings calculated above you get the following:

• Bleeding - 35.17% = 36.63% x 96.01%
• Torment - 27.48% = 28.62% x 96.01%
• Burning - 15.45% = 16.15% x 95.69%
• Poison - 5.70% = 5.95% x 95.87%
• Minion - 1.34% = 1.34% x 100%
• Everything Else - 6.16% = 11.31% x 54.43%
• Total - 91.303%

That's a net loss of 8.697% DPS going from full viper to full tank necro.

@Knox.8962 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@Knox.8962 said:

@"steki.1478" said:Dps tanks like reaper and thief would lose decent amount of personal dps and would probably require more heals compared to chrono tank.

• Power - 3243 = 2173 + 750 + 150 + 170
• Crit - 82.38% = (1633 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
• Crit Damage - 168% = (100 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
• Eff. Power - 5059.7 = 3243 x (82.38% x 68% + 1)
• Condi Damage - 2999 = 1929 + 150 + 170 + 750
• Bleeding 1s Base - 432.2 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)
  (1+100%)
  1.07 (renegade rune)
• Torment 1s Base - 388.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 2999)
  (1+80%)
  1.07 (renegade rune)
• Burning 1s Base - 1147.6 = (131 + 0.155 x 2999)
  (1+80%)
  1.07 (renegade rune)
• Poison 1s Base - 411.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 2999)
  (1+80%)
  1.07 (renegade rune)

• Power - 2070 = 1000 + 750 + 150 + 170
• Crit - 53.86% = (1034 + 150 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 12%
• Crit Damage - 161.33% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500
• Eff. Power - 2753.8 = 2070 x (53.86% x 61.33% + 1)
• Condi Damage - 3091 = 2021 + 150 + 170 + 750
• Bleeding 1s Base - 414.9 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+100%)
• Torment 1s Base - 373.4 = (22 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)
• Burning 1s Base - 1098.2 = (131 + 0.155 x 3091)*(1+80%)
• Poison 1s Base - 394.1 = (33.5 + 0.06 x 3091)*(1+80%)

• Eff. Power - 54.43% = 2753.8/5059.7
• Bleeding - 96.01% = 414.9/432.2
• Torment - 96.01% = 373.4/388.9
• Burning - 95.69% = 1098.2/1147.6
• Poison - 95.87% = 394.1/411.1

• Bleeding - 36.63%
• Torment - 28.62%
• Burning - 16.15%
• Poison - 5.95%
• Minion - 1.34%
• Everything Else - 11.31%
• Total - 100%

• Bleeding - 35.17% = 36.63% x 96.01%
• Torment - 27.48% = 28.62% x 96.01%
• Burning - 15.45% = 16.15% x 95.69%
• Poison - 5.70% = 5.95% x 95.87%
• Minion - 1.34% = 1.34% x 100%
• Everything Else - 6.16% = 11.31% x 54.43%
• Total - 91.303%

It's almost like you didn't read anything i said. You just keep ignoring it and saying "but here's math" when i did the math last year when trailblazer became a thing in wvw.

I asked for a benchmark. Which you still have yet to provide. Until that happens, my judgment is reserved.

I'm sorry that very clear and obviously knowable math doesn't meet your standards for proof. I even showed my work and everything.

None of these mechanics or interactions are mysteries.

If you'd like to make a video proving that the difference between the two builds posted is greater than 9%, I'll accept that as proof that my math is wrong.

Make sure you use a large enough sample size to filter out the noise. 20 or 30 frame perfect parses on the 50 million HP golem for each build should be sufficient.

of course notcan tank on druid, healing fb... it's just chrono is the only tank that can give adequate quickness and alacrity.

Chronomancers provide powerful offensive buffs, powerful defensive buffs (the aegis spam is even better than the old distort in quite a few cases), they are able to tank without getting hit once if they know what they are doing, they still do not need to dodge and thus will not move the boss around, they provide other utility such as Moa CC, focus pulls, boon strip and more.All of this combined makes them the most versatile and efficient tanks for any of the bosses. There might be cases where they are beaten by a more offensive tank but those are rather rare and still require far more setup in your squad and thus leave you with less freedom on which classes you want to bring.

To make it short: Are there other good tanks? Yes. Is any of them as good as the chronomancer? No.

@Blue Hare.8612 said:Almost all classes can tank, but the reason chrono is used is not because it is the best at tanking. Chrono is used because it can provide quicknes and alacrity while tanking. With chrono as a tank you don't need additional player playing as support to provide alacrity and quicknes. Chrono is not just a tank, but a support also, hence it is meta at the moment.

Some have tried using firebrand for quicknes and revenant for alacrity to replace chrono, but that requires some setup and is not really practical in pugs, and having a chrono is more simple.

^ Already provided the best answer.

@Knox.8962 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Doesn't matter if Necros can survive because they can't do it like Chronos can. No blocks, no evades and no distortion means you will eventually have to use that dodge button or move aside and risk the boss turning enough for a nasty hit. And by the way are you still taking two Chronos to have the whole team easily covered with quickness+alacrity? Then you're losing DPS for no reason.

OP's question was clear enough that it does not warrant discussion: "Is anything other than a Chrono tank detrimental to the team?" - the answer is yes, it will always be detrimental. You can only claim it's "viable", it "can be done" (but so can VG be done with only 2 people), but nevertheless it is still handicapping yourself (which is fine as long as you don't rationalize it into being as good as optimal).

I love necro, I main it since I started playing GW2, and I'd love to regularly raid using it (as you said, considering only yourself, tanking is actually easier than it is on Chrono), but that's just not feasible in general. When your whole team has to setup itself specifically because of you, i.e, you are still taking a Chrono on your squad so you're taking a DPS role that could have gone to a Weaver or DH, your team might need to rethink its CC of which you have little, and your survivability If you want it to be as good or better as Chrono relies on applying conditions and feeding on parasitic contagion which might turn out not so well in bosses where condi is not a good spec to begin with. There's also the matter that group-wide blocks provided by Chrono are much superior to a barrier in all but a few cases, such as blocking Sloth's tantrum. It's unfortunate and I don't like it either, but Chrono is the simplest and most effective tank and it is not by a small margin.

You can still bring a zerk chrono for quickness, alacrity and all the chrono utility you want.

I'm just saying that for maximizing damage output, any fight where you feel compelled to use a minstrel chrono can be handled by a trailblazer geared condi class at far lower group DPS loss.

A tanky condi class loses far far less damage than a power spec.

I'd say it's only the good tank because lel stats.

The entire purpose of "play who you want" has been completely ignored and left to die.

Chronomancer is also good because of blocks and blurred frenzy, which make it possible to avoid attacks without moving.