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I honestly think the addition of elite specs to the game was a design mistake


tartarus.1082

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when we could barely get one set of elite specs balanced between each other let alone the core specs, we get a whole new set with their own interactions within the game.

You know making a game with already lackluster balance even more complicated to balance. With the same lazy patch schedule to boot.

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Elite specs weren't a mistake in and of themselves. The power creep has been the problem. It was talked about that the elite specs would be different but not superior ways to play a class.A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief. It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Many areas of this game are similar to Dungeons and Dragons. That game has always emphasized balance. If you're wearing heavy plate, you don't also get to blink. A monster healer is not a heavy damage dealer as well. I think this game would do well to turn back toward that sort of thinking. It has served D&D well for decades.

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it wasn't a mistake, the problem was the fact that elite specs have an playstyle that heavily supports and ampliflies an existing role of the core class.

Examples

Daredevil was meant to be an melee wielding fighter. but the extra endurance mechanic, interupt mechanics on top of core thief bieng a class known for mobility and dodges(pre hot) bassically allowed the core thief to bassically evolve straight up by adding an acrobratic traitline 2.0 with additional spike damage throught pulimanry impact

Chronomancer added extra clone generations, alarachity and continuumsplit wich allowed both power and condi mesmers to aggressivelly shatter, it allowed for double moa's double aoe cc, heck even double mass invisability

and so they are many more.

oddily enough while they are some inbalance issues with some classes bieng too weak be an competetive pick. repeated nerfs and or balance descisions have actually put some elite specs as what they were advertised to be in the first place

Berserker used to be flat out stronger then core warrior in both it's condi and power variants. the instant level 3 burst, the damage, the casting speed, the rousing resilience stacking, made power berserker an better choice then power warrior, condis got a massive buff from the old longbow core or some self made sword or sword offhand warrior, they added a torch and berserker was practically a guardians's radiance traitline+another strength traitline added on top of core warrior. however repeated nerfs and buffs to core war made it so that berserker as an power spec simply cannot compete with an core warrior so all that is left is a condi. in which it is superior to a core condi warrior. here berserker is atleast an other way of playing core warrior or maby even an inferior way of playing warrior.

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@Ithilwen.1529 said:A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief. It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Guardians have had multiple teleports since launch.

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@Ithilwen.1529 said:Elite specs weren't a mistake in and of themselves. The power creep has been the problem. It was talked about that the elite specs would be different but not superior ways to play a class. That did not happen.

A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief. It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Many areas of this game are similar to Dungeons and Dragons. That game has always emphasized balance. If you're wearing heavy plate, you don't also get to blink. A monster healer is not a heavy damage dealer as well. I think this game would do well to turn back toward that sort of thinking. It has served D&D well for decades.

back when games had values now they give everyone everything like its too difficult to lvl a new class in gw2 , too much eccentricity is not a good thing

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@Ithilwen.1529 said:Elite specs weren't a mistake in and of themselves. The power creep has been the problem. It was talked about that the elite specs would be different but not superior ways to play a class. That did not happen.

A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief. It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Many areas of this game are similar to Dungeons and Dragons. That game has always emphasized balance. If you're wearing heavy plate, you don't also get to blink. A monster healer is not a heavy damage dealer as well. I think this game would do well to turn back toward that sort of thinking. It has served D&D well for decades.

Guardian allways had both teleport meditations and sword 2...this was not introduced by DH or FB. Also, you cant really try to compare Mesmer and Thief mobility with Guardian, they are basically the extremes, Guardian having really poor mobility and Mesmer and Thief being the very best on the game at this.

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@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Elite specs weren't a mistake in and of themselves. The power creep has been the problem. It was talked about that the elite specs would be different but not superior ways to play a class. That did not happen.

A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief. It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Many areas of this game are similar to Dungeons and Dragons. That game has always emphasized balance. If you're wearing heavy plate, you don't also get to blink. A monster healer is not a heavy damage dealer as well. I think this game would do well to turn back toward that sort of thinking. It has served D&D well for decades.

'In Guild Wars 2‘s upcoming Heart of Thorns expansion, the team at ArenaNet is looking to expand on their existing class system with the introduction of elite specializations. Elite specializations come as a part of the game’s recently revamped trait system, and will allow players to choose an entirely new trait line as one of their three active trait lines, gaining access to a weapon previously unusable by their profession, new traits, new utility skills (including healing and elite), and a new twist on their class’s profession mechanic. Many of the skills being added draw their functionality from new skill technology being introduced with the expansion, so even seasoned players should find something new to play around with'.

'Despite the name, elite specializations aren’t meant to be a straight upgrade on the base class; the goal is instead to offer a compelling new play style that was previously unavailable, as well as introducing a new system for ArenaNet to continue to use to expand the existing classes further down the road'

http://www.mmo-central.com/2015/09/28/overview-elite-specializations-guild-wars-2/

' The truth always comes out in the end, no matter how hard you try to hide it or stop it '

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The way the specs were implemented made them superior by design. They built them just on top of core. Take Engi for example. If you say Toolbelt-skills are the core traitmark of Engi the logical way to make a sidegrade offer with alternative gameplay would be to implement a strong form of function-gyro-style traitline wich replaces TB-skills. What actually happend is they kept all core aspects and added elite-mechanics to that. Same for PoF.

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@schloumou.3982 said:The way the specs were implemented made them superior by design. They built them just on top of core. Take Engi for example. If you say Toolbelt-skills are the core traitmark of Engi the logical way to make a sidegrade offer with alternative gameplay would be to implement a strong form of function-gyro-style traitline wich replaces TB-skills. What actually happend is they kept all core aspects and added elite-mechanics to that. Same for PoF.

Also they should turn base proffesion into elite specialisation on their own, that you have unlocked since beginning. Like soul reaping, virtues, tools....., if they want to make core balanced and same function as elite specializations. Also would lower power creep as these traitlines are often taken with new elite specialisations.

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@"Ithilwen.1529" said:My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief. It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Tell me, my dear child. You're saying Guardians have high mobility. How come every single "viable" Guardian dps spec has ran Lynx runes for the 25% movespeed? I'll let you in on a little secret, it's not because of the condition damage. Guard mobility has always been abyssmal, with the exception of the old Khylo map.

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@Loop.8106 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:My least favorite example of this is the
heavy
Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.
It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Tell me, my dear child. You're saying Guardians have high mobility. How come every single "viable" Guardian dps spec has ran Lynx runes for the 25% movespeed? I'll let you in on a little secret, it's not because of the condition damage. Guard mobility has always been abyssmal, with the exception of the old Khylo map.

Guardian has the ability to make a leap + damage that is actually better than Mesmer blink.

My point is and was: There need to be trade offs, a quid pro quo if you will. If you're a heavy tank with high invulnerability uptime.. then you should not also be a top damage dealer nor should you have high mobility.

Dungeons and Dragons, ( I can cite specific examples, ) has very close parallels to GW2. The former game has been successful for decades. I attribute some of that success to the fact that E. Gary Gygax and his crew have been remarkably consistent about balance. A warrior doesn't get to have heavy magical abilities also. Dungeon Masters are encouraged to outright ban issues that give an excessive advantage to players.

The very conservative approach to balance taken by that game has been successful over a long period of time. A more conservative approach to balance and a clear separation of the classes would be a very good place to start improving GW2. A Guardian should be a Guardian and not a Ranger/Guardian/Warrior/Thief.

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@Ithilwen.1529 said:

Guardian has the ability to make a leap + damage that is actually better than Mesmer blink.

My point is and was: There need to be trade offs, a quid pro quo if you will. If you're a heavy tank with high invulnerability uptime.. then you should not also be a top damage dealer nor should you have high mobility.

Dungeons and Dragons, ( I can cite specific examples, ) has very close parallels to GW2. The former game has been successful for decades. I attribute some of that success to the fact that E. Gary Gygax and his crew have been remarkably consistent about balance. A warrior doesn't get to have heavy magical abilities also. Dungeon Masters are encouraged to outright ban issues that give an excessive advantage to players.

The very conservative approach to balance taken by that game has been successful over a long period of time. A more conservative approach to balance and a clear separation of the classes would be a very good place to start improving GW2. A Guardian should be a Guardian and not a Ranger/Guardian/Warrior/Thief.

Makes sense.

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@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:My least favorite example of this is the
heavy
Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.
It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Tell me, my dear child. You're saying Guardians have high mobility. How come every single "viable" Guardian dps spec has ran Lynx runes for the 25% movespeed? I'll let you in on a little secret, it's not because of the condition damage. Guard mobility has always been abyssmal, with the exception of the old Khylo map.

Guardian has the ability to make a leap + damage that is actually better than Mesmer blink.

My point is and was: There need to be trade offs, a quid pro quo if you will. If you're a heavy tank with high invulnerability uptime.. then you should not also be a top damage dealer nor should you have high mobility.

Dungeons and Dragons, ( I can cite specific examples, ) has very close parallels to GW2.

Absolutely. Stopped. Reading. There.

Every MMORPG has attempted, in some way, to replicate the magic of table tops, and none have ever truly succeeded because no amount of binary will ever replace a GM's and player's collective human creativity in reacting to rolls. That said, D&D has roles and distinct playstyles for all of its myriad of classes and races. GW2 has DPS, perfect damage negation, arbitrary amounts of spike healing sprinkled everywhere, and portal. That's it.

GW2 is one of the most heinously homogenized games to ever exist. Eight classes, and only 3 of them were ever of any consistent use post-launch simply because that's how the game played in PvE (damage). If you wanted PvP, only ONE class (Elementalist even before cele ammy existed) was king (damage, passive healing and some extra padding invuln) along with portal or shortbow 5 spam on the side (notice how those last two skills respectively condense the "utility" and "uniqueness" of two whole classes down into two respective buttons). That is the foundation upon which GW2 was built, and nothing has changed except that now there is just more bloat than ever due to the spec system and revenant's superfluous addition to the game.

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@"tartarus.1082" said:when we could barely get one set of elite specs balanced between each other let alone the core specs, we get a whole new set with their own interactions within the game.

You know making a game with already lackluster balance even more complicated to balance. With the same lazy patch schedule to boot.

Honestly, I bet you could give me a class, and I could fit or re-work everything of value within that class' "core" lines into a single "core spec." It'd be nice if players only equipped one spec line total at once. More incentive to design specs around actual roles rather than just effortless, powercreeped damage and boring, overpowered defenses which all already exist in some form; and it also means less passive trait proc bloat attached to any one player at any time.

Regardless, traits need a fierce bloat culling.

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:My least favorite example of this is the
heavy
Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.
It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Tell me, my dear child. You're saying Guardians have high mobility. How come every single "viable" Guardian dps spec has ran Lynx runes for the 25% movespeed? I'll let you in on a little secret, it's not because of the condition damage. Guard mobility has always been abyssmal, with the exception of the old Khylo map.

Guardian has the ability to make a leap + damage that is actually better than Mesmer blink.

My point is and was: There need to be trade offs, a quid pro quo if you will. If you're a heavy tank with high invulnerability uptime.. then you should not also be a top damage dealer nor should you have high mobility.

Dungeons and Dragons, ( I can cite specific examples, ) has very close parallels to GW2.

Absolutely. Stopped. Reading. There.

Every MMORPG has attempted, in some way, to replicate the magic of table tops, and none have ever truly succeeded because no amount of binary will ever replace a GM's and player's collective human creativity in reacting to rolls. That said, D&D has roles and distinct playstyles for all of its myriad of classes and races. GW2 has DPS, perfect damage negation, arbitrary amounts of spike healing sprinkled everywhere, and portal. That's it.

GW2 is one of the most heinously homogenized games to ever exist.
Eight classes, and only 3 of them were ever of any consistent use post-launch simply because that's how the game played in PvE (damage). If you wanted PvP, only ONE class (Elementalist even before cele ammy existed) was king (damage, passive healing and some extra padding invuln) along with portal or shortbow 5 spam on the side (notice how those last two skills respectively condense the "utility" and "uniqueness" of two whole classes down into two respective buttons). That is the foundation upon which GW2 was built, and nothing has changed except that now there is just more bloat than ever due to the spec system and revenant's superfluous addition to the game.

( The emphasis is mine. )

You reinforced my point. I have consistently argued for distinctive class roles and abilities, like those of D&D.

As to the comparison to D&D; I was hoping to express that I wish GW2 would follow the example of that game in having distinctive classes and very conservative decisions in terms of character power levels. There are crystal clear parallels in the two games, but I don't dare cite them here.

As I wrote at the end of the entry you are commenting upon; "A Guardian should be a Guardian and not a Ranger/Guardian/Warrior/Thief."

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@Fluffball.8307 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the
heavy
Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.
It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Guardians have had multiple teleports since launch.

I still contend that it's illogical for a heavy armored tank to also have high mobility teleports.

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@"Sarrs.4831" said:I dunno

I look at metabattle and see 7 classes in the Meta category. I think the best balance the game has had has included 8 classes in Meta.

It might be that especs were a mistake but I don't see the evidence for it.

Not 7 classes, 7 very specific builds that act in very specific ways. In some cases with other specific classes that are also interacting in very specific ways.

Therein lies the problem. With this level of specialization, what we called "min/max'ing" in D&D, pretty much everything else is pushed out. I contend that this situation is not healthy for the game.

It also means that very small changes in the system will tend to have a ripple effect and cause large changes. When a system is so heavily optimized, anything outside that envelope is going to perform very poorly.

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I fear the next xpac and the elite specializations that will come with it. I think for many sPvP'ers and WvW'ers it's gonna be the tipping point for those that have hung in there and remained. If the powercreep and lack of individual game-mode optimization pattern holds true, things will be worse than they are now.

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@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the
heavy
Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.
It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Guardians have had multiple teleports since launch.

I still contend that it's illogical for a heavy armored tank to also have high mobility teleports.

GW2 doesn't have "heavy armored tanks". Heavy armor is little more than flavor. Difference between light and heavy in gw2 is what, 300 toughness? Please.

And you are zoning in on mobility a little too much. Mesmer has portal. Mesmer has stealth. Mesmer has ground targeted teleports. Mesmer has mini-invulnerability on sword. None of the heavy professions have access to these things.

I agree with most of what you're saying (not everyone should be able to do everything), but you are needlessly harsh on Guard just because it's usually a counter to mesmer, which you main.

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