Theory crafting: Shining Blade post-PoF

Something that's been nagging at me is the Shining Blade Oath from LS3. The obvious conclusion to telling any Shining Blade secrets is death via magic.But you die in PoF. Does this mean the oath is absolved? Does the oath apply to any and all times while alive? Will you be hunted or targeted for Shining Blade secrets?

Discuss

Yes, absolved. :)

It's not clear. The Oath never actually says 'until your dying breath' or anything else that makes it sound like it'd end with death. Actually, it was created far enough back that resurrection might've still been around, in which case they would've needed to make it stick to people who came back to life.

If i'm not mistaken Liva made that spell with the help of seer magic, it might have more effects then we realized other then death on oathbreak.

Well, the oath binded us until death, and if we died then the logical conclusion would be that yes, we should have been absolved of that oath. If not that would mean the oath is bound to the soul, but that seems too powerful to be likely.

@Pax.3548 said:Well, the oath binded us until death,

Except that, as Aaron said, nothing actually makes this implication.

The oath kills oathbreakers, but there is no "bound until death" stated anywhere.

@Pax.3548 said:If not that would mean the oath is bound to the soul, but that seems too powerful to be likely.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind who created the oath: Livia. Likely during the time she had the Scepter of Orr, an ancient and powerful artifact known to influence and command souls, and likely when resurrection was either still possible, or only recently lost.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Not necessarily. Keep in mind who created the oath: Livia. Likely during the time she had the Scepter of Orr, an ancient and powerful artifact known to influence and command souls, and likely when resurrection was either still possible, or only recently lost.

Yes, but the oath is made using the shining blade, not the scepter of orr, but being a powerful artifact on its own right, it may be enough to bind a person completely to the soul.

The Shining Blade act in the interests of the Queen, and the interests of the Queen requires the unification of the races. Why does everyone see this oath as a bad thing? Based on what we know, all we've done is made friends with the human special forces (which is something I don't think Jory/Kas can provide).

@"Westenev.5289" said:The Shining Blade act in the interests of the Queen, and the interests of the Queen requires the unification of the races. Why does everyone see this oath as a bad thing? Based on what we know, all we've done is made friends with the human special forces (which is something I don't think Jory/Kas can provide).

I think there are three big sticking points:

1. The Queen's interests might be cooperation (not unification), but her successor might take a different tack, and charr players, particularly Blood Legion, have a loyalty to an organization that's technically still at war with Kryta. A ceasefire is in place, but the truce talks were still in progress last we heard, let alone an actual treaty. If the Blood Imperator does go rogue to continue the war- something quite likely, from all we know of the man- or if in the distant future, once the dragons are dealt with, all the legions decide to go into expansion mode again, the Oath might compromise one of their foremost heroes.

2. There are many reasons, for the character and for the player, not to trust Jennah, Anise, the Shining Blade, or Kryta. Arguments can and have been made about whether those concerns are valid, but when you get right down to it, the norn were said in early documents not to trust Jennah (although that's never been played into in-game), the asura think the Krytan government is a primitive mess, the charr have obvious reasons to object, human street rats were close friends with an anarchist, and any player character might have reservations over how Jennah/Anise are perceived to have manipulated Logan/Canach/Kasmeer. At the end of the day, it's supernaturally binding you to a (probably foreign) spy service, and that inherently carries the risk of shadiness.

3. Our character rushed into the thing without fully understanding what it is they were swearing. The 'reveal our secrets and die' part is straightforward enough, but there's also a point where Anise mentions that part of our job description is "not working against Kryta." Does the Oath bind us to that, too? What counts as working against Kryta, and who gets to decide? If it means not making war against hapless villagers, that's easy for non-charr, but does it include not opposing the Queen's agendas, whatever those may be? These are important points to clear up, but Anise doesn't offer any clarification, and our character doesn't ask for it.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"Westenev.5289" said:The Shining Blade act in the interests of the Queen, and the interests of the Queen requires the unification of the races. Why does everyone see this oath as a bad thing? Based on what we know, all we've done is made friends with the human special forces (which is something I don't think Jory/Kas can provide).

1. The Queen's interests might be cooperation (not unification), but her successor might take a different tack, and charr players, particularly Blood Legion, have a loyalty to an organization that's technically still at war with Kryta. A ceasefire is in place, but the truce talks were still in progress last we heard, let alone an actual treaty. If the Blood Imperator does go rogue to continue the war- something quite likely, from all we know of the man- or if in the distant future, once the dragons are dealt with, all the legions decide to go into expansion mode again, the Oath might compromise one of their foremost heroes.

2. There are many reasons, for the character and for the player, not to trust Jennah, Anise, the Shining Blade, or Kryta. Arguments can and have been made about whether those concerns are valid, but when you get right down to it, the norn were said in early documents not to trust Jennah (although that's never been played into in-game), the asura think the Krytan government is a primitive mess, the charr have obvious reasons to object, human street rats were close friends with an anarchist, and any player character might have reservations over how Jennah/Anise are perceived to have manipulated Logan/Canach/Kasmeer. At the end of the day, it's supernaturally binding you to a (probably foreign) spy service, and that inherently carries the risk of shadiness.

3. Our character rushed into the thing without fully understanding what it is they were swearing. The 'reveal our secrets and die' part is straightforward enough, but there's also a point where Anise mentions that part of our job description is "not working against Kryta." Does the Oath bind us to that, too? What counts as working against Kryta, and who gets to decide? If it means not making war against hapless villagers, that's easy for non-charr, but does it include not opposing the Queen's agendas, whatever those may be? These are important points to clear up, but Anise doesn't offer any clarification, and our character doesn't ask for it.

I just see that as pedantic worrying. It’s pretty clear at this point that our character would likely fight against any kill-em-all campaign, especially since we currently participate in powerful multi-racial groups like the Pact, DE and DW. If anyone were to begin such a campaign, any sane person would consider us comprimised and keep us well away from their plans.

As for the possibility for Kryta going rogue… well, sometimes you have to sacrifice long term liberates for short term gains. It could be very possible that sometime in the near future, we will need the Shining Blade’s services... just as they will need ours. The oath stops us from working against the Queen's interests, but it doesn't say we have to work in her interests either; if the Shining Blade want anything from us, then they have to keep us on side. If they need to be taken out some day, that'll be someone else's problem.

Well, I hope the pc is absolved already. But, if not, maybe there is some loophole that will provide an opportunity to work against Anise/Shining Blades while under the oath.

Has anyone actually seen anyone killed for breaking the oath? Oh sure, we've all heard of it happening, but has any of you actually seen it. It could just be a bluff.

@Pax.3548 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Not necessarily. Keep in mind who created the oath: Livia. Likely during the time she had the Scepter of Orr, an ancient and powerful artifact known to influence and command souls, and likely when resurrection was either still possible, or only recently lost.

The oath was not made using The Shining Blade, but was bound to The Shining Blade. Big difference. We don't know how Livia made the oath, or with what, leaving it open to interpretation and theorycrafting at the moment.

"The spell, originally conceived of by Master Exemplar Livia, was imbued into the Shining Blade Sword by her and the inner circle."http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shining_Blade_Secrets

@"Westenev.5289" said:The Shining Blade act in the interests of the Queen, and the interests of the Queen requires the unification of the races. Why does everyone see this oath as a bad thing? Based on what we know, all we've done is made friends with the human special forces (which is something I don't think Jory/Kas can provide).

The Shining Blade acts in the interest of "the crown". This is a lot more iffy than "the Queen", because it doesn't necessarily refers to the person whom the crown sits upon, but the role of Kryta's leadership. As presented in the Sea of Sorrows novel, the Shining Blade are willing to kill a monarch if they believe they will leave Kryta and its leadership worse off.

While it seems that the Shining Blade are in agreement that working on the objectives of Jennah, this may not be the actual case for a secret police who naturally must keep their true nature hidden, and it may not be so in the future once, say, they learn the existence of a dragon scion we're protecting, or that we're against killing Elder Dragons at the moment.

But what I think people constantly think is "the issue" is the (supposed) misconception that the oath binds the PC to the servitude of Anise and Jennah, as member of the Shining Blade. Luckily, the oath only allows us privy to the group's knowledge and will kill if we try to tell those who aren't privy. The oath doesn't compel obedience.

I say supposed because the dialogue points to that, but is ultimately vague on the matter.

Ultimately, the oath won't ever show up in the plot again unless a dev comes up with a way to make it create new drama (such as should the Shining Blade be opposed to the "don't kill the Elder Dragons so we don't end the world" plan due to lacking information).

Heck, as I've said before, it's possible that the oath is so specific as to only apply to secrets told under oath. It's possible that the only thing it applies to is "don't tell anyone about the plan to use the aspects to revive and then kill Lazarus", as that's the only secret we were told under oath.

In broader interpretations, the "technically swearing loyalty to the Shining Blade" could be a problem, but as Westenev says... I think it's reasonable to assume that it's not expected for even a Blood Legion charr PC to want to participate in a resumption of hostilities against Kryta, or for Bangar to trust the PC to toe the legion line if that did happen. If the mentions of Bangar being a loose cannon who distrusts the truth ever does come out, in fact, I expect it to turn out that Blood Legion PCs support Rytlock in overthrowing Bangar.

In the long term, I'd also note that the Shining Blade pursuing the interests of the monarchy over the specific monarch might actually be more rather than less reassuring to the PC - it indicates that the Shining Blade is likely to continue to hold the same policies even if there's a change in monarch. So if some hypothetical heir decides to throw the truce under the bus, then what the PC gets from the Shining Blade might well be "help us get this moron under control".

If you look at this line from the actual oathe: " I will breathe my last breath before I will betray this oath", it seems that it is bound on you as long you have not breathed your last breath. You got your body back, and are breathing again. So Balthasar did not took your last breath. You are still bound by it (and I am certain the shining blade agrees!)

EDIT: Misread mercy's comment, wish I could delete posts.