Daily AP cap (again, but new idea)

In https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23795/pve-dailies#latest, Dashiva had an excellent idea:

@"Dashiva.6149" said:I am fine with the normal dailies as it is. Plenty of options and usually varied and easy enough. I am however quite bored with the repetitive map-specific dailies in the LW-maps.

I have been wondering lately if the pve-dailies should be split up between "expansions":

• 4 Core dailies
• 4 LS2 dailies
• 4 HoT dailies
• 4 LS3 dailies
• 4 PoF dailies
• 4 LS4 dailies

and so on.

This thread assumes two things. First, that something like Dashiva's idea gets implemented, and second that the daily achievement point (AP) cap is not a good thing. If you disagree with either premise, please either ignore this thread or avoid commenting on these premises. All other posters: please ignore arguments against either of these two conditions, so the thread doesn't get derailed.

My idea is that instead of a hard cap, daily APs be made successively harder to obtain, and/or have lesser value at completion.

Previously, I and many others have suggested using diminishing returns. But, with 24 dailies (Dashiva's idea) to choose from, ANet could, instead of (or, in addition to) the diminishing returns, raise the requirement for further daily APs.

For example, at 5,000 AP, players would need 4 dailies per day, and obtain only 9 APs for completing them. After 10,000, 5 a day and 8 APs per day. Etc, eventually coming down to needing something like 10-15 dailies completed, and only getting 1 AP per day for the effort.

NOTE: The exact numbers in the example above is for illustration only.

2nd NOTE: It's possible that PvP and WvW dailies might need reworking as a result of this idea. But, because I barely play WvW and never PvP, I can't comment intelligently on that.

Perhaps, but then the AP-chasers would whine again that all they do is chase dailies, which is how we ended up with 3-for-10AP (which they still complain about) and the AP cap in the first place.

I certainly like the idea of splitting dailies up a lot more to provide more options. :+1:It might do more to drive me into the Living Story zones, because right now I don't make the time for them anymore.

Diminishing returns on AP wouldn't be so bad. Hit a certain cap, and it unlocks a different daily track. But I'd only accept that if it were the AP reward and not the gold/etc that also come with finishing the daily set.

So, you are looking to have an "open" discussion, but only with people who agree with you both so the thread doesn't get "derailed".That isn't how discussions work.There are reasons that daily AP is capped.For total achievement points, I don't even think "dailies" should count (my opinion).Logging in and using a mining node and viewing a vista isn't an "achievement"...it's a task (not my opinion, this one is a fact).

So here, an alternate suggestion so a discussion can take place:Remove all the old monthly AP's and current daily AP's from everyone's total AP score - cause those were tasks, not game achievements.Create a new category that is daily tasks. The daily task rewards all remain the same as they are now. I don't care if it has a cap or not.The AP chests (and associated skin unlocks) will remain the same. If you have a skin unlocked already you keep it.

Example: Somone currently has 26000 AP's. 12000 of those are from dailies. That player will now only have 14000 AP's and 12000 worth of daily tasks.

Logging in each day to view a vista, take a mesmer portal to a JP chest, or use the logging node in your guild hall are NOT achievements.

For the record, I didn't take AP into account when making that suggestion as that is not something I pay attention to at all ingame.

@Rauderi.8706 said:Perhaps, but then the AP-chasers would whine again that all they do is chase dailies, which is how we ended up with 3-for-10AP (which they still complain about) and the AP cap in the first place.

I certainly like the idea of splitting dailies up a lot more to provide more options. :+1:It might do more to drive me into the Living Story zones, because right now I don't make the time for them anymore.

Diminishing returns on AP wouldn't be so bad. Hit a certain cap, and it unlocks a different daily track. But I'd only accept that if it were the AP reward and not the gold/etc that also come with finishing the daily set.

Definitely agree that this idea would ONLY apply to APs. If they wanted to discuss changing the other rewards, I think it should be a completely separate discussion.

@Dashiva.6149 said:For the record, I didn't take AP into account when making that suggestion as that is not something I pay attention to at all ingame.

Oh, very true. Sorry; I didn't mean to appear to put words in your mouth.

Your idea (if implemented) allows for the triggering of my idea, for at least a discussion. (Additionally, ANet would have to decide that the cap is in some ways negative as well. Players have beaten that idea to a pulp on the forums, but ANet has never commented.)

--> And, personally, I think your idea is more solid than my push to get rid of the cap. <--

Just abolish the stupid cap, it punishes veteran players and literally has no reason to exist.

making the amount drop, but the more I need to do go up is a horrid idea.

Honestly i do like how spvp dailies are structured.

Whatever you do, you manage to hit 3x in 20/40 min of play.

They should do the same with pve and wvw.

Some generic tasks like

• gather X any resources
• loot X items
• capture X any points
• kill X enemies
• craft X any items

And so on.

This way you will be able to indirecly achieve your dailies just by playing the way you want

@"Ubi.4136" said:So, you are looking to have an "open" discussion, but only with people who agree with you both so the thread doesn't get "derailed".That isn't how discussions work.There are reasons that daily AP is capped.For total achievement points, I don't even think "dailies" should count (my opinion).Logging in and using a mining node and viewing a vista isn't an "achievement"...it's a task (not my opinion, this one is a fact).

So here, an alternate suggestion so a discussion can take place:Remove all the old monthly AP's and current daily AP's from everyone's total AP score - cause those were tasks, not game achievements.Create a new category that is daily tasks. The daily task rewards all remain the same as they are now. I don't care if it has a cap or not.The AP chests (and associated skin unlocks) will remain the same. If you have a skin unlocked already you keep it.

Example: Somone currently has 26000 AP's. 12000 of those are from dailies. That player will now only have 14000 AP's and 12000 worth of daily tasks.

Logging in each day to view a vista, take a mesmer portal to a JP chest, or use the logging node in your guild hall are NOT achievements.

They should revamp the Achievement rewards system aswell, it will look pretty un-incentive to have a gap of thousands of AP, before getting the next rewards, it will turn people away from grinding the achievement points because it will take to much time to get anywhere.It's a bit tricky, because I agree with you on that the daily achievemtens shouldn't have been a part of the overall achievemtent reward system, For new players it makes it almost impossible to get to the high rewards, because they missed out on to many achievement points from the past

The more people complain/explain how AP work and their rewards the more I'm leaning towards an AP system without any rewards at all.

@CharterforGw.3149 said:They should revamp the Achievement rewards system aswell, it will look pretty un-incentive to have a gap of thousands of AP, before getting the next rewards, it will turn people away from grinding the achievement points because it will take to much time to get anywhere.

And once you reach the next rewards, more rewards will need to be added. This is the main problem with every suggestion about removing, or replacing, the daily achievement cap. The more AP available, the more rewards need to be added to the list, some say that they want more AP to get the Hellfire/Radiant back pieces, but once they do, new rewards will need to be available for them, meaning the developers would constantly need to add new rewards to the achievement rewards. Not to mention the gem rewards every 5k AP and other non-skin rewards that come from the achievements. If they uncap daily achievements, they need to add a cap to achievement rewards instead, creating other important problems, once players reach that, there would be no reason to continue getting AP, daily OR otherwise.

You can't have both of them uncapped, provided they continue adding rewards to them of course.

Now for the idea itself, it's a horrid one. It punishes veteran players by forcing them to play more of things that they do not like for no reason. They made it so you get 10 AP for 3 dailies because players complained that the old system had too much grind, and now you want to make it even worse than it was back then? That's like making steps backwards and going back to how it was before that change. If you want players to go and do their dailies, then make the dailies themselves rewarding and varied enough.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Now for the idea itself, it's a horrid one. It punishes veteran players by forcing them to play more of things that they do not like for no reason. They made it so you get 10 AP for 3 dailies because players complained that the old system had too much grind, and now you want to make it even worse than it was back then? That's like making steps backwards and going back to how it was before that change. If you want players to go and do their dailies, then make the dailies themselves rewarding and varied enough.

How can adding more ability to get AP rewards (for dailies) possibly be worse than what we have now, which is zero?

Veteran players are already being punished at the rate of 100% (for dailies). While I think the cap itself is absurd, it exists. This idea at least allows some progression due to dailies, vs. none right now.

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Now for the idea itself, it's a horrid one. It punishes veteran players by forcing them to play more of things that they do not like for no reason. They made it so you get 10 AP for 3 dailies because players complained that the old system had too much grind, and now you want to make it even worse than it was back then? That's like making steps backwards and going back to how it was before that change. If you want players to go and do their dailies, then make the dailies themselves rewarding and varied enough.

Because it literally makes a push for endlessly completing your dailies to obtain the teeny tiniest amount of AP so that you feel like you're progressing, but in fact you're just circlejerking dailies for no apparent reason.

I am still of the opinion that giving out AP for dailies was a bad idea from day 1, and the cap is the only thing that stops it from being a continuously bad idea.

@"Daddicus.6128" said:In https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23795/pve-dailies#latest, Dashiva had an excellent idea:

@"Dashiva.6149" said:I am fine with the normal dailies as it is. Plenty of options and usually varied and easy enough. I am however quite bored with the repetitive map-specific dailies in the LW-maps.

I have been wondering lately if the pve-dailies should be split up between "expansions":

• 4 Core dailies
• 4 LS2 dailies
• 4 HoT dailies
• 4 LS3 dailies
• 4 PoF dailies
• 4 LS4 dailies

and so on.

this is a horrible idea and will make a slow thing even more slower.

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Now for the idea itself, it's a horrid one. It punishes veteran players by forcing them to play more of things that they do not like for no reason. They made it so you get 10 AP for 3 dailies because players complained that the old system had too much grind, and now you want to make it even worse than it was back then? That's like making steps backwards and going back to how it was before that change. If you want players to go and do their dailies, then make the dailies themselves rewarding and varied enough.

My push is to eliminate the cap, but that seems to have fallen on deaf ears at ANet. This ides is a sort of compromise, and addition to diminishing returns. I'm assuming that because they refuse to comment, they can't support the cap in any coherent way. This idea allows them to at least pay lip-service to their veteran players.

@MarkoNS.3261 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:In

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23795/pve-dailies#latest

, Dashiva had an excellent idea:

@"Dashiva.6149" said:I am fine with the normal dailies as it is. Plenty of options and usually varied and easy enough. I am however quite bored with the repetitive map-specific dailies in the LW-maps.

I have been wondering lately if the pve-dailies should be split up between "expansions":

• 4 Core dailies
• 4 LS2 dailies
• 4 HoT dailies
• 4 LS3 dailies
• 4 PoF dailies
• 4 LS4 dailies

and so on.

How, exactly? It takes zero progress (the current mode, after 15,000 AP), and allows at least some progress. Zero progress compared to some progress cannot possibly be slower.

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@MarkoNS.3261 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:In

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23795/pve-dailies#latest

, Dashiva had an excellent idea:

@"Dashiva.6149" said:I am fine with the normal dailies as it is. Plenty of options and usually varied and easy enough. I am however quite bored with the repetitive map-specific dailies in the LW-maps.

I have been wondering lately if the pve-dailies should be split up between "expansions":

• 4 Core dailies
• 4 LS2 dailies
• 4 HoT dailies
• 4 LS3 dailies
• 4 PoF dailies
• 4 LS4 dailies

and so on.

if you mean it stats after 15k cap yeah then why not but still it exploits the people who want ap the most, the top people on leaderboards would start foaming from the mouth to do all the dailies xd.

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Now for the idea itself, it's a horrid one. It punishes veteran players by forcing them to play more of things that they do not like for no reason. They made it so you get 10 AP for 3 dailies because players complained that the old system had too much grind, and now you want to make it even worse than it was back then? That's like making steps backwards and going back to how it was before that change. If you want players to go and do their dailies, then make the dailies themselves rewarding and varied enough.

to some veteran players incredibly vocal about it*

I personally don't really see daily AP as relevant at all, and would rather see AP more in everything else. Why would anyone want to do more of the same dailies, instead of being send out to do a much greater variety of tasks. Like adding 1 AP for every weapon you collect in a weapon collection, rather than 1 AP at 6 weapons 1 AP at 12 weapons and one at 16 weapons (or whatever it is). That would make much more sense than the 1 AP for each random item pick up in some random map location.

The whole idea of daily AP cap being a problem being fixed by making it not a cap is just a horrible idea. And more incentive on a lot of other tasks that already give AP, just not in the weak way they are now. It could provide people with the feeling they aren't actually stuck as they can obtain some AP every day, without feeling they have to do just dailies every day. Easier to obtain AP in smaller increments would go long ways.

I really don't see more AP on dailies so that people can do more dailies (yay?) for AP as favourable. To me it's the same as the cap on slayer achievements. I could kill many more mobs of some of these categories, without obtaining AP, but it doesn't bother me, because it's just incredibly repetitive and boring. Just like dailies.

that daily system is complete trash.... once it take 1-2 hours to make all per day .. i think 15 ap was max (one time also 10) .. it takes a lot of time. So veteran players doing this and now ? u can make 10 ap in 2-5 minutes max. (with all that options vista viewer, gatherer, pvp reward track, wvw spender...)

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Now for the idea itself, it's a horrid one. It punishes veteran players by forcing them to play more of things that they do not like for no reason. They made it so you get 10 AP for 3 dailies because players complained that the old system had too much grind, and now you want to make it even worse than it was back then? That's like making steps backwards and going back to how it was before that change. If you want players to go and do their dailies, then make the dailies themselves rewarding and varied enough.

Daily achievement points are for veteran players to show how long they've been active with the game, they are the closest we have as a veteran reward. With your system of making it progressively harder to get achievement points from them, by requiring more dailies done each day, they transform from "veteran rewards" to "veteran rewards for players without a life". This is a horrid idea and punishes veteran players instead of helping them

You should also think of the cap itself as a reward, meaning once a veteran players reaches the daily cap they don't have to deal with dailies anymore, that's a huge reward on its own. With a cap, missing a daily here and there means it will take you just that longer to reach the cap, but you will reach it eventually. With your system, there will come a point where you can no longer progress, the difference will be, others will be able to progress. Some players able to progress while others are stuck is far worse than nobody being able to progress anymore.

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:Just abolish the stupid cap, it punishes veteran players and literally has no reason to exist.

I'm a veteran player, and the existence of a cap doesn't bother me at all. As someone who has 25k+ AP, I honestly couldn't care less if they removed the AP from dailies altogether. If you need some shallow sense of progression to make you feel compelled to play a game, then the game has already failed at its primary directive, which is to provide entertainment. Honestly, I find the entire premise of doing menial tasks to get AP to be rather uninspired to begin with.

In fact, the idea that I won't feel compelled to do dailies anymore after reaching the cap feels more like a reward than punishment. XD

At this point, I'm for almost anything that raises the AP cap.

• Remove the daily ap cap.
• Lower the requirements for titles unlocked via total APs and stop adding more.
• Remove all skins unlocked through total APs and add a mf recipe for them.

Then we will have

• Endless APs farm, but no rare rewards through it. Just chests given every 500 APs, which gives no unique rewards, and total points to show your friends to let them know that you like to do dailies.