Take a look at "roaming" in WvW — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Take a look at "roaming" in WvW

LaFurion.3167LaFurion.3167 Member ✭✭
edited January 10, 2018 in WvW

Hi guys. I was roaming for a bit and turned stream on for a friend, and had this all too common encounter.

Under two weeks ago, I posted a thread about "roaming" in wvw, and how classes like the mirage and deadeye - with their endless teleports, stealths, and stun breaks, had changed roaming fights into "kiting infinitely until you eventually set up a one shot" abomination; however, the thread was deleted due to me using some caps locks in it.

This highlight clearly shows the capabilities of the dead eye class to infinitely, effortlessly, and undeniably avoid damage, break out of cc, while still doing very high amounts of damage. There seems to be very little trade off or means to punish such a play style - one which I am of the opinion should not exist in the game with such little trade off.

During the video, I talked about how he had kited in a very very small area, and was still nearly un-killable for a long duration that took 3 of us to down him. I talk about what would have happened had he not "committed" or continued going for the resets, and just how impossible it would have been to take down a player using such hit and run tactics. Try listen to my rant if you can, but the point of it is just to show how frustrating it is.

Now, some of you will undoubtedly point out that my build is not "optimal" for small scale roaming, and is potentially the reason that we struggled so much to take this player down (although the sword dagger thief on my side couldnt do it either, but I digress), or that I played badly (there was a time when I accidenally pressed bulls charge at the same time as hammer f1 and charged into nowhere and then the hammer f1 fell short). However, I would just like to ask all of you to reply in earnest to 3 questions that I have about this type of game-play existing

1) Are Thieves and Mesmers using the stealth + stun break + teleport builds (nearly all of them) to fight with this infinite hit and run style fun to play against? Can you even play against it? I urge you to remember that it is no longer a fight at all. It is just being on a wvw map, out in the open, while the thief or mesmer just infinitely resets so he can try to one shot you, then when he fails, does it again infinitely. I wouldn't mind if they committed to the fight afterwards, and we had a good 1v1, but currently, the game has made it all too easy to reset at very little cost.

2) Does this need to be fixed? What are some possible fixes for this?

3) Has this type of "wvw roaming" (which it isnt, by the way.... -_-) made other classes very very unviable to roam, unless you have access to very specific skills? The answer is undeniably yes. There are far less necromancers and guardians roaming than there are mesmers, thieves, rangers, and holosmiths (all of who utilize stealth + gap closers/escapes to remain roaming viable).

I guess even if you think I am terrible, please just address these question. I really am curious to see if I am overreacting, or if this genuinely frustrates other players. I very nearly uninstalled the game. Not only do I have to run around looking for fights, which sometimes you can go for hours on end without, but when you do bump into somebody, they just.... dont fight but try to one shot you and reset and repeat!

Note - I had just reset my razer synapse, so my microphone is very very low, which in this case, happened to be a good thing due to how much cursing was involved while trying to land a hit on the deadeye. Have managed to fix it, but only after the "fight".

<1

Comments

  • LaFurion.3167LaFurion.3167 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    Hmm I am very sorry but the clip that I made does not seem to be linking properly on this website. It is the 09:23 long video, thumbnail is of my charr warrior gliding down into wvw. I will keep trying to fix the link, but for now, please search and watch if you can!

    Just type /videos/217320678 after twitch dot tv, and it seems to work.

  • @LaFurion.3167 said:
    thread was deleted due to me using some caps locks in it.

    I ironically find this funny

    Power > Condition

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    1) Are Thieves and Mesmers using the stealth + stun break + teleport builds (nearly all of them) to fight with this infinite hit and run style fun to play against? Can you even play against it? I urge you to remember that it is no longer a fight at all. It is just being on a wvw map, out in the open, while the thief or mesmer just infinitely resets so he can try to one shot you, then when he fails, does it again infinitely. I wouldn't mind if they committed to the fight afterwards, and we had a good 1v1, but currently, the game has made it all too easy to reset at very little cost.

    i use a deadeye, more stealth uptime then the one in the video, more damage then the one in the video but less teleports as no sword. it is indeed fun for me to play against a power mesmer or a thief , because i can certainly oneshot them with a backstab and no counterplay to that and the 'fight' is more about getting the other one out of stealth by either interrupting their stealth stacking or by baiting them out if you know they wont backstab oneshot you. for instance most stealthy deadeyes i just wait visible till they shoot, dogge and backstab them or wait stealthed in their black powder so they reveal themselves. power mesmer is also really cool to onehit with backstab as you gain quickness from them to finish them off with AA, faster then their allies react.
    as for deadeye vs spellbreaker, i fight you guys mostly visible cause i can simply kite you. the moment the other thief entered i would have marked him for a nice ~20k backstab and killed you then.
    what you should have done in the case in the video is try limiting his space and focing him to fight melee by goind into the camp and use all objects and pillars for LoS. this way he wont be able to kite you as easily.

    2) Does this need to be fixed? What are some possible fixes for this?

    possible? not without making thief completely useless in WvW. the only thing that thief is best in WvW is being able to escape wich makes him perfect to flip minor objectives while avoiding larger groups. i do think alot of the issue is people dont know just yet how to fight stealth heavy thief builds wich we do see alot more with deadeyes, for a long time there were not many really stealth heavy thieves running around aside from some ghosts thieves, cause it was frowned upon using stealth too much, you even would get insulted by other thieves just for running SA. i do have some people in my FL from other servers, from my travelling around and so they tell me when people talk about me in their public ts, i too often am called a cheater cause too many people just got no clue what i am doing there, without even understanding what i do, how can they expect to counter it. i suggest playing like that a while to see the weaknesses and how to make the life of a stealthy thief really hard.

    3) Has this type of "wvw roaming" (which it isnt, by the way.... -_-) made other classes very very unviable to roam, unless you have access to very specific skills? The answer is undeniably yes. There are far less necromancers and guardians roaming than there are mesmers, thieves, rangers, and holosmiths (all of who utilize stealth + gap closers/escapes to remain roaming viable).

    no this type does not make other classes nonviable to roam, the fact that there are alot of groups running around and other classes cant avoid them is the issue. for group roaming necromancer and firebrand are actually quite strong.

    I guess even if you think I am terrible, please just address these question. I really am curious to see if I am overreacting, or if this genuinely frustrates other players. I very nearly uninstalled the game. Not only do I have to run around looking for fights, which sometimes you can go for hours on end without, but when you do bump into somebody, they just.... dont fight but try to one shot you and reset and repeat!

    from the whispers i have recieved i can assure you that it frustrates alot more people, but the main reason such a playstyle exists is people not being able to fight it. i mean my DJ rarely gets avoided, so why would i use other skills and put my self at risk if i know my opponent wont dogge? i mostly attack only to keep people from running away. one of my very first oneshots was against a warrior from drakkar lake he had 3,2k armor(he said) and was certain i am cheating, so i uploaded a recording of that shot ( i did terrible in that fight btw) and he quit gw2 for 3-4 weeks and then just logged in a few times, dunno if he plays regularly again. so yes other people do feel the same.

    if you want to see my original intention behind playing a deadeye:
    when pof came out i returned to gw2 after a longer break and tested the Deadeye like 3 minutes against npcs .. i was certain omg this is so trash nobody will die to that.
    so i switched back to my old daredevil build, during the first 2 weeks i run daily into 6-7 OPEN FIELD anti stealth traps in outnumbered fights. that made me think: that new deadeye got that nice elite skill and the people i fight here are soo bad, i have to try if i can kill them with it, altho i did kill any deadeye i had encountered till then within a second. so i started killing them with deadeye and had alot of fun, not really understanding why i didnt get blown up by other thieves like i killed the deadeyes. but i was sure people would learn really fast: Laser => dogge or die. some actually did and the change that malice bonus for DJ works only against marked target made things harder against other thief/mesmer/freshair ele and in theory rangers, till i realized that i can onehit everyone that is a threat to me with a backstab. so now i use DJ against everyone that wont fall for a backstab onehit and very few avoid it, actually false out of range and obstructed messages are more common than people dogging / blocking /reflecting it. still alot of people spamm all their defense skills as soon as i mark them, so i dont even have a reason to attack and when they are done spamming stuff my malice is ready.
    for me if people would avoid oneshots more often, if they made my life harder when trying to stealth etc. then i would swap back to daredevil. in a 1 on 1 daredevil is just faster to kill their opponent and in outnumbered situation if people were not as stupid, i wouldnt finish anyone with deadeye, why i would still have a better chance by skipping downstate with final blow as a daredevil.
    the one thing deadeye is best in is hiding in keeps cause of the elite removing the effect of anti stealth traps, i run into alot of those.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    This game was designed around PvP (conquest), then balanced for 3 years virtually entirely around PvP, then with HoT they also balanced around PvE raids, as far as class design and balance goes WvW has never been given any real consideration, hence there is a lot of stuff that is completely broken in it.

    Things like thief or mirage have a certain degree of balance in conquest, because the ability to engage / disengage nearly at will is offset by there being a punishment for that, which is not being able to contest a capture point and not making effective use of your time whilst the points are still ticking away.

    In WvW on the other hand, that doesn't exist (unless someone is fighting over a camp), so if you have a class/build that can disengage the majority of the time, even when you screw up or get outplayed, then you have a situation which breaks a pretty fundamental design rule of PvP - risk vs reward.

    Which is why for the vast majority of this game, when it comes to roaming (solo and to an extent duo) thief followed by mes have always been very common, they are essentially ez-mode if you are going to solo roam, of course the same thing to varying lesser degrees applies to pretty much everything else that becomes vaguely popular for roaming, like when HoT came out and before druid got nerfed, you had loads of druids, same thing with various warrior build over the years.

    I remember a montage video by that Sindenrer guy (or however you spell it) where a thief thinks he is AFK, tries to gank, but fails / gets outplayed, so the thief starts to shoot off across the map and the only reason that thief died and was punished for his mistake / getting outplayed is because the Sindenrer guy also played thief so was able to catch him, if he played pretty much anything else the thief would of probably been able to get away and would not be punished for his poor play / getting outplayed, and that right there is one of the reasons roaming in this game is dead. (hint: duelling at south camp / SM or ganking players going to or at the back of zergs isn't roaming),

  • I have to agree with meepeY most warriors I see roaming are using shield. I was also surprised by the lack of damage. Most of your hits were only 2k and a single Larcenous Strike from the S/D thief should hit the Deadeye for about 7-10k.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Condition Herald & Power Reaper

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    WvW is not, has never been, and will probably never be balanced in any 1v1 scenario. Stealth in PvP means you lose cap on a point so it's perfectly balanced, not so in WvW. Some stuff is just outright broken in 1v1 encounters, but generally those builds are useless in larger scale fights. How many larger scale groups do you see sitting around wishing they had a condi mirage?

    You can literally distil WvW group play to three classes, FB, Scourge, Tempest. Sure you will see a splash of other classes like SB and Herald, but you can get by with those three just fine, just sub optimal.

    As people have said you can gear yourself to be better for certain encounters 1v1, but generally in roaming you dont have that time. Or go with the meta builds that are meta because they are the most efficient at dealing with whatever is thrown at you.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [mum]

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I have to agree with meepeY most warriors I see roaming are using shield. I was also surprised by the lack of damage. Most of your hits were only 2k and a single Larcenous Strike from the S/D thief should hit the Deadeye for about 7-10k.

    I often hit full zerker warriors for around 6/7k LS.
    it's the same old story though that every other class has a viable spot in a zerg where thief has none but is slammed for the only good thing they have left. I meleed a warrior on my thief and the fight ended in 3 seconds because I did not use mobility.

  • shagwell.1349shagwell.1349 Member ✭✭✭

    "The only good thing they have left"? Thief is great in spvp and has at least four great builds in wvw. Yes, they have not really viable zerg builds but most classes don't.
    The whole design of the thief class is utterly stupid. They bring mobility, stun breaks, evades, endless options to reset fights, stealth and high damage while not having the same high risk other classes with high damage have.
    Same goes for Mirage at the moment and for PU classic mesmer before PoF.
    Anet really has to balance this finally. It's a situation that has gotten worse with every expac.

  • PierPiero.9142PierPiero.9142 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    @K THEN.5162 said:
    As a power stealth spamming mesmer, I actually agree with you! As someone piloting the class on full glass, I feel I have way too many get out of jail free cards via blinks, stealth, and stun breaks with stealth being the worst offender by far. I personally believe that stealth is an incredibly toxic mechanic and if implemented in short durations, is tolerable, but once an individual can start stealthing for +8 seconds especially repeatedly, then it starts to become quite infuriating. To fix this, I always thought that a player would receive the 3 second reveal debuff wenever the stealth effect ends, regardless of whether they damaged someone or not

    Mirage has not the access to stealth of mesmer ( decoy and torch for most ) . Mass invisibility has a really huge cd and jaunt is better and veil is usefull if u play in a party ... not that great for roaming alone so in my opinion stealth on mirage is not a real issue . If you go power mesmer you 'll probably will have torch not traited and if you use your stealth offensively , if you fail your burst, you will not have great stealth to run away. What makes mirage op is not stealth but it is its great mobility

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I meant ganking and or small scale roaming with in wvw. Most classes don't? Pretty much all medeim specs are not zerg viable compared to the rest of the games classes. Anyway theres arguments will never end because non thief players will always have a problem with this class while people who play thief and other classes say different, a prime example is the op- why are you going up agasint a deadeye as a hammer gs warrior? And then complain in stream about it, whip out your rifle, go find some Los.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    @Turk.5460 said:
    There are not a lot of builds that will be effective against every other build. They all have some weakness to exploit, and most have a build from another profession that directly counters them.

    This!

    @OP:
    Best thing you can do, when you want to have a less frustrating roaming experience is to run a build that can deal with the builds you can expect to encounter when roaming.

    So roaming is pretty painful, if you can't deal with thieves and mesmers in general. And to deal with these classes you need at least (!) a non telegraphed (=instant) burst on a low cooldown (as they will reset the fight a few times). And even then trailblazer/dire condi mirage and condi thief are pure cheese.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    Once again; the only solution is to redesign thief from the ground up with a competitive design vision. Until then, if you want to play against a healthy competitive rogue profession; need look no further than gw2 competitors

  • My issue with these complaints is that a good player running a meta roaming build would have been able to kill the Deadeye in a 1 on 1 fight. That's true for both the Spellbreaker and S/D Thief.

    I dislike stealth and find it annoying to fight against, but what you have to realize is that they are standing next to you and can take damage. I finish off a lot of Mesmers and Thieves by immediately spamming Cluster Bomb as they enter stealth.

    If I'm on a zerg build which can't deal with a roamer I just walk away since I know I'm at a huge disadvantage. The other option is to group up and play dirty by placing stealth traps. Nothing is more funny than seeing a thief panic after hitting a stealth trap.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Condition Herald & Power Reaper

  • @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    I often hit full zerker warriors for around 6/7k LS.

    I've been at 8/9k, but I gave up quite a bit of defense by replacing my Sigil of Energy so I have both Sigil of Force and Sigil of Strength. I've seen 10k hits but those are rare given the ramp up time.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Condition Herald & Power Reaper

  • @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    There are not a lot of builds that will be effective against every other build. They all have some weakness to exploit, and most have a build from another profession that directly counters them.

    This!

    @OP:
    Best thing you can do, when you want to have a less frustrating roaming experience is to run a build that can deal with the builds you can expect to encounter when roaming.

    So roaming is pretty painful, if you can't deal with thieves and mesmers in general. And to deal with these classes you need at least (!) a non telegraphed (=instant) burst on a low cooldown (as they will reset the fight a few times). And even then trailblazer/dire condi mirage and condi thief are pure cheese.

    What is an example of this on warrior? What spell can just instantly one shot him? Did you see how much I struggled to even be near him? Instant teleports, invis, re teleport, and my only chance is to one shot him?

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    it's the same old story though that every other class has a viable spot in a zerg where thief has none but is slammed for the only good thing they have left.

    Rangers/engies do not have a viable spot in the zerg, mesmers are pretty much back to where they were pre-HoT, i.e - out of the 60 man blob you might want 2 mesmers for veil, because firebrand support is so broken OP it simply overshadows every other support build.

    The idea that thief (and for that matter mirage, pre-nerf druid, etc) are fine being broken OP when it comes to roaming, because they are underpowered in large groups is nonsense, that isn't balanced, nor good game design, nor even good for the game. It doesn't even work as a logical premise in practice, because after thief/mes the next best roaming class currently is probably warrior, yet that class is also currently a requirement in zergs.

    The only thing I'd say is there is a laughable level of hypocrisy from most WvW players (the poor dears aren't generally very bright) when it comes to thief/mes roaming, in that many will be fine pointing out how broken they are when it comes to roaming, but never mutter a word about how broken OP guards, necros, etc are for large scale.

    The thing is, given ANet's track record, how willing do you really think the thief community is at saying "Yup, we need to redesign aspects of our class because of one case in one game mode."

    I've advocated for years to properly fix the thief, but I'm almost beginning to agree that it's better for ANet to not get involved at this point.

    Want the real fix? Remove non-hit stealth and smoke fields. No longer you have cheese D/P 1HKO thief, cheese stealth bunker/burst boon druid, and cheese 1HKO mesmer or the condi variant that just loads you up with conditions and durdles invisible if you cleanse.

    S/D thief feels unfair because now both halves or FS/LS combo are unblockable which makes it basically guaranteed. Problem is this is just because of the rest of the powercreep since HoT; so few classes have so little defensive downtime that the skill otherwise quickly becomes useless.

    The raw damage isn't the problem in most cases, either. My reaper Spirals for nearly 25k. I've auto'ed people on it for 6k and then 7k with GS into another 8k LSS on the same hit. Professions like the thief/mesmer strictly depend on these mechanics to stay alive just as much as warrior does DP/EP, guardians on blocks, etc.

    While I agree chain stealth is busted (stealth itself isn't; CnD for example is one of the most balanced skills in the game), a lot of the issues at hand are just symptoms of way bigger systematic ones with all the professions right now. Take away the relative tools from these professions and they're literally worthless eveywhere. Buff the others more and they're just bigger stat sticks on the frontline and requiring a huge skill difference for others to pull a win from.

    Thieves right now deal too much damage in spammable ways, for example. They were useless in PvE after HoT, so ANet buffed their AA's by 30-40% on base coefficients. Mind you, prior to HoT, this was already on the class with the second best AA chain in the game (by a very small margin) in terms of raw coefficients, beaten only by D/x necro, and packed a lot of damage modifiers for what was easily best DPS.

    That's how much powercreep has happened with these expansions. ANet needed to buff that by 30-40% just to make the class not be literally useless in PvE.

    The game was just generally a lot better when things were more telegraphed and cooldowns were appropriately long. At the moment, so much is instant-speed anime-style insanity that it really defeats the purpose of participating in PvP activities altogether. Welcome to Build Wars 2.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    @LaFurion.3167 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    There are not a lot of builds that will be effective against every other build. They all have some weakness to exploit, and most have a build from another profession that directly counters them.

    This!

    @OP:
    Best thing you can do, when you want to have a less frustrating roaming experience is to run a build that can deal with the builds you can expect to encounter when roaming.

    So roaming is pretty painful, if you can't deal with thieves and mesmers in general. And to deal with these classes you need at least (!) a non telegraphed (=instant) burst on a low cooldown (as they will reset the fight a few times). And even then trailblazer/dire condi mirage and condi thief are pure cheese.

    What is an example of this on warrior? What spell can just instantly one shot him? Did you see how much I struggled to even be near him? Instant teleports, invis, re teleport, and my only chance is to one shot him?

    imo warrior doesnt have a burst that is fast enough to threaten a thief currently. when i returned at PoF release from my break i found warriors freekills compared to before my break when they had faster burst from their berserk form with GS, there i had to concentrate to dogge properly - but that was removed during my break or for what ever reason noone uses it anymore. now everything is highly telegraphed and most skills dont do enough damage so i can tank a few hits.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Honestly, is it any different from the rangers who spam stealth and pew pew then reset, the warriors that have 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 damage markers for hours, guard sustain bots, ele sustain bots, holosmith double elixir X with rocket boots and oh yeah stealth, or necro dire barrier spammers? All classes are a bit out of control currently. Its snooze wars with all these invuls and stealth mechanics with a very lack luster of diversity.

    The best time was early on in wvw, you had one "holy kitten" button your elite, and that's the way it should be. Today, you have an entire arsenal of "holy kitten" passives and skills at your disposal full escapes, stealth outta the butt, and invuls to reset yourself for an absurd amount of time. It was basic back then but it worked with what I think had more diversity with 5 trait lines to pick from. We are locked to 3 boring ones now.

    Players want the satisfaction of the kill. I'm sure we all experience that moment, you get another player down to x% hp and you got them right? Nope, their passive kicks in and they tuck tail and run. Before you know it they blinked to queensdale.

    Remove the passive crutches, remove the invul skills all together, remove the double dipping example: elixir X, signet of stone, and endure pain. You get a limited access and that's final. However, I doubt anet is willing to make that strict move being players will cry.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    There are not a lot of builds that will be effective against every other build. They all have some weakness to exploit, and most have a build from another profession that directly counters them.

    This!

    @OP:
    Best thing you can do, when you want to have a less frustrating roaming experience is to run a build that can deal with the builds you can expect to encounter when roaming.

    So roaming is pretty painful, if you can't deal with thieves and mesmers in general. And to deal with these classes you need at least (!) a non telegraphed (=instant) burst on a low cooldown (as they will reset the fight a few times). And even then trailblazer/dire condi mirage and condi thief are pure cheese.

    What is an example of this on warrior? What spell can just instantly one shot him? Did you see how much I struggled to even be near him? Instant teleports, invis, re teleport, and my only chance is to one shot him?

    imo warrior doesnt have a burst that is fast enough to threaten a thief currently. when i returned at PoF release from my break i found warriors freekills compared to before my break when they had faster burst from their berserk form with GS, there i had to concentrate to dogge properly - but that was removed during my break or for what ever reason noone uses it anymore. now everything is highly telegraphed and most skills dont do enough damage so i can tank a few hits.

    have you played against the core build currently? That can easily oneshot. Its completely possible to play warri with a lot, if not full, zerker gear currently, so everything hits hard, yet remaining relatively tanky.
    To the topic: Huge l2p issue mostly imo. I think you wrote in another thread that you completed your ascended stuff just a week ago and it seems you haven´t played that much (you having a legy propably means you made a long pause). Have you played other classes, because knowing how classes work is important. What gear were you using exactly in the video? Together with the thief the deadeye shouldn´t have been any problem. You weren´t exactly failing at hitting your skills, but it looks rather spammy. You even play with bullcharge, but when you miss your CC´s and don´t burst adequately you will and should fail at killing. At least you mostly dodged DJ.

  • Roaming with hammer and without Shield? No Endure Pain or Berserker Stance?
    Starting with 100blades? Using Whirlwind 2s after the thief stealthes? Using melee attacks at range? Burning bursts when the enemy is far away? Wasting full counter?

    There are so many things wrong with your performance, thief/mesmer OP'ness becomes secondary...

  • LaFurion.3167LaFurion.3167 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    >

    have you played against the core build currently? That can easily oneshot. Its completely possible to play warri with a lot, if not full, zerker gear currently, so >everything hits hard, yet remaining relatively tanky.
    To the topic: Huge l2p issue mostly imo. I think you wrote in another thread that you completed your ascended stuff just a week ago and it seems you haven´t >played that much (you having a legy propably means you made a long pause). Have you played other classes, because knowing how classes work is important. What >gear were you using exactly in the video? Together with the thief the deadeye shouldn´t have been any problem. You weren´t exactly failing at hitting your skills, but >it looks rather spammy. You even play with bullcharge, but when you miss your CC´s and don´t burst adequately you will and should fail at killing. At least you >mostly dodged DJ.

    Yes, I do realize that I made mistakes in the fight, I even mentioned some of them. My issue is not that my inexperience is a wall preventing me from performing (well or even decently vs classes), but the mechanics of stealth, mobility, and "fighting style" of dead eye and mirage that requires very little effort or trade off. I know that I am not the best player, running not the best build, but even then, seeing the dead eye teleport infinitely and invis infinitely infuriates me to no end, as it is (for me), literally impossible to fight them; they have way too much lee way.

  • Also, thank you all for your comments, both sides are refreshing to me. The people agreeing with me does confirm to me that the playstyle at least is legit cancer.

    The people that have pointed out my mistakes and other factors that could have let me kill him does make me wonder, and realize that I can do better and perhaps kill these types of players, even if only with perfect game play that will only come with more experience. I just wish that nobody ever has to deal with something like that ever again lol.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2018

    @Coronit.9432 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    There are not a lot of builds that will be effective against every other build. They all have some weakness to exploit, and most have a build from another profession that directly counters them.

    This!

    @OP:
    Best thing you can do, when you want to have a less frustrating roaming experience is to run a build that can deal with the builds you can expect to encounter when roaming.

    So roaming is pretty painful, if you can't deal with thieves and mesmers in general. And to deal with these classes you need at least (!) a non telegraphed (=instant) burst on a low cooldown (as they will reset the fight a few times). And even then trailblazer/dire condi mirage and condi thief are pure cheese.

    What is an example of this on warrior? What spell can just instantly one shot him? Did you see how much I struggled to even be near him? Instant teleports, invis, re teleport, and my only chance is to one shot him?

    imo warrior doesnt have a burst that is fast enough to threaten a thief currently. when i returned at PoF release from my break i found warriors freekills compared to before my break when they had faster burst from their berserk form with GS, there i had to concentrate to dogge properly - but that was removed during my break or for what ever reason noone uses it anymore. now everything is highly telegraphed and most skills dont do enough damage so i can tank a few hits.

    have you played against the core build currently? That can easily oneshot. Its completely possible to play warri with a lot, if not full, zerker gear currently, so everything hits hard, yet remaining relatively tanky.

    yes they can hit hard, but not fast enough therefor too easy to dogge. else you could as well say hammer rev is strong against deadeye as a CoR would onehit me - but guess the chances of that hitting me or a reaper being strong against deadeye as they can kill me in no time if i was melee, but they rarely even get into range to do something. warrior can get rather close with all the gap closers but that is not enough unless i fail to dogge a bulls charge and dont have a stunbreak ready, but that skill is so obvious i would deserve to die if i get hit by it.
    there are a few warriors tho that i cannot kill, if they dogge all DJ and when i kite them and they miss 2 of their gap closers they turn around and move other direction. so if i want to kill them i have to fight while staying in range of their gap closers so i need to dogge their skills, they simply wont fight me when i outrange them. problem is melee i only have 2 dogges + heal evade and that wont be enough to dogge every thing so i would need to go on more range rather quick again so they would again reset if i attack them from out of their range. there is also the issue that i can hardly go into stealth while in melee as 4 of my 5 ways to get into stealth can be interrupted, if i want to kite without stealth i need to use DR alot wich costs alot of ini and can also be interrupted and it might not even port me 1 unit.
    so basically in a deadeye vs warrior fight the deadeye will win if he can use is range advantage, when the space is limited the warrior has an advantage if the deadeye can not open a gap. this is mainly the case inside many towers/keeps so there i just hope to oneshot cause everything else is too risky. if i only try oneshots cause the envoirment wont let me kite, alot of warriors will start trying to reflect instead of evade, this i also like to abuse by switching quickly to basi venom. and even the 'best' wont allways dogge, so i either kill the warrior even in limited space or they leave. cause i can avoid their attemps to burst for a short time after the shot, also in melee as they are not instant and then return to stealthcamping. just if possible i kite them visible as i have made the experience, that this lowers the chance of them running away and i will have faster max malice, therefor a longer period to use a oneshotting DJ and can attemp like 3-4 times with one mark or even more if i use esc cancel - havent seen one so far that was able to avoid 3 DJs during one mark period they mostly use an attack after 1. or 2. and fail to cancel it. mostly a gapcloser that can only be canceld with weapon swap.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • CrimsonNeonite.1048CrimsonNeonite.1048 Member ✭✭
    edited January 19, 2018

    So what? Deadeye is a bad elite compared to daredevil, or even the years' old shadow arts build.

    I've pretty much given up trying to roam anyway, because of so much broken the balance of the game, is in this game mode, not just because of mobility, sustain, burst and stealth - build wars 2. The game mode won't be balanced for 1v1s, especially with different gear and stat choices, and balance patches focusing on PVE/PvP.

    I think mesmers are stronger than thieves nowadays though, especially the past 4 years, simply because, they don't need to position themselves like a d/p backstab thief does, even we have a cd on backstab these days. At least thieves having mobility and stealth, as they havs been designed for, gives them some chance in certain situations and fights, outside of larger scale fights, where AOE melts.

    Just remember the mode will never be balanced for small scale wvw, not even PvP is balanced these days, but it can be more controlled there. You have to pick and choose your fights or even group up with other players, don't try to 1v1 unless you feel comfortable with your build or class.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    Roaming more like rekt by more than one person.

  • OP you are not the only one feeling that way in WvW, so do not feel bad. The fact of the matter is that there is almost zero room for counter-play with some of these specs we are seeing now.

    Condi Mirage to me is the worst offender followed by Scourge and Deadeye.

    I see small groups now of Scourges, Firebrands, and Mirages all the time now, sometimes a Deadeye is thrown in for just that extra bit of salty taste.

    At this point coming across a Daredevil, Necro, or Mesmer feels like hitting the lotto.

    I just dont see much of anything else besides this OP cheese comp BS all the time. It really sucks and it takes the fun out of the game real quick. I miss my fights with Scrappers, Core Warriors, Guardians and even the fuzzy cuddly teefs.

    Where are you guys?

    The other night it was so bad all five skills on my bar were anti-condi and it still was not enough with these cheese groups rolling around all over the place.

    So dont worry, others are suffering and getting frustrated as well.

  • @sneakytails.5629 said:
    OP you are not the only one feeling that way in WvW, so do not feel bad. The fact of the matter is that there is almost zero room for counter-play with some of these specs we are seeing now.

    Condi Mirage to me is the worst offender followed by Scourge and Deadeye.

    I see small groups now of Scourges, Firebrands, and Mirages all the time now, sometimes a Deadeye is thrown in for just that extra bit of salty taste.

    At this point coming across a Daredevil, Necro, or Mesmer feels like hitting the lotto.

    I just dont see much of anything else besides this OP cheese comp BS all the time. It really sucks and it takes the fun out of the game real quick. I miss my fights with Scrappers, Core Warriors, Guardians and even the fuzzy cuddly teefs.

    Where are you guys?

    The other night it was so bad all five skills on my bar were anti-condi and it still was not enough with these cheese groups rolling around all over the place.

    So dont worry, others are suffering and getting frustrated as well.

    Yeah condi clear vs condi application is in a laughable spot right now :/

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem with the Mirage condi build, is it can't be dodged. Even if you time your dodge perfectly, you still have 16 stacks of confusion on you. Swap weapons real quick for the cleanse on swap, and all you did was clear the cover. Can't attack, can't cleanse the endless spam.

    Carnished Toast (Yum)
    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    The problem with the Mirage condi build, is it can't be dodged. Even if you time your dodge perfectly, you still have 16 stacks of confusion on you. Swap weapons real quick for the cleanse on swap, and all you did was clear the cover. Can't attack, can't cleanse the endless spam.

    Hahaha... I cant even remember the last time I even saw a condi mirage, people dont run that anymore. It's still a one-trick pony in 1v1 vs poor builds with little condi cleanse. Small man groups pretty much all run with a shatter mirage instead (if they have a mesmer) as they are a far more dangerous threat against good players on good builds and grouped enemies.

    At least that's how it seems to be on EU nowadays, the meta has taken a heavy turn toward kitten near immortal power bruiser builds backed by dps in a rough 75/25 ratio and for the dps they will probably be either power or hybrid builds with only some scourge running full condi.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    3) Has this type of "wvw roaming" (which it isnt, by the way.... -_-) made other classes very very unviable to roam, unless you have access to very specific skills? The answer is undeniably yes. There are far less necromancers and guardians roaming than there are mesmers, thieves, rangers, and holosmiths (all of who utilize stealth + gap closers/escapes to remain roaming viable).

    I see a lot more spellbreakers, berserkers and even core warriors roaming around in wvw than holosmiths or rangers. They may lack stealth, but don't underestimate their damage immunity options, (both physical and condition), stability, health regeneration, damage, lockdown potential and mobility.

    The various thief specs are annoying and a little too potent in roaming situations, I agree, but IMO the Mirage spec is the true offender.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • Choppy.4183Choppy.4183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    The problem with the Mirage condi build, is it can't be dodged. Even if you time your dodge perfectly, you still have 16 stacks of confusion on you. Swap weapons real quick for the cleanse on swap, and all you did was clear the cover. Can't attack, can't cleanse the endless spam.

    Hahaha... I cant even remember the last time I even saw a condi mirage, people dont run that anymore. It's still a one-trick pony in 1v1 vs poor builds with little condi cleanse. Small man groups pretty much all run with a shatter mirage instead (if they have a mesmer) as they are a far more dangerous threat against good players on good builds and grouped enemies.

    At least that's how it seems to be on EU nowadays, the meta has taken a heavy turn toward kitten near immortal power bruiser builds backed by dps in a rough 75/25 ratio and for the dps they will probably be either power or hybrid builds with only some scourge running full condi.

    Naw man, it's still a thing. It's like training wheels before someone is ready for power shatter, which is itself pretty faceroll.

    I'd say 20% of roaming or small group mesmers I come across are rolling super defense condi still.

    I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
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  • I'd rather fight a deadeye any day compared to most of the condi spam classes out there today.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2018

    @style.6173 said:
    I'd rather fight a deadeye any day compared to most of the condi spam classes out there today.

    the only issue with dead eye is due the "defense vs crits power creep", and bad player still can have access to extremelly high damage build rather thant need to have any kind of depth knowledge towards the class/build, that is how i played hammer zerker on WvW, 15k+ aoe plus 4-10k(crit) from the aoe flame blast sigil.. is everything i need to know it will hapen due build gimmick... when i press a button, i didnt even unlocked the elite trait, i only have a normal healing, not even condi cleanses...

    btw deadeye it is not that bad, there are far far worse imbas on the game.

  • Endure pain have 60 seconds cooldown.

    End of debate.

    Warriors dont teleport, dont have minions, dont stealth, dont range and their attacks are slow and predictable.

    Theives here should say the truth ; They one shot people while in stealth. How is it fun for anyone to be one shotted in the first place and how is it fun to fight a perma-dodge/stealth ennemy ?

    Please tell me when was the last time a warrior one shotted someone... Even with 25 power stacks, it is almost impossible...

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