Stupid poll. Please ignore.

Edit:the mods moved the thread to the profession subforum, a fatal blow to the sampling process and therefore the validity of the poll*Until the thread is moved back, Renegade mains should abstain from voting in the poll to counter some of the self-selection.

The Legendary Renegade Stance uses AI that can be cced and/or killed. This has severely limited their usage in WvW. Unlike Mesmer, or Ranger, the Renegade has no way to postpone or prevent the disabling/destruction of their AI.

I propose the AI be made untargetable:Pros:

1. they would be uncounterable once summoned and much more usable in WvW.
2. they would no longer that buffs that should have gone to allies.
3. no pathing problems4.This technology already exists with Guardian's spirit weaponsCons:
4. they wouldn't be able to tank the aoe cap, body block projectiles, or draw aggro
5. Darkrazor is incredibly strong

I've made the poll anonymous. This poll should be in the general forum because feedback from just the Revenant community is too biased.

Edit:

Darkrazor is making this idea difficult. An untargetable Darkrazor could be used a free siege disabler or stab counter in WvW. But I don't want the skill removed unless they rebalance the cast times on the other skills.

Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

1. Except Gw2 spirits are not killable. The spirit weapons are literally untargetable. And the Ranger spirits continue to function after they are killed.
2. Their effects are not more powerful than other aoe in the game. 4/5 have no meta usage in any gamemode. And one, the bleed aura, is used for pve raid builds only, and not as often as other condi professions.

@"Samnang.1879" said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

I think you might be mistaken. None of the renegade summons, including the damage oriented one, do anything close to the damage of shades. And three don't do any damage at all.

Here they are https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Renegade_Stance

I am logging into PVP now and will get back to you on the power of stacking them.

Update:Your fears are unfounded.

I used this glass cannon renegade build to test: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAscinXMvNSum7JRZzVlst5rSY3cWJ4beskFNl6/HLylkdMWj3odACgGA-jZROABu/IAk/IAAw+DqfCAgpMAA

1. The only way Icerazor delivers 20 strikes to the same target is if they stand over it for the full duration.
2. Even if that condition is met, all combinations of summons not only do less damage than a Scourge, they also do less damage than the weapon skills on the revenant.

No, not because I think it's an inherently bad idea, but because LAST TIME they took a cool and fun set of minion-y skills this direction they wound up removing them from the game and replacing them with boring generic non-minion skills instead of putting in ANY FREAKING WORK AT ALL to balance them or fix their mechanical issues.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Samnang.1879" said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

use condi dmg gear, and spawn them on a point, if they dont die u get tons of bleeds...

and rip@ppl voting "no" when they're meant to vote "yes"

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Samnang.1879" said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

Kalla's warband is extraordinarily underwhelming. I don't hate the idea of the skills, they just need to have stronger effects. As it stands, the only one a pvp player needs to be somewhat wary of is darkrazor, and they can simply CC it off the point if they want. The rest of them can easily be ignored. Leave them able to be killed, but make them immune to CC, and give them effects that are actually threatening. Players should be forced to choose whether to kill them, or get out of the circle.

what does this post at all have to do with PVE .??

@Conncept.7638 said:No, not because I think it's an inherently bad idea, but because LAST TIME they took a cool and fun set of minion-y skills this direction they wound up removing them from the game and replacing them with boring generic non-minion skills instead of putting in ANY FREAKING WORK AT ALL to balance them or fix their mechanical issues.

They put in work for the AI essential classes.

• Chrono and Druid have meta supportive abilities and ways to reset the health of their AI burdens.
• Soulbeast went the route of ignoring the AI entirely
• Mirage allows you to invuln and reassign the AI
• all summons now have damage reduction to AoE

@Samnang.1879 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

What? First, razor claw, does not deal bleed damage. You do. If you put it on point and do not attack it does nothing. It is no different than any class imbuing their next few attacks with any condi.

Icerazor deals close to no damage and would deal less damage if there are no enemies. And the real damage it does is if it critically hit it will put torment on the target. Try this in open world PvE. It would not even kill a mob.

Dark razor is the only useful one. It will deal a daze every one sec but no damage.

I really wish people understand what they are talking about instead of giving opinions blindly. All three summons combined cannot even kill a mob in PvE.

@otto.5684 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

if u put it on the point, everyone in ur party do the bleeding, it stacks. and it hurts. it's no worse/better than the shades

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

If you nerf their effects at all they will be completely useless, honestly they are all just barely even worth the energy cost... the only reason kalla stance is used is because any other stance offers absolutely nothing to a condi build. The best parts of renegade is citadel bombardment and kallas fervor.

@Samnang.1879 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

• By yourself, you get less bleed than the scepter auto for necro.
• If you are in a group, and everyone stays in the circle for 10 seconds, and attacks once per second, to the same target, you get slightly more single target damage than a necro is able to poop out themselves with scepter auto.
• dividing it like an AoE, it is nowhere close to what Scourge provides
• it is useful for Raids, nowhere else.

@Samnang.1879 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

How is this any different than FB ashes of the just of thief venoms? By your logic condi FB and thief must be dominating sPvP. Are they?! Btw, since it is clear that you do not understand, the reason why scourge is so over powered in sPvP has nothing to do with aoe condi damage and everything to do with boon corruption.

Why was this moved? And without any moderator notifying me?

I wrote in the OP "This poll is in the general forum because feedback from just the Revenant community is clearly not valuable enough." This poll is meant to include people who do not play Revenant but have an interest in how it's balanced.

It makes no sense from a statistical standpoint to have it here. Polls on this forum are already problematic because of self-selection. Asking in a profession subforum is just too biased.

Please move this thread back, or delete it.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:No, not because I think it's an inherently bad idea, but because LAST TIME they took a cool and fun set of minion-y skills this direction they wound up removing them from the game and replacing them with boring generic non-minion skills instead of putting in ANY FREAKING WORK AT ALL to balance them or fix their mechanical issues.

• Chrono and Druid have meta supportive abilities and ways to reset the health of their AI burdens.
• Soulbeast went the route of ignoring the AI entirely
• Mirage allows you to invuln and reassign the AI
• all summons now have damage reduction to AoE

What a load of crap.

First, the guardian needs AI more than any other class in the game, it's non-specialization mechanics are comprised almost entirely of tanking and group support mechanics that scale horribly or even do nothing at all in solo content, which is nearly all of the games open world content and a copious amount of the remaining content. Are you just not supposed to play a guardian in most of the game?

Second; Soulbeasts cannot ignore AI, camping beast mode is playing at a massive handicap. And the mesmers AI reassignment is so much a necessary QoL feature for the base mesmer, and always has been, that it qualifies as no less than passing off and even selling bug fixes as content.

Third, what gives you the right to even make that claim? You didn't play with those abilities so it was totally okay for the developers to do nothing at all to help them along and then remove them, and an entire playstyle with them, from the game? Get over yourself. Your statement did nothing to disprove mine, merely brought up second hand examples showing that the devs were fully capable of retaining and fixing this now lost playstyle, because they did so elsewhere, and they chose not to in favor of removing it, most likely because it was the easier option.

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:No, not because I think it's an inherently bad idea, but because LAST TIME they took a cool and fun set of minion-y skills this direction they wound up removing them from the game and replacing them with boring generic non-minion skills instead of putting in ANY FREAKING WORK AT ALL to balance them or fix their mechanical issues.

• Chrono and Druid have meta supportive abilities and ways to reset the health of their AI burdens.
• Soulbeast went the route of ignoring the AI entirely
• Mirage allows you to invuln and reassign the AI
• all summons now have damage reduction to AoE

They created elite specializations to address certain flaws. They aren't going to create an unbalanced redundancy by buffing core as well. And from a marketing standpoint, it makes no sense for a solution to a problem to be found in the f2p section of the game.

Second; Soulbeasts cannot ignore AI, camping beast mode is playing at a massive handicap. And the mesmers AI reassignment is so much a necessary QoL feature for the base mesmer, and always has been, that it qualifies as no less than passing off and even selling bug fixes as content.

So? Even when the pet is out you can let it do its own thing and then signet of stone/pet swap/heal/etc through whatever happened. The need for micromanaging has gone way down.

Third, what gives you the right to even make that claim? [snip]...

It's not a "claim". All professions have summons https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon but only Mesmer and Ranger have it as a profession mechanic. Which is why only Mesmer and Ranger have it addressed when ANET is "selling bug fixes as content"

Kalla is fine in pve. Kalla is not a choice in pvp. Making the pets immune or instant or anything wont make renegade playable in pvp.

Renegade feels like it was made for another game, no consideration for gw2 at all. Everything on it is so boring, slow and weak.

misc ranting I am annoyed by this pve only rev situation.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.the ridiculous cost is enough tradeoff, cast 2 spirits and you're out of power.no weapon skills, no utilities, just autos until you get power back.

@Liewec.2896 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.the ridiculous cost is enough tradeoff, cast 2 spirits and you're out of power.no weapon skills, no utilities, just autos until you get power back.

That is not the tradeoff. That's the base behavior of revenant utility skills.

That happens with most revenant utility skills because they have short recharges or no recharges at all, and you get +50 energy every 10 seconds, +75 if you bring Charged Mists and use it properly.That's why most of them cost 20...35 energy.Plus they have rather powerful effects. Having reduced costs would mean increased recharges or lamer effects. And I like my Jade Winds pretty much. So I'd rather not lose that.

@"Samnang.1879" said:yes. necros' indestructible shades are already annoying as it is... in pvp u can't stand on a point cuz their shades will insta kill u... and u can't kil them.don't want the same dilemma with renegades

Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

For me the renegade legend is too weak for several reasons1) Summons can be cc'd2) the energy cost is too high for the effect it gives3) Only 2 of 5 skills are really usefull (on condi or healing aspect) ... no point on power builds4) Elite is too weak should buff dmg and regen and not siphon life.

• the renegade aspect such as hEroic command having a too short radius to be usable easily

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

Are you afraid for rev to have an updated spec that is as good as the other POF specs or what?

They are the like the weakest aoe skills in game, that are able to be killed and have their duration reduced to nothing, and they cost an insane amount of energy.