What is your main? Should Renegade summons remain targetable?

The Revenant's Legendary Renegade Stance uses AI that can be cced and/or killed. This has severely limited their usage in WvW. Unlike Mesmer, or Ranger, the Renegade has no way to postpone or prevent the disabling/destruction of their AI. I propose the AI be made untargetable, similar to Guardian spirit weapons

Here are copy-paste pros/cons from another thread.

If summons were untargetable:

Pros:

1. they would be uncounterable once summoned and much more usable in WvW.
2. they would no longer steal buffs from allied summons
3. no pathing problems

• if they made it untargetable by converting it into an animation you could cast it in all the place you can cast normal AoE

4.This technology already exists.

Cons:

1. they wouldn't be able to tank, body-block, draw aggro
2. Darkrazor as it is now would be a free siege disabler.

If you multiclass Revenant, but it is not your main, still select Revenant.

It seems pretty limiting to make it the only set of utilities in the game (I'm pretty sure) that can be interacted with by enemies. What makes them that much different from a well, or a banner that they need to have the weakness of being destroyable?

What is the poll here I'm confused, why does my main have anything to do with it?

@"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:What is the poll here I'm confused, why does my main have anything to do with it?

This is a qualitative survey about balancing a Revenant utility type

• balance is subjective
• one's main can affect their opinion so it's necessary to record this information for all participants

If enough people answer. The data will be compiled into stat key. To look something like this:http://www.lock5stat.com/StatKey/descriptive_2_cat/descriptive_2_cat.html

It still makes no sense. Warrior banners operate differently than guardian spirit weapons. Thieves guild operates differently than ranger pets or spirits, and operate differently than engi turrets. Necro minions operate differently than mesmer clones, which work differently than ele elemental summons. All you're doing is combining professions of an armor class, none of their AI things operate the same way.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:It still makes no sense. Warrior banners operate differently than guardian spirit weapons. Thieves guild operates differently than ranger pets or spirits, and operate differently than engi turrets. Necro minions operate differently than mesmer clones, which work differently than ele elemental summons. All you're doing is combining professions of an armor class, none of their AI things operate the same way.

Yes? And? This question is about their opinion on Revenant's summons, not their own.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:It still makes no sense. Warrior banners operate differently than guardian spirit weapons. Thieves guild operates differently than ranger pets or spirits, and operate differently than engi turrets. Necro minions operate differently than mesmer clones, which work differently than ele elemental summons. All you're doing is combining professions of an armor class, none of their AI things operate the same way.

It makes no sense, you won't get any good data by combining armor classes and asking their main along with another question. If you want to know yes/no on the rev summons ask it. If you want to know what professions think of rev summons actually have a place to put your profession not your profession and one of 1-2 others.

It doesnt matter what class someone is, they suck no matter who the Revenant is playing against. Renegade is just poorly designed, poorly implemented and poorly balanced throughout the spec, traits, legend and weapon.

Renegade is what happens when you are rushed and trying to push something out quickly. The whole thing was poorly put together. Anybody can see it was rushed. Just very curious as to why nobody has bothered to fix an obviously broken, and basically unplayable spec.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:It doesnt matter what class someone is, they suck no matter who the Revenant is playing against. Renegade is just poorly designed, poorly implemented and poorly balanced throughout the spec, traits, legend and weapon.

It matters for legitimacy. Honestly, the poll could have been:

• revenant, yes
• revenant, no
• not revenant, yes
• not revenant, no

The armor groups are just more in-depth while yielding the above information as well.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:It matters for legitimacy. Honestly, the poll could have been:

• revenant, yes
• revenant, no
• not revenant, yes
• not revenant, no

The armor groups are just more in-depth while yielding the above information as well.

The class someone plays doesnt matter because EVERY class and build can and SHOULD be easily killing renegades. They are by far the weakest spec in the game, just like base Revenant. Poorly designed, poorly implemented, poorly balanced. I do think most builds could beat several Renegades at the same time, especially if they insist on using the legend and the short bow. Both SO weak that they arent worth even having.

Why is there no multiclass option that includes rev? This makes your poll invalid as not all options are accounted for.

@Rufo.3716 said:Renegade is what happens when you are rushed and trying to push something out quickly. The whole thing was poorly put together. Anybody can see it was rushed. Just very curious as to why nobody has bothered to fix an obviously broken, and basically unplayable spec.

Because they dont care about the class. It has been broken from day one. They just did a flat buff to damage for everything, then slowly needed it to uselessness again. The only reason they were good before was their OP sword 1, and herald as a buff machine. Both of the elites should have been part of the class from the beginning.

@Yannir.4132 said:Why is there no multiclass option that includes rev? This makes your poll invalid as not all options are accounted for.

If you multiclass and Rev is one of them, then select Rev.

I could only make 10 options.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:It matters for legitimacy. Honestly, the poll could have been:

• revenant, yes
• revenant, no
• not revenant, yes
• not revenant, no

The armor groups are just more in-depth while yielding the above information as well.

You clearly think Renegade is extremely weak but it's helpful to have opinions from several different sources.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You clearly think Renegade is extremely weak but it's helpful to have opinions from several different sources.

That is because it is weak. At the moment, Renegade is the spec i fear the LEAST. It has no threat. No damage. If they are silly enough to actually use the Short bow then they might as well not be using a weapon at all. the damage is lacking, the conditions are lacking, the threat is lacking. The legend is just kinda poorly designed. Easy to get out of. Easy to counter and kill.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:It still makes no sense. Warrior banners operate differently than guardian spirit weapons. Thieves guild operates differently than ranger pets or spirits, and operate differently than engi turrets. Necro minions operate differently than mesmer clones, which work differently than ele elemental summons. All you're doing is combining professions of an armor class, none of their AI things operate the same way.

The primary question is yes/no, revenant/non-revenant. That question is addressed using the max of 10 poll options.The armor class is just extra data that is not critical to the survey but is interesting nonetheless.

Don't focus on it so much. I could have grouped by the last letter of the profession:

• revenant, yes
• revenant, no
• ends in f, yes
• ends in f, no
• ends in r, yes
• ends in r, no
• ends in t (not revenant), yes
• ends in t (not revenant), no
• ends in n, yes
• ends in n, no

That part doesn't matter.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:The primary question is yes/no, revenant/non-revenant. That question is addressed using the max of 10 poll options.The armor class is just extra data that is not critical to the survey but is interesting nonetheless.

Don't focus on it so much. I could have grouped by the last letter:

• revenant, yes
• revenant, no
• thief, yes
• thief, no
• mesmer, ranger, engineer, necromancer, warrior, yes
• mesmer, ranger, engineer, necromancer, warrior, no
• elementalist, yes
• elementalist, no
• guardian, yes
• guardian, no

On ALL the classes i play (i have all but warrior) i fear Renegade on none of them.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:The primary question is yes/no, revenant/non-revenant. That question is addressed using the max of 10 poll options.The armor class is just extra data that is not critical to the survey but is interesting nonetheless.

Don't focus on it so much. I could have grouped by the last letter:

• revenant, yes
• revenant, no
• thief, yes
• thief, no
• mesmer, ranger, engineer, necromancer, warrior, yes
• mesmer, ranger, engineer, necromancer, warrior, no
• elementalist, yes
• elementalist, no
• guardian, yes
• guardian, no

Cool. Then select the one you play the most and no.

I think the fact that Herald is still the only version of Revenant you see anywhere, and you don’t see a whole lot of them these days, either. That should be evident for ANET, that they screwed the pooch on that one. If I had purchased PoF so I can experience Renegade and the way the E-spec was advertised , I would’ve asked for a refund 3 months ago, and rightfully so.It is by far the most underperforming PoF spec, and easily one of the most underperforming professions in the game as a whole (Herald is sorta, kinda alright).Honestly I was a bit surprised that none of it really got addressed in the last balance patch, or the one before that.@ArenaNet @Raymond Lukes.6305 @Gaile Gray.6029 @Mark Katzbach.9084

What’re you folks doing to fix this obvious design shortcoming?

@Arlette.9684 said:I think the fact that Herald is still the only version of Revenant you see anywhere, and you don’t see a whole lot of them these days, either. That should be evident for ANET, that they screwed the pooch on that one. If I had purchased PoF so I can experience Renegade and the way the E-spec was advertised , I would’ve asked for a refund 3 months ago, and rightfully so.It is by far the most underperforming PoF spec, and easily one of the most underperforming professions in the game as a whole (Herald is sorta, kinda alright).Honestly I was a bit surprised that none of it really got addressed in the last balance patch, or the one before that.@ArenaNet @Raymond Lukes.6305 @Gaile Gray.6029 @"Mark Katzbach.9084"

What’re you folks doing to fix this obvious design shortcoming?

I'm guessing they don't want the elite stances to have the same power as other elite spec skills because you can slot two legends.

So far Rev is only truly meta in two places because of artificial niches:

~~1. In WvW only Rev has facets and only Rev have built-in pierce and cascade on a 1200 range weapon.~

• If Hammer's Coalescence of Ruin was turned into Rapid-Fire Rev would leave the meta.

2. Hand Kiting during Deimos is the only part of the game where you need a somewhat tanky long range sustain healer.
   • Otherwise you just use burst healers that provide dps, melee sustain healers that provide defensive utility, or you ignore all of that and just blast waterfields.~~

I'll eat my words on the concept of niches.

Everyone has a niche. It's not something to be bitter about.

With the changes to invocation, Revs dps in raids is very good. And its unique buffs put it ahead of classes with slightly more personal dps. The same can be said I WvW.

The problem is its freecasting style is harder to balance in PvP

I find rev a fun class to just dink around on using herald. Though no one is wrong in that revenant is an inherently weak class. Honestly speaking, the very reasont hey weaken Rev is because you cans lot two legends right? Yet then why is engineer not also excrutiatingly weak? Heck if number of available skills and flexibility is what leads to being relegated and made weaker...elementalist should be the weakest most pathetic class in the game!

Rev needs an overhaul from the ground up to be made into a proper class, and both of the epics need fixed to feel properly powerful. Herald should be /the/ buffing spec in the game. IE /nothing/ should out perform it. Renegade needs to feel...something. It needs it's niche. Either the various summons need to act like necromancer ones and always be around (at which point them being targetable is fine) or they need to be like spirit weapons and simply be flavor for the effect and that is all. As they are...they aren't usable in pvp at all as they often get demolished. Even in PvE just messing around in the open world they often get interupted/become useless. ...and this doesn't begin to solve the problem of the shortbow being pathetic.

@"Runiir.6425" said:I find rev a fun class to just dink around on using herald. Though no one is wrong in that revenant is an inherently weak class. Honestly speaking, the very reasont hey weaken Rev is because you cans lot two legends right? Yet then why is engineer not also excrutiatingly weak? Heck if number of available skills and flexibility is what leads to being relegated and made weaker...elementalist should be the weakest most pathetic class in the game!

Rev needs an overhaul from the ground up to be made into a proper class, and both of the epics need fixed to feel properly powerful. Herald should be /the/ buffing spec in the game. IE /nothing/ should out perform it. Renegade needs to feel...something. It needs it's niche. Either the various summons need to act like necromancer ones and always be around (at which point them being targetable is fine) or they need to be like spirit weapons and simply be flavor for the effect and that is all. As they are...they aren't usable in pvp at all as they often get demolished. Even in PvE just messing around in the open world they often get interupted/become useless. ...and this doesn't begin to solve the problem of the shortbow being pathetic.

Ele isn't meta right now in PvP either. But both professions are meta in WvW and Raids. Also, it's not about the number of skills you have, its about the number you can use. Thats why Engineer rotations before Holosmith were so long

Photon forge and celestial avatar are uncharacteristically strong because they have entry costs and less duration.

Soulbeast/ele/rev can swap their mechanic on cooldown. They get stronger skills than weapon kits, but they have more opportunity costs. This makes each ability comparatively weaker than regular classes'. And comparatively stronger when combined.

• The combined strength is shown in raids. As the opportunity costs to defense can be mostly ignored, allowing for more offensive rotations or camping.
• The individual weakness is shown in PvP where the opportunity costs to defense cannot be ignored. And the speed favours classes that can attack and defend over classes that attack then defend, attack the attack, or defend then defend.

Rather than make them targetable. I wish they would turn them into Traps/Wells/Marks and even then they would be better off just redesigning them as the actual effects for quite a few of them are just plain rubbish :/

Total of People who said no so far: 23Total of People who said yes so far: 10Mate I think you should give it up, even if arena net listened to anything on the forum Outside of Icerazor,Razorclaw and shortbow 2,3&4 Renegade is decent.What I feel would be nice is if Icerazor made our crits apply chill and if Razorclaw apply bleeds and taunt vs opponents.From there change sb 4 to do burn and vulnerability Sb 3 to pierce. Sb 2 can suck so we can say weapon is balanced.And as for the trait to replace the SB trait in Renegade - maybe something like crits vs bleeding targets apply torment.