[Video] State of the game 2012 dev discussion: when meta builds had glaring weaknesses — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Video] State of the game 2012 dev discussion: when meta builds had glaring weaknesses

Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

Note that all people in this video are not more here:

-Sharp left Anet 2-3 years ago
-@Xeph left because he became disillusioned with GW2, he left with a lengthy post on the older forum
-We all know @groucho
-@Lowell , editor and avid engi player also left GW2 some time ago

I specifically like the part where @Jonathan Sharp discuss the necessity of counterplay in game and how the "game" must avoid training wheel systems where new players are handed victories on a silver plate. It basically was a time when we still had balance principles and morals....now all we have is auto-mode spec with multiple safety nets that basically play themselves: new players start to use spec X and they become a sensation over night, no more need to learn what that or that profession does, no need to learn about anything else....outside your meta build rotation.

Your meta build has basically got not readily accessible weakness , not anymore like it was in the past...most people at any skill level can Rambo towards a point knowing that they won't die as easily as they instead should

For example :
warrior used to be weak to condis...they removed completely that weakness while maintaining all the strength
Mesmer used to be way less durable and their clones were prone to easy disposition

So much potential....

Comments

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭

    Good research +1

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2018

    WTB good designed skills, classes and balance for GW2!!!

    Anet added more broken and awfull gameplay so pver'rs could farm titles and climb rank against each other.

    Pver's on spvp = spvp fixed... they dont care about ballance, this is a pve game, so it is a game that needs OP andn broken gimmicks against each other, since badies need them, rather than team play and learn how to gank and spike.

    Every one want their class to carry them like a hero...

    Anet i dont know where or whoom is doing the balance stuff.. but those guys need to wake up cause balance between all gamemodes w/o spliting skils is possible, you guys just need to get good and L2B, basicly stop making the game so easy to get carried with dps, and force players to teamplay, theres to much of everything in this game that the gameplay is horrible.

  • Im agree with this. But easy build still be exist fir new play to learn from it. But easy build should never be near S tier in the meta. Like it is now. I remember back then, when land a hard cc, and this was a big game changer in fight. Now spam cc, dosnt hit use another one. And the stun break, if hit usw one then another then another, and the cd of them isnt helping too. Same goes with condi and condi clense.

  • Why did they leave those principles behind? For quick money? But in the long run the game dies or real diehard fans/pro players move on to something else. Such is life.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2018

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Why did they leave those principles behind? For quick money? But in the long run the game dies or real diehard fans/pro players move on to something else. Such is life.

    We can make safe assumptions :

    1) Casual = whales bring more money
    2) Easy game attracts more whales than hard game

  • Balance is game wide which is why it takes forever to get updates. Its next to impossible to get something as specific as conquest mode correct and seeing as how this is a PVE game its a very low priority.

    They did add a lot of things since that video - ranked solo, pvp seasons, reward tracks, ascended gear which were huge improvements to the casual side. A lot of people thought spvp was pointless as it was so disconnected from the rest of the game.

  • Gw2 has plenty of builds with weaknesses.. they are just not part of the meta. A build in gw2 needs to either be broken (e.g. Firebrand, holosmith), extremely forgiving (e.g. Druid), have very little counterplay apart from guessing/random dodging (e.g. Mirage), or all of this (e.g. Scourge) in order to become part of the meta game.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Note that all people in this video are not more here

    A lot of GW2's OG devs had left or become disillusioned with the project during development and through early launch. Kotaki hated how he was forced to design the Quaggan (calling them "poobag"s). The entire "MMO Manifesto" is brimming with flagrant lies (some of the biggest promises were broken a mere 3 months after launch). Most big-name devs like Hrouda (who really didn't do much during their tenure anyway) had all left by the game's second anniversary. GW2 has been a creativity ghost town since 2010.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -We all know @groucho

    I don't really know why everyone worships this guy when GW2 has never been a game of skillful play throughout its lifetime. The game has always had really long damage immunities that players can chain together, and there have always been loads of teleports which players consistently use to negate the fundamental importance of timing and positioning in any game which attempts to be "competitive." I'm pretty sure that the only thing that grouch did was push for tournaments. Just because a game throws money down a drain for random players to grab, that doesn't mean that that game features skillful play and intuitive design which can be appreciated on a universal level.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I specifically like the part where @Jonathan Sharp discuss the necessity of counterplay in game and how the "game" must avoid training wheel systems where new players are handed victories on a silver plate.

    GW2 has never been anything but a "do what your buttons say you can do" kind of game. Any sort of counterplay has always been some hard-edged, "rock-paper-scissors" table-turner rather than players consistently using sharp timing, positioning and raw movement ability. GW2 is a game devoid of sensible engine physics. All of this "free movement" is wasted on how slow players move with respect to damage and how so many builds consistently teleport to targets or simply walk through field hazards without even batting an eye. At that point, the game might as well just have a fixed, isometric view with locked, directional movement. The movement is worthless in the face of instant-travel, auto-aim damage, invuln/stability, and nstantaneous teleports (all of which have always, always, always dominated GW2 PvP since its inception).

    Yeah, it"s gotten worse, but never, ever try to defend GW2 as being good at any point. It's still hot garbage compared to any other game that actually cares remotely about making an interesting PvP match-up.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Why did they leave those principles behind? For quick money? But in the long run the game dies or real diehard fans/pro players move on to something else. Such is life.

    Devs who cared about pvp left.

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Why did they leave those principles behind? For quick money? But in the long run the game dies or real diehard fans/pro players move on to something else. Such is life.

    We can make safe assumptions :

    1) Casual = whales bring more money
    2) Easy game attracts more whales than hard game

    Sadly this.

    The reality is gullible people are more likely to spend lots of money. There are entire industries on this planet built on the foundation of taking advantage of people with more cash than sense.

    Creating broken ezmode specs is perfect for this. Get a player who is too dense to understand that it's the spec carrying them and make that dense player hooked on the game. A fool and his money are soon parted. Low morals, high profits.

  • Lyger.5429Lyger.5429 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2018

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    I'm pretty sure that the only thing that grouch did was push for tournaments.

    He obviously did more than that, we'd probably still be stuck in the bunker meta of season 1 if he hadn't pushed for some changes. That's besides the point though, you act as if this game has no saving graces. In fact it could have been big in the eSports scene (as big as an MMO could be) if underlying issues had been dealt with quickly.

  • Guizao.4167Guizao.4167 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Note that all people in this video are not more here:

    -Sharp left Anet 2-3 years ago
    -@Xeph left because he became disillusioned with GW2, he left with a lengthy post on the older forum
    -We all know @groucho
    -@Lowell , editor and avid engi player also left GW2 some time ago

    I specifically like the part where @Jonathan Sharp discuss the necessity of counterplay in game and how the "game" must avoid training wheel systems where new players are handed victories on a silver plate. It basically was a time when we still had balance principles and morals....now all we have is auto-mode spec with multiple safety nets that basically play themselves: new players start to use spec X and they become a sensation over night, no more need to learn what that or that profession does, no need to learn about anything else....outside your meta build rotation.

    Your meta build has basically got not readily accessible weakness , not anymore like it was in the past...most people at any skill level can Rambo towards a point knowing that they won't die as easily as they instead should

    For example :
    warrior used to be weak to condis...they removed completely that weakness while maintaining all the strength
    Mesmer used to be way less durable and their clones were prone to easy disposition

    So much potential....

    Keep in mind that back in 2012 some countermeta builds weren't effective and some different builds used to suffer a lot. But that initiative to bring communication to the community where devs were also present is what it's been missing in our game. So much potential, indeed.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2018

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Why did they leave those principles behind? For quick money? But in the long run the game dies or real diehard fans/pro players move on to something else. Such is life.

    Devs who cared about pvp left.

    Sympathy for Robert Hrouda :(
    Players having fun was his priority

    Robert Hrouda, "Today marks the release of the last bit of content I built for ArenaNet. I had always hoped my last hurrah would be an epic dungeon that would stand the test of time, and provide entertainment for players to the very end… but instead it’s an instance that will only persist for two weeks, and then go away.”

    Yet he still continue to fight to be in our best interest until....

    Robert Hrouda, "Hey everyone. Today marks a sad day for me. I've been laid off from ArenaNet, and am now currently unemployed. It was an amazing and wild ride, and I feel I've grown a lot in the last couple years"

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