Make Backstab Unblockable

Backstab should be unblockable its time.

1. it cant be spammed (miss and get on stealth attack cooldown succeed and become revealed)
2. invulns
3. the window of attack is small enough that an enemy dodging or rotating so their back isnt facing the thief is not that hard to predict and achieve.
4. with all the movement in the game combined with the reasons above, its time for BS to ignore blocks.

Things that might be(but might not be) a good idea to fix/nerf in light of the BS change.

1. Reduce the side angles BS registers
2. Fix the bug that lets u shadowshot>backstab while u sort of face forward.

Why don't they just make it unblockable when striking from behind?

Fits thematically, relatively balanced imo

D/P does not need buffs.

Refer to the comment above me. It doesn't need buffs of any kind as d/p is already still the best set available on thief and making more things unblockable is not a good solution for bad design.

@Asur.9178 said:D/P does not need buffs.

yes nerf DP but buff backstab. The world shouldn't revolve around DP either.

Why do you want to backstab when autos are even better

Could just make it so that if you wear 2x daggers your backstab becomes unblockable in order to not buff D/P if that's what you are worried about. Most people use steal backstab combined with basi anyways so it becomes unblockable

What the OP suggests is reasonable considering coming from stealth you wouldn't suspect the attack thus unblockable seems fair.

Simply, why? Do you want to make gimmicky builds like one-shot backstab D/D even more frustrating/annoying to play against? It is already unblockable through Basilisk Venom.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Simply, why? Do you want to make gimmicky builds like one-shot backstab D/D even more frustrating/annoying to play against? It is already unblockable through Basilisk Venom.

To be fair they removed the Backstab gimmick D/D Build no longer stacking 25 Might with Signets on engage which was the whole combo, to get near that damage now you need to Stack malice on the Target first with Deadeye, so they know it’s coming.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Simply, why? Do you want to make gimmicky builds like one-shot backstab D/D even more frustrating/annoying to play against? It is already unblockable through Basilisk Venom.

Backstab still can one-shot or at least do 100-10 if I’m not mistaken. I don’t think we need any more builds like “it can one-shot but it is dodgeable” or “it can one-shot but it dies too quickly so it isn’t OP”. This is just unhealthy gameplay.

Instead of buffing backstab, make CnD relevant - buff off-hand dagger - buff dagger autos. Skills with little to no telegraph are just annoying (e.g. Power Mesmer one shot).

I personally wish they’d revert that stupid 1s cool down on stealth attacks.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Simply, why? Do you want to make gimmicky builds like one-shot backstab D/D even more frustrating/annoying to play against? It is already unblockable through Basilisk Venom.

I agree with some of that, but auto-attacks are already carrying the thiefs damage-output. If you buff it anymore now, you'll have an even greater outrage than Backstab, not to mention how some skills might get pushed into complete redundancy if you do.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Simply, why? Do you want to make gimmicky builds like one-shot backstab D/D even more frustrating/annoying to play against? It is already unblockable through Basilisk Venom.

how is making backstab unblockable even without BV going to create new gimmick builds?intresting tho that you are worried about healthy gameplay and want to buff dagger autos even more :D

and yes i did quite a few oneshots today with backstab - working as intended.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Simply, why? Do you want to make gimmicky builds like one-shot backstab D/D even more frustrating/annoying to play against? It is already unblockable through Basilisk Venom.

The 100-0 only really works on low-health players at the moment like berserker thieves/eles. Given the signet nerfs, damage on dedicated stab builds is down close to 20% from what it was. D/D's stab is actually pretty meh since the setup depends on first landing CnD and gets hard-countered by almost every passive in the game. "Just dodge" isn't even a proper response to the D/D burst build; it's "just react to losing a lot of health on CnD in literally any fashion and you've basically won the fight unless they're just better than you or you're very slow to react/not very good."

Backstab itself is super predictable in the case of D/D because you always know when the stab is coming and can do something about it. You even see the guy coming from a mile away. Few D/D players will wait on BV for the backstab because passives would otherwise deny CnD which then wastes 6 initiative and causes lots of opportunity for the thief to just be killed outright. Sustained stealth from D/P is much harder to deal with. Sustained/ranged stealth is the real culprit on thief/mesmer/ranger/engi burst, because without stealth, these builds are easy to counter.

D/P's backstab is already unblockable with BV since it doesn't depend on a first hit to land to gain stealth like D/D does.

OP's suggestion makes no sense because it can already be done and the D/P Assassin's signet Daredevil build is already over-performing.

They already buffed dagger's AA's to ridiculous extremes in order to keep thief raid-viable; with the massive power-creep from HoT, the thief had lower damage than everyone and no support, so they buffed the AA chain by 30-40% in terms of raw damage numbers. Currently, the thief's AA chain does more damage faster than backstab does just from how long the animation on backstab is. It's just not visible because the thief is stealthed and the damage is frontloaded.

D/D is weak because it lacks tools to deal with the powercreep in the game and comparable skirmishing builds. It doesn't need buffs to backstab or anything crazy to match powercreep, but rather the OP's need toning down. A D/D thief in the simple act of enaging a scourge in melee will lose 50-70% of its max health from just existing in melee range with no way to disengage or interrupt casts/control the fight without some major utility cooldowns burned that would otherwise be necessary later on in the fight. It cannot stealth reset for more than a few seconds and is still then locked in combat range. DB needs a rework to be a proper movement skill, and once done, in conjunction with some nerfs to other professions, the kit ends up well-rounded enough to be deemed usable.

The real problem is the ping-pong of powercreep between professions. We're seeing a trend of damage without animations/tells/cooldowns -> bumped defenses/boons -> More damage to compensate -> More blocks to negate this damage -> more unblockable skills to penetrate -> More immunity effects to negate unblockables.

With objectively more stats running around in the game, the entire game needs a toning down towards core. Asking for things to hard-counter other things which are designed to hard-counter other things just spirals out of control, and only exacerbates the Build Wars 2 game-state like what we have right now.

An unblockable Backstab would make strong builds even stronger (D/P) while doing nothing to improve weak builds (Power D/D - Death Blossom and CnD are the skills that need to be adressed, but not Backstab).

All in all a useless balancing attempt that solves nothing while creating new problems.

I think some of you who oppose a backstab buff wouldn't mind seeing d/d power buffed or tweaked. However I don't want d/d power to play like d/p: I don't think it should be a pecking set like d/p. D/p is all about bobbing in and out taking pecks at your enemy using mobility as its primary advantage. I feel that d/d power's advantage should be in its burst/spike damage but be less mobile. The devs have allowed thieves to be mobile and was an excuse for too long that they are decappers and +1ers. Over the last few years they made thief less of an assassin and more of a mobility acrobatic user. I want to see the usefulness of backstab increase. I want a thief set that has backstab that forces the enemy to consider positional play. IMO thief doesn't even play like a thief/rogue/assassin anymore. the closest set to that was d/d power before the power creep.

Yes it would be nice if #3 or #5 got a change for the better, but I still think backtab will be pretty weak compared to autos and shadow shot. I mean lets be real here, the game is way out of balance but do you think they will tone down other classes with boon and invuln spam to a level that backstab will be more viable? Probably not. I would love to see a full balance overhaul, but I think at this point they are more into micro changes.

As I said earlier, I am not arguing about only D/D here, a Backstab buff will buff D/P too, which is already over-performing (might need some coefficient nerfs tbh).

Instead of buffing backstab, buffing sword autos - buffing offhand dagger - buffing pistol mainhand are far better options to me. Powercreeping an already powerful skill will cause unhealthy gameplay. Buff under-performing skills, not well-performing ones.

Edit : About the dagger autos, I didn’t know about those buffs, it was just an alternative that came into my mind instead of a backstab buff.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:As I said earlier, I am not arguing about only D/D here, a Backstab buff will buff D/P too, which is already over-performing (might need some coefficient nerfs tbh).

Instead of buffing backstab, buffing sword autos - buffing offhand dagger - buffing pistol mainhand are far better options to me. Powercreeping an already powerful skill will cause unhealthy gameplay. Buff under-performing skills, not well-performing ones.

Edit : About the dagger autos, I didn’t know about those buffs, it was just an alternative that came into my mind instead of a backstab buff.

sword autos is also not really a good buff. s/d is currently one of the top specs and their auto is decent used to be main source of damage a while back, tho now with FS being also unblockable this might have changed.

i dont think buffing any autoattack is going to make for healthier gameplay at least in pvp envoirements.

Id rather have cloak and dagger as unblockable and the CD removed from backstab.

@TiNG.3964 said:Id rather have cloak and dagger as unblockable and the CD removed from backstab.

This.

@TiNG.3964 said:Id rather have cloak and dagger as unblockable and the CD removed from backstab.

The stealth would have to be unblockable, not the damage. I can get 5~7k with CnD so making that unblockable is really just asking for CnD spam and not really playing as intended. Backstab should ignore a portion of armor instead of being unblockable, so you don't over explode the squishies but can still do relevant damage to tankier builds(finding the gap in the armor).

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Simply, why? Do you want to make gimmicky builds like one-shot backstab D/D even more frustrating/annoying to play against? It is already unblockable through Basilisk Venom.

This is well said Deceiver.

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:

@TiNG.3964 said:Id rather have cloak and dagger as unblockable and the CD removed from backstab.

CnD has a cast time and costs 6 initiative. There is no such thing as “CnD spam”.

For the armor part, somebody running a squishy build doesn’t mean they don’t have any armor, they still have 1K base toughness. And I am against every buff to Backstab, since it has no tell, and would buff D/P (The most OP Thief build ever) even more.

Sind’s idea, buffing dual-wielding same weapons would be much more better in my opinion.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

CnD has a cast time and costs 6 initiative. There is no such thing as “CnD spam”.

There is no such thing as CnD spam because right now it's pointless, but it is totally possible. You could get 3 off in a row with signet of infiltration regen and steal. And if you take revealed training you'll have 200 power after the first hit on a 1300 base damage unblockable skill.

For the armor part, somebody running a squishy build doesn’t mean they don’t have any armor, they still have 1K base toughness. And I am against every buff to Backstab, since it has no tell, and would buff D/P (The most OP Thief build ever) even more.

The changes I've suggested could be added to a trait for d/d only, but the formula could take place only after a certain amount of armor/toughness.

Sind’s idea, buffing dual-wielding same weapons would be much more better in my opinion.Yes