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A Condition Overhaul (all modes)


Swagg.9236

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As a core PU Mesmer, my current build, ( Osicat's "Napalm Cat",) relies heavily on maintaining conditions via auto attack. My core thief is in a similar place. ( Yes, I own both expansions on my main account and HoT on my alt. ) Removing or heavily nerfing condi application would put many builds pretty much out of the game.

A much better solution for the game generally would be to carry cleanses. The current model seems to be to rely on passive or auto proc defenses and win by dps. That's not a healthy trend in my, ( not very,) humble opinion.

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@Ithilwen.1529 said:Removing or heavily nerfing condi application would put many builds pretty much out of the game.

Oh no, it sounds as if some classes would have to actually be redesigned and players would have to use actively applied damage to have an impact in an encounter. What a world.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:A much better solution for the game generally would be to carry cleanses.

Yes, because everyone should lose out on more interesting skill choices just because two people on the field can effortlessly dump out passive damage which will kill in 5s. The fact that such a combat paradigm exists isn't an issue at all.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:The current model seems to be to rely on passive or auto proc defenses and win by dps. That's not a healthy trend in my, ( not very,) humble opinion.

I COMPLETELY do not understand why you would say something like this when when the first thing you said was "I play condi auto-attack builds." What are you trying to say? That you don't like the way which you yourself play? Despite then saying how everyone should just play around your playstyle anyway (by telling everyone to just take more cleanses)??? What are you even thinking with this statement??

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:
Removing or heavily nerfing condi application would put many builds pretty much out of the game.

Oh no, it sounds as if some classes would have to actually be redesigned and players would have to use actively applied damage to have an impact in an encounter. What a world.

The condition damage I apply is active and single target directed. (Though, admittedly, there is splash.) I have to choose my target and actively keep them under attack over a significant period of time. This contrasts sharply with the "condi bomb."

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:
A much better solution for the game generally would be to carry cleanses.

Yes, because everyone should lose out on more interesting skill choices just because two people on the field can effortlessly dump out passive damage which will kill in 5s. The fact that such a combat paradigm exists isn't an issue at all.

Your "interesting skill choices" need to also include basic active defenses, such as a condi cleanse. Yes, this is a good limit on ultra berserker style play and it should be increased.

I don't "effortlessly" do much of anything in PvP. I challenge you to try a core condi PU Mesmer and come back and contradict me.

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:The current model seems to be to rely on passive or auto proc defenses and win by dps. That's not a healthy trend in my, ( not very,) humble opinion.

I
COMPLETELY
do not understand why you would say something like this when when the first thing you said was "I play condi auto-attack builds." What are you trying to say? That you don't like the way which you yourself play? Despite then saying how everyone should just play around your playstyle anyway (by telling everyone to just take more cleanses)??? What are you even thinking with this statement??

My build relies on an auto attack, yes. To continue that auto attack, I need to actively keep my opponent in my sights and survive. Neither is an easy task in many games. I play a difficult build and typically find myself just surviving around others' heavy automatic defenses and/or damage.

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@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Your "interesting skill choices" need to also include basic active defenses, such as a condi cleanse. Yes, this is a good limit on ultra berserker style play and it should be increased.

This is why the overhaul makes all Healing Skills automatically cleanse all active conditions on the user (if they resolve). Other games (especially team-based RPGs or MMORPGs) typically have a single class that takes care of this sort of thing for the rest of the team, so making something like condition cleansing an arbitrarily distributed resource across the classes was an incredibly short-sighted idea. GW1, for instance, often featured no self-healing or self-condition removal on offensive builds since everyone assumed a healer's presence. Since GW2 is supposed to give everyone the ability to heal themselves (and they do so via the baseline, fixed "Healing Skill" slot), why not also give everyone the ability to effectively cleanse conditions without forcing them into certain skill choices? Where is the condition cleanse skill slot? If that doesn't exist, why doesn't the healing skill do it then? And so, there's the solution: Healing Skills now remove all active conditions upon successful cast. It can be powerful and useful, but also poorly used. Considering how the Shock Stacks work and how Lesions don't really deal that much damage, this Healing Skill feature addition is a clever way to trip up a condition build's flow, but not enough to completely shut them out of doing what their builds are supposed to do.

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I don't "effortlessly" do much of anything in PvP. I challenge you to try a core condi PU Mesmer and come back and contradict me.

Dude, you're autoattacking, passively gaining boons and chaining stealth abilities. I don't understand how anything in video games can be any easier. Just because it isn't necessarily 100% effective at killing a target doesn't mean that it isn't absolutely the easiest thing that anyone can do.

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:My build relies on an auto attack, yes. To continue that auto attack, I need to actively keep my opponent in my sights and survive. Neither is an easy task in many games. I play a difficult build and typically find myself just surviving around others' heavy automatic defenses and/or damage.

Anyone who uses ranged attacks needs to have a selected target in order to strike with any level of consistently. Don't try to tell me that pressing tab or manually selecting a target is difficult. Again, like I said before, just because your build isn't effective against all of the nonsense in PvP doesn't mean that it isn't, from a player-mechanical standpoint, maximum easy-mode. Moreover, how about actually talking about the topic instead of just immediately saying that "This isn't what I play. Everyone should just play around how I want to play," especially considering how the way you play is just dancing around and banking on autoattacks to carry your damage in a game that already aims for you.

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Your "interesting skill choices" need to also include basic active defenses, such as a condi cleanse. Yes, this is a good limit on ultra berserker style play and it should be increased.

This is why the overhaul makes all Healing Skills automatically cleanse all active conditions on the user (if they resolve). Other games (especially team-based RPGs or MMORPGs) typically have a single class that takes care of this sort of thing for the rest of the team, so making something like condition cleansing an arbitrarily distributed resource across the classes was an incredibly short-sighted idea. GW1, for instance, often featured no self-healing or self-condition removal on offensive builds since everyone assumed a healer's presence. Since GW2 is supposed to give everyone the ability to heal themselves (and they do so via the baseline, fixed "Healing Skill" slot), why not also give everyone the ability to effectively cleanse conditions without forcing them into certain skill choices? Where is the condition cleanse skill slot? If that doesn't exist, why doesn't the healing skill do it then? And so, there's the solution: Healing Skills now remove all active conditions upon successful cast. It can be powerful and useful, but also poorly used. Considering how the Shock Stacks work and how Lesions don't really deal that much damage, this Healing Skill feature addition is a clever way to trip up a condition build's flow, but not enough to completely shut them out of doing what their builds are supposed to do.

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I don't "effortlessly" do much of anything in PvP. I challenge you to try a core condi PU Mesmer and come back and contradict me.

Dude, you're autoattacking, passively gaining boons and chaining stealth abilities. I don't understand how anything in video games can be any easier. Just because it isn't necessarily 100% effective at killing a target doesn't mean that it isn't absolutely the easiest thing that anyone can do.

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:My build relies on an auto attack, yes. To continue that auto attack, I need to actively keep my opponent in my sights and survive. Neither is an easy task in many games. I play a difficult build and typically find myself just surviving around others' heavy automatic defenses and/or damage.

Anyone who uses ranged attacks needs to have a selected target in order to strike with any level of consistently. Don't try to tell me that pressing tab or manually selecting a target is difficult. Again, like I said before, just because your build isn't effective against all of the nonsense in PvP doesn't mean that it isn't, from a player-mechanical standpoint, maximum easy-mode. Moreover, how about actually talking about the topic instead of just immediately saying that "This isn't what I play. Everyone should just play around how I want to play," especially considering how the way you play is just dancing around and banking on autoattacks to carry your damage in a game that already aims for you.

I think that calling a core PU Mesmer "maximum easy mode" shows a real lack of understanding. My original point stands, the system proposed here would essentially kill many builds and is not a good fit for this game.

A better solution would be for people to carry and use condi cleanse.

That said: I really like GW1's system and often play a monk. GW2 would be improved by heading in that direction instead of "everyone is a Swiss Army Knife and can do everything."

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@"Ithilwen.1529" said:

My original point stands, the system proposed here would essentially kill many builds and is not a good fit for this game.

Killing the builds that everyone seems to detest in favor of giving a role-less damage type a real playstyle and purpose seems like a pretty decent path forward. When all you do is say "it's not a good fit for this game" and don't give any real reason, that's an opinion; not an argument.

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:

That said: I really like GW1's system and often play a monk. GW2 would be improved by heading in that direction instead of "everyone is a Swiss Army Knife and can do everything."

The purpose of breaking conditions up into unique debuffs and then scattering them across only certain weapons on certain classes is entirely in the interest of keeping things from going full swiss army knife. Conditions now are just regular damage which turns zerk damage into bloat content.

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@Nuka Cola.8520 said:they will never do anything significant because it will kill conditions in pve and anet is all about pve. so stop dreaming, nothing is changing for the decade to come.

That post was less about holding out hope and more about the catharsis of showing how this game could be better despite knowing it never will be good. It's dumb, I know.

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Here's mine.

Tabula rasa

  • Conditions removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Crowd control removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Stability removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Runes and Sigils removed from the game (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Condition cleanse skills removed from the game.
  • Boon corruption removed from the game.
  • Stun Break skills removed from the game.
  • Conditions are now classified into two groups: Damaging Conditions and Debuffs.
  • Crowd control are now classified into two groups: Interrupting and Control Effects.

    Damaging Conditions

  • Damaging conditions include: Burning, Torment, Bleeding and Confusion. Damaging conditions damage scales with Condition Damage and Expertise.
  • Attribute combinations; Power, Condition Damage and Expertise gives the same killing potential as Berserker Amulet; Power, Precision and Ferocity.
  • Resistance is a defensive character attribute. Each attribute point put into resistance increases the condition of the character by one, which improves the character's ability to withstand condition damage.

    Debuffs

  • Debuffs include: Poison, Blind, Chill, Cripple, Immobile, Slow, Weakness and Vulnerability.
  • Debuffs do not stack (besides Vulnerability) and the duration cannot be increased with Expertise Attribute.
  • High mobility classes/specializations have no access to anti mobility debuffs; Cripple, Immobile.
  • High damage dealing classes/specializations have no access to Poison and Vulnerability.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Protection have no access to Weakness.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Blind; Necromancer and Thief.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Chill; Elementalist, Revenant and Reaper.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Slow; Revenant and Chronomancer.

Debuffs List

  • Poison: Heal potency decreased by 66%.
  • Blind: All outgoing attack misses.
  • Chill: Recharge time increased by 33%. Endurance regeneration decreased by 100%.
  • Cripple: Movement speed decreased by 66%. Gap closer range decreased by 33%.
  • Immobile: Unable to move, leap or teleport.
  • Weakness: Outgoing damage decreased by 66%.

Crowd Control

  • Crowd Control do not stack and the duration cannot be increased.
  • Control effects are a set of effects that temporarily prevent actions or movement and disable all skills (include instant cast skills) for the effect's duration. Skills which are interrupted with control effects skills have no cooldown penalty.
  • Interrupting skill prevents a foe from completing its current action. Skills which are interrupted have a 10 second cooldown before they can be cast again.
  • High damage dealing classes/specializations have no access to Control effects.
  • High mobility classes/specializations have no access to Pull.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Interrupting skills: Thief, Mesmer, Elementalist
  • Stability is a boon that protects against Crowd Control and Debuffs attacks, although it does not remove effects that are already in place. Stability do not stack.
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skills examples

Churning Earth: Unleashing a seismic wave that damages and bleeds nearby foes.

Activation Time: 2s, Recharge Time: 30s, Radius: 360, Number of Targets: 5, 12 Bleed: 4s

Grasping Dead: Summon skeletal hands to cripple foes in front of you.

Activation Time: 3/4s, Recharge Time: 10s, Range: 900, Number of Targets: 5, Cripple: 3s

Eviscerate: Leap at your foe with a devastating attack. Effect increases with adrenaline level.

Recharge Time: 8s, Range: 300

Counters: Dodge, Evade, Block, Blind

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@pierwola.9602 said:Here's mine.

Tabula rasa

  • Conditions removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Crowd control removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Stability removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Runes and Sigils removed from the game (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Condition cleanse skills removed from the game.
  • Boon corruption removed from the game.
  • Stun Break skills removed from the game.
  • Conditions are now classified into two groups: Damaging Conditions and Debuffs.
  • Crowd control are now classified into two groups: Interrupting and Control Effects.

    Damaging Conditions

  • Damaging conditions include: Burning, Torment, Bleeding and Confusion. Damaging conditions damage scales with Condition Damage and Expertise.
  • Attribute combinations; Power, Condition Damage and Expertise gives the same killing potential as Berserker Amulet; Power, Precision and Ferocity.
  • Resistance is a defensive character attribute. Each attribute point put into resistance increases the condition of the character by one, which improves the character's ability to withstand condition damage.

    Debuffs

  • Debuffs include: Poison, Blind, Chill, Cripple, Immobile, Slow, Weakness and Vulnerability.
  • Debuffs do not stack (besides Vulnerability) and the duration cannot be increased with Expertise Attribute.
  • High mobility classes/specializations have no access to anti mobility debuffs; Cripple, Immobile.
  • High damage dealing classes/specializations have no access to Poison and Vulnerability.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Protection have no access to Weakness.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Blind; Necromancer and Thief.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Chill; Elementalist, Revenant and Reaper.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Slow; Revenant and Chronomancer.

Debuffs List

  • Poison: Heal potency decreased by 66%.
  • Blind: All outgoing attack misses.
  • Chill: Recharge time increased by 33%. Endurance regeneration decreased by 100%.
  • Cripple: Movement speed decreased by 66%. Gap closer range decreased by 33%.
  • Immobile: Unable to move, leap or teleport.
  • Weakness: Outgoing damage decreased by 66%.

Crowd Control

  • Crowd Control do not stack and the duration cannot be increased.
  • Control effects are a set of effects that temporarily prevent actions or movement and disable all skills (include instant cast skills) for the effect's duration. Skills which are interrupted with control effects skills have no cooldown penalty.
  • Interrupting skill prevents a foe from completing its current action. Skills which are interrupted have a 10 second cooldown before they can be cast again.
  • High damage dealing classes/specializations have no access to Control effects.
  • High mobility classes/specializations have no access to Pull.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Interrupting skills: Thief, Mesmer, Elementalist
  • Stability is a boon that protects against Crowd Control and Debuffs attacks, although it does not remove effects that are already in place. Stability do not stack.

I like this one more than OP's.

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Do all that and then watch as the forums get filled once more with "nerf power" threads.You are never going to be pleased with any change whatsoever, Anet nerfed condition bursting which gives you plenty of time to deal with condis either by cleaning them or avoiding their effects ie. players running with 15 stacks of torment or using skills with 20 stacks of confusion, one of the most fun things I notice as Mirage is how often people die by spaming their skills, then you meet those few players that actually know what they are doing and I seem like I am doing no dmg at all forcing me to avoid them since almost the entirety of my dps comes from confusion.

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@"MikeL.8260" said:Do all that and then watch as the forums get filled once more with "nerf power" threads.You are never going to be pleased with any change whatsoever, Anet nerfed condition bursting which gives you plenty of time to deal with condis either by cleaning them or avoiding their effects ie. players running with 15 stacks of torment or using skills with 20 stacks of confusion, one of the most fun things I notice as Mirage is how often people die by spaming their skills, then you meet those few players that actually know what they are doing and I seem like I am doing no dmg at all forcing me to avoid them since almost the entirety of my dps comes from confusion.

There wouldn't be any reason to say "Nerf power" because the only damage in the game would just be "damage." There would be no false distinction made between condition and "power" damage. They already function as effectively the same thing; these changes just properly merge them in order to remove excess bloat from the game. "Knowing what to do" when a player dumps 30 stacks of conditions onto you isn't something that is earned, skillful knowledge. Using a condition cleanse (which are often instant or passive abilities) when covered in conditions is about as mentally engaging as taking your hand off of a hot stove top. There is no thought in that process. The only thoughts about enemy builds are given before a match even starts, and they go something along the lines of: "How much do I want to cripple my damage personal mobility or damage output in order to better hard counter someone who is going to press a bunch of buttons for free from range?" There is no skillful gameplay on either side of that exchange.

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@pierwola.9602 said:Here's mine.

Tabula rasa

  • Conditions removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Crowd control removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Stability removed from all weapons, utility skills and traits (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Runes and Sigils removed from the game (to be potentially re-instated later).
  • Condition cleanse skills removed from the game.
  • Boon corruption removed from the game.
  • Stun Break skills removed from the game.
  • Conditions are now classified into two groups: Damaging Conditions and Debuffs.
  • Crowd control are now classified into two groups: Interrupting and Control Effects.

    Damaging Conditions

  • Damaging conditions include: Burning, Torment, Bleeding and Confusion. Damaging conditions damage scales with Condition Damage and Expertise.
  • Attribute combinations; Power, Condition Damage and Expertise gives the same killing potential as Berserker Amulet; Power, Precision and Ferocity.
  • Resistance is a defensive character attribute. Each attribute point put into resistance increases the condition of the character by one, which improves the character's ability to withstand condition damage.

    Debuffs

  • Debuffs include: Poison, Blind, Chill, Cripple, Immobile, Slow, Weakness and Vulnerability.
  • Debuffs do not stack (besides Vulnerability) and the duration cannot be increased with Expertise Attribute.
  • High mobility classes/specializations have no access to anti mobility debuffs; Cripple, Immobile.
  • High damage dealing classes/specializations have no access to Poison and Vulnerability.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Protection have no access to Weakness.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Blind; Necromancer and Thief.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Chill; Elementalist, Revenant and Reaper.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Slow; Revenant and Chronomancer.

Debuffs List

  • Poison: Heal potency decreased by 66%.
  • Blind: All outgoing attack misses.
  • Chill: Recharge time increased by 33%. Endurance regeneration decreased by 100%.
  • Cripple: Movement speed decreased by 66%. Gap closer range decreased by 33%.
  • Immobile: Unable to move, leap or teleport.
  • Weakness: Outgoing damage decreased by 66%.

Crowd Control

  • Crowd Control do not stack and the duration cannot be increased.
  • Control effects are a set of effects that temporarily prevent actions or movement and disable all skills (include instant cast skills) for the effect's duration. Skills which are interrupted with control effects skills have no cooldown penalty.
  • Interrupting skill prevents a foe from completing its current action. Skills which are interrupted have a 10 second cooldown before they can be cast again.
  • High damage dealing classes/specializations have no access to Control effects.
  • High mobility classes/specializations have no access to Pull.
  • Classes/Specializations with access to Interrupting skills: Thief, Mesmer, Elementalist
  • Stability is a boon that protects against Crowd Control and Debuffs attacks, although it does not remove effects that are already in place. Stability do not stack.

I really like this ( a dedicated thread in order to gather views/comments and let ANET see it would be nice ).Just one extra

  • Confusion dmg on skill use drastically incrased
  • Confusion dmg removed from AA.
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Although just relatively new player, I would vote for condition/boon rework. The situation here is nowhere near as bad as in the game I played previously, but IMO it should be improved instead of letting it go worse.

How I feel the current situation is that the game is going towards mass boon & cond & cond removal spamming. As most removal tools just extract few "random" conditions on you and in fights your condi bar is filled to top, I see people striving for mass cleansing tools. I personally think that this "mass everything" road does not lead to any good.

I would strive to more situational use of boons & conditions: you have a special skills to place conditions, and you use it intelligently for good. The same would of course apply to boons. You would time weakness to target when people are ready to burst, you would time protection to target when s/he is about to receive a burst, and so on. I would decrease the number of different conditions, and I could try to make more intelligent cond removal tools to get rid from the one you really need. For every action, there should be viable reaction.

I could go even that far, that there is no condition damage at all: you put conditions to either make the target more vulnerable to damage, or to decrease the amount of damage the target can do, but any damage would be done by active, direct attacks anyways. If there is really need for delayed damage (damage over time) pressure, I would make it single condition: you have bleed on you, and you loose your health if you don't take it off.

Because of all this, I basically like the both suggestions in this thread.

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I'd be happy if they even just took pvp and wvw and changed condi to pre- freestacking function. Condi builds actually had to be able to sustain in a fight because condi took longer to kill. Once freestacking was a thing all that went out the window.

Edit: Agree that condi should be removed from passive procs and condition on autos should be looked into.

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